Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Yup, if the member of staff was trained to know what would be acceptable or not, the whole sorry affair would have never occurred.

Of the rights enshrined in the Human Rights act, the right to follow a religion should take least preference. After all, it is a choice to follow a particular religion and not an inherent part of who you are.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

It absolutely is not.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

I could have put that better. I agree that it is only if the product is sold, it should be at the price advertised.

---------- Post added at 19:21 ---------- Previous post was at 19:18 ----------

...And lose the goodwill (and sales) to a whole section of the community.

I certainly wouldn't go there with such an opinionated person running the shop. He deserves to go bust.

There is this old saying about the customer always being right.

Unless you happen to be a religious zealot, no doubt!:D

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Depends on how many of that 'community' use the shop. I suspect few if any so I can't see the bakers being too bothered.

At the end of the day they stood up for what they believe in and should be commended. They have nothing against the customer, only what he was trying to say.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

I agree 100%.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Spot on. Basic contract law. Legally, the buyer is offering to pay for the product. The shop accepts the offer and provides the good. If the potential buyer doesn't offer the required price, the shop can decline the customer's offer.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Of all the posts I’ve seen on this forum that thoroughly misunderstand religious faith, this is probably the most succinct.

Faith isn’t a simple matter of choice; for many people, especially those from minority communities, following a religion is very much part of their community, and therefore their personal identity - the deep connection between the two is frequently misunderstood by Westerners.

For those who “choose” a religion outside of their upbringing there is often profound change in their way of living caused by the emergence of deep personal convictions. To even attempt to make a hierarchy of rights as you’re trying to do doesn’t just misunderstand what faith is, it’s just a bit ... well, crass. Sorry.

Also please don’t forget that London isn’t a typical world city and Western European democracies aren’t typical of human community the world over. The idea that religion is a personal bolt-on to be afforded minimal regard is a peculiarly modern, Western idea with very little analog in the present or the past.

And ... finally ... also bear in mind that that well-known religious zealot, Peter Tatchell, has supported the Ashers’ case from the outset. As a human rights campaigner of many years experience he’s well aware that you can’t pick and choose who gets to exercise their conscience and who doesn’t. Societies that try to legislate for that do tend to get it horribly wrong.

Thankfully, in this case, the Supreme Court has ruled that this is not what we have legislated for and the Ashers - and everyone else - remain free to choose, whether to personally or via business, what political or social causes to endorse. You don’t have to like what they believe but you do have to respect their right to believe it.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Thankfully - the Supreme Court disagrees with you.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

If people were prevented from following a particular religion, I would be up there protesting. Whilst that belief for some may be indoctrinated from birth and sincerely held, as an adult, there is always the choice to act as your humanity dictates rather than as a book dictates.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Again ... missing the point by a country mile. Humanity dictates vs. Book dictates is trite, and not a choice anyone with a deeply held, sincere faith would recognise. I don’t know whether you were brought up without a faith or whether you’ve rejected one somewhere along the way, but your understanding of faith appears to be based on casually-held parodies. If that’s the case it’s unsurprising that this judgment has surprised you - our law and our most senior judges still have a more rounded and dare I say mature understanding of how faith works in individuals and communities, hence the result the Ashers won this week (which, IMO, was never in doubt once the case reached the Supreme Court - the law simply doesn’t legislate against moral objections to political causes, no matter how worthy you think those causes are).

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

Few people who seek to discriminate against such groups would be so blatant, what usually happens is that it's done much more subtly.

In one of the cases that I won regarding a company discriminating against me on the grounds of my disability the judge considered not only what was said, but their tone, actions and a threat to refuse to continue to provide service to me because I had made a complaint about one particular member of staff whose behaviour was subsequently deemed to be harrassment.

Comparisons were also made to the way in which similar situations were dealt with compared to mine.

This is the case where the settlement enabled me to offer financial assistance to charities nominated by forum members.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

I just realised a long time ago there is no god.

However, I understand many people need that belief and the fellowship they get from religion. Having deeply and sincerely held views.

What I do not agree with, is the use of that religious belief to treat people differently or less favourably. Societal expectations are just as bad, with such as a caste system holding people unfairly as somehow lesser.

The idea that people who love one another should not be allowed to legally marry based on a book, or campaign to have that marriage accepted when it genuinely harms no one, I have great difficulty with.

The use of belief as reason to treat someone less favourably because of a political view, whilst agreed by the Supreme Court, also feels morally wrong.

In this case tit for tat has already started.

Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 

I know what I said, Seph, and I should have made it clear that this applies only if the item is actually sold. Hopefully, that clarifies my clarification.

:p: