Re: Brexit (New).
 

To be strictly accurate, the Queen does not "take advice", she is told what to say by the Executive. Anything else where the Crown might ignore the will of the elected Government would constitute a constitutional crisis.

There may be theoretical powers that are historical anachronisms but they would never be used in practice.

Re: Brexit (New).
 

My point is more that the Queen doing what she is told by the Executive works on the assumption they have the support of Parliament. A Government that doesn't have the support of Parliament but is still going is a not a scenario I think our system envisions.

Re: Brexit (New).
 

The powers of the Monarch are purely symbolic nowadays. The Queen still has a place as the "Head" of the Country due to the billions of £'s drawn into the Country through tourism, etc.

Re: Brexit (New).
 

Agreed ..

---------- Post added at 22:01 ---------- Previous post was at 21:57 ----------

You make a good point. I wonder when the last time the Executive was so powerless and riven? I think TM's powers of perspective have failed her. She has only one role really: to lead & represent a Cabinet, operating ideally on a basis of collective responsibility.

Once this M.O. breaks down then she and her Cabinet are surely no longer fit for purpose?

Re: Brexit
 

Not quite. They aren’t symbolic; they’re very real. They are, however, only exercised on advice (the conferring of the Order of Merit is an extremely rare exception). The monarch avoids a constitutional crisis by respecting a convention, not by obeying a law.

The powers of the sovereign have effectively been brought under democratic control because they are exercised by, or on the advice of, an Executive which is drawn from, and answerable to, our elected Parliament.

However, it is a delicious irony that our last line of defence against tyranny is that there is no law any government can usurp to give itself absolute power, because power has never been stripped from the Crown.

Re: Brexit
 

Parliament just beheaded it instead.:D:D:D

Re: Brexit
 

I dispute how many of those billions are directly attributable to them, people would still come, Versailles gets more visitors and there's nothing in there, especially not even a whiff of a royal

And then restored it, the institution that is not the head that was beyond sticking back on by the time thet got round to it and to quote Blackadder it had gone green

Re: Brexit
 

Meanwhile the open civil war in Theresa Mays cabinet goes on unabated...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...et-rift-widens

Re: Brexit
 

Eurovision SHOCK as Britain will LEAVE song contest after Brexit


FEARS Britain was to be BANNED from the Eurovision Song Contest were growing today after the body governing the quality of European pop music warned hard Brexit might mean GB’s Eurovision exit.



https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/11...ews-eurovision

Re: Brexit
 

Russia isn't in the EU.....More fake news?

Re: Brexit
 

Crap April fools attempt? (by the Express, not yourself i hasten to add)

Re: Brexit
 

True, and that was the one period of history when Parliament actually did strip the Crown of its powers ... but when Charles II was returned from exile and made King, all the Acts of Parliament passed under the Protectorate were declared invalid. Legally, it is as if it never happened. :spin:

Re: Brexit
 

It's all true read this.

The Paris-based L’Institute de Eurovision Song - the pan-European body governing the continent’s pop output - warned leaving the EU could mean Great Britain’s glorious Eurovision history might come to an end. Britain’s Eurovision efforts have long been enjoyed across the continent and the nations has likewise enjoyed scrupulously fair adjudication at the hands of the Eurovision judges. Vaya Mentira, chief executive of LIES, said: “It has with a heavy heart that we have decided Britain should no longer compete in Eurovision.

Re: Brexit
 

Mmmm, the Queen all getting a bit desperate, suppose she's more reliable than JRM though ...

---------- Post added at 09:48 ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 ----------

Good and predictable to see them tearing each other apart. Only positive from Brexit.

Re: Brexit
 

ummm it's not....

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...-best-14216917

Re: Brexit
 

Actually thats the sort of crap that could change the great unwashed vote. They care not or understand the Custom union, single market, but a camp phone in TV vote show we must have ! The Express want to be careful with their April fools...

Re: Brexit
 

Israel are in it haha. I thought the only rule was to be a PAL territory as opposed to NTSC.

Re: Brexit (New).
 

I think it's there to stop any absurd or immoral laws being passed, the last safety valve in the procedure if you like.

---------- Post added at 12:07 ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 ----------

So a Government couldn't pass a law that abolished elections and kept them in power indefinitely. I assume that Hitler did something along these lines??

Re: Brexit
 

I like the fact they went the extra mile with Vaya Mentira, the Chief Executive of 'LIES' translates from Spanish as 'that is a lie'.

Nice work!

Re: Brexit
 

Chief whip attacks cabinet's post-election Brexit strategy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47768884

Re: Brexit
 

A little montage for you, also puts and end to the argument that we weren’t told what would happen. Also shows just how much it is Labour that have done the biggest about turn on the issue.

https://www.facebook.com/49146379769...271698?sfns=mo

Re: Brexit
 

Popcorn time as Labour to whip for Common Market 2.0. SNP supporting as their preference is to remain, but want this kept on the table. Win or lose it’s still going to be carnage.

Re: Brexit
 

Both parties equally culpable for the chaos that has ensued with both split from top to bottom with a never ending civil war..

Re: Brexit
 

In their defence the split in the parties reflects the split in the country.

Re: Brexit
 

True but will we ever have a end to this chaos..

Re: Brexit
 

Not until one side is let down badly, unfortunately!

Re: Brexit
 

The next general election when it happens is going to be very interesting as there will be quite a few prominent incumbents of their comfortable seats starting to have sleepless nights no doubt.

Re: Brexit
 

Depends when it is I suppose. If its 2022 a lot of the tension could have died down. Folk will move on to other issues that irritate them.

Re: Brexit
 

And there are certainly a lot of other issues they are upset about.

Re: Brexit
 

Interestingly Farage has described all four options as remain. Not actually true - a second referendum could result in no deal.

Unless deep down he’s accepting the game is up and that, either through having to obey electoral laws or demographic change, people will vote remain. Interesting concession from a man who made so much profit from his biggest one.

Re: Brexit
 

Government authorises spending on contingency planning for UK to hold European elections.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...votes-live-new

Re: Brexit
 

There will be an awful lot of anger remaining if the electorate's decision has not been carried out (which includes a 'soft' Brexit, which is not Brexit at all, of course).

---------- Post added at 19:04 ---------- Previous post was at 19:02 ----------

I wouldn't read anything into that, except that the necessary preparations have to be made in case the worst happens. I am still clinging to the hope that the politicians will at last remember the manifestos they stood on.

Re: Brexit
 

The electorate's decision was not for a hard or soft Brexit. It was just for Brexit so there's no of course. For every Leave supporter who feels like you do, there's probably at least one who doesn't.

Re: Brexit
 

Several Tory MP's already very unhappy.

Re: Brexit
 

We just voted to leave. A soft Brexit is not that at all. The problem is that if you dilute a straight Brexit, you lose some of its benefits. Those who complain that we would be worse off if we leave the EU are trying to make this the case by trying to keep us in the customs union, in which case we cannot negotiate our own trade deals. That was one of the major incentives to leave, along with controlling our borders and regaining our sovereignty. These advantages were clearly stated by the Leave campaigners.

By keeping us in the customs union we would be worse off than we are now, with no control over the legislation and tariffs that would still apply to us. It's a crazy, misguided idea.

Re: Brexit
 

A soft Brexit meets the definition of leave. Even ardent Brexiteers held up Norway as a possible future model. It’s a misrepresentation of reality to say otherwise.

Re: Brexit
 

Exactly. The fact that it's got Brexit in the title indicates that it's a form of Brexit.

Re: Brexit
 

The defence minister Tobias Ellwood told Channel 4 News he thought MPs were coalescing around a customs union. “I think that’s where we are heading towards,” he said. When it was put to him that this would go against the Conservative party manifesto, he said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...votes-live-new

Re: Brexit
 

Sam Coates of The Times.

‏

Re: Brexit
 

I have just deleted a ton of tiresome old arguments/posts that quite frankly I am sick of reading again and again and again.

What was on the ballot paper is an old tiresome argument.

What people were voting for in 2016 Referendum, is a tiresome old argument.

and finally I do not want to see ever, other members insulting other members or calling them names, this is not acceptable under any circumstances.

.

---------- Post added at 21:59 ---------- Previous post was at 21:04 ----------

Indicative Vote Results due Imminently.

Re: Brexit
 

All indicative options voted down.

Re: Brexit
 

The results are in - All options fail again

Motion C: Ken Clarke's Customs Union

Ayes - 273

Noes - 276

Motion D - Nick Boles' Common Market 2.0

Ayes - 261

Noes 282

Motion E - Peter Kyle's people's vote

Ayes - 280

Noes - 292

Motion G - Joanna Cherry's revocation

Ayes - 191

Noes - 292

Re: Brexit
 

No deal back on the table as the default option.

Re: Brexit
 

So one expects the PM to bring it back to the Commons for a 4th time and lose again.

Nick Boles has resigned the Conservative whip.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...votes-live-new

Re: Brexit
 

Nick Boles told commons he can no long sit as a conservative

Re: Brexit
 

He was on his way out anyway.

Re: Brexit
 

More resignations coming l suspect in these coming days.

Re: Brexit
 

But not the one that matters.

Re: Brexit
 

Well we shall see what transpires by the end of the week.

Re: Brexit
 

it does matter if more resign the whip they lose majority and a general election will happen soon

Re: Brexit
 

Not sure that many in the country want another General Election.

Re: Brexit
 

We’re a bit of a joke really

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

agree as it wont solve the Brexit crisis and both main parties very split and bad as each other

Re: Brexit
 

Indeed a total laughing stock..

Re: Brexit
 

Least of all the Conservative Party with Jeremy Corbyn's popularity rising!

Re: Brexit
 

You sure about that?

Re: Brexit
 

Another day, another trundle along the road of the can.

See you all tomorrow night when we can enjoy MV4 getting crushed. I think that’s the one thing that unites us all, albeit from different viewpoints (it’s too Brexity/not Brexity enough).

Re: Brexit
 

BREAKING: Nick Boles to sit as an Independent, not joining TIG or Change UK, or whatever they like to call themselves today.

Re: Brexit
 

Yup, discussed before in this thread.

---------- Post added at 22:42 ---------- Previous post was at 22:39 ----------

If only I could get a non-British passport. The political daftness since the Brexit vote makes me embarrassed to be British.

Re: Brexit
 

I’m sure the fact he has a spine means he doesn’t qualify for the invertebrate group.

---------- Post added at 22:52 ---------- Previous post was at 22:43 ----------

I’m sure we can all live without debating whether statistics is a science or voodoo all over again.

Re: Brexit
 

They're trying again on Wednesday. Last chance for these people to prove their not entirely useless.

Re: Brexit
 

I wouldn’t say last chance. I can see this going to next week.

That said there’s a lot of anger at PV MPs who didn’t back CM 2.0, this could see the latter make a breakthrough. Let’s face it, if they want to avoid Brexit altogether really CM 2.0 is a heavily diluted version vs the alternative of no deal or May’s deal.

Re: Brexit
 

Not one of the indicative votes had any relation to Brexit. Any one of them would leave us subserviant to the EU in one way or another.

Re: Brexit
 

A trade deal with a larger entity like the USA would do the same. Chlorinated chicken etc.

Re: Brexit
 

Yeh. OK then. Don't forget we'd have to eat dog meat and cat meat from asian countries and horsemeat from France if we got a trade deal from the EU.

Re: Brexit
 

I think you've missed April Fool's by a good few hours mate. Lol, where are you getting this stuff from?

---------- Post added at 23:59 ---------- Previous post was at 23:56 ----------

Incorrect, not just the particular form of Brexit you favour.

---------- Post added 02-04-2019 at 00:02 ---------- Previous post was 01-04-2019 at 23:59 ----------

lol, I think the temptation to rerun is not just confined to Theresa May.

Re: Brexit
 

Jeremy Corbyn is a terrible leader of the Labour party but even a terrible leader to many in this country might be more edifying then a deeply destructive internecine perpetual civil war in the Conservative party when it comes to the ballot box come election time.

Voters don't like deeply disunited political parties.

---------- Post added at 05:21 ---------- Previous post was at 05:13 ----------

The thing is the government party is so deeply eaten up by Brexit then nothing else seems to matter in this country like important policy decisions and if a political party just ignores those important policy decisions voters notice and become increasingly unhappy and come to the conclusion that this government does not care about anything else so they end up voting them out on their Jack Jones.

Re: Brexit
 

Pathetic. Mays deal is a whole bag of compromise.

Re: Brexit
 

They need to change the voting system to a ranked/AV system for, what has to be, the final round of this nonsense if they're going to get anywhere.

---------- Post added at 08:12 ---------- Previous post was at 07:36 ----------

I am not sure it's much of a compromise but at least it's managed and orderly with a transition period and a commitment to a future relationship. At the moment it's the only realistic option since Parliament are just being extraordinarily pathetic.

Re: Brexit
 

In fairness to him, he voted for it every time.

I’m sure he’s referring to members of his party who didn’t vote for it and, mistakenly, believe they can achieve no deal by doing so.

Re: Brexit
 

No no,
No no no no,
No no no no,
No no,
No consensus ...

So much for Parliament taking control.

Of all the votes held so far, the one with the most positive support was not-quite MV3, with 286 votes.

Surely it’s deal or no deal now.

Re: Brexit
 

Philip Hammond will propose putting Theresa May’s deal to the country in a second referendum, according to reports this morning.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...77d2f95a200d96

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-election.html

Re: Brexit
 

Philip Hammond is a remainer through and through, who hates the idea of leaving, and loathes the idea of leaving without a deal.

He seems not to have noticed that a confirmatory referendum has been proposed to parliament twice in the last week, and was rejected both times.

Re: Brexit
 

This is slightly different though. That’s Parliament trying to fudge the question, and take advantage of splits in Government and on the Leave side. In almost every case May’s deal wouldn’t make the ballot paper.

Hammond’s proposals makes it Government policy to support May’s deal in the referendum. It allows her to defend it to the people and emphasise it meets her six(?) red lines.

Re: Brexit
 

In the context of everything else that has just happened, it’s is just a delaying tactic, and possibly a final throw of the dice aimed at stopping Brexit altogether - the proof of that will be in whether his proposal suggests Remain as a ballot option, in which case regardless of how it’s sold, it will turn into a re-run of 2016.

Amidst all the navel-gazing on this side of the channel, there seems to be little understanding that all that is on the table is Deal, No Deal or No Brexit. A choice for Deal extends the A50 deadline to May. No Deal occurs by default next week. The only way to get an extension beyond May is with a clear set of proposals to do something different. Given the parliamentary pantomime of the last week, who in the EU would believe any plan May put forwards? They simply don’t believe she can get anything past the Commons.

Re: Brexit
 

Parliament doesn't seem to want any kind of deal. All ideas have been rejected.

They have one more chance to look again at TM's deal. If they vote that down we just need to let 'no deal' happen and get on with it.

Cancelling Brexit would cause uproar, so 'no deal' is the only alternative.

And on 13 April, everyone will look up at the sky and wonder why it hasn't caved in. Future prosperity will suddenly beckon. :D

Re: Brexit
 

Parliament resoundingly rejected “no deal”, it’s by far the least popular option. No point in wrecking the country because they can’t agree.

---------- Post added at 09:31 ---------- Previous post was at 09:28 ----------

On the contrary - I think Hammond is making the last throw of the dice for leaving. Every other leave option will get obliterated at the polls.

May’s deal, with the Government media machine in operation, can inform leave and remain voters it addresses many of their concerns about EU exit. For those sick of it, it offers finality.

Re: Brexit
 

But as said many times, it is not in Parliaments power. The only way Parliament can take control and stop no deal is by either revoking A50, or accepting the deal.

Otherwise it is up to the EU.

If the WA is rejected a 4th time, I don’t see what can be done. We can’t go back to EU and ask for more time, for what? Parliament have proven that there is no consensus for an alternative. So why would the EU be inclined to give us more time?

Only the prospect of them not getting their money, is the only reason. Which tells you all you need to know.

Re: Brexit
 

There’s a misunderstanding of what is (and isn’t) in the control of Parliament. At all costs Parliament can prevent no deal with a vote of no confidence, put a unity candidate up for her Maj to appoint (to entend) then vote themselves out again for a general election.

Parliament holds all the cards. The legal default position didn’t last on March 29th and will not on April 12th.

It is up to the EU, but they’ve nothing to lose and everything to gain by extending.

Re: Brexit
 

The thinking from the EU is that if we don't pay the money it'll only be attached a pre-condition to the future relationship anyway. So I am not sure how strong a motivation that'll be to them.

All this aside I wonder how mentally MPs are handling all this. Reports of them shouting at each other in corridors, people resigning in the middle of the commons, some MPs not going to their actual homes due to security concerns, a deluge of threats and anger all at a time they having to make a decision which'll have ramifications for a long time under the intense deadline and pressure.

Re: Brexit
 

Some interesting thoughts by David Davis..

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...o-eu-live-news

Re: Brexit
 

Absolute nonsense. Parliament cannot prevent no deal-The date didn’t last because the Government changed that date in law. There is no method to put in or appoint a Unity Government, there is no way the Queen would simply appoint a Government in such an undemocratic and unconstitutional way.

We need to get on with leaving the EU as Democratically decided and stop all these bullshit coups to scupper the people’s decision to leave the corrupted EU.

Re: Brexit
 

Mick, I know you disagree but the Government put forward he extension to save it’s skin. It will continue to do so.

The Queen is constitutionally obliged to appoint a PM that commands the confidence of the house. If that’s a Grieve or Letwin type character delivering a second referendum then there’s the rub. Corbyn gets to slam the Tories and stay out of it anyway.

