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-   -   Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33712196)

Sephiroth 27-11-2023 15:46
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36165156)
Some of your posts on this thread have been quite considered, Seph, but this seems distinctly at odds with them. Emotion seems to have taken precedence over analysis.

Whilst the 7 October terrorist attacks were barbarous, this did not logically mean Israel had to respond in a way that left 13,000 people dead. They responded in this way to try and save Netanyahu's power and not for the long-term benefit of the people of Israel.
Not at all, Andrew. I don't do emotion in the Forum.

The @Ian was very specific. He comes across in his posts as far less considered than you. The civilian death toll in this war is really regrettable. But Ian makes little or no allowance for the murderous attack by Hamas on 7-October. He has no realistic answer for how Israel should have reacted to the Hamas attack.

It is no good going back into history as to how Israel could have behaved in the past so as to avoid finding itself in its current position. Ian (and others) ignore the role of Iran in callously stirring this up. Ian ignores the barbarity of Hamas as being central to Israel's response.

As regards the second piece I've highlighted, what response by Israel would have been 'logical'? One could be 100% certain that Israel would provide an iron fist response to the Hamas attack and what is more, Iran and Hamas would have known that. Remember, those zealots believe in virgins in heaven.

As regards Netanyahu, who obviously wants to stay in power- the Ultras may well keep him there till the next GE just to keep their slice of power. Because of the Ultras, I can't help feeling that there is more grief to come for Israel. The Ultras' settlement programme in the West Bank pretty much guarantees that no political settlement is possible.

Shit creek, nix paddle and bigger shit to come.

ianch99 27-11-2023 17:09
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36165151)
@Ian

I note that you don't mention the extreme barbarity of the Hamas attack on Israel/ Ergo, Israel had to respond and go in hard.
Seph, I have already mentioned that Hamas is a murderous death cult and needs removing a few times in this thread. How many times do you need?

However, I do not agree that the nature of how a civilian is killed demands a different, disproportionate response.

Sephiroth 27-11-2023 17:11
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36165168)
Seph, I have already mentioned that Hamas is a murderous death cult and needs removing a few times in this thread. How many times do you need?

However, I do not agree that the nature of how a civilian is killed demands a different, disproportionate response.
If Hamas 'needs removing', how do you propose that should be done?

ianch99 27-11-2023 17:21
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36165160)
Not at all, Andrew. I don't do emotion in the Forum.

The @Ian was very specific. He comes across in his posts as far less considered than you. The civilian death toll in this war is really regrettable. But Ian makes little or no allowance for the murderous attack by Hamas on 7-October. He has no realistic answer for how Israel should have reacted to the Hamas attack.

It is no good going back into history as to how Israel could have behaved in the past so as to avoid finding itself in its current position. Ian (and others) ignore the role of Iran in callously stirring this up. Ian ignores the barbarity of Hamas as being central to Israel's response.

As regards the second piece I've highlighted, what response by Israel would have been 'logical'? One could be 100% certain that Israel would provide an iron fist response to the Hamas attack and what is more, Iran and Hamas would have known that. Remember, those zealots believe in virgins in heaven.

As regards Netanyahu, who obviously wants to stay in power- the Ultras may well keep him there till the next GE just to keep their slice of power. Because of the Ultras, I can't help feeling that there is more grief to come for Israel. The Ultras' settlement programme in the West Bank pretty much guarantees that no political settlement is possible.

Shit creek, nix paddle and bigger shit to come.
Seph, you "regret" the civilian death toll yet you sanction it? BTW, I am ignoring nothing here: you believe it seems that the "barbarity of Hamas" validates the killing of 1000's of children and the destruction of whole swathes of urban Gaza. I do not.

I agree with you regards the Ultra Zionists. They are the real issue here. If they, and Likud, could be side-lined and a more centralist government elected in Israel, there could be a process where the 2 State solution aligned with the Pre-1967 war borders, could be resurrected. Only by sponsoring the moderate Palestinians and delivering a Palestinian state, can extremists like Hamas finally be neutralised.

As you say, the biggest obstacle to this are the hard-line minorities in Israel, religious and otherwise.

Sephiroth 27-11-2023 18:00
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36165172)
Seph, you "regret" the civilian death toll yet you sanction it? BTW, I am ignoring nothing here: you believe it seems that the "barbarity of Hamas" validates the killing of 1000's of children and the destruction of whole swathes of urban Gaza. I do not.

I agree with you regards the Ultra Zionists. They are the real issue here. If they, and Likud, could be side-lined and a more centralist government elected in Israel, there could be a process where the 2 State solution aligned with the Pre-1967 war borders, could be resurrected. Only by sponsoring the moderate Palestinians and delivering a Palestinian state, can extremists like Hamas finally be neutralised.

As you say, the biggest obstacle to this are the hard-line minorities in Israel, religious and otherwise.

Quote:
Seph, you "regret" the civilian death toll yet you sanction it? BTW, I am ignoring nothing here: you believe it seems that the "barbarity of Hamas" validates the killing of 1000's of children and the destruction of whole swathes of urban Gaza. I do not.
I sanction nothing. I merely accept that Israel had to engage in war with Hamas in order to eliminate those barbarians.

The rest of paragraph is meaningless rhetoric. It goes nowhere, proposes no course of action that Israel should have taken and concurs with my regret that Palestinian civilians have died in large numbers.

Come on - propose something positive and doable on Israel's part.

Hugh 27-11-2023 18:28
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36165178)



I sanction nothing. I merely accept that Israel had to engage in war with Hamas in order to eliminate those barbarians.

The rest of paragraph is meaningless rhetoric. It goes nowhere, proposes no course of action that Israel should have taken and concurs with my regret that Palestinian civilians have died in large numbers.

Come on - propose something positive and doable on Israel's part.
I’m sure he’ll do that just after you propose something positive and doable about how Israel can defeat Hamas without killing thousands of women and children…

Sephiroth 27-11-2023 18:50
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36165180)
I’m sure he’ll do that just after you propose something positive and doable about how Israel can defeat Hamas without killing thousands of women and children…
Another piece of worthless rhetoric on your part. I';ve already explained that war is war and collects collateral damage (loss of life).

Pierre 27-11-2023 19:30
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36165172)
there could be a process where the 2 State solution
Been tried several times and both sides don’t want it.

1andrew1 27-11-2023 19:32
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165183)
Been tried several times and both sides don’t want it.
They both can't have one state from the river to the sea though. Two states is the only solution which will give both countries peace...regardless of the extremists in power at the moment.

Sephiroth 27-11-2023 19:50
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36165184)
They both can't have one state from the river to the sea though. Two states is the only solution which will give both countries peace...regardless of the extremists in power at the moment.

But how is that possible? How will that be done? Let's say that the Ultras are no longer in coalition power. But their settlements are still in the West Bank. Are we going to see a blue-on-blue situation to remove them?

Then, as in many Islamic countries, will the extremists in Palestine take political power and carry on with the Terrorism? How will Israel ensure that the 2-state solution avoids these pitfalls?

Hamas and, I suggest Hizbollah must be convincingly defeated. But then there's Iran.

So it's pointless spouting this 2-state solution stuff. Israel will be fighting them for a long time because there is no 2-state solution available.

jfman 27-11-2023 19:54
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36165151)
@Ian

I note that you don't mention the extreme barbarity of the Hamas attack on Israel/ Ergo, Israel had to respond and go in hard.
Hard on the civilian population?

Pierre 27-11-2023 20:36
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36165184)
They both can't have one state from the river to the sea though.
No shit,


Quote:
Two states is the only solution which will give both countries peace...regardless of the extremists in power at the moment.
That’s very, very naive.

Gaza was effectively a Palestinian state.

So let’s say there was an official Palestinian state either side of Israel formed from Gaza and the West Bank, and that Palestinian state elected an extreme Islamic jihadist party to govern them.

Then, that legitimate Palestinian state declared war on Israel, and undertook a military incursion into Israel killing thousands of Jews.

How is that any different to now.

If, in that theoretical scenario, Israel retaliated against that legitimate Palestinian state and flattened it, would you, Ian and JFman still condemn Israel for defending itself?

Giving Palestinians a state, would not give Israelis peace…..from the river to the sea negates the existence of Israel. Giving Palestinians a state wouldn’t change anything.

1andrew1 27-11-2023 20:40
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36165188)

But how is that possible? How will that be done? Let's say that the Ultras are no longer in coalition power. But their settlements are still in the West Bank. Are we going to see a blue-on-blue situation to remove them?
If a family has settled illegally in another country then they know there's always a chance they'll be kicked out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36165188)
Then, as in many Islamic countries, will the extremists in Palestine take political power and carry on with the Terrorism? How will Israel ensure that the 2-state solution avoids these pitfalls?
Most Islamic countries are not like Iran, that's an extreme situation there. A strong well-funded Palestinian regime is needed. At the moment, Israel collects taxes in the West Bank but is not sending them to the Palestinian Authority there so it has no authority and can't defend its citizens against the settlers. That needs to end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36165188)
Hamas and, I suggest Hizbollah must be convincingly defeated. But then there's Iran.

So it's pointless spouting this 2-state solution stuff. Israel will be fighting them for a long time because there is no 2-state solution available.
It's more possible than a single-state solution and must be pursued so both countries can exist peacefully. The alternative is more unnecessary deaths in both countries.

jfman 27-11-2023 20:46
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165193)
No shit,

That’s very, very naive.

Gaza was effectively a Palestinian state.

So let’s say there was an official Palestinian state either side of Israel formed from Gaza and the West Bank, and that Palestinian state elected an extreme Islamic jihadist party to govern them.

Then, that legitimate Palestinian state declared war on Israel, and undertook a military incursion into Israel killing thousands of Jews.

How is that any different to now.

If, in that theoretical scenario, Israel retaliated against that legitimate Palestinian state and flattened it, would you, Ian and JFman still condemn Israel for defending itself?

Giving Palestinians a state, would not give Israelis peace…..from the river to the sea negates the existence of Israel. Giving Palestinians a state wouldn’t change anything.
The difference would be that Palestinians would genuinely be complicit in bringing around a state of war (if this hypothetical Palestine declared war on Israel). As it stands it hasn’t, and there isn’t one.

Terrorists carried out an act and Palestinian civilians are paying the price of the retaliation.

There’s no evidence Palestinians would vote for such a war, although nobody could rule out Israeli interference just as they were complicit in Hamas governance of Gaza until it bit them in the arse.

Pierre 27-11-2023 20:49
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36165194)
It's more possible than a single-state solution and must be pursued so both countries can exist peacefully. The alternative is more unnecessary deaths in both countries.
A single Israeli state is the only way it ends.

There isn’t a “both” countries. There is only one country in that location. That country is Israel.

Palestine has never existed as a state.

jfman 27-11-2023 20:50
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165196)
A single Israeli state is the only way it ends.

There isn’t a “both” countries. There is only one country in that location. That country is Israel.

Palestine has never existed as a state.
Sounds a bit genocidey to me, tbh.

1andrew1 27-11-2023 20:50
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165193)
So let’s say there was an official Palestinian state either side of Israel formed from Gaza and the West Bank, and that Palestinian state elected an extreme Islamic jihadist party to govern them.

Then, that legitimate Palestinian state declared war on Israel, and undertook a military incursion into Israel killing thousands of Jews.

How is that any different to now.

If, in that theoretical scenario, Israel retaliated against that legitimate Palestinian state and flattened it, would you, Ian and JFman still condemn Israel for defending itself?

Giving Palestinians a state, would not give Israelis peace…..from the river to the sea negates the existence of Israel. Giving Palestinians a state wouldn’t change anything.
Most countries don't elect extremist political parties to govern them. Giving Palestinians a prosperous and economically successful country is the best guarantee of peace in the region. The more you have, the more you have to lose in the event of war.

The river to the sea is the wish of extremists in Israel and Palestine. It is not the wish of most people in those countries.

Pierre 27-11-2023 20:53
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165195)
The difference would be that Palestinians would genuinely be complicit in bringing around a state of war (if this hypothetical Palestine declared war on Israel). As it stands it hasn’t, and there isn’t one.
Sorry, I though Gazans elected a Hamas government and have kept them there.

Quote:
Terrorists carried out an act and Palestinian civilians are paying the price of the retaliation.

There’s no evidence Palestinians would vote for such a war, although nobody could rule out Israeli interference just as they were complicit in Hamas governance of Gaza until it bit them in the arse.
Gazan state sponsored terrorists carried out the attack, which was roundly celebrated by Gazans.

---------- Post added at 20:53 ---------- Previous post was at 20:52 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165197)
Sounds a bit genocidey to me, tbh.
Not at all

1andrew1 27-11-2023 21:00
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165196)
A single Israeli state is the only way it ends.

There isn’t a “both” countries. There is only one country in that location. That country is Israel.

Palestine has never existed as a state.
Your urge to post speedily outweighs your ability to be correct.
139 countries recognise the State of Palestine as a state.

Pierre 27-11-2023 21:01
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36165198)
Most countries don't elect extremist political parties to govern them.
Gazans did. Iranians did. Afghanis did. Somalis did…..tbf some of them may not have been elected but they took over unopposed.

Quote:
Giving Palestinians a prosperous and economically successful country is the best guarantee of peace in the region.
you don’t get given that, you have to work and create that. Gaza could have been the Dubai or the Abu Dhabi of the region but it isn’t

Quote:
The river to the sea is the wish of extremists in Israel and Palestine. It is not the wish of most people in those countries.
I wouldn’t know as I haven’t canvassed anyone, but I doubt that view to be accurate.

1andrew1 27-11-2023 21:03
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165199)
Sorry, I though Gazans elected a Hamas government and have kept them there.
How have they kept them there? There have been no elections since Hamas seized in power in 2007.

Pierre 27-11-2023 21:09
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36165201)
Your urge to post speedily outweighs your ability to be correct.
139 countries recognise the State of Palestine as a state.
I’m fully aware of that. It really only applies to Gaza, which actually backs up my point.

I’d appreciate it if you answered my previous post regarding your proposition of the two station solution though

jfman 27-11-2023 21:10
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165199)
Sorry, I thought Gazans elected a Hamas government and have kept them there.
You’re not suggesting that Palestinians… take up armed struggle?

Pierre 27-11-2023 21:17
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36165203)
How have they kept them there? There have been no elections since Hamas seized in power in 2007.
Sorry, I must have missed all the anti-Hamas marches they’ve had in Gaza.

---------- Post added at 21:17 ---------- Previous post was at 21:13 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165207)
You’re not suggesting that Palestinians… take up armed struggle?
Any protest would do.

Civil wars break out all the time.

But my point is beyond that. Andrew suggesting a two state solution would be the answer is bollocks.

If Gaza was part of a Palestinian state, what would be different? Nothing.

jfman 27-11-2023 21:55
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Plenty of people consider the two state solution as better than “bollocks”. However the one state solution - “from the river to the sea” as they say - is equally as uncomfortable a proposition under an Israeli flag as a Palestinian one.

Pierre 27-11-2023 22:02
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165210)
Plenty of people consider the two state solution as better than “bollocks”.
But it’s no different to what there was/ is now in regards to Gaza.

If Gaza was part of a legitimate Palestinian state, why would that presuppose peace?

Quote:
However the one state solution - “from the river to the sea” as they say - is equally as uncomfortable a proposition under an Israeli flag as a Palestinian one.
True, but with an Israeli state with Palestinian citizens, the Palestinian citizens would all be free to live as they wish within the law.

With a Palestinian state all the jews would be slaughtered.

It’s a small but important point.

1andrew1 27-11-2023 22:10
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165208)
Sorry, I must have missed all the anti-Hamas marches they’ve had in Gaza.
Sorry Pierre, I forgot you travel to Gaza quite a lot.

Pierre 27-11-2023 22:14
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36165213)
Sorry Pierre, I forgot you travel to Gaza quite a lot.
Oh! Sorry, so there have been anti-Hamas marches in Gaza? Thanks Andrew, do you have any details?

jfman 27-11-2023 22:17
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165212)
But it’s no different to what there was/ is now in regards to Gaza.

If Gaza was part of a legitimate Palestinian state, why would that presuppose peace?

True, but with an Israeli state with Palestinian citizens, the Palestinian citizens would all be free to live as they wish within the law.
:rofl:

Or die as second class citizens, having their property belongings seized by Israelis, as currently seen in settlements.

Quote:
With a Palestinian state all the jews would be slaughtered.
It’s a small but important point.[/QUOTE]

Not to the dead Palestinians it isn’t.

1andrew1 27-11-2023 22:18
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165212)
But it’s no different to what there was/ is now in regards to Gaza.
There's so much wrong with this statement I don't know where to begin! How can the Gaza enjoy any economic regeneration when people, food,and goods can't easily leave and enter the country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165212)
If Gaza was part of a legitimate Palestinian state, why would that presuppose peace?
Why would that pre-suppose war?

You seem to want to condemn Palestine to some kind of sub-civilised existence whilst permitting full nation rights to Israel despite its giving the OK to settlers to attack Palestinians in the West Bank and seize their property.

jfman 27-11-2023 22:22
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165214)
Oh! Sorry, so there have been anti-Hamas marches in Gaza? Thanks Andrew, do you have any details?
If there were they’d probably get bombed by Israel. The odds of Hamas being present at such a march would be so high if hospitals, churches and refugee camps aren’t safe despite international conventions there’s no reason to expect safety from Israeli bombardment at an anti-Hamas march.

1andrew1 27-11-2023 22:28
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165214)
Oh! Sorry, so there have been anti-Hamas marches in Gaza? Thanks Andrew, do you have any details?
It's probably a full-time job being your Google assistant but I'm happy to oblige on this occasion. ;)

Quote:
Protests against Hamas reemerge in the streets of Gaza, but will they persist?

Demonstrations have again broken out against the terror group that rules over impoverished enclave, though such movements have been short-lived in the past.

On July 30, thousands of people throughout the Gaza Strip took to the streets demanding better living conditions, in a rare display of public anger against the Hamas regime. The following Friday, August 4, hundreds of people rallied again in various parts of the enclave.

Protesters were rallying under the slogan “We want to live” — the same slogan used in the last round of protests in March-April 2019. The demonstrations have been organized by an anonymous Instagram account under the name “Al-Virus Al-Sakher,” or “The Mocking Virus,” which has 160,000 followers. Various anti-Hamas activists in exile have joined the campaign, urging Gazans to take to the streets and demand a better standard of living.

Given the near-complete absence of free media in the Strip, it is difficult for outside analysts to gauge how many people participated in the latest round of protests. According to videos circulating on social media, numbers seemed to be significantly larger in the first demonstration than in the second, when Hamas’s security apparatus adopted preventive measures...

Protests long in the making
Popular discontent with the Hamas regime in Gaza has been simmering for years. Since the group wrested control of the coastal strip from the Fatah-run Palestinian Authority in 2007, large-scale protests have taken place on several occasions, most recently in April 2015, January 2017 and again in 2019. Each time, protests were repressed by Hamas security forces and did not lead to any significant changes for the local population.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/protes...-they-persist/

Pierre 27-11-2023 22:44
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165215)
:rofl:

Or die as second class citizens, having their property belongings seized by Israelis, as currently seen in settlements.
20% of Israel’s population is Palestinian living freely in Israel.

Quote:
Not to the dead Palestinians it isn’t.
Once again you deflect from the difference between the two possible outcomes.

Palestinians can live in an Israeli state, and have done for decades.

Jews would not be allowed to live in a Palestinian state.

---------- Post added at 22:44 ---------- Previous post was at 22:37 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36165216)
There's so much wrong with this statement I don't know where to begin! How can the Gaza enjoy any economic regeneration when people, food,and goods can't easily leave and enter the country?
Gaza borders but two countries, Egypt and Israel. If Gaza had rejected terrorism 18yr ago and embarked on regeneration it wouldn’t have been a problem


Quote:
Why would that pre-suppose war?
current events?

Quote:
You seem to want to condemn Palestine to some kind of sub-civilised existence
Not at all, I just said Gaza could have been the Dubai of the region.

Quote:
whilst permitting full nation rights to Israel
Israel already has full nation rights

1andrew1 27-11-2023 22:45
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165220)
20% of Israel’s population is Palestinian living freely in Israel.
I'm not sure those Palestinians in Israel kicked out of their homes would describe themselves as living freely.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/ca...-of-apartheid/

Pierre 27-11-2023 22:50
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36165218)
It's probably a full-time job being your Google assistant but I'm happy to oblige on this occasion. ;)



https://www.timesofisrael.com/protes...-they-persist/
This is a genuine thank you for that, this proves that a Palestinian uprising against Hamas is possible, as I suggest is what should happen and contrary to what JFman thinks.


You’re hired, as google assistant, to a unhinged and according to Hugh, potentially alcoholic, Pierre.

jfman 27-11-2023 22:51
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165220)
Jews would not be allowed to live in a Palestinian state.
Considering Palestinians are being killed every day at the hands of the Jewish state I find this baseless claim, and the entire basis for it, absurd.

Pierre 27-11-2023 22:54
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36165222)
I'm not sure those Palestinians in Israel kicked out of their homes would describe themselves as living freely.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/ca...-of-apartheid/
Well, let’s weigh up how many Palestinians live in Israel in relative peace vs how many Jews live in Gaza in relative peace.

The Winner is the one that isn’t zero.

---------- Post added at 22:54 ---------- Previous post was at 22:52 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165226)
Considering Palestinians are being killed every day at the hands of the Jewish state I find this baseless claim, and the entire basis for it, absurd.
That’s fine, but my statement is accurate and your rebuttal is absurd and baseless.

Hugh 27-11-2023 22:56
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165225)
This is a genuine thank you for that, this proves that a Palestinian uprising against Hamas is possible, as I suggest is what should happen and contrary to what JFman thinks.


You’re hired, as google assistant, to an unhinged and according to Hugh, potentially alcoholic, Pierre.
Wow!

Your comment is unfounded - I have never intimated that.

I may have believed you’d been drinking, but stating that does not equate to calling you potentially alcoholic.

jfman 27-11-2023 22:59
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165227)
Well, let’s weigh up how many Palestinians live in Israel in relative peace vs how many Jews live in Gaza in relative peace.

The Winner is the one that isn’t zero.

---------- Post added at 22:54 ---------- Previous post was at 22:52 ----------



That’s fine, but my statement is accurate and your rebuttal is absurd and baseless.
In fairness, nobody lives in Gaza in “relative peace”.

Pierre 27-11-2023 23:04
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36165229)
Wow!

Your comment is unfounded - I have never intimated that.

I may have believed you’d been drinking, but stating that does not equate to calling you potentially alcoholic.
Calm down Hugh, it was said in jest.

---------- Post added at 23:04 ---------- Previous post was at 23:00 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165230)
In fairness, nobody lives in Gaza in “relative peace”.
Certainly no Jews there.

Jews hate Palestinians so much they make up 1/5th of the population.

Gazans tolerate Jews so much they make up 0% of the population*

(*well even with the recent releases there’s an unprecedented number of Jews currently in Gaza, I think it’s a blip though)

Dave42 05-12-2023 15:35
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Alex Crawford
@AlexCrawfordSky
·
31m
It is absolutely farcical to try to peddle the view that foreign journalists are not entering Gaza because it’s ‘dangerous’. International journalists have been delib blocked from entering #Gaza by primarily #Israel who doesnt want them seeing the war crimes ��

Sephiroth 05-12-2023 16:32
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 36165808)
Alex Crawford
@AlexCrawfordSky
·
31m
It is absolutely farcical to try to peddle the view that foreign journalists are not entering Gaza because it’s ‘dangerous’. International journalists have been delib blocked from entering #Gaza by primarily #Israel who doesnt want them seeing the war crimes ��
Is that what an official from Israel told you? The BBC is already in Gaza reporting he goings on.

Hugh 05-12-2023 17:15
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36165809)
Is that what an official from Israel told you? The BBC is already in Gaza reporting he goings on.
No, it’s what Alex Crawford, a reporter from Sky News, is saying…

https://x.com/alexcrawfordsky/status...Fx9lsEXWlOa1jg

Sephiroth 05-12-2023 17:29
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36165813)
No, it’s what Alex Crawford, a reporter from Sky News, is saying…

https://x.com/alexcrawfordsky/status...Fx9lsEXWlOa1jg


Would Alex Crawford have been told by an Israeli official that Israel is keeping reporters out of Gaza to avoid them reporting the goings on?

Hugh 05-12-2023 18:54
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36165814)


Would Alex Crawford have been told by an Israeli official that Israel is keeping reporters out of Gaza to avoid them reporting the goings on?
No, Alex Crawford is saying reporters are not being allowed into Gaza to report on the conflict.

OLD BOY 05-12-2023 19:48
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165226)
Considering Palestinians are being killed every day at the hands of the Jewish state I find this baseless claim, and the entire basis for it, absurd.
The reason that is absurd is that the reason for Israel’s killing of Palestinians is the persistent aggression of Hamas, who have been lopping rockets into Israel over many years, with occasional acts of additional barbarity as happened in October. They don’t want to negotiate, they sabotaged the peace talks, but you blame Israel. Priceless!

Without those terrorist monsters, there is no reason why a two-state solution wouldn’t work, and even total integration with free movement between the two states once trust was restored. That of course, would take many years.

Israel doesn’t want this war or the constant insecurity it has been putting up with all this time. This is down to Hamas, no-one else.

jfman 05-12-2023 19:53
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36165822)
The reason that is absurd is that the reason for Israel’s killing of Palestinians is the persistent aggression of Hamas, who have been lopping rockets into Israel over many years, with occasional acts of additional barbarity as happened in October. They don’t want to negotiate, they sabotaged the peace talks, but you blame Israel. Priceless!

Without those terrorist monsters, there is no reason why a two-state solution wouldn’t work, and even total integration with free movement between the two states once trust was restored. That of course, would take many years.

Israel doesn’t want this war or the constant insecurity it has been putting up with all this time. This is down to Hamas, no-one else.
The “persistent aggression” of Hamas that kills substantially less civilians than Israel do.

Israel absolutely want this war. If they didn’t it would simply cease, Israel would secure its borders and its population for the most part safe. All of which are circumstances Israel are denying the Palestinian population of Gaza as they rain down bombs on civilian areas, destroy it’s civilian infrastructure, it’s mosques, it’s hospitals, it’s universities and everything a society is built upon.

OLD BOY 05-12-2023 19:57
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165824)
The “persistent aggression” of Hamas that kills substantially less civilians than Israel do.

Israel absolutely want this war. If they didn’t it would simply cease, Israel would secure its borders and its population for the most part safe. All of which are circumstances Israel are denying the Palestinian population of Gaza as they rain down bombs on civilian areas, destroy it’s civilian infrastructure, it’s mosques, it’s hospitals, it’s universities and everything a society is built upon.
Don’t be daft. Do you really believe that, or are you just being provocative?

Sephiroth 05-12-2023 20:00
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165824)
The “persistent aggression” of Hamas that kills substantially less civilians than Israel do.

Israel absolutely want this war. If they didn’t it would simply cease, Israel would secure its borders and its population for the most part safe. All of which are circumstances Israel are denying the Palestinian population of Gaza as they rain down bombs on civilian areas, destroy it’s civilian infrastructure, it’s mosques, it’s hospitals, it’s universities and everything a society is built upon.
Hamas should have thought of that before they so brutally murdered 1200 Israelis. Oh, sorry - Hamas don't care what happens to their civilians.

jfman 05-12-2023 20:07
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36165827)
Don’t be daft. Do you really believe that, or are you just being provocative?
There's nothing daft about pointing out that Israel, in the absence of clearly defined military objectives are taking the opportunity to decimate Gaza, largely killing thousands of women and children in the process, destroying infrastructure, homes, mosques, hospitals.

It's observable reality.

---------- Post added at 20:07 ---------- Previous post was at 20:06 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36165828)
Hamas should have thought of that before they so brutally murdered 1200 Israelis. Oh, sorry - Hamas don't care what happens to their civilians.
The entirety of the population of Gaza don't deserve everything they have destroyed on this basis.

Israel by any measure over any time period kill substantially more Palestinian civilians than Hamas do Israeli ones.

OLD BOY 05-12-2023 20:15
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165830)
There's nothing daft about pointing out that Israel, in the absence of clearly defined military objectives are taking the opportunity to decimate Gaza, largely killing thousands of women and children in the process, destroying infrastructure, homes, mosques, hospitals.

It's observable reality.

---------- Post added at 20:07 ---------- Previous post was at 20:06 ----------



The entirety of the population of Gaza don't deserve everything they have destroyed on this basis.

Israel by any measure over any time period kill substantially more Palestinian civilians than Hamas do Israeli ones.
You are judging this on the basis of seeing the situation as a numbers game.

This is ridiculous. You can blame Hamas for the high casualty rate. They are the cowards protecting themselves with human shields.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67629181

These are the people you are defending.

jfman 05-12-2023 20:22
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36165834)
You are judging this on the basis of seeing the situation as a numbers game.

This is ridiculous. You can blame Hamas for the high casualty rate. They are the cowards protecting themselves with human shields.
There’s no evidence that they are actively using human shields, it’s merely a lazy trope by the IDF to justify razing entire civilian areas to the ground.

You stated position that Palestinians can “suck it up” has already clearly demonstrated you don’t value Palestinian civilian life, as has the tedious tour of the 2006 Palestinian elections, so forgive me for considering your input of extremely low value and clouded by your own prejudices.

---------- Post added at 20:22 ---------- Previous post was at 20:20 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36165834)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67629181

These are the people you are defending.
That’s an outright disgusting and contemptible lie to accuse me of defending Hamas. Clear evidence that you are clutching at desperation to justify your own clearly stated view that the Palestinian civilians, women and children, do not deserve safety in their own land.

I repeat - once again - nobody will find a single post where I do.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...ies-dead-nasr/

These are the people you ARE defending. Do these babies not deserve a life merely because they are Palestinian?

Pierre 05-12-2023 20:31
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165824)
Israel absolutely want this war.

No they don’t, Iran wanted the war because Israeli relations with other influential Arab states, via the Abraham accords and other bi-lateral agreements, were becoming normalised.

Saudi Arabia was about to join in with these states.

Israel’s government had relaxed its vigilance (something it would live to regret)

Iran funds Hamas, Hezbollah and probably several other jihadist groups.


Quote:
If they didn’t it would simply cease,
. Until the next time, Israel is trying to make sure there is not a next time. How successful that will be will remain to be seen

Quote:
Israel would secure its borders and its population for the most part safe.
That’s a measure unacceptable to Israel

Quote:
All of which are circumstances Israel are denying the Palestinian population of Gaza as they rain down bombs on civilian areas, destroy it’s civilian infrastructure, it’s mosques, it’s hospitals, it’s universities and everything a society is built upon.
It’s very sad, Israel would argue that it’s unfortunate collateral damage and casualties of war. Civilian casualties, destruction of civilian infrastructure is a consequence of every war that’s ever been fought. I don’t understand why everyone thinks this one should/will be any different.

jfman 05-12-2023 20:37
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165840)
No they don’t, Iran wanted the war because Israeli relations with other influential Arab states, via the Abraham accords and other bi-lateral agreements, were becoming normalised.

Saudi Arabia was about to join in with these states.

Israel’s government had relaxed its vigilance (something it would live to regret)

Iran funds Hamas, Hezbollah and probably several other jihadist groups.

. Until the next time, Israel is trying to make sure there is not a next time. How successful that will be will remain to be seen
There will always be a next time for an Israeli state that massacres Palestinian civilians.

Quote:
That’s a measure unacceptable to Israel

It’s very sad, Israel would argue that it’s unfortunate collateral damage and casualties of war. Civilian casualties, destruction of civilian infrastructure is a consequence of every war that’s ever been fought. I don’t understand why everyone thinks this one should/will be any different.
I’m sure future generations of Palestinians, and the wider Arab world, will accept its “very sad” and just move on. If civilians are fair game for one they are fair game for all. A consequence of every war that’s ever been faught. I don’t understand why everyone thinks this one should/will be any different.

Pierre 05-12-2023 20:50
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165841)
There will always be a next time for an Israeli state that massacres Palestinian civilians.
There will always be a next time for a defacto Palestinian state that massacres Israeli civilians.

Quote:
I’m sure future generations of Palestinians, and the wider Arab world, will accept its “very sad” and just move on. If civilians are fair game for one they are fair game for all. A consequence of every war that’s ever been faught. I don’t understand why everyone thinks this one should/will be any different.
Well every other nation that’s been in a war has.

Why do you think this war should be played by other rules than any other war in history?

jfman 05-12-2023 21:02
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165843)
There will always be a next time for a defacto Palestinian state that massacres Israeli civilians.

Well every other nation that’s been in a war has.

Why do you think this war should be played by other rules than any other war in history?
This isn’t a war in any meaningful sense, it’s a massacre until Israel gets bored of it or America tells them to stop. Palestinian civilians are, broadly, defenceless. For those that haven’t been killed many have already lost everything they have, and there will be no meaningful reconstructions afterwards. Economies take generations to recover from the kinds of damage that have been undertaken to date. Is that a punishment on hundreds of thousands a price worth paying for a security that will never exist?

I don’t think this war should be “played by different rules”. I think it should stop. It doesn’t make Israel, its allies, or Jewish communities around the world any safer the longer it continues.

nomadking 05-12-2023 21:27
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
So where are these "out in the open" targets that the IDF can attack? Are the IDF still being shot at, and where are they being shot at from? The Hamas terrorists are somewhere, so where else are they?

jfman 05-12-2023 21:36
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36165846)
So where are these "out in the open" targets that the IDF can attack? Are the IDF still being shot at, and where are they being shot at from? The Hamas terrorists are somewhere, so where else are they?
Considering they’ve bombed over 12,000 (presumably favoured) targets, killing almost as many women and children, they could just call it a day rather than continue pretending that eliminating every single Hamas militant is a realistic goal.

It’s unsurprising that the IDF are being shot at in Gaza given they’ve reduced much of it to rubble. Populations you attempt to bomb out of existence rarely welcome occupiers with open arms.

nomadking 05-12-2023 21:44
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165847)
Considering they’ve bombed over 12,000 (presumably favoured) targets, killing almost as many women and children, they could just call it a day rather than continue pretending that eliminating every single Hamas militant is a realistic goal.

It’s unsurprising that the IDF are being shot at in Gaza given they’ve reduced much of it to rubble. Populations you attempt to bomb out of existence rarely welcome occupiers with open arms.
If there are Hamas terrorists shooting back, the job isn't finished. Basic rule of war, it's only over when you're not being shot at.
Are Hamas fighting out in the open? Yes or No? Did they invade and attack Israel? Yes or No? If Hamas didn't continually attack Israel, would this be going on? Yes or No?

Pierre 05-12-2023 21:44
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165845)
This isn’t a war in any meaningful sense, it’s a massacre until Israel gets bored of it
The military arm of the government of a defacto Palestinian state attacked Israel, Israel in return declared war against that government and defacto Palestinian state.

This is a war.

The parallels to this action an Afghanistan are almost identical. Unless you think Afghanistan wasn’t a war in any meaningful sense.

Quote:
Palestinian civilians are, broadly, defenceless.
That’s pretty much priced in with the term Civillian.

Quote:
For those that haven’t been killed many have already lost everything they have
That tends to be what happens to civilians unfortunately caught up in war zones

Quote:
and there will be no meaningful reconstructions afterwards.
that remains to be seen

Quote:
Economies take generations to recover from the kinds of damage that have been undertaken to date.
Yes, as did ours.

Quote:
Is that a punishment on hundreds of thousands a price worth paying for a security that will never exist?
At least you admit here that the region just won’t tolerate Israel’s right to exist, and therefore Israel is right to take whatever steps necessary to ensure it’s security.

Quote:
I don’t think this war should be “played by different rules”. I think it should stop. It doesn’t make Israel, its allies, or Jewish communities around the world any safer the longer it continues.
As previous answer……just curious, what would make it safer?


I disagree with that last paragraph for what it’s worth. What the West has seemed to have forgotten is that it is not diplomacy that keeps the peace, it is strength and power. Show weakness and you will be attacked by opportunists. Examples of this are many fold, throughout history.

Israel, and certainly not Netanyahu, cannot afford to look weak ever again.

jfman 05-12-2023 21:54
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
If not looking weak - essentially political posturing - is a price paid in Palestinian blood that will have inevitable consequences around the world.

For clarity I didn’t say that the region deny Israel’s rights to exist (some inevitably do, many do not) - my point was related to its security alone. And I’ve not claimed Israel can’t take steps in genuine self defence.

The pretence that Hamas are the de-facto Palestinian state might soothe the consciences of those that are pro-Israel but for everyone else it rings absolutely hollow as a justification for the civilian death toll and destruction of civilian communities and infrastructure.

Hamas were widely criticised for tactics straight out the Middle Ages, Israel won’t look much better if it’s only the technology that distinguishes them from the conflicts of the 19th and early 20th centuries.

Sephiroth 05-12-2023 21:58
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165830)
There's nothing daft about pointing out that Israel, in the absence of clearly defined military objectives are taking the opportunity to decimate Gaza, largely killing thousands of women and children in the process, destroying infrastructure, homes, mosques, hospitals.

It's observable reality.

---------- Post added at 20:07 ---------- Previous post was at 20:06 ----------



The entirety of the population of Gaza don't deserve everything they have destroyed on this basis.

