Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Just more examples of biased opinion which are in no way based upon facts. A bit like the Ambassador's comments in the first place.

Re: [Updated] Boris elected Tory leader
 

No, because in the end, we will get a deal - either a modified withdrawal agreement or an Article 24 agreement. The 'no deal' scenario is leverage - something a lot of people don't seem to be able to grasp.

What about the rest of his list that he read out yesterday afternoon? Anything there you disagree with?

Re: [Updated] Boris elected Tory leader
 

It's hard to disagree with more police, more social care, lower taxes, more spending on education and all fibre internet for every home. That's not policy, they're just aspirations. Anyone can promise more stuff for less money.

How is he going to do it?

Re: [Updated] Boris elected Tory leader
 

Conservatives do not leave the economy in bad shape. That's what Labour does, it is their speciality.

If you are so worried about how Boris will find the money, which he will, why are you and other socialist-minded people not concerned about Labour's plans for our economy? If Corbyn had made the speech Boris did last night, you would have hailed him as our saviour!

Re: [Updated] Boris elected Tory leader
 

That magic money tree comes in handy...

Re: [Updated] Boris elected Tory leader
 

Not something you need to worry about, Damien. Boris is not going to spell everything out in detail so people can take pot shots at him and trip him up.

Cutting taxes leads to complex results, but one thing is for sure - it encourages business and money will come into the country. Investment will thrive.

It's a far better way than Corbyn's plan to simply print money, which will simply raise interest rates exponentially and bring us all to our knees. Just like Venezuala.

---------- Post added at 08:46 ---------- Previous post was at 08:45 ----------

JC knows all about that.

Re: [Updated] Boris elected Tory leader
 

l don't care two hoots about Corbyn but alas its your typical default response to anybody who ask questions to a political apoligist...

Re: [Updated] Boris elected Tory leader
 

If it's like the recent public sector pay rises, it won't need to be paid for at all. With the pay rises, the money is coming from existing budgets, meaning cuts will need to be made elsewhere in each departments budget to cover the costs.

https://www.ft.com/content/9097f36a-...c-fac8325aaa04

Re: [Updated] Boris elected Tory leader
 

We've been through this before. I don't support Corbyn and have been critical of him many times on here. I didn't vote for Labour under him or Ed Miliband. It is dishonest of you to keep trying that deflection. :rolleyes:

Re: [Updated] Boris elected Tory leader
 

No, Den, I am simply highlighting the hypocracy of those who try to pull apart Conservative spending plans arguing they can't afford it while applauding any amount of spending Labourproposes irrespective of whether the money is there.

Conservatives do not blow budgets but Socialists do. I thought we all knew that.

---------- Post added at 09:28 ---------- Previous post was at 09:26 ----------

My comment was relevant. However, if you are not a socialist, my apologies.

Re: [Updated] Boris elected Tory leader
 

:tu:

Re: [Updated] Boris elected Tory leader
 

Well done Bozza, he hasn't pressed that button. Just today to worry about now....

He hasn't really mentioned the major threat to the country, climate change... Not sexy or Brexity enough I guess.

Re: [Updated] Boris elected Tory leader
 

Not surprised after climate terrorists stopped his motorcade yesterday,no one listens when nutters start these stupid protests.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

I'm more interested in what's going to happen with the Iran situation.

Re: [Updated] Boris elected Tory leader
 

Holding hands to block a road is not terrorism.

Re: [Updated] Boris elected Tory leader
 

I'm surprised other international "terrorist" groups have never thought of such a nefarious tactic :rolleyes:

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Theres no terror group blocking the leaders motorcade in that country.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

None in this country either :rolleyes:

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
clearly there is:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

I think terror groups might do a bit more than holding hands to briefly block a road ! Can't see it being a new Isis terror tactic.....

Guess we'll just have to wait for the floods to take effect when the Tory seaside crinklies eventually decide climate change doesn't just affect socialists Cleethorpes first I should think....

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

By your criteria, these people must be terrorists, then... :rolleyes:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ing-bye-bye-eu https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/11...ion-article-50 https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...ad-in-bus-row/

Re: [Updated] Boris elected Tory leader
 

No, but think about all that heat that anarchists holding hands creates! Totally irresponsible with all this global warming. Could this be responsible for those record temperatures today?

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

No it is caused by Bo Jo's hot head.

Re: [Updated] Boris elected Tory leader
 

You'll probably find those record temperatures are a result of the long term upward trend which is only going to get worse thanks to you climate change deniers.

