Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Mind the glory days when Old Boy told us trade with China is the future.

Well I give you the Telecommunications (Security) Bill.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The key words being ‘the way the Northern Ireland Protocol is currently operating’. The EU is clearly not helping to make this agreement work.

Contrast this with the flexibility just shown to the French fishermen in the Jersey dispute. It was discovered in those talks that the French authorities had not told the fishermen about the documentation required so they have now been advised and given extra time to comply. Now that’s the friendly and co-operative approach.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You are quoting "a pan-European survey of more than 15,000 people in 11 countries", not any EU politicians. They are reflecting on the previous 4 years of "USA First" and almost Isolationism, and fear a return to that sort of approach again.

---------- Post added at 19:21 ---------- Previous post was at 19:17 ----------

Got a link for that, please?

All I can did is this

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Here you are, took 2 minutes....

EU sanctions against Russia - https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/p...kraine-crisis/

EU China agreement aims to;

• improve investment for European and Chinese investors by creating investment rights and guaranteeing non-discrimination
• improve transparency, licensing and authorisation procedures
• provide a high and balanced level of protection for investors and investments, and;
• put in place rules on environmental and labour-related aspects of foreign investment

Check out the huge list of anti-dumping measures in place - https://trade.ec.europa.eu/tdi/notices.cfm China features very heavily.

Of course, there have been proposals to put anti-dumping measures for steel against China for some time but these were vetoed by the UK. Basically, the UK sold Tata Steel in South Wales down the river.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

:clap::clap::clap:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

:clap::clap::clap:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Your big picture is our small picture. ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If I was Putin, it would be better to have the West arguing against itself and to remove gunboats to the Channel Islands that normally face off against the Russian navy. The motivation's there, the investigation's not. Strange that. ;)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9636241.html

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I cannot find a link that states the French authorities failed to tell the protesting fishermen about the new rules - I think I picked that up from a news bulletin, either on the BBC or Sky.

However, my point was that we are making serious attempts to resolve this crisis (as shown in the link below) whereas we have had nothing but obstruction from the EU in getting the NI border sorted out.

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-05-05/...ing-rights-row

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So are you expecting the UK to be tougher now with China and Russia now we have left?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Do you disagree with Barnier's statement?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'm confused, we are pussy footing around China and Russia but shouldn't be firmer at the same time.

As I said before, the EU wanted to up tariffs on Chinese steel to protect domestic industries but the UK vetoed that

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The only cohesive argument I can deduce from Seph's posts is that the UK was right to leave the EU as this would allow the EU can take stronger sanctions against other countries without fear of the UK blocking them, as it has done previously.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

All I am getting is that if the UK and EU make the same decision, the UK is good and EU is bad but please educate me.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Handy hint - others can make an judgement if your (or anyone else's) observations are "fairly balanced", not you; you (or anyone else) making a comment/observations are biased towards the view you/they are putting forward, otherwise, why would they put it forward?

It's also called "marking your own homework*"...

*The expression implies that whenever a person or group self-assesses and/or self regulates their own work they will usually treat it more favorably than if it were assessed by an independent person or group.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Ask away....

Is the EU perfect? No. Is there a danger of a large union being sluggish and not dynamic due to many vested interests? Yes. The vaccines issue was a good example of where the EU fails by having multiple levels of drug regulation and trying to get a consensus on things in a rapidly changing environment.

BUT...

Is international cooperation and ease of doing business a good thing? Yes. Are there sacrifices to be made to create a level playing field across a large region? Yes Are those sacrifices worth it? Yes. Does freedom of movement create opportunities for my kids? Yes. Does insularity benefit us individually and as a country? No.

Things are not black and white even if some try to make things that way - UK good, EU bad, full stop. There are shades of grey.

So, in summary, is the EU wonderful? No. Was it the least worst option available at when a decision needed to made between leave and remain? Yes

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

mansplaining from a horse ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Pretty much my views too, for what it's worth. ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Dude, I’m not the one indulging in self-praise. :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

??

And from December

"To know thyself is the beginning of wisdom.”

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

He does have form in trawling the archives............

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You say it, you own it…;)

❄️

---------- Post added at 12:52 ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 ----------

I didn't have to "trawl" anything - I remembered it, because I commented on it at the time….

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

A letter from the Home Office arrived this morning asking the missus if she wants to stay in the UK !!!

She applied to stay as we arrived in the UK from our French wedding in 1986, and she received a letter granting "Permanent Right To Remain". But apparently that is no longer valid?

So we've done the application online, and now have to send her French ID card to them within 30 days (last day for application is the mid-June for all EU citizens in the UK).

But her ID has expired on the card, so we’ve had to add the letter from the Consulate that all IDs have been granted 15 years validity due to covid-19.

Luckily I kept the "Permanent Right To Remain" letter, so have a copy for them.

After she is allowed to stay, we then have to start the process for the twins as it's a grey area!!!!!!

35 minutes on hold to their helpline then cut off. Now it just says "we're busy" and cuts off.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

This must be very unsettling for you all Taf. Hopefully it's all just a paper pushing exercise and your wife and sons will get their permanent rights to remain without having to wait too long.

Jo xx

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I've spent an hour dredging through all the guff on the gov.uk site.
She still has the Right to Remain, but the application allows her to apply for "Settled Status" so can leave the UK for up to 5 years and return with no problems. Their letter to us didn't mention that.

I actually found an online help link on the gov.uk site (very well hidden)to ask the questions instead of listening to the "hold" music forever and ever.

The twins' status depends on what letter Lunar Hose sent her giving the Right to Reside. Someone told me that there was a legal challenge to the wording of one version, meaning they would have to apply in their own rights for citizenship.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

@Taf >, I worked for the Civil Service for a good few years and I never got to grips with the bureaucracy that mired down even the simplest processes. I suspect you are not the only family in this position, maybe you can find more helpful information on a discussion site/forum.

This seems to bring a few sites up. https://www.google.com/search?q=I+ne...4dUDCAk&uact=5

This link seems informative. https://immigrationbarrister.co.uk/a...-applications/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Ditto, a techie branch, but still riddled with bureaucracy...

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Interesting Cabinet split over a proposed trade deal with Australia with zero tariffs

Pro camp are Trade (Liz Truss and David Frost)

Their arguments:
- If you can't get a good deal with Australia then you can't get a deal with anyone
- A deal would signify support for Australia which has a trade row with China
- It could aid the UK's bid to join the Trans-Pacific Trade Partnership.

Anti camp are Agriculture (George Eustice and Michael Gove)

Their arguments:
- Michael Gove has promised that farmers would not be worse off due to Brexit. This would make some worse off.
- Lamb farmers, predominantly in Wales and Scotland, would be some of those worse off from the deal encouraging the independence vote.
- Trade will pnly be worth 0.01-0.02% of GDP over 15 years so is not worth sacrificing British farming for

Something needs to be decided before June's G7 summit in Cornwall, which Australia’s PM should be attending.

See https://www.ft.com/content/8c5f7a0c-...e-fe721dc08701 or Google "UK government split over Australia trade deal"

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Can I take it that, from the 'Against' arguments, our farmers can produce enough without needing any from Australia . . . or anywhere else?

. . . or is it just more crap with people spouting figures that look good to the 'anti everything' brigade :p:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The Aussies have economies of scale with their industrial mega-ranches covering thousands of acres, making it much cheaper to produce the meat (including export costs) - our farmers couldn’t match their lower prices (currently there are tariffs on Oz meat being imported).

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Hard to believe a leg of lamb is cheaper coming all the way from Australia.

Until you factor in the big supermarket chains doing really cheap deals on volume, they'll cut anybodies throat for an extra 2p profit

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

To be fair, the tariffs on Aussie products are simply carried over from the EU tariff regime rather than reflecting deliberate UK government policy. As presently constituted, they may or may not be useful to us - just because they suited EU protectionism doesn’t mean we necessarily have to continue the same way.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

NZ and Aus lamb have been imported for years, perhaps in lesser numbers while we were in the EU.
The biggest difference between their lamb product and the UK's is that the lambs are slaughtered at an earlier age meaning the chops and joints are smaller than UK lamb.
For lamb product the UK farmers can easily compete with them.
Never had to deal with Aus beef when I was a butcher as most of the competition came from Argentina when I was in the trade.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

but . . but . . all those cattle are part of the global warming problem ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Interesting statistic in that report - Oz beef herd population of 28 million (vs U.K. beef herd population of 1.45 million).

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

A very recent survey concluded that currently, nobody gives a flying..............

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

except the farmers…

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/busines...e-deal-7982092

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...farms-bus.html

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I did read the full article - the28 million figure was on the last page, before the appendix sales pitch…

The lower grade beef could be sold to U.K. ready meal/burger producers.

What do you think U.K. farmers should do?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Well there seems to be no point bothering with cattle.
The Australians will undercut them on prices, and the Supermarket chains are killing them on the price for milk production.

Probably best if they give up farming, and sell the land for housing or solar power sites.

. . or just plant thousands of trees and keep the environmentalists happy

Chickens are a big thing, although 462 acres of free range chickens won't be easy to manage :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So let me get this right. Australia has and still produces 28 million (tons?) of beef and it is all now coming to the UK. Does that include the year on year production for all the time we have been in the EU or just mean they are not going to sell to anyone else and just flood our market?
Australian production just as ours depends on the market available. They are producing for the already available market and would have to increase to supply us.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Great report. I doubt the key points have changed but a heads-up it is ten years old.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That's what Patrick Minford said, that farming will have to be sacrificed for brexit

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

By that reasoning, our shipbuilding, steel-making, coal mining, and textile making industries are all still thriving…

If they can make more profit selling here versus some of their existing markets (which may have price constraints/tariffs), why wouldn’t they? (for example, China has a 12% tariff on Oz beef, and exports to the China and the USA fell).

https://www.beefcentral.com/trade/20...illion-tonnes/

---------- Post added at 07:49 ---------- Previous post was at 07:34 ----------

Could you clarify that, please, as I’m not sure what you mean?

Would the the supermarkets not be going for at least the same (if not more) mark up?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

All this about us having to take US beef filled with crap and Chlorinated Chicken is BS.

They can sell it here, but we don't have to buy it.

I buy all the food in my household and I buy British meat 100% of the time.

So when we don't buy it they will stop selling it.


Listening to Adrian Chiles this morning he was talking to a Lamb farmer, and they said their biggest problem is the false rubbish said by vegan groups.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If you're buying in a pub or kebab van, the country of origin is not usually disclosed.

The lamb farmer's biggest problem at the moment may be veganism but the debate is not about the now, it's about the future if we did agree an FTA with Australia.

If you saw my post from a few days ago on this when I outlined the two factions in the Cabinet, you will have read Michael Gove's concerns about the impact on farmers in Scotland and Wales and how it might encourage independence.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

And how exactly would independence help farmers, or indeed anybody else. in Scotland and Wales.:rolleyes: Eg They would automatically face tariffs for exporting to England and everywhere else.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I suggest you share you insights with Michael Gove. He might equally ask you "How does putting farmers predominantly in Wales and Scotland out of work make the case for the Union?"

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

And how exactly would England no longer propping them up, keep them in work or anything else?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Michael Gove's concerns were about the impact of the deal on Scottish and Welsh farmers and how something potentially negative imposed on them by Westminster encourages independence. It doesn't take much imagination to understand that he may have a point.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Your talking bs, the American lobby groups have seen to it already, they won't have to lable it

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Seems to me having a southern hemisphere source of meat would be good to continue proper seasonal supply.


The Welsh hill lamb is later in season than the English and low land lamb, then we can look at hogart and mutton too. All following in season, then we bring in NZ lamb while we aren't using ours. Can we do the same with beef? With care and the right deal(s) we get and maybe provide better seasonal produce.


That said once the big retail boys get their finger in it just becomes a numbers thing and smaller producers lose out as they nearly always have done. So buy your meat locally from farm shops, farmers markets etc check providence. It's likely to be better and probably not more expensive than the supermarkets. But then I like spending time buying my meat and others don't or can't.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

How was previously having the EU as a tariff-free zone not a problem, but a 15-year phased one with Australia is?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Spot on about the big retail boys tweetiepooh, many of the contracts they have with 'suppliers' is akin to holding a gun at their heads.

I'm sure many have read about the dairy farmers and milk fiasco . . tip of the iceberg :Yes:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

But some pubs/restaurants will say "using local produce"



British food will have the red tractor on it though.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That doesn't contradict what I said.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

They won't when they see the price, even Australian farmers can't compete with American because they don't care about hygiene, working conditions or pretty much anything else and I wouldn't be so sure about a little red tractor riding to the rescue either, they're so litigious over trade they'll probably say it's unfair competition

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I've no idea where you buy your Christmas Crackers from, but the jokes are absolute shite :dozey:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Or you could educate yourself, 4od The Truth About Chlorinated Chicken is a good place to start

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think I'm fairly well educated, but I think "4od The Truth About Chlorinated Chicken" could catch me out on Blockbusters :shrug: ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

British chickens bath in radox ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Does it help prevent feathers blocking the plug hole? :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If they are washed in chlorine, they are, of course, safe to eat.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The truth about British chicken

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mETGcLPT5x8

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Clearly they're safe, that's why so many Americans die of salmonella and food poisoning each year. There's so many experts on here I might as well save my breath, the question for me is though why they need a wash in chlorine at all, how poor is the hygiene and why are they washing the food with it and not the floors and counters, that's where the cross contamination occurs after all, exactly how bad is it in these factories

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Don't you think much of that relates to households and not factories?
Food can be as clean as it can be . . until you start handling it on dirty surfaces and use dirty utensils . . or don't even cook it properly.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Here is the Beeb's reality check on the subjdct, just so we are all singing from the same hymn book.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47440562

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

We shouldn't sign a trade deal with Australia. :td:

They had a chance to show they wanted one last night, but like our European foes, they gave us nothing in the Eurovision and left us behind that children's woke anthem from Germany. :mad::D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If anything, Eurovision has ALWAYS been a great advert for Brexit. There’s no voting for our neighbours or friends at all. :rolleyes: It’s never been about talent, but politics and has always been cringeworthy Euro Trash.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yes lets over react about the worst pop show on the planet:)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

But it has never been anything to do with the EU. The EBU was formed well before the EU (1950) and has a much wider geographical range, including North Africa and the near East (plus associate members across the world).

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I don't know why we bother to pay all that money for the privilege of being bottom. :shrug:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Plenty of non-EU countries failed to vote for us last night, most likely for the same reasons the EU member states didn't. It was a decent enough song but the performance was awful. James Newman very obviously didn't have the lung capacity or sufficient vocal control to perform live, with no autotune or re-takes. He really should have stuck to songwriting and let someone with a gift for live performance to do the delivery.

The scoreboard followed the same pattern as every year. There's a modest amount of bloc voting amongst certain countries, but there's little evidence of it affecting the top 10 where it is genuinely the songs that best connected with the voting audience and the industry panels that get all the points. If we put in a good song and a good performer and actually made it look like we gave a damn, we would do better. We last seriously tried that when Andrew Lloyd Webber produced one for Jade Ewen in 2009 (and appeared on stage with her, on piano) and we came 5th that year.

Given the pop music heritage this country has, I think to a great extent we're judged against that rather than against other acts on the night. They know we can do better.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

🚨 NEW: If there was a referendum on Britain’s membership of the Eurovision Song Contest, how would you vote?

Leave: 52%
Remain: 48%

Via @YouGov

52/48 again. :rofl:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Chicken doesn't go from the abattoir straight to the plate. There are many places in-between where contamination can take place. If infections are "covered up" by a chlorinated wash, then that means no infections. What is wrong with that?:confused:
No shortage of examples of bad practice at all stages, in the EU and in the UK. Are we really expected to believe there are high standards, fully enforced all across the EU?:rolleyes: Chorine washed chicken from the US is likely to be safer than non-chlorine washed chicken from the likes of Romania.
Link

In other words, prior to any chlorine washing, US chicken is safer than EU chicken. So much for higher EU standards.
So the majority of US chicken isn't chlorine washed in the first place.

Bad abattoir practice doesn't create infections. The infections occur before they reach the abattoir.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think the trouble is entering the Eurovision has now become a bit toxic for a group or singer from Britain. Why risk potential success by entering? And if you do enter an established act, it refocuses Eurovision on being a battle of the bands.

Maybe a British group from the past seeking a re-launch might be the best bet as they would have less to lose but would welcome the exposure for back catalogue sales.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Eurovision is absolute dross imo.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

12 of the 26 finalists aren’t in the EU.

Of the 38 voting countries, 15 are not in the EU

Spain only got 6 points, Germany 3 points, and the Netherlands 11 points - were the EU voters "politicising" their votes as well?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Andreas Michaelis, a German Government official:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

All of which suggests there’s a built-in disadvantage in not competing in the semi final, but also that that disadvantage is not insurmountable if you send a good act with a good song. Four of the free passes languished at the bottom, Italy and France were at the very top.