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-   -   Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS? (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33611570)

Kymmy 04-10-2008 08:14
Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 
Probably no-one as I presume that VM would at least check that the IP/MAC and UBR all tie up with the customers records before they give out information, otherwise they're in breach of thier own privacy rules even if there is a court order

yorkshireborn 04-10-2008 08:31
Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 
i had this happen well over a year ago when i was with AOL i got letter from them asking for nearly £600 i wrote on back of letter in a big red marker to **** **f and posted it back.

never heard anything else about it to this day.

Sirius 04-10-2008 08:49
Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 34647432)
Probably no-one as I presume that VM would at least check that the IP/MAC and UBR all tie up with the customers records before they give out information, otherwise they're in breach of thier own privacy rules even if there is a court order
You would hope so, However i would not trust them to do that and would push for that information.

ikthius 04-10-2008 09:36
Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 
can you buy this game in the shops? or is it only available by the net?

who cares, I would not trust any letter that started dear sir/madame

photodude 04-10-2008 10:20
Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 
I had a battle with microsoft a while ago over breaching their copyrights and intellectual property rights, by selling their stuff on Ebay (100's of their CD's). They went to town on me with threats of court action etc and fines in the thousands. Everybody told me to drop it, as they were the "big boys" and knew what they were doing. But who won at the end of the day?????????
ME
And I've had god knows how many sellers asking me how I can sell these without Ebay removing them, or MS Vero UK fining me. It's simple really, learn your rights, and then use them.
Quote:
Dear Mr XXXXXXX
Thank you for the additional information you provided regarding your eBay auctions, in which you were offering HP restore media. After further review, we have contacted eBay and notified them that Microsoft has no objection to the reinstatement of your auctions. Thank you very much for your patience and cooperation throughout the resolution of this matter. We apologize for any inconvenience that may have been caused by the suspension of your auction.

Sincerely,

Scott
MS UK NetSafe Team
Yep, that's Microsoft apologising to some little man in west Yorkshire, because they thought they were better than me :D.

Do your homework on the subjects needed to defend yourself. You need exact details on exactly how you have breached copyrights. Unless you have directly uploaded this whole game (or what ever) to one or more persons, you have not distributed the whole game, just a small portion of it in the form of a data packet. They also need to prove who you have distributed it to, in the form of actual people (not just other IP's). As it's a civil case, the weight of proof needed for them to win isn't as high as that needed in a criminal court. BUT there still has to be proof of physical distribution of the whole game, for them to lay claim to you distributing their product (that means the whole game). The exception is if their claim states "a whole or part" of their copyrights protected material. Then they would need to show what parts you distributed, or how much of their data you sent over. You see, some parts of their product will not be covered by copyrights, and that may have been the part distributed in your data packets.
Example: This forum software is covered by copyrights, but some of the codes (php html etc) used in it's layouts etc are not. It's only when you copy the whole software package, that you then breach copyrights.

Think about it. Have you uploaded the whole game to one or more persons, or just little bit's of it to many ;) :angel:

PS: They also need to prove that you and the person downloading it from you, did not have a genuine copy of said product.

Sirius 04-10-2008 10:23
Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by photodude (Post 34647475)
I had a battle with microsoft a while ago over breaching their copyrights and intellectual property rights, by selling their stuff on Ebay (100's of their CD's). They went to town on me with threats of court action etc and fines in the thousands. Everybody told me to drop it, as they were the "big boys" and knew what they were doing. But who won at the end of the day?????????
ME
And I've had god knows how many sellers asking me how I can sell these without Ebay removing them, or MS Vero UK fining me. It's simple really, learn your rights, and then use them.

Yep, that's Microsoft apologising to some little man in west Yorkshire, because they thought they were better than me :D.

Do your homework on the subjects needed to defend yourself. You need exact details on exactly how you have breached copyrights. Unless you have directly uploaded this whole game (or what ever) to one or more persons, you have not distributed the whole game, just a small portion of it in the form of a data packet. They also need to prove who you have distributed it to, in the form of actual people (not just other IP's). As it's a civil case, the weight of proof needed for them to win isn't as high as that needed in a criminal court. BUT there still has to be proof of physical distribution of the whole game, for them to lay claim to you distributing their product (that means the whole game). The exception is if their claim states "a whole or part" of their copyrights protected material. Then they would need to show what parts you distributed, or how much of their data you sent over. You see, some parts of their product will not be covered by copyrights, and that may have been the part distributed in your data packets.
Example: This forum software is covered by copyrights, but some of the codes (php html etc) used in it's layouts etc are not. It's only when you copy the whole software package, that you then breach copyrights.

Think about it. Have you uploaded the whole game to one or more persons, or just little bit's of it to many ;) :angel:
good info

Noob91 04-10-2008 10:55
Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by whydoIneedatech (Post 34647029)
They kind of cover your obligation here with regards securing your network


http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html...ble/terms.html

Terms and conditions for your residential customer service agreement

D Using our services

You agree to take responsibility for all liabilities, claims and losses which are in any way connected with misusing the services supplied to you under this agreement, or with getting our services without our permission, and to fully repay us if we suffer any costs or losses of this kind. This also applies if you do not meet your responsibilities under this section D.

Fairly clear and points the finger directly at the customer.
Sorry if I'm repeating myself, but that's between you/me and Virgin Media.

A third party is not privy to the contract, there's a doctrine in contract law, 'privity' of contract which means 3rd parties cannot be binded by contractual obligations or benefit from them. I know there was a Contract Rights of Third Parties Act but that won't affect this situation. VM's contract has 0 to do with legal liabilities for you, it only saves their asses if you get sued.

It's been ages since I've opened a contract law text book, was like 5 years ago now. A couple years ago I am pretty sure I remember reading a case about an internet cafe that gave the option for burning downloaded files onto CD, that was very relevant to all this. So if anyone wants to look that up... Again I think the common carrier provision may apply to leaving a wireless network open, because you are, de facto, a service provider. Check this post out

I wrote something at uni about cliaments not being able to prove P2P file sharing causation as it won't satisfy the balance of probabitlies test, much like asbestos poisoning since P2P is a chunk based system, unlike FTP. Since each defendent only harmed the D partially, you cannot satisfy the test of causation which requires >50% ('all or nothing', 'winner takes all' it's called) unless courts invent law to support your case. I can see the justice in people dying of black lung in making up laws, but not in copyright infringement lol

And it's a joke to say you're gulity in a civil case, as a poster above said it's a balance of probabilities test. In most cases if you don't have many assets it is worth taking any company to court. Firstly they will be worried they wont cover costs, since if you have no assets they have nothing to take.

And also it doesn't take years of training to understand a narrow area of the law, infact it takes maybe a couple months. So you can become an expert in a short period of time, so its worth knowing your rights, researching and engaging in a legal argument with the people trying to sue you. They will try and drown you in legal jargon but in reality the only thing they normally have is a ton of muscle (money) and little else.

photodude 04-10-2008 13:35
Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noob91 (Post 34647496)
And also it doesn't take years of training to understand a narrow area of the law, infact it takes maybe a couple months. So you can become an expert in a short period of time, so its worth knowing your rights, researching and engaging in a legal argument with the people trying to sue you. They will try and drown you in legal jargon but in reality the only thing they normally have is a ton of muscle (money) and little else.
That's exactly what I did with my battle with Microsoft. They came at me with all kinds of legal crap, so I looked it up, and threw it back at them 10 fold :D The internet is a great tool, so make use of it. If there is a loop-hole or way around things, someone has usually posted it on the net somewhere;)

cook1984 05-10-2008 00:52
Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 34647425)
I think that's the major problem here is that the letters are very light on information as to how they've got the IP's and yes the UK does need a court case where the defendant actually shows up and defends themselves thus all the evidence will have to be shown..
Someone must already have this info, because in order for it to go to court all parties need to be provided with copies of all the evidence. Even if you don't turn up, they would have to send you the evidence in the post if they want to go to court.

whydoIneedatech 05-10-2008 09:37
Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noob91 (Post 34647496)
Sorry if I'm repeating myself, but that's between you/me and Virgin Media.

A third party is not privy to the contract, there's a doctrine in contract law, 'privity' of contract which means 3rd parties cannot be binded by contractual obligations or benefit from them. I know there was a Contract Rights of Third Parties Act but that won't affect this situation. VM's contract has 0 to do with legal liabilities for you, it only saves their asses if you get sued.

It's been ages since I've opened a contract law text book, was like 5 years ago now. A couple years ago I am pretty sure I remember reading a case about an internet cafe that gave the option for burning downloaded files onto CD, that was very relevant to all this. So if anyone wants to look that up... Again I think the common carrier provision may apply to leaving a wireless network open, because you are, de facto, a service provider. Check this post out

I wrote something at uni about cliaments not being able to prove P2P file sharing causation as it won't satisfy the balance of probabitlies test, much like asbestos poisoning since P2P is a chunk based system, unlike FTP. Since each defendent only harmed the D partially, you cannot satisfy the test of causation which requires >50% ('all or nothing', 'winner takes all' it's called) unless courts invent law to support your case. I can see the justice in people dying of black lung in making up laws, but not in copyright infringement lol

And it's a joke to say you're gulity in a civil case, as a poster above said it's a balance of probabilities test. In most cases if you don't have many assets it is worth taking any company to court. Firstly they will be worried they wont cover costs, since if you have no assets they have nothing to take.

And also it doesn't take years of training to understand a narrow area of the law, infact it takes maybe a couple months. So you can become an expert in a short period of time, so its worth knowing your rights, researching and engaging in a legal argument with the people trying to sue you. They will try and drown you in legal jargon but in reality the only thing they normally have is a ton of muscle (money) and little else.
I did say guilty was wrong as its actually liability as Kymmy said so read my next post where I agreed, and do remember it is up to you to prove your not liable to the Judge, much harder with evidence showing what came through your connection in front of the Judge on paper.

Also remember I was on about protecting a Wireless connection, if you do not do so and your neighbour hammers your connection and you are prosecuted, the blame still lies with you because the body of proof such as download records are only showing your records.

Kymmy 05-10-2008 09:49
Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cook1984 (Post 34647901)
Someone must already have this info, because in order for it to go to court all parties need to be provided with copies of all the evidence. Even if you don't turn up, they would have to send you the evidence in the post if they want to go to court.
Are court records of evidence publicly available?? If so then that evidence should be attainable

Noob91 05-10-2008 09:50
Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by photodude (Post 34647549)
That's exactly what I did with my battle with Microsoft. They came at me with all kinds of legal crap, so I looked it up, and threw it back at them 10 fold :D The internet is a great tool, so make use of it. If there is a loop-hole or way around things, someone has usually posted it on the net somewhere;)
Exactly. It's also why tools like Westlaw and Lexis need to be free. It's amazing how you have to actually pay to get access to the laws that govern you! But if anyone is going to battle this and wants good info just get in contact with someone at a uni, they can then provide you with their proxy/athens details and you'll get access to all sorts of online legal resources like journals where this sort of stuff is discussed but isn't available though google searches.

cookie_365 05-10-2008 10:43
Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noob91 (Post 34647942)
Exactly. It's also why tools like Westlaw and Lexis need to be free. It's amazing how you have to actually pay to get access to the laws that govern you! But if anyone is going to battle this and wants good info just get in contact with someone at a uni, they can then provide you with their proxy/athens details and you'll get access to all sorts of online legal resources like journals where this sort of stuff is discussed but isn't available though google searches.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/legislation/a...egislation.htm

Noob91 05-10-2008 14:30
Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 
Statutes are virtually useless without case law to interpret them or analysis if it hasn't been tested though. Those things aren't available for free.

shawty 05-10-2008 14:48
Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by photodude (Post 34647475)
I had a battle with microsoft a while ago over breaching their copyrights and intellectual property rights, by selling their stuff on Ebay (100's of their CD's). They went to town on me with threats of court action etc and fines in the thousands. Everybody told me to drop it, as they were the "big boys" and knew what they were doing. But who won at the end of the day?????????
ME
And I've had god knows how many sellers asking me how I can sell these without Ebay removing them, or MS Vero UK fining me. It's simple really, learn your rights, and then use them.

Yep, that's Microsoft apologising to some little man in west Yorkshire, because they thought they were better than me :D.

Do your homework on the subjects needed to defend yourself. You need exact details on exactly how you have breached copyrights. Unless you have directly uploaded this whole game (or what ever) to one or more persons, you have not distributed the whole game, just a small portion of it in the form of a data packet. They also need to prove who you have distributed it to, in the form of actual people (not just other IP's). As it's a civil case, the weight of proof needed for them to win isn't as high as that needed in a criminal court. BUT there still has to be proof of physical distribution of the whole game, for them to lay claim to you distributing their product (that means the whole game). The exception is if their claim states "a whole or part" of their copyrights protected material. Then they would need to show what parts you distributed, or how much of their data you sent over. You see, some parts of their product will not be covered by copyrights, and that may have been the part distributed in your data packets.
Example: This forum software is covered by copyrights, but some of the codes (php html etc) used in it's layouts etc are not. It's only when you copy the whole software package, that you then breach copyrights.

Think about it. Have you uploaded the whole game to one or more persons, or just little bit's of it to many ;) :angel:

PS: They also need to prove that you and the person downloading it from you, did not have a genuine copy of said product.
Would you like someone copying your software and uploading to verious download sites for other people to download for free?


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