Re: [Updated] Boris elected Tory leader
 

The fact that these temperature records keep being broken repeatedly in recent years, or that the sea keeps rising might be a clue to those that find it hard doing thinking.....

Anyway,, an interesting view on Bozza from across the he pond...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9020711.html

Re: [Updated] Boris elected Tory leader
 

If it means having a few decent weeks in summer I don’t mind pushing it down the list a few places.

---------- Post added at 21:04 ---------- Previous post was at 21:01 ----------

MSNBC about as level headed and fair and balanced as Fox..........


Anyway todays exploits in the commons were highly entertaining.

Re: [Updated] Boris elected Tory leader
 

Point proved about those unable to do thinking ! The Commons isn't there for entertainment, and when climate suddenly does become the no 1 priority it'll be too late, - it probably already is tbh. Deal or no deal, Brexit will be irrelevant.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Great comment in the FT from "FFD"
https://www.ft.com/content/aa7b97fa-...0-530adfa879c2

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

And all the hot air that comes out of his mouth at PMQ's.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

It doesn't mean they found the terms acceptable. It was the only deal on offer.

---------- Post added at 22:42 ---------- Previous post was at 22:41 ----------

Did you actually watch it on Thursday. What bits did you find unpalatable?

Re: [Updated] Boris elected Tory leader
 

What country do you live in again?

PMQ’s ( although this wasn’t that, but as good as), is a partially scripted performance from both sides, to ensure they get their scripted statements delivered and published on social media tout suite.

I didn’t realise you were so naive Mr K, would you like me to explain other stuff to you.....Father Christmas isn’t real you know, and wrestling slightly fake too.

They should bring back deal or no deal. You could be a banker.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

I listened to some of it. He's full of bluster and rambling metaphors. Didn't answer most of Corbyns questions (especially the one about capital punishment).

Some of his suggestions e.g. old age care were good, however the finer detail was conspicously lacking. If Corbyn had suggested spending half as much as Bojo's ideas will cost there'd be people saying he'll turn us into Venezuela.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Why is it funny?

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

No one has said it is funny. It's interesting how so many people in the Cabinet who said yes to the agreement now find it unacceptable. ;)

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Really?

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

"Funny" clearly = strange in the contex it was writtent.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

And?

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Interesting, in that this is how cabinet government is supposed to work. The Brexit shenanigans of the last few months have perhaps made us forget that cabinet is supposed to debate and agree a position on something and then all members of the cabinet unite behind it in public, as the jointly agreed position, regardless of what their personal views on it were.

Government cannot function if there are constant abstentions, briefings and rebellions on issues that are supposed to be agreed and promoted by cabinet.

On rare occasions, when a prime minister is exceptionally powerful - being, for example, newly installed as a result of a general election or a members leadership ballot - then the PM has the personal authority to do what Boris has just done, namely to put together an entirely new cabinet with job offers explicitly contingent on the platform he has just won on, namely Brexit on 31 October, come hell or high water.

Even then, however, it is not surprising that individuals who previously backed the WA are calling it unacceptable now. That is the agreed cabinet position, and that is how cabinet is supposed to work.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

The whole lot :D... strange how 28 of the 32 cabinet members have changed their minds... I suppose we have to wait and see what Bo Jo's Flying Circus turns up in the days to come.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

There weren't exactly many other options available. Maybe, now there will be.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Like disaster or utter disaster?

The EU haven't blinked and we keep repeatedly blinking. 27 versus 1, you work out the odds.....

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

I’ve had the odd private message inviting me to re-enter discussion (I’m saving it for October) but everything is going according to plan from where I’m sitting. :)

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Don't really want to get side-tracked but from a point of accuracy, I should point out that there's one less option available now.
Let's save ourselves for October/November on this debate though. ;)

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

What happens if there is a significant event before then? Will this place allow discussion before then?

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Andrew is not in chanrge of any discussions on this forum.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Hopefully, sooner rather tnan later. To exclude the subject from being debated from a current affairs forum seems perverse, but we only have ourselves to blame for constantly harking back to the same old circular arguments instead of looking forward to how we make this work.

As far as Boris is concerned, I was really impressed with his performance on Thursday in the House of Commons. I hope the sceptics on here watched that, as it should put many minds at rest in terms of his capabilities.

If you missed it, take a look on the BBC Parliament channel on the BBC i-Player. If you have any concerns about Boris, this may help to assuage them.

The refreshing thing for me was that he was able to convey his plans for moving us forward in terms of matters that have been neglected in recent times, such as police numbers and adult social care.

It should be an interesting Conservative Party Conference this year.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

OB, I salute you! :clap:

Regards your "circular arguments" argument, I feel this is a more an issue of moderation than content. If someone just posts to wind people up, the post should be called out. If someone feels they have to respond to an unjust or childish post, then this should be judged in context.

I feel that Johnson should be judged by the same standards that Corbyn is/was. When Labour proposed a number of spending initiatives, they were accused of having a magic money even though (and I may be wrong on this), their proposals were independently costed. So far, Johnson has waved his arms around and promised this, that and the other with no details on how they would be funded. You must apply the same rules here.

As to his plans, so far he has just said things (his) people want to hear. Easy to say but not to do. Let's get more flesh on the bones and see how he reconciles his populist aspirations with the real world implementation.

---------- Post added at 22:18 ---------- Previous post was at 22:18 ----------

but he does, so far at least, have the ability to express an opinion

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Well, thank you for your unexpected compliment. I shall treasure that, as I think this is a massive one-off! ;)

I don't think the comparison between Johnson and Corbyn as you set out is fair. The reason people criticise Labour spending proposals is that in the past, they have been uncosted, and following criticism on these grounds, they now clarify that they will fund their expenditure by increased taxation and printing money.

When Conservatives have spending plans they always know how they will be funded, and that's why they are not questioned so closely on their spending proposals.Many on the socialist side do not understand that increasing taxes on the rich actually reduces our prosperity.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Except... it’s not actually true.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/investo.../#3d2a9e9f7c3e

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Define "rich"?

Are you talking about wealth, income, or both, and if so, what levels?

Also, you may find this informative

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/07/tax_cuts.asp

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

It's complicated, and as an economist yourself, you will know this.

I will not bore forum readers with arguments about actual and desired investment levels, etc, but what I will say is that if tax reductions are accompanied by the right policies, they will have a favourable impact on the economy.

It has worked for the Conservatives in the UK before and it will do so again.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Please do bore us with the detail. Especially any graphs you can find to support it.

I’m not disputing a tax bribe can be politically expedient for a political party - that’s a different point altogether.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Recent UK history proves the point - I am not playing that game.

I know that air is breathable and sustains life because I breathe it. I don't have to prove it with scientific detail.

You may wish to, of course, but I can't be arsed with trying to prove what people already know.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

You aren't playing the game of evidencing your own posts? :confused:

People don't already know this - like trickle down economics it's an often mentioned little evidenced theory to promote reducing the state and privatising profits as opposed to seeing that reinvested into our communities or infrastructure.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Do you mean the recent UK history where higher tax rate payers took the bonuses early to avoid the introduction of 50%higher rate, thus spiking the revenue that year and lowering it the following year? (the tax revenue went back up the following years...).

Some people "know" the Earth is flat - doesn’t make it true...

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

If the lowest possible rate (0%) maximised total tax payments and the highest possible rate (100%) minimised them then governments would set them all at 0%.
The truth is that the rate that maximises total tax payments is somewhere between 0% and 100%. But to continuously cut taxes won't increase the tax return as logic suggests you will end up charging no tax whatsover!

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Anyway, back to previous question - what’s your definition of "rich"?

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

You will be waiting a long time for him to answer that question so perhaps this might answer your question.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15822595

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Being in the higher tax bracket doesn’t make you rich.

I live from month to month, use my overdraft and have nothing left for savings for myself.

I have a nice house, a nice car ( which is now 9 years old), 2 young kids that I need to save for should they go to Uni or to give them a head start.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Now there's an example of where you pay either way.

Further education could (some say should?) be state funded. You're saving, and if your kids go to Uni they'll come out 60 grand down.

For someone else it might be rail fares. Or personal care for the elderly (although we all like being socialist in death - nobody wants to sell their home to fund that!).

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Some pay extortionate amounts for rail fares but they have no choice as its the only way they can get to work but it takes a fair chunk out of their monthly salary.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Have to disagree - I have no issue our house being sold to pay for care; why should others pay if we have assets?

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

OK, don’t...

I don’t think others "avoid" assets to have their care paid for - they often don’t have the assets, or had the opportunity to get those assets in the first place.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Someone has to pay somewhere. I think we're going to have to have an additional tax or 'social care pension' to pay for our old age care. Remember it's only going to get worse as people live longer.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

But politician's for many years have kicked the can down the road and when the Conservatives planned a new social care policy which was so labelled the dementia tax it was extremely unpopular.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Spending fundamentally employs people.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Sounds like BoJo with his money tree. Another £300m to butter up the devolved nations, £1bn more to be spent on consultants for Brexit no-deal preparations.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Well, since 65% of employees earn less than the U.K. average wage (just under £30k), probably not that many...

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

The money tree is Labour's illusion. Conservatives don't spend money they don't have or that cannot be sourced from somewhere.

Having said that, it seems that Labour do have a plan this time. They will just print as much money as they need! Now, why has no-one else thought of that wheeze?

Oh, yes, they have. It was Venezuala, wasn't it? :p:

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

But again where is the money Boris Johnson needs coming to come from? He is talking about funding social care without using people's assets, that alone will be a massive yearly cost running billions and billions. More Police. More spending on education and this Manchester-Leeds trainline.

All good ideas but it's a huge amount of money.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Your first statement is an out and out lie. Thatcher ran a budget deficit for a decade. Major for almost his entire Government and every single year since the Coalition took power.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

And no one who had a mortgage during the major government will ever forget how fiscally responsible they were, they were unelectable for a generation thanks to that but why let that stop anyone comparing us to a dirt poor south american armpit

---------- Post added at 15:32 ---------- Previous post was at 15:31 ----------

It trickles one way and it ain't down

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

And left the economy in a better state than they found it. Don't forget, the Callaghan Government left us almost bankrupt. Just like the Blair/Brown Government that followed. Same old story. Same old Labour.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

That's subjective, but also not the point you made the first time! You out and out blagged a lie that was demonstrably false and hoped nobody would call you on it.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Handbags at dawn girls?

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

It’s not fully costed and never has been. Saddling future generations with the national debt isn’t exactly fiscal responsibility, nor is selling the state assets to balance the books, neither is PFI. Blair/Brown just as complicit before anyone points that out.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

If only the spell that Boris weaves over some of the UK population could be woven over Sterling. Maybe it just needs to believe more? Unpatriotic pesky currency!
https://www.ft.com/content/c240ccda-...2-799a3a8cf37b

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Surely all Sterling needs is to "go the extra thousand miles", and the other currencies be more willing to negotiate?

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

It just has to believe in itself.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

project fear oh hang on just wait to we get cliff edge

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Become an FT subscriber to read:
Sterling tumbles to two-year low as market fears grow over no-deal Brexit

Trial
Not sure which package to choose? Try full access for 4 weeks
£1.00 for 4 weeks*

Digital
Be informed with the essential news and opinion
£5.35 per week*

OR
Premium Digital
All the essentials plus deeper insights and analysis
£9.00 per week*

OR
Team or Enterprise
Premium FT.com access for multiple users, with integrations & admin tools
Pay based on use


Can we ban Links to pay sites? ;)

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

If you want to read the full article, you can do so by Googling the headline.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

No it isn’t, unless you can evidence labour left it in a better state?

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Was it in a better state in 2010 than 1997? GDP per capita would say so. However it almost always says that over the long term. Which is why it’s subjective, how people and communities experience it varies.

What can be tangibly proven is that Conservative governments have consistent run budget deficits despite selling the family silver, privatising profits and underwriting capitalist failure at taxpayers expense. Which is where we started this off.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

In both 1979 and 2010, the incoming Conservative (or Conservative-led) governments were told by Labour that there was no money left. Gordon Brown raided our pensions and sold off our gold reserves.

The Callaghan government succeeded only in running the country into the ground.

Says it all, really, no matter how you prefer to spin it.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

None of that detracts from your false claims that Conservative governments fully cost expenditure is 100% false.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Well, Labour funded their debt via borrowing. The money does come from somewhere.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Usually the peoples pockets.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

It all comes from the 'people's pockets' including debt repayments. Boris' spending pledges will come from the people's pockets even if it's not the people voting for them but the generations that follow.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Where does it come from? Consistently posting budget deficits year after year doesn’t suggest the books are balanced. Year after year despite massive privatisation is just kicking the can down the road for future generations.

It’s a big pozni scheme, both Conservative and New Labour. Eventually someone has to pay under any system.

---------- Post added at 17:22 ---------- Previous post was at 17:20 ----------

Debt repayments, bank bailouts, collapsed pension schemes.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

OB said expenditure was fully costed or the money "found from somewhere". Expenditure isn't fully costed in any such way at all, hence consistent budget defecits throughout Conservative governments since 1979.

As the country hasn't yet defaulted on any debts since 1932 - the same imaginary "found from somewhere" could be used to justify excessive Labour spending.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

I don't get the entire point of the discussion if just taking on debt counts as being costed.

Re: [Update 2] PM Boris forms a government
 

I think you miss the point unless you agree OB is a liar.

Rather strong point to take as part of the mod team IMHO.