Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35286613)

Yes, having been there you'd know exactly what the place is like :)

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35285800)

This seems like a good idea...

Not sure if it's been posted already:-

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337

Convicted London rioters should loose all benefits. e-petition.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35286720)

This has reached nearly a million signatures.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35286720)

This has reached nearly a million signatures.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35286720)

This has reached nearly a million signatures.

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35286727)

It's nearly a hundred thousand, not a million ... ;)

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35286736)

No, it's near a million.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35286745)

Are you clicking the right one? Because I have seen 997,541, as the figure given and it was also reported on Sky News that it was reaching a million.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35286745)

Are you clicking the right one? Because I have seen 997,541, as the figure given and it was also reported on Sky News that it was reaching a million.

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35286739)

Now who's right you or Chris.;)

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35286764)

The figure I saw:-

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35286769)

And according to this it is nearly a million signatures

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35286769)

And according to this it is nearly a million signatures

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35286773)

Can we officialy class this as a conspiracy now or what? :)

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 35286776)

Or a fantasy ;)

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35286777)

Like this.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2011/08/31.jpg

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35286777)

Like this.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2011/08/31.jpg

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35286778)

Now now Gary lets keep political infighting out of this thread.;)

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35286764)

The figure I saw:-

Originally Posted by Jimmy-J (Post 35286781)

Number of signatures: 99,541

A bad idea if you ask me.

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35284193)

If you carry a gun then you have to accept the consequences of any action the police take. No grey area about it.

Originally Posted by wwe (Post 35286815)

is the spurs vs everton the only game that been called off? due to the riots

Originally Posted by wwe (Post 35286815)

is the spurs vs everton the only game that been called off? due to the riots

Originally Posted by colin25 (Post 35286820)

Cheltenham's League Two match against Swindon has also been postponed.

I thought spurs was only premier league game..but cheltenham's is off too

Originally Posted by devilincarnate (Post 35286824)

Since when were Cheltenham in the premier league:erm::D:D:D

Originally Posted by colin25 (Post 35286831)

lol..bad english..I meant, spurs is the only premier league game off, but there is one other in the lower leagues

Where is cheltenham? :D

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35286803)

It seemed a good idea at first but would probably cause a backlash, that's why I haven't signed it.

Originally Posted by BBC News

Several courts in England will stay open 24 hours a day to fast-track those already in custody for looting and disorder-related offences.

Magistrates in London, Manchester and Solihull were processing some of those arrested over riot-related incidents.

An 11-year-old girl and a primary school worker have already appeared in court. One man has been jailed for eight months for stealing clothes.

David Cameron said courts would continue to sit through the night.

The total number of people arrested over the riots stands at more than 1,300.

(snip)

Originally Posted by BBC News

Westminster Magistrates' Court has been working round the clock to help deal with the 922 arrested and 401 charged over the London riots. Here's a snapshot of proceedings.

Saffron Armstrong tried to explain that he had gone into a looted computer store because he was inquisitive - and a freelance journalist.

This drew sniggers from the press bench, but not from district judge Elizabeth Roscoe, who told him he faced a prison sentence.

The 22-year-old pleaded guilty to burglary after being arrested in a PC World store in Colliers Wood, south London, the day after it was hit by looters.

The accounting student from Mitcham, who also worked for Marks and Spencer, was remorseful and admitted his intentions had "not been for the best".

It was a pattern which was repeated throughout the morning as defendants including students, an estate agent and an aspiring ballerina were brought up from the cells.

(snip)

On Tuesday, Prime Minister David Cameron said anyone convicted of violent disorder would go to prison.

And in a brisk, efficient manner, the district judge in court five seemed to be ensuring that this happened.

In each case, she would listen carefully as the defendants' solicitors made arguments for community sentences or for them to be granted bail.

Then she would say the circumstances rendered their offences too serious, before referring their cases to the crown court, and its tougher sentencing powers.

The case of Charlie Heron, 18, epitomised the approach.

The unemployed cannabis user from Roehampton admitted buying £248 of sports clothes from a "crack head" for £50 - items which had been looted from JD Sports in Clapham Junction the previous night.

The offence, which would ordinarily result in a fine or conditional discharge, saw him remanded in custody and sent to crown court for a probable prison sentence.

"At this time, anyone who buys stolen goods of this nature, from well-publicised rioting and stealing from shops is very much in the same position as the person who stole the goods," Judge Roscoe told him.
'Looking for a thrill'

Almost 100 people appeared at Westminster overnight, with prosecutors working 17:00 to 09:00 shifts.

About 30 more people charged with offences linked to the rioting were to appear before the court before the end of Thursday.

Despite appearing stressful for the lawyers, who were often without their complete paperwork, proceedings appeared to be passing smoothly.

Between riot cases there was time for some which are dealt with on a more typical day in a magistrates' court - a man losing his licence for drink driving, and a woman denying pulling a barmaid's hair.

The court was packed with press, including a contingent from abroad - between cases British journalists were busy explaining the vagaries of the justice system to their French counterparts.

Last up before lunch was James Haung, 19, arrested on Tuesday night in Camberwell wearing a balaclava and gardening gloves.

He denied a charge of going equipped to steal, having told police he was "just looking for a thrill".

He too, was remanded in custody, to appear at crown court at a later date.

Of the eight cases heard during the morning - others involved charges of affray following a scuffle with police in Lambeth and someone found carrying a knife in Hackney - none were released on bail, and all were sent to the crown court for sentencing.

(snip)

Originally Posted by GMPolice

Stefan Hoyle (born 27/01/1992) of St. Stephen Street, Salford, jailed for four months for theft after found with a stolen violin.

Jordan Kelly (born 09/01/1991) of Kerswell Walk, Newton Heath, was jailed for six months for going equipped

Paul Obonyano (born 26/09/1968), Cowesby Street, Moss Side, jailed for 14 weeks for assaulting a police officer and a public order offence.

Eoin Flanagan (born 01/01/1983), of Carson Road, Burnage, jailed for eight months for stealing clothes

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35286864)

I'm confused now. didn't I read that it needed a million signatures originally. and where's everyone getting this million figure they're talking about?

and it won't get passed anyway. unless the people who signed it want more riots and riots for a proper reason.

Originally Posted by Matt D (Post 35286865)

"England riots: 24-hour criminal justice system after riots"




"Riots: Tough justice in London's courts"




Despite the numbers, they are generally being dealt with more harshly than some might expect. "Given the circumstances..." is apparently being said quite a lot by Judges...

---------- Post added at 19:56 ---------- Previous post was at 19:55 ----------

The Twitter feed for Greater Manchester Police is naming and shaming those who have been convicted:

https://twitter.com/#!/gmpolice



etc. etc.

Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35286871)

what "proper reason"would you be thinking about Gary ,do tell

Originally Posted by devilincarnate (Post 35286818)

Yes it is:



http://www.premierleague.com/page/He...417110,00.html

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35286874)

Nothing too exciting. just being completely skint.

Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35286877)

and in your world that would justify rioting would it

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35286881)

Are you coming away from the other one and starting a new one now?

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35286864)

I'm confused now. didn't I read that it needed a million signatures originally. and where's everyone getting this million figure they're talking about?

Originally Posted by LSainsbury (Post 35286890)

What 1m figure?? It's always been 100,000 signatures.

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35286881)

Are you coming away from the other one and starting a new one now?

I was saying, (but you were looking for something else so you missed it) that we moaned about them rioting for not having a reason. other than for the fun and gains to be made. and if we want their benefits to be stopped then they will have a reason to riot.

whether the riots are justifiable or not doesn't matter. we can discuss that all day long after we have given them the excuse.

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35286891)

and you say to the reason?

---------- Post added at 20:28 ---------- Previous post was at 20:26 ----------



I don't know what the threshold is really, but I'm sure someone said it needs a million. isn't that why Mick mentioned the million too?

Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35286895)

should have just said that instead of trying to be cryptic :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35286901)

I don't do cryptics. I'm crap at them kind of crosswords.



Well if we do. it'll be a lot worse than what we've just experienced. to us it's dole money. to them it's life.

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35286777)

Like this.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2011/08/31.jpg

Originally Posted by DaiNasty (Post 35286959)

I can't agree with stopping benefits completely. I think that will result in a lot of desparate people committing more crimes. Perhaps for those convicted a reduction of perhaps 10% or so. That would cