re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I saw in the Spectator that one idea the Remain campaign has is to offer, in law, a referendum on Turkish accession to the EU should they ever get that far. The UK is going referendum crazy!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Being a Scot living in NE England and an independence man, I fail to see why they would want independence from the UK but not from the EU. Crazy or what. I m a gready sod, I want both.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Or looking at it the other way - the majority of people are happy with the major parties being pro-european (major referring to the number of returned candidates not votes cast). So when the choice on membership is offered every few years the electorate is happy with their European lot. Your argument could easily be applied to any policy in the governing parties manifesto, which kind of negates it as serious.

Cheers

Grim

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

No it doesn't. The prominence given to various policies in the manifesto, and the campaign effort made in the weeks prior to an election, tell you which policies are the priority for each party. The way the electorate votes tells you which of the main policy offerings they are attracted to.

Your arguments constantly try to turn electoral reality on its head. The EU has simply not been a high enough priority for voters for you to be able to read anything about it into the results of any past general election.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There is no choice, they're all pro European and have been for about 40 years. Except for UKIP and I voted for them.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well the EU has kindly agreed to let the UK dispense with the Tampon Tax so I think I'll vote to stay in now...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35834142

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Looks like Euro-Out Tory MPs were going to rebel on this to help their campaign so I guess it's a quick bit of work to head that off. Of course if it's just a day after the budget you would think Osbourne would have announced this then accompanied with a bit of theatrical flourish. Odd.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I wonder if we're going to see a much needed but extremely short lived* outbreak of common sense within the EU?

* until July.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I have a feeling they may come out with a few little teasers to manipulate a remain vote. Don't be fooled!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Is the EU deal with Turkey Legal?

I and others don't think so. You just can't turn back someone seeking asylum. Do we really want to be part of an organisation who doesn't know international law?

Say NO to the EU and avoid an overflow to Britain. They have to go somewhere and Turkey can only take so many!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Hopefully some good person might do a poll for staying in or out on this forum.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think we might do a couple of opinion polls when we get nearer the date, a bit like we do with general elections.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If we leave will I have to pay out for a new passport..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Don't know, socks will defiantly cost you more though

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...linked-EU.html

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Nope. It's a British passport, despite being defaced by Euro-guff, and it was issued by the UK Passport Agency.

However, with any luck, the proper black passport will be phased back in, once we're out of the EU.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What about the socks?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Linky

Looks like Dave's in hot water with the party. :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The Tory Party may not recover from this. Not only are they in the preverbial over the EU but on Disability Benefits. Ian Duncan-Smith has already resigned, wonder who's next? Osbourne or Cameron Himself? We can but hope

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Taxpayers Set to Pay £371 Million a WEEK to Brussels For Next Five Years

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Never mind, just look at all the wonderful things we get back in return. :rolleyes:

All other arguments aside, I can't understand why anyone in the UK would want to hand more power and more of our money to the EU. We've had decades of trying to reform this giant political amoeba and got nowhere It truly does beggar belief. :spin:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

But before you vote "out", don't forget that if we leave the EU, horrible things might happen. All sorts of specific things may come to pass....so we're better off staying in.....'cos then at least we know for sure just how screwed we are. :dozey:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think that's wishful thinking on your part, Cameron's already said he'll step down before the next GE so plans will already be afoot for the next Leader.
Lets not forget too while Corbys top dog in Labour that's a big no-no.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

And they will pay for this by cutting our DLA/PIP. Shame on them! Vote Leave for a better future.

There was a Tory on the news this morning, Laura something or other, saying the Outers have spent the money we'd save many fold. I ask you, how do these people get the jobs? Doesn't she realise that it's not spending it many fold, it's suggestions of what could be done with the money?

If anyone is up and about just now, Ian Duncan-Smith is on the Andrew Marr show today. Should be an interesting watch.

---------- Post added at 08:28 ---------- Previous post was at 07:52 ----------

That's for sure. and I totally agree here. For 40 years we've tried to reform the EU and been outvoted each time. Just what makes Cameron think the next 40 years would be any different. There was a stat that says 40 things we put before the EU regarding reform were voted down.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well, turkeys don't vote for Christmas do they...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I know this. What I meant was sooner rather than later.

---------- Post added at 07:25 ---------- Previous post was at 06:57 ----------

The C.B.I. have come out with figures saying if we leave the EU we will damage the economy by £100 bn. and that 900,000 jobs would go (BBC NEWS). How do they know this? Do they have access to figures the Government don't even have? Where do the figures come from? I believe it's a worse case scenario they are using in order to manipulate a remain vote. The Chancellor is doing a pretty good job of wrecking the economy without being out of the EU. He's missed all his targets and grossly overestimated his figures. Now it's worse as it's reported that the cuts to disability benefits are to be scrapped. Where does he get the money now?

Do these people really believe that remaining in the EU is going to help this situation? Do they really believe that remaining is a vote for the status quo or that they think they have reformed it? Cameron refers to the vote as remaining in a 'reformed EU'. Has it been reformed?

Of course there are risks leaving the EU but remember that Cameron and the Bank of England state that the UK can thrive outside the EU! Remember too that there are also risks by staying in the EU! Turkey, for example. Another 75 million people with the freedom to move around where they want will cause massive problems.

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/exp...ncludes-Turkey

Sounds frightening but then again, don't the EU want to send these poor migrants back to Turkey? What will happen is they will all end up there and that could add another 5 million to that figure. How many of those will end up in Britain?

This is just one example of a very serious risk of remaining in the EU and I'm sure I can find a lot more just like it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

‘Victory’ On The Tampon Tax? Don’t Be So Sure…:dozey:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The CBI were the same organisation that claimed not joining the Euro would be a disaster:

Linky

They have no credibility IMHO.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

They're just doing what they think serves their members best as opposed to what's best for the country and its people.

Let nobody think the EU has our interests at heart any more than we have theirs. They'd rather like the UK to carry on putting vastly more in the we're getting out whilst denying us any of the significant reform we've argued for. They're banking on the electorate being too scared to go it alone which is why they've offered sweet FA by way of real concessions and change. Let's be honest, who wouldn't like to have a club member who pays in more than 99% of the other members do, gets less out, is routinely ignored at the highest level and keeps coming back for more of the same old, same old?...

Like it or not, the only way we can have a meaningful and fair trading relationship with the EU is to call their bluff, get out and let them see how life is without the UK's contribution to their club. I believe we'll have more clout outside than inside because the EU has become accustomed to shafting us while we bend over and ask for more.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm still waiting for some people in favour of staying to speak up and put their reasoning forward so as to offer an alternative pov

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Don't hold your breath. :D

All they have is project fear: Don't let go of nurse, for fear of finding something worse.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Couldn't have put it better myself. Without the UK I believe the EU is doomed, not that it isn't anyway but I mean the end will come quicker without us. What will they do if we leave? Perhaps they will increase the other members donations. If we leave they will be falling over themselves to get a good and fair trade agreement with the UK to try and save their sorry arses.

---------- Post added at 11:54 ---------- Previous post was at 11:49 ----------

Can't see that happening. All they can do is spread doom and gloom.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Me too. I'd love to be told just how much we benefit from the EU's political dogma, never ending quest for control and one size fits all obsession. They plough on from one crisis to another not only learning nothing but seemingly intent on making matters worse.

For me, whatever the benefits of being part of the club are (and they're clearly far greater for some members than others), they're far outweighed by the financial and other costs of staying in. That'd be true if the EU wasn't heading towards the edge of a precipice but since I believe it is, it's an even more powerful reason for getting out before we're further dragged into chaos with it.

Make no mistake, the costs of the growing migrant crisis are already huge and are only going to get bigger - economically and socially. If we stay in, one way or another, directly or indirectly we're going to be required to pay for Merkel's madness and the EU's inability to see beyond the end of its nose.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Do you mean on here or generally because there are quite a few pro-EU posts on this thread it's just that the forum skews anti-EU so that is more prevalent.


I am the second most frequent poster: http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/mi...ted&t=33700839

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Ok, to redress the balance ;) :-

The problem for out is they have to persuade people how much better things would be outside the EU; even if they do, it's asking people to take a chance/risk. So far it's mainly been how terrible the EU is, not much positive about the alternative.

People know what life inside the EU is like, far from perfect, but relatively stable. Leaving is a gamble and, when it comes to it, people don't like gambles and uncertainty, particularly if it affects jobs and their own prosperity. The outers do tend to me more vocal and certain which might give an skewed view on the state of play. Those that are going to vote to remain are the apathetic silent majority, who probably haven't actually decided they are going to vote that way yet. Past elections and referendums have shown that this group end up voting for 'no change' as the safe option.

The only way i can see an 'out' vote is if there's a low turn out with the apathetic majority not bothering./ or people don't vote on the issue but on the popularity of the Govt. Given that all the main political parties/business/unions will be campaigning for 'in'; and the dangers of 'out' for the next 3 months, I can't see anything else but a remain vote.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

But you fail to spell out the "advantages" you see in staying in. Only the fear factor of leaving just like all the pro EU'ers.

Because there is no good argument to staying in the burning building and locking the door.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think there is a question people will ask of what in their day-to-day life would be made better by leaving the EU and is that worth the risk/uncertainty?

There are a lot of questions about what happens next if we leave. What kind of trade deals would we get? Would the service industry be affected? How long will we be in the state of not knowing, 2 years?

If you're asking someone to disrupt the status-quo in a system in which they're relatively alright then I think you need a less abstract reward than 'sovereignty'.

---------- Post added at 14:08 ---------- Previous post was at 13:59 ----------

If your argument is that changing the status-quo will make matters worse then that's going to be a fearful argument but it doesn't mean it's invalid. The same was said in the Scottish Referendum, it was all 'Project Fear', but it turns out that some of that scaremongering became true.

Brexit doesn't have the moral high ground here anyway. You've linked stories about witches coming to the UK and ISIS terrorists flooding in from a newly admitted Turkey.

I didn't see everyone on here condemning the Tory election campaign for whipping up fears of a Labour-SNP alliance against Scotland or Miliband 'stabbing the country in the back' either. Not sure where this sudden offence at using fear/uncertainty to win an election comes from but it's been otherwise absent until now.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The advantages are already proven: - free trade, more jobs, low prices, freedom to work in the EU, bigger say on european issues, workers rights.

The advantages of Brexit are an unproved risk.

Leaving would be a disaster. For a start the stock market would spiral downwards hitting most of the populations pensions and investments. That in itself is enough to scare most off - not that that's a positive reason, but it's what people vote on.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

OK. Fair enough it's a risk. However let's clear up a few things here. Only 5% of business actually trade with the EU. That 5% could easily trade on the world stage. For example how about turning the tables and dumping our steel cheaper on the EU?

Next, as pointed out in an earlier post, Britain is set to pay £375 million a week to the EU by 2020. How many Doctors, Nurses or Hospitals will that employ and build. How much could that money improve the Road and Rail Network?

Next. As you are aware the Government want to abolish the Tampon Tax and the proposed Solar Panel Tax. They can't. It has to be done by the EU Parliament. Why not take back the right to do these things for ourselves?

Finally. What a pessimistic outlook you have there. I've given 3 damn good reasons for voting out.

---------- Post added at 14:39 ---------- Previous post was at 14:29 ----------

To Answer Damien's first point the first thing that will be noticeable is we won't have to go to the EU to change things that are better for the UK. The next thing is we will probably see more money ploughed into the NHS.

Negotiations will begin immediately with the EU on Trade. The EU can't survive without the UK and will be very accommodating regarding trade deals.

Now I don't believe it can get any worse than the status quo. What won't happen if we stay is reform. The EU will be hoping we stay so they don't have to reform. This will stop the others who are murmuring about having their own referenda. If the EU give us reforms then others will hold referenda and threaten to leave.

With the Election tactics in mind, they will use the very same tactics to try to force a Remain vote. Yes, the worrying thing is that people are afraid of change.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There's one great big, undeniable and increasingly serious risk and that's staying in. Why would anyone choose to stay in a bus being driven towards a cliff by a committee of myopic fools arguing the toss about who's in control.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yet the "stay in" camp are being accused of "Project Fear"... ;);)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Free trade doesn't require membership of the political union.

'More jobs' requires a fair amount more explanation. I'm not aware of any research that links our membership of the political structures of the EU with more jobs, beyond those dependent on the bureaucracy of course.

'Low prices' - on what? Certainly not on products purchased from outside the customs union, those are more expensive due to the tariffs we're obliged to apply in order to protect uncompetitive European producers.

Freedom of movement is indeed an advantage although of course people can and do work in other countries without being in political union with them.

Obviously we would lose our say in European issues, however they wouldn't for the most part be our issues anymore as we wouldn't have to abide by these European decisions.

Workers' rights gets down to another issue. We're a democracy and if we want those and other rights it's simple, we vote for those who will provide them. If others already voted for try and take them away we ensure that they understand this would be a bad idea for their re-election prospects.

If we regard it as a good thing that the EU can overrule our Parliament on the grounds that you or others may like what they have to say some of the time we may as well not bother with democracy at all. Democracy rarely pleases everyone all the time.

As far as unproven risks go what is very clear is that the EU is warming up to hit us with a series of unpopular measures as soon as the referendum is done. That's no unproven risk; the budget is going up, we're going to be paying more of it, unpopular measures are being held back until after our vote. Even things like the rather laughable concessions Cameron won or the 'tampon tax' change can easily be prevented. Especially the 'tampon tax' change, which it seems is a non-starter beyond scoring political points for Cameron and in turn the remain campaign.

So with those in mind still waiting for that positive case. I'm yet to hear anything that suggests political union is a good idea.

If I may ask you something - where are all the other 'Unions' in the world? How come the 500-ish million of us are the only ones who've enacted a political union? Do we know something the rest of the world doesn't? Looking at how the European and especially Eurozone economy is performing compared to the rest of the world I can't say the economics of our decision are clear.

Watching things like this I can't say it seems to be good for international relations either.

EDIT: On your point on the stock market it's a bubble-icious QE-pumped mess, blown up by corporations borrowing to buy back their own shares and large quantities of corporate and private debt. Pensions and investments are already delivering poor returns due to ZIRP. Out of every period of uncertainty come winners and losers and something of an economic reset may actually be beneficial beyond the immediate term.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well at least our 'fear' is based on what's actually happened over the last few decades and the refusal of the Eurocrats to get to grips with it or change direction. Frankly, given all that, I'm less frightened by the prospect of the UK charting its own course than relying on those whose political dogma, intransigence and Magoo-like vision has steered us here. ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I can't think of a single thing that this country could not do outside of the EU .Everything from taxation to trade,manufacturing standards to employment law ,nothing in our day to day lives requires us to be in the EU .We can manage perfectly outside of the EU just as most of the world manages outside of the EU .

Correction, there is one thing that we will no longer be able to do and that is blame the EU when our useless politicians make a hash of things .Being outside the EU may in fact make our politicians more accountable when it finally sinks home that the buck stops with them

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

None of these things is proven. All of them is a comparative with the UK's alternative status outside the EU, and as you say we can't know what that would be like, we can't know whether prices are lower, jobs are more plentiful etc etc inside the EU than outside.

Negotiating a relationship with the EU, having just dumped the relationship we already had, is, naturally, a risk, however the status quo is untenable. The price we pay for the (supposed) benefits of membership is simply too high.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6942846.html

The loss of £3,700 per household and almost a million jobs -worth it?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What utter twaddle and you've swallowed it hook line and sinker. :rolleyes:

That figure assumes a doomsday scenario that will never come to pass.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What on earth makes you think that is actually going to happen.

I watched that report on the BBC this morning and exactly the same figures where used by the Brexit spokesperson an hour later to "prove" we would be better out of the EU

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think everyone thinks that their doom scenario is more likely than their opponents doom scenario. The question is if it's fair to invoke scaremongering or not.

I think it's fine. You play the game you've been given and dire warnings do work. We saw that in the general election and the Scottish referendum. It may not be debate we want to see but high minded debate is less effective.

What I do dislike though is one side accusing the other of fear mongering and doing the same themselves. There is plenty of scaremongering from both sides. Doesn't mean that it's all false either.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Freedom of Movement is a myth as far as we are concerned. We are free to move in the EU, they are NOT free to move in and out of the UK Because we still control who comes in.

---------- Post added at 18:31 ---------- Previous post was at 18:29 ----------

Where is the proof this will happen? No one knows what the cost of leaving will be but we sure as hell know the cost of staying in - £375 million per week going to the EU.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That's not true - being outside Schengen means we can check their passports, it doesn't mean we can stop them coming in. The rules of free movement very much do apply at our borders, which is part of the problem we now face.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

this will be the "project fear" that bozza was talking about no one is falling for it but you;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This from the same organisation that has produced research such as a claim that each UK household benefits to the tune of 3k per year from the EU, duly exposed as nonsensical here.

This looks like it comes out with that same kind of figure and it's still bovine excreta. We can all take some evidence, add a few assumptions, take on some worst and best case scenarios as we need to and come out with the result we were commissioned to. It doesn't make it any less worthless.

The CBI was wrong on Euro membership, they did this same nonsense then, and there's little evidence they are doing anything besides repeating the same propaganda exercise again. They are a joke.

---------- Post added at 19:08 ---------- Previous post was at 19:04 ----------

We are subject to passport checks in the EU, they are subject to passport checks on our borders as we're not in Schengen.

Doesn't change that we're absolutely a part of free movement, and have no special controls over who comes in from the EU.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Dave was misquoting a 16 year old report the other day stating that 3 million jobs depend on trade with Europe, what he didn't say is in the next paragraph of the report it stated there was no reason to expect to lose any of the jobs as the jobs depended on trade with Europe rather than membership of Europe

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That isn't what Cameron said the other day. He said we can refuse whom we like in this country because we don't have Schengen. He also said in the same statement that we can do this because we still control our own borders and have our immigration policy.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It clearly isn't all false, the UK has a great deal of experience at the hands of EU and even more experience of going it alone fairly successfully. I don't know of anyone who believes getting out will be a panacea but virtually all of them believe the EU's undeniable obsession with such things as ever closer union, open borders and a single currency makes staying in the really scary option.

If we stay in we're going to be treated like a spoilt child who made yet another fuss, stamped their feet and threatened to leave home, was given the chance to do so but then didn't because they were too scared to go it alone. Our credibility in the EU and the world will not be improved by staying in, quite the reverse I believe. The only way to reform the EU into what it could and should have been is for the UK to get out and for other countries to then seek their own referenda. Drastic action is required to save Europe from the EU.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'll pitch in here (sorry it's a bit late) I am an 'inner' for both moral serve serving and technical reasons. On the moral side, it cannot be denied that western Europe has gone through an unprecedented period of peace over the last 60 years. Fostering international co-operation surely must be a good thing both then and now. We are not the same country we were 100 years ago - we do not have an empire any more, enforced by guns. We have to work together in a civilised manner.

The European Union gives a formal framework for co-operation between nations. Issues like workers rights pushed through by the EU can only be a good thing. To say we would have had those anyway relies in our government wanting to preserve those rights. It was only a few days ago our government was proposing cutting welfare to disabled people. Would you trust future governments to keep the rights we have now?

This country is 'European' in outlook, like it or not. We are most like the Scandinavians in terms of how our society is run so why not work together?

From a technical level, I work for an international company that deals with the pharmaceutical industry. The difference between exporting to EU and non-EU countries is clear and that includes countries like Norway and Switzerland by the way. In my personal experience, exporting to non-EU countries takes at least 30 minutes of paperwork above exporting within the EU. In the office I work in, almost every country in the EU is represented so we have language coverage and it's a more interesting vibrant place because of it.

In addition, with the pharmaceutical industry, initiatives like the European Medicines Agency simplify medicines regulation, allowing companies to bring new drugs to market more quickly which drives down costs which, in the end, we will be paying for.

There are arguments saying we could have all of the above through trade agreements outside of the EU but, if that's the case, why leave? We would still have to comply with EU standards but have no influence on how those standards are set up.

Is the EU perfect? No, of course not. Is the UK government perfect, also no. The biggest failing of the EU to promote itself is its openness. The EU publishes pretty much everything it does in the spirit of openness so any proposal is 'out there', regardless on whether those ideas will ever become reality. The European Commission is particularly bad for this. It would be like the UK civil service publishing every idea and proposal.

Phew, a bit of a stream of consciousness there! Most of the reasons why I want to stay in are, to some extent self serving but I think the UK is stronger morally, culturally and financially in the EU

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I find it very disappointing that you rate the British government - run by British citizens, who have been elected by British citizens - as being lesser than, and in need of supervision by, a commission of largely foreign civil servants and a parliament (also mostly full of foreigners) which, while elected, has very limited ability to hold the commission to account.

If a British government were to reverse workplace legislation (which is unlikely), then it will have done so with the democratic mandate of the British people. And that, ultimately, is the killer reason for voting out. The British people, and their government, do not need supervision by the European Commisson or anyone else.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That bit of info is very informative.So no reams and reams of extra paperwork/red tape only an extra 30 mins of paperwork to deal with.Hardly Armageddon time.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Given the latest situation in Brussels with 3 attacks in an hour does it not make us a bigger target remaining in the EU? At the moment they seem to be leaving the UK alone and concentrating their efforts on Brussels and Mainland EU. Shouldn't we get out for that reason alone?

---------- Post added at 10:37 ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 ----------

On your first point. There is no evidence that being in the EU has kept the peace for 60 years. There was peace for 20 years on Europe before we joined. This point, though you're entitled to raise it, is a common theme the Inners use.

Your Second Point. This can all be done outside the EU.

Your Third Point is contradictory: How can we be European yet more like Scandinavians? We tried working together for 40 years and it doesn't work unless you are Brussels!

Technical Point of View:

First Point: Depends on the kind of trade agreement we get with the EU.

Second Point: The UK would have it's own body to do this.

Third Point: Do you really believe we have that much influence? Don't forget the last 40 times we have put something forward in the EU it has been rejected 40 times.

Fourth Point: The EU can never be perfect with becoming a United States of Europe. One Currency, one nation. Do you really want to be Governed from Germany financially and Brussels politically?

Correct they are self serving. To hell with what's best for the UK as long as you are al right Jack, eh?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

He addresses this part though. For companies and industries where the current situation is agreeable is it much of an argument to suggest that we may get the same outside the EU?

This is the question I have of the Tech Industry in London who recruit across Europe and which attracts start-ups from across Europe. What will they do? This is one area where freedom of movement and commerce works well.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

We'll train our own people to do the jobs. These people will still be allowed to come and work in the UK. I don't have any problem with that.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If we run our own affairs we can pick and choose those with skills we need and control the numbers we admit. Right now we have little or no control over migration from within the EU, the jobs migrants come here to do and the benefits etc. they can claim. We have undercut out own labour and instead of training more of the people we need, we're choosing to rely on migrants from all around the globe who're more than willing to work for less.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Presumably the same kind of things all the start-ups in Silicon Valley and everywhere else do.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Doesn't make it right though.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

America is a far bigger country but as it happens they're not too happy with their immigration policy either. Still the point remains that for them finding talented staff from a population of 318 million is easier that finding talented staff from a population of 64 million.

We can 'train people up' as suggested previously but we haven't so far that isn't the fault of the European Union although I am sure somebody will find some reason as it why it is.

Our rival for this industry though isn't Silicon Valley, for now, but Berlin and for all the tropes about Britain being great the ability to recruit across Europe and operate across Europe with little friction will be an advantage to them. One of the problems some companies face is that when moving into a new country they need to have a bank account and registered premises in that country. Technologies companies don't really have to work like these if they're not selling services or products with physical components. At the moment pan-European expansion is easy. Making it less so will not help it.

This isn't yet a massive industry for the UK, and it certainly shouldn't be used as a main argument to stay in, but it's an example of some real problems that could come out of it. It's always met with claims that it will be fine, that we've operated outside of Europe before and do what America does (which is expand into Europe slowly and set up a HQ, usually in Dublin, for across the EU). It's not actually clear what would happen practically though about from this mythical trade deal that will cover everything and be in our favor.

We were asking for reasons to stay in and there are real industries that benefit from the EU and real concerns as to what would happen to them.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It is a big deal when you ship over 100,000 orders per year - 50,000 hours :eeek:

---------- Post added at 13:06 ---------- Previous post was at 12:45 ----------

Hey, we can agree to differ, that's democracy. You made some good points but unless we could have a control group in science terms, it's difficult to say for sure that things would be different if we weren't in the EU. I can only work on the evidence I have in front of me. I will try and answer your points;

One the peace front, it's not just me, the Nobel Peace Prize committee agree (awarded from Oslo of course)

Do we need a formal framework for international co-operation? No, but it's easier if we group together with common aims. See United Nations

When I stated we are like Scandinavians, I meant our general outlook is similar to European countries. I feel that we are getting further and further away from the US in our societal outlook. Others may feel different, it could be the environment I work in (a US company with a big UK based headquarters)

On the technical side, 'it depends' is not a convincing answer for me. We do have our own medicines agency (MHRA) but it aligns and influences the European Medicines Agency. See also british standards, etc.

I would be interested to see the 40 proposals rejected if you have them, I wasn't aware of this. It's unusual for one country to 'go solo' and agreements are usually reached at the COREPER stage.

Getting near the end now.... In a global market, and I fail to see any sign of globalisation reducing, decisions made in Brussels, Germany or anywhere else will affect the UK, whether we are a member of the EU or not. See the global financial crisis which kicked off with dodgy mortgage lending in the US. Being in the EU, we can influence as part of a larger trading bloc. We can't influence the Euro and neither should we if we aren't a member of the eurozone.

Finally, aren't all voting decisions at least partially self serving? I wouldn't believe anyone would vote completely altruistically and make themselves significantly worse off. Voting decisions surely are influenced a) by facts and b) by beliefs. I believe that the EU is a force for good. I will be voting in.

If someone wants to vote out, then that's cool, this is a democracy. I just hope that all the facts are presented well in the run in instead of some of the rubbish you see in the press (bendy bananas, banned toasters, etc.)

Gonna drop out of the conversation for now, just wanted to say my piece

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Correct it isn't the fault of the EU but as long as we are in we are NOT training people up.

That's one industry. Others have premises and are registered in other countries, I suggest yours does the same. The only problems created are the ones you create yourself. Other industries have and will make contingency plans.

Only 5% of industry trades with the EU. Or should I say UK business'?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

True but I think even if we did it still would be better to recruit from a much larger pool. Only a small minority of people will ever want to work in such fields.

Mine isn't the problem. That however is an example of where the single market is a benefit and why leaving is an issue. Telling companies to set-up facilities elsewhere and to make contingency plans is a poor argument when there remains the option not to have to do any of this and stay in the EU.

There are many businesses that are pan-European. It's going to be a lot more difficult to detangle than people expect IMO. Trade is not just about shipping cars/equipment around.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

... and that'll be an excellent reason for our former EU partners to expedite matters and facilitate the required change rather than stamp their feet and whine that the UK has dared to leave.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

And under what terms?

Also as I said that for the start-up industry we have rivals in Europe, Berlin especially, and there will be a self-interested motivation for them to put barriers up for services. The recent trade deal with Canada for example excluded Financial Services. I am also unsure the extent to which a single market would require we keep freedom of movement.

The uncertainty of what those terms would be and if their own industry would be ok or not is what will drive some industries to conclude it's better off staying in. Even the administrative actions of having to treat the EU as a different market for which different regulations or legal entities need to be set up wouldn't be welcome.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Under terms that are mutually acceptable. Anything else would be mutually harmful and illogical wouldn't it. If we're saying that there are many complex business links between UK and other EU countries why wouldn't it be in everyone's interests to work to limit the damage of any split on both sides and ensure all required negotiations are conducted as quickly as possible. If barriers are imposed against the UK then clearly the UK would do likewise and the EU would clearly lose far more than we would in that eventuality. Given that the UK is growing and they're not why would they want to add further misery to their existing plight?

Of course you could be right and irrational, almost revenge based decisions may even be made but if that were to happen why would we want to be part of such a club who'd treat an ally and major partner in such a way? The EU is hamstrung by regulation and inherently slow to act/change as has been proved many times before. In what way would an independent UK, unhindered by huge EU regulation and consequently able to react to change within its economy and globally far more quickly than the EU ever could, be at a disadvantage?

Wasn't the speed of reaction and manoeuvrability of Drake's vessels the key to his success against the Spanish Armada? ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I don't think barriers will be set up but they certainly don't have to make it as easy as it is now. Obviously any agreement would have to be mutually acceptable but that doesn't mean the deal will be as good. We could easily end up with less access to the single market than we do now but have a deal that is better than nothing. Instead of free movement, for example, we could trade away services. Let's face it free movement is politically untenable for any Government in the UK to agree too in any negotiation.

Also member that each member state has to agree to the deal. So the fact the EU as a whole exports more to us than we export to them may be meaningless if a lot of countries have their trade deficit the other way around.

We'll also have to start our own trade deals with the nations too and this time with a smaller consumer base to offer those at the other side of the table.

Because pragmatically it's better to do so if the alternative is harmful economically. The EU will have members that act irrationally if we're in or out and so will other trading partners.

I am not arguing we stay in the EU because of the brilliance of their leaders or because I believe in the European ideal. I think we should because the downsides, there are many, are worth it for access to the single market.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The deal wouldn't have to be as good because we'd be saving countless millions by not having to help subsidise the EU as we currently do and because businesses in the UK would no longer be bound by EU rules whether they trade with Europe or not.

Binding ourselves to a stagnating EU will only mean we pay more for the privilege of being in the club whilst at the same time being derided for being there. If the EU wants access to the UK's markets then they'll have to allow us to access theirs and since Germany calls most of the shots I can see the EU tail wagging the German dog for long.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

When we're talking about stuff like that though how much is £10 or so billion in the grand scheme of things? Didn't tax receipts drop like £200 billion in 2008? A quick Google shows that £25 billion was lost because of a projection error. I don't think we would have to see too much of a drop before we've cancelled out the savings even before we take into account that the headline figure doesn't include the subsidies.

Also the companies that trade with the EU will still be bound by their regulations.

Well as I said I think we'll 'have access'. They can't penalize us under WTO rules. It's if the access is as good as it is now that is my concern.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Which is what I meant - right now all UK businesses are bound by rules regardless of whether they trade with the EU and that must impose additional costs etc. which those who don't trade with the EU would otherwise be free of making them more competitive.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Around 60-70% of British economic activity has nothing at all to do with the EU. Releasing the vast majority of British buinesses from ridiculous Euro-regulation will be an extremely good thing.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

K, Sorry.

That's true although it's worth mentioning that soon those regulations will also allow trade with the US and Canada soon enough. It's a fact of trade you need to abide by the regulations of the nation you're important too but for domestic only businesses then that would be a unwelcome intrusion, assuming the UK government would be more lax anyway.

---------- Post added at 15:46 ---------- Previous post was at 15:44 ----------

I misread his post as saying they wouldn't have to abide by it even if they traded with the EU but I was mistaken. Should have known what he meant though since it's unlikely Osem didn't know that. :dunce:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That wasn't fearmongering. It was a statement of fact :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I feel that if we are getting further away from the US it's because they are moving to the right more quickly than we are, rather than our moving away from them and towards Europe.

Look at how extreme many think Jeremy Corbyn's economic policies are. Those wouldn't raise an eyebrow in Scandinavia.

The government want to lower taxation to less than 36.5% of GDP, currently at about 39%. In Sweden that number is 45.8%, 49% in Denmark, 43.6% in Norway.

We don't tolerate taxation above about 40% of GDP in the UK. The idea of paying 45% or 49% is anathema.

---------- Post added at 17:22 ---------- Previous post was at 17:22 ----------

European harmony at work.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The EU has its head in the sand when it comes to problems, even when it admits to a problem it's never the EU at fault.

Like when someone is shot in the head and the autopsy report says (admits) they were shot in the head but then then says they didn't die from the gun shot wound , it was the blood loss that killed them. Yet if they hadn't been shot in the head they wouldn't of died, it's he same with the EU.

Ok if that doesnt make sense..... I KNEW WHAT I MEANT!!!! Lol

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I wonder what would happen if we left and in 5/10 years after our economy is booming how many other will jump the sinking EU ship.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I could see a UK, Germany and France trading bloc. Devil take the rest.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

By then well have a huge market in China and the US

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think if we leave it won't take 5-10 years. Netherlands and I think Denmark are murmuring about having referenda. If we leave the floodgates will open and the lame duck will die. 5 years at the most IMO.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Some interesting reading for you. http://forbritain.org/MEPs%20votes.pdf

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Thanks for this, interesting reading! I have tried to find an apolitical explanation for this as the figures look well sourced. The best I could find was this - http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/20...an-parliament/ His follow up blogs at the bottom of this blog are interesting too

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Latest Poll of Polls has the Leave slightly ahead in the run up to the big day and some are even showing a 2 point lead for a Brexit! Let's hope they don't make a B***s of it like they did in the GE. Haven't posted links cos I've looked at so many. The YouGov one I Believe shows Leave 51% Stay 49% though they have it 50+1 for Leave and 50-1 for Stay.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm not going to take any notice of the polls until just before the referendum. They won't change the way I vote in any event, it'd take a miracle centred on Brussels to do that.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Indeed me too but I can't see that happening.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I suspect most in the 'don't know' category, will choose 'no change' on polling day as the safe option. This is what happened in the GE and Scots referendum.

Bit lousy of the out campaign to try and use the Brussels attacks to their advantage.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35879670
Desperate politics which could backfire.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Why is it ? I don't know about anyone else but i think yesterday was the perfect example why we should get control of our borders back ,it's a bit late for home grown terrorists but allowing terrorists from outside the EU to wonder about freely with no border checks is just plain nuts

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Me too. It's not as though the problems inherent in having no border controls across most of the EU haven't been pointed out over the years is it. It's not like nobody had mentioned any of it until yesterday and the out campaign are now suddenly trying to use this awful tragedy to their advantage. Schengen was always an accident waiting to happen so maybe those who dreamt it up ought to look to themselves for answers.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

As has been previously pointed out, we are not in Schengen', so we have control of our borders - every time I've landed in the UK, I've had to show my passport.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

In or Out of Europe we would still be affected by Europe's border policy (although Schengen seems to be dying). In that respect leaving wouldn't help us. There is an argument that if they were EU citizens then they could come here but it's worth noting that one of the smaller items on Cameron's 'deal' was the ability for the Home Office to block people on national security grounds, no idea how that'll be implemented though.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

However, we are obliged to grant free movement to anyone who rocks up at Dover or Heathrow with an EU passport ... Of the kind a lot of angry young middle eastern men currently claiming asylum in Germany will get, five years from now.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

But stopping someone with an EU passport from entering the UK is problematic at best and currently against their rights as an EU citizen.When we are out of the EU we will be able to stop whoever we like from entering without them crying foul to the EU

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

to an extent we do, yes but not full control. We still have to allow EU citizens Access even if they do have to show a passport.

---------- Post added at 18:29 ---------- Previous post was at 18:27 ----------

It does make a big difference if we're out. We can really tighten up our borders and immigration then.

---------- Post added at 18:33 ---------- Previous post was at 18:29 ----------

The whole point of coming out of the EU was reinforced over the past few days. As Chris says, we are obliged to grant free movement to anyone with an EU Passport. Terrorists have EU passports too. By leaving the EU, we won't be obliged to let them in.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm pretty sure if we know they are terrorists, we would arrest them, EU passports or not.

And if we don't know they are terrorists, will we be stopping everyone with an EU passport from entering the UK?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There is a chance that we may have to accept freedom of movement to reach a certain level of access to the single market....

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Freedom of movement is a dead duck imo ,the influx of terrorists into the EU will ensure that other countries scrap the idea of border less movement ,as they have already started to do