Israel by any measure over any time period kill substantially more Palestinian civilians than Hamas do Israeli ones.
That's a numerical assessment. Not a root cause analysis.
Israel had no choice but to go after Hamas, who hide behind civilians and in tunnels, etc.

jfman 05-12-2023 22:05
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36165851)
That's a numerical assessment. Not a root cause analysis.
Israel had no choice but to go after Hamas, who hide behind civilians and in tunnels, etc.
Israel absolutely have a choice in how they choose to attack Hamas and to what extent they choose to value civilian Palestinian life in the cost/benefits analysis of every single strike.

To pretend otherwise is to absolve Israel of its responsibility as both an occupying power (internationally recognised) and an actor waging warfare in civilian areas. 12,000 bombs in, with almost as many innocent women and children killed, hundreds of thousands displaced, a territory in ruins, it’s absolutely legitimate to ask what military benefit the next 12,000 bombs will have considering that’ll be more bombs than Hamas militants.

TheDaddy 05-12-2023 22:24
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36165822)
The reason that is absurd is that the reason for Israel’s killing of Palestinians is the persistent aggression of Hamas, who have been lopping rockets into Israel over many years, with occasional acts of additional barbarity as happened in October. They don’t want to negotiate, they sabotaged the peace talks, but you blame Israel. Priceless!

Without those terrorist monsters, there is no reason why a two-state solution wouldn’t work, and even total integration with free movement between the two states once trust was restored. That of course, would take many years.

Israel doesn’t want this war or the constant insecurity it has been putting up with all this time. This is down to Hamas, no-one else.
247 Palestinians have been killed on the West Bank since this started and another 2500+ injured, over 50 of those killed were children but you know there's no reason why a two state solution wouldn't work, except Israel in it's current guise don't want it to and were happy to prop up hamas and put up with an acceptable level of violence against them to prevent it from happening

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36165834)
You are judging this on the basis of seeing the situation as a numbers game.

This is ridiculous. You can blame Hamas for the high casualty rate. They are the cowards protecting themselves with human shields.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67629181

These are the people you are defending.
He isn't defending them, don't be daft, criticism of Israel doesn't equate to support of hamas

Pierre 05-12-2023 22:26
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165850)
If not looking weak - essentially political posturing - is a price paid in Palestinian blood that will have inevitable consequences around the world.
it’s not political posturing, it’s showing you have the force and fortitude to not be messed around with.

It’s the lack of, that arguably led towards the invasion of Ukraine, invasion of the Falklands and in a large degree the Second World War. If you’re deemed to be weak with no appetite for retaliation, you will be, at some point, attacked.

Quote:
For clarity I didn’t say that the region deny Israel’s rights to exist (some inevitably do, many do not) - my point was related to its security alone. And I’ve not claimed Israel can’t take steps in genuine self defence.
noted.

Quote:
The pretence that Hamas are the de-facto Palestinian state might soothe the consciences of those that are pro-Israel but for everyone else it rings absolutely hollow as a justification for the civilian death toll and destruction of civilian communities and infrastructure.
It’s not a pretence though, is it. If there was a two state solution arranged tomorrow, there are very short odds that they government of it would end up being an Islamist Jihadist group funded by Iran ……you can give them any name you wish.

Quote:
Hamas were widely criticised for tactics straight out the Middle Ages
Using the term “ tactics” is very charitable of you.

Quote:
Israel won’t look much better if it’s only the technology that distinguishes them from the conflicts of the 19th and early 20th centuries.
Don’t constrain yourself, we can go back thousand of years. As far back as when Jews were expelled from the very land they are accused of occupying ( but that’s a rabbit hole best avoided). Israel only has to look better in the defence of its people, no one else.

jfman 05-12-2023 22:51
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165857)
it’s not political posturing, it’s showing you have the force and fortitude to not be messed around with.
Netanyahu needs a distraction because the ball was dropped on his watch. His complicity in permitting funding and resources for Hamas to be allowed into Gaza will historically be viewed, rightly, as disastrous no matter how much he satisfies the bloodlust of Zionists today.

Quote:
It’s the lack of, that arguably led towards the invasion of Ukraine, invasion of the Falklands and in a large degree the Second World War. If you’re deemed to be weak with no appetite for retaliation, you will be, at some point, attacked.
Israel’s retaliation has been robust for 70 years. It’ll continue to be for 70 more.

Quote:
It’s not a pretence though, is it. If there was a two state solution arranged tomorrow, there are very short odds that they government of it would end up being an Islamist Jihadist group funded by Iran ……you can give them any name you wish.

Using the term “ tactics” is very charitable of you.

Don’t constrain yourself, we can go back thousand of years. As far back as when Jews were expelled from the very land they are accused of occupying ( but that’s a rabbit hole best avoided). Israel only has to look better in the defence of its people, no one else.
It’s a short sighted view that guarantees peace for no-one. Decimating what little of Palestinian society actually exists guarantees any “political” movements will be fuelled by a desire for revenge, as you say probably funded by Iran. The cycle doesn’t break under more bombs.

ianch99 05-12-2023 23:33
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
I see Israel has resumed it industrial slaughter of the civilians in Gaza. Go south they said, you will be safe. They are now bombing southern Gaza.

The question still stands: how many dead Gazan children is too much? Where is the red line?

Pierre 05-12-2023 23:43
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165859)
Netanyahu needs a distraction because the ball was dropped on his watch.
We can agree on this. His ineptitude has not only allowed the attack but also fuelled the response.

A stronger Israel May not have experienced this attack. But also Israel was fooled into thinking their existence was being accepted in the region…..which to a degree by the civilised nations it was. But Islamist Iran hold too much sway and finances too many jihadist groups to allow that.

Israel was essentially de-escalating…..big mistake, they won’t make it again.

Quote:
His complicity in permitting funding and resources for Hamas to be allowed into Gaza will historically be viewed, rightly, as disastrous no matter how much he satisfies the bloodlust of Zionists today.
It’s an accusation, very far from being proved, False flag type stuff best kept for the apollo eleven deniers and flat earthers.


Quote:
Israel’s retaliation has been robust for 70 years. It’ll continue to be for 70 more.
I’ve spoken to them and that is indeed their plan.


Quote:
It’s a short sighted view that guarantees peace for no-one. Decimating what little of Palestinian society actually exists guarantees any “political” movements will be fuelled by a desire for revenge, as you say probably funded by Iran. The cycle doesn’t break under more bombs.
I have to concede, there’s no answer. But ask yourself the question. After 2000+ years with no answer, why would one miraculously appear now?

---------- Post added at 23:43 ---------- Previous post was at 23:41 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36165861)
I see Israel has resumed it industrial slaughter of the civilians in Gaza. Go south they said, you will be safe. They are now bombing southern Gaza.

The question still stands: how many dead Gazan children is too much? Where is the red line?
I’m having an intelligent discussion with JFman, don’t interrupt with inane obvious observations, yes we can see it’s all horrible.

OLD BOY 05-12-2023 23:44
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165836)
There’s no evidence that they are actively using human shields, it’s merely a lazy trope by the IDF to justify razing entire civilian areas to the ground.

You stated position that Palestinians can “suck it up” has already clearly demonstrated you don’t value Palestinian civilian life, as has the tedious tour of the 2006 Palestinian elections, so forgive me for considering your input of extremely low value and clouded by your own prejudices.

---------- Post added at 20:22 ---------- Previous post was at 20:20 ----------



That’s an outright disgusting and contemptible lie to accuse me of defending Hamas. Clear evidence that you are clutching at desperation to justify your own clearly stated view that the Palestinian civilians, women and children, do not deserve safety in their own land.

I repeat - once again - nobody will find a single post where I do.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...ies-dead-nasr/

These are the people you ARE defending. Do these babies not deserve a life merely because they are Palestinian?
Of course I care about civilian lives. It’s Hamas lives I don’t care about because they are bloodthirsty monsters.

But it is inevitable that there will be collateral damage because of Hamas cowardice.

As for your daft statement that there’s no evidence of Hamas using civilians, including schools and hospitals, for cover, exactly how much evidence do you need?

You are being perverse now for the sake of it. That’s all I will say on the matter.

jfman 06-12-2023 00:26
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36165864)
Of course I care about civilian lives. It’s Hamas lives I don’t care about because they are bloodthirsty monsters.

But it is inevitable that there will be collateral damage because of Hamas cowardice.

As for your daft statement that there’s no evidence of Hamas using civilians, including schools and hospitals, for cover, exactly how much evidence do you need?

You are being perverse now for the sake of it. That’s all I will say on the matter.
When I say there’s no evidence it’s because Israel went into the hospital they claimed there were tunnels under and there weren’t any! There were some planted weapons in various and contradictory quantities depending on which media outlet was being asked to peddle their propaganda.

Quite happy for you to not discuss further with me since you have clear disdain for Palestinian civilian lives (in your own words) and your false slurs against my posts are most unwelcome. If that’s all you have then stick to the streaming threads.

---------- Post added at 00:26 ---------- Previous post was at 00:13 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165862)
We can agree on this. His ineptitude has not only allowed the attack but also fuelled the response.

A stronger Israel May not have experienced this attack. But also Israel was fooled into thinking their existence was being accepted in the region…..which to a degree by the civilised nations it was. But Islamist Iran hold too much sway and finances too many jihadist groups to allow that.

Israel was essentially de-escalating…..big mistake, they won’t make it again.

It’s an accusation, very far from being proved, False flag type stuff best kept for the apollo eleven deniers and flat earthers.

I’ve spoken to them and that is indeed their plan.

I have to concede, there’s no answer. But ask yourself the question. After 2000+ years with no answer, why would one miraculously appear now?

I’m having an intelligent discussion with JFman, don’t interrupt with inane obvious observations, yes we can see it’s all horrible.
De-escalation was only ever one half of any solution. The other is a Palestinian state (and internal political settlement) that avoids falling into the pockets of Iran or other radical elements that will be more than happy to bankroll attacks for their own political ends with Palestinians providing the fodder. Without Israeli engagement and support (and by proxy American support) it’s always doomed to fail.

I don’t for a minute pretend that’s easy. Millions of legitimately aggrieved people need to let go of the awful things that have gone before. In the future some would have to turn the other cheek at inevitable attempts at sabotage.

Paul 06-12-2023 00:39
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
From the BBC site ;

Quote:
Israel Gaza: Hamas raped and mutilated women on 7 October
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67629181

Sephiroth 06-12-2023 11:59
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36165861)
I see Israel has resumed it industrial slaughter of the civilians in Gaza. Go south they said, you will be safe. They are now bombing southern Gaza.

The question still stands: how many dead Gazan children is too much? Where is the red line?
How many butchered and raped Israelis, some baked in ovens, would it take for you to ‘allow’ Israel to try and wipe out Hamas?

And please don’t hide behind something like “Israel should have retailiated differently” or similar. Hamas is evil and unless eradicated will regroup and do it again.

mrmistoffelees 06-12-2023 12:08
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36165893)
How many butchered and raped Israelis, some baked in ovens, would it take for you to ‘allow’ Israel to try and wipe out Hamas?

And please don’t hide behind something like “Israel should have retailiated differently” or similar. Hamas is evil and unless eradicated will regroup and do it again.
Wiping out Hamas is absolutely justifiable , wiping out Hamas at the cost of thousands of innocent lives being lost is not.

Also, the use of sexual violence including rape in the history of this conflict is not exclusively limited to Hamas.

ianch99 06-12-2023 12:30
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36165893)
How many butchered and raped Israelis, some baked in ovens, would it take for you to ‘allow’ Israel to try and wipe out Hamas?

And please don’t hide behind something like “Israel should have retailiated differently” or similar. Hamas is evil and unless eradicated will regroup and do it again.
I have said before numerous times and I will say again. Hamas is a murderous death cult and needs to be be disenfranchised and replaced by a more centrist Palestinian authority. There are other ways to do this: ways more considered and precise. Killing thousands of children is not the only way.

Your comments on this question are disturbing: you reply with emotive phrases when asked a simple question.

---------- Post added at 12:30 ---------- Previous post was at 12:22 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165862)
I’m having an intelligent discussion with JFman, don’t interrupt with inane obvious observations, yes we can see it’s all horrible.
Don't be so condescending. This forum is not just for you and him.

"We can see it’s all horrible" Actually, in fact you are unable to. You sanction the loss of so much life in Gaza with no boundaries. Your insincere hand wringing fools no one. You have no compassion for those civilians in Gaza.

1andrew1 06-12-2023 12:42
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165871)
De-escalation was only ever one half of any solution. The other is a Palestinian state (and internal political settlement) that avoids falling into the pockets of Iran or other radical elements that will be more than happy to bankroll attacks for their own political ends with Palestinians providing the fodder. Without Israeli engagement and support (and by proxy American support) it’s always doomed to fail.

I don’t for a minute pretend that’s easy. Millions of legitimately aggrieved people need to let go of the awful things that have gone before. In the future some would have to turn the other cheek at inevitable attempts at sabotage.
Great summary. :clap:

Pierre 06-12-2023 12:54
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36165898)

Don't be so condescending. This forum is not just for you and him.

"We can see it’s all horrible" Actually, in fact you are unable to. You sanction the loss of so much life in Gaza with no boundaries. Your insincere hand wringing fools no one. You have no compassion for those civilians in Gaza.
you have asked the question several times, it's been answered several times. I'm not doing any handwringing, you're doing just fine by yourself.

It's war, you want the war to stop?

Then instead of demanding Israel stop their actions, go out and march, demanding that Hamas unconditionally surrender. All Hamas soldiers & leaders and should come out, lay down their weapons, release the remaining hostages and give Israel all of their arsenal so it can be destroyed.

Then Israel would stop.

jfman 06-12-2023 13:01
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36165896)
Wiping out Hamas is absolutely justifiable , wiping out Hamas at the cost of thousands of innocent lives being lost is not.

Also, the use of sexual violence including rape in the history of this conflict is not exclusively limited to Hamas.
No but the Israeli Government are doing a good job with their 45 minute video to select journalists to keep it alive in the news cycle.

A useful distraction from their own actions.

mrmistoffelees 06-12-2023 13:01
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165904)
you have asked the question several times, it's been answered several times. I'm not doing any handwringing, you're doing just fine by yourself.

It's war, you want the war to stop?

Then instead of demanding Israel stop their actions, go out and march, demanding that Hamas unconditionally surrender. All Hamas soldiers & leaders and should come out, lay down their weapons, release the remaining hostages and give Israel all of their arsenal so it can be destroyed.

Then Israel would stop.
To clarify, ‘Then Israel would stop’ does that encompass ALL actions ? Or just those directly in response to the events of October 7th ?

Sephiroth 06-12-2023 13:24
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36165896)
Wiping out Hamas is absolutely justifiable , wiping out Hamas at the cost of thousands of innocent lives being lost is not.

Also, the use of sexual violence including rape in the history of this conflict is not exclusively limited to Hamas.
How would you suggest Israel should wipe out Hamas?

---------- Post added at 13:24 ---------- Previous post was at 13:20 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36165898)
I have said before numerous times and I will say again. Hamas is a murderous death cult and needs to be be disenfranchised and replaced by a more centrist Palestinian authority. There are other ways to do this: ways more considered and precise. Killing thousands of children is not the only way.

Your comments on this question are disturbing: you reply with emotive phrases when asked a simple question.
<SNIP>
What other ways?

Your question is far from simple; its both abstract and rhetorical because it cannot be answered. Nor, of course, can my question but it makes the point.

jfman 06-12-2023 13:39
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165904)
you have asked the question several times, it's been answered several times. I'm not doing any handwringing, you're doing just fine by yourself.

It's war, you want the war to stop?

Then instead of demanding Israel stop their actions, go out and march, demanding that Hamas unconditionally surrender. All Hamas soldiers & leaders and should come out, lay down their weapons, release the remaining hostages and give Israel all of their arsenal so it can be destroyed.

Then Israel would stop.
Why should the safety and security of two million people depend on the actions of 20,000 terrorists, rapists and (alleged) baby beheaders?

That’s 99 innocent civilians for every 1 terrorist. In what skewed world view is that even slightly proportionate.

Sephiroth 06-12-2023 13:42
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165911)
Why should the safety and security of two million people depend on the actions of 20,000 terrorists, rapists and (alleged) baby beheaders?

That’s 99 innocent civilians for every 1 terrorist. In what skewed world view is that even slightly proportionate.
How should Israel have erased the 20,000 terrorists? A realistic answer please.

jfman 06-12-2023 13:45
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36165914)
How should Israel have erased the 20,000 terrorists? A realistic answer please.
In what was is it presently a realistic outcome? They’re probably bombing more prospective terrorists into existence than out of it.

By your logic, taken to extreme, they can ethnically cleanse the entire population of Gaza so long as one single Hamas militant remains.

Sephiroth 06-12-2023 13:52
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165915)
In what was is it presently a realistic outcome? They’re probably bombing more prospective terrorists into existence than out of it.

By your logic, taken to extreme, they can ethnically cleanse the entire population of Gaza so long as one single Hamas militant remains.
I'll ask my question again in case you try to give a proper answer:

How should Israel have erased the 20,000 terrorists?

jfman 06-12-2023 13:57
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36165916)
I'll ask my question again in case you try to give a proper answer:

How should Israel have erased the 20,000 terrorists?
Have they erased 20,000 terrorists? You are speaking in the past tense and Hamas are still there, and will still be there long afterwards.

Pierre 06-12-2023 13:57
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36165907)
To clarify, ‘Then Israel would stop’ does that encompass ALL actions ? Or just those directly in response to the events of October 7th ?
What actions had they taken against Gaza since their withdrawal in 2005 that wasn't in retaliation to Hamas aggression?

Sephiroth 06-12-2023 14:04
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165918)
Have they erased 20,000 terrorists? You are speaking in the past tense and Hamas are still there, and will still be there long afterwards.
Of course I'm speaking in the past tense, just like you.
But you're complaining about Israel's methods. I'm asking you as to what method Israel should be using to erase Hamas?

Pierre 06-12-2023 14:27
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165911)
Why should the safety and security of two million people depend on the actions of 20,000 terrorists, rapists and (alleged) baby beheaders?

That’s 99 innocent civilians for every 1 terrorist. In what skewed world view is that even slightly proportionate.
There were 280 million civilians in German occupied Europe. German land forces, Wehrmacht & Waffen SS only numbered around 6 million.

That 44 innocent civilians put in harms way by the Allies for every 1 German soldier.

You're right, looking back we should have let Hitler keep what he had.

jfman 06-12-2023 14:34
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165923)
There were 280 million civilians in German occupied Europe. German land forces, Wehrmacht & Waffen SS only numbered around 6 million.

That 44 innocent civilians put in harms way by the Allies for every 1 German soldier.

You're right, looking back we should have let Hitler keep what he had.
Did we raze German occupied Europe to the ground? My World War 2 is a bit hazy. Being significantly larger space likely reduced the risk.

Pierre 06-12-2023 14:47
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165924)
Did we raze German occupied Europe to the ground?.
Much of it, yes.

jfman 06-12-2023 14:55
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165925)
Much of it, yes.
Did we kill 1% of the civilian population in 60 days?

Pierre 06-12-2023 15:08
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165926)
Did we kill 1% of the civilian population in 60 days?
Don't think they managed to do it that quickly, but they managed 7% in total.

about 140,000 of the Gazan population.

But that's looking at the whole European theatre.

When you look at specifics, like Dresden for example, we managed to kill 5% of that population in 2 days, and we weren't even going after military targets.

Sephiroth 06-12-2023 15:19
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165926)
Did we kill 1% of the civilian population in 60 days?
Your scrabbling for justifications now.

TheDaddy 06-12-2023 15:35
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165927)
Don't think they managed to do it that quickly, but they managed 7% in total.

about 140,000 of the Gazan population.

But that's looking at the whole European theatre.

When you look at specifics, like Dresden for example, we managed to kill 5% of that population in 2 days, and we weren't even going after military targets.
That's Dresden that would almost certainly be a war crime if perpetrated today and before we had international laws designed to prevent things like that from happening

1andrew1 06-12-2023 15:41
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36165934)
That's Dresden that would almost certainly be a war crime if perpetrated today and before we had international laws designed to prevent things like that from happening
Indeed, we should be living in more civilised times than World War II, a war which began 84 years ago!

jfman 06-12-2023 15:48
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36165929)
Your scrabbling for justifications now.
I’m not scrambling to justify anything, it is you who are clutching at straws to justify an indefensible action by any standards of modern warfare.

Sephiroth 06-12-2023 15:56
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36165937)
Indeed, we should be living in more civilised times than World War II, a war which began 84 years ago!
If only that had applied to Hamas.

---------- Post added at 15:56 ---------- Previous post was at 15:52 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165938)
I’m not scrambling to justify anything, it is you who are clutching at straws to justify an indefensible action by any standards of modern warfare.
And what standards of modern warfare did Hamas meet?

Pierre 06-12-2023 16:03
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36165934)
That's Dresden that would almost certainly be a war crime if perpetrated today and before we had international laws designed to prevent things like that from happening
I'm just pointing out, that war is war. This war no worse or better than any other war.

jfman 06-12-2023 16:26
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165947)
I'm just pointing out, that war is war. This war no worse or better than any other war.
It’s not war is war when Hamas are out raping folk though is it? It’s oh that’s terrible

Pierre 06-12-2023 16:52
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36165949)
It’s not war is war when Hamas are out raping folk though is it? It’s oh that’s terrible
Because that was a terrorist attack, directly targeting civilians, the result was Israel declaring war on Hamas to eliminate them.

Similarly 9/11 was a terrorist attack, directly targeting civilians, the result was the invasion of Afghanistan under UN charter to eliminate Al-Qaeda.

in both cases terrorist groups are the objective, in both cases civilian collateral deaths. You can argue invading Afghanistan was equally unjustified but not single out Israel

jfman 06-12-2023 17:00
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36165957)
Because that was a terrorist attack, directly targeting civilians, the result was Israel declaring war on Hamas.

Similarly 9/11 was a terrorist attack, directly targeting civilians, the result was the invasion of Afghanistan under UN charter to eliminate Al-Qaeda.
It’s a completely arbitrary distinction. You’re determining that Israel can play by one set of rules (or actually, not play by them) legitimately yet Hamas can't. Yesterday they were the de-facto Palestinian government now they aren’t.

The Taliban were active in shielding Al Queda in Afghanistan in a way that Hamas aren’t in Gaza. Although 20 years on I’d imagine Israel’s actions will be equally as futile as America removing the Taliban, or indeed the proxy war in the Ukraine/Russia disputed territory.


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