We need a second decisive referendum. Or a general election.

Re: Brexit
 

Wouldn't the method be the current government is brought down in a vote of no confidence and a new government, built of a coalition in Parliament, can pass a Queens Speech?

The Queen has to appoint a Prime Minister who can command the confidence of Parliament. By what authority would she not? That is the constitutional way governments are formed.

Re: Brexit
 

We should take Brexit away from Parliament and put it into the hands of a train franchise

if we're going to miss deadlines let's do it using professionals

Re: Brexit
 

The Queen appoints a new PM on the advice of the old one, not Parliament. The old PM’s job is to advise who is likely to command the confidence of parliament. There exists no procedure whereby parliament can intervene in the process directly.

Re: Brexit
 

My view is that May's deal does not commit us to a specific future relationship. So pass her deal, everyone take a breather and calm down then call an election with party's explaining their version of the next deal.

---------- Post added at 11:16 ---------- Previous post was at 11:15 ----------

Ok but then surely by convention the old PM just recommends whomever now commands the confidence of the house no?

Re: Brexit
 

This from the BBC’s Laura Kuenssberg.

Re: Brexit
 

Yes, but that’s not the point that was being floated earlier.

Parliament cannot take control of that process. It can’t go to the Palace and advise Her Maj that May no longer has their confidence and such and such a person does. Only May can do that.

Re: Brexit
 

Except that it won't wreck the country.

Theresa is in a bind and she has convinced herself that she will not let the people down in respect of the referendum decision. If parliament won't agree on anything, no deal will just happen with no further action required.

And the sky really won't fall in. That's a promise!

---------- Post added at 12:16 ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 ----------

Parliament does not hold all the cards. You seem to forget that the Government will win a no confidence vote as there is an agreement on that with the DUP.

---------- Post added at 12:22 ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 ----------

Except that it does, perversely, commit us to a backstop, which is the main reason the deal isn't going through.

It is crazy that a transitional arrangement can commit parties to a permanent arrangement, isn't it?

Re: Brexit
 

Yet there’s not a credible economic forecast to suggest it will not be bad. Even such ideologically opposes bodies as the TUC and the CBI agree on this. Bad for workers, bad for business. Good for disaster capitalists and the USA.

400 MPs are against no deal. You are assuming we exist in normal circumstances. We don’t. This isn’t another policy area shuffling deckchairs around on the Titanic. This is having sight of the iceberg and choosing to avoid it.

Re: Brexit
 

If I was the Queen I’d dissolve the whole of parliament due to no confidence.

Re: Brexit
 

Given the choice, Parliament would indeed continue to vote against No Deal. There is however the very real possibility that the choice is about to be taken off them. A long extension was always contingent on there being a credible strategy that required a long extension to implement. There is no credible strategy, and that isn’t all Teresa May’s fault; Parliament has made a complete exhibition of itself over the last week. There is no strategy and no sign of one emerging. As things stand right now, the EU has the power to watch us sail over the edge on 12 April, and it may just have grown tired enough of the process to allow it to happen.

This I suspect is the ERG’s strategy. The British political establishment won’t ever choose No Deal, but, once they’re as prepared as they can be, the European one just might.

Re: Brexit
 

oh please let this be the outcome. Extension after extension does nobody any favours (apart from the obvious).

If the EU decide to 'let us go' it may even look like we were 'kicked out' to some, so let's all hold hands and jump before being pushed

Re: Brexit
 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...rticle-50-bill

Here we go!

Re: Brexit
 

A bill that forces the PM to propose an extension to A50 is a waste of time. There’s little doubt she would do so anyway. The question now is at what point the EU decides to cash in and choose No Deal over an extension without a strategy, which is the precondition Barnier has repeatedly stated over the last couple of weeks.

Re: Brexit
 

Quotes from Oliver Letwin.

Re: Brexit
 

£39bn remember. The EU budget is approved til 2021. Can easily keep us in limbo to pay the bills.

---------- Post added at 13:43 ---------- Previous post was at 13:32 ----------

If it flounders in the Lords it deepens the constitutional crisis. That’s all a “win” at this stage.

Re: Brexit
 

The Lords rejecting a bill does not precipitate a constitutional crisis. Even their sending it back with unhelpful amendments would not do so. They are constitutionally entitled to do so and their mode of operation is set down in statute. If they are repeatedly obstructive the Parliament Act is used to bypass them.

Cooper’s bill will most likely founder for lack of time, which is a precious commodity for non-Government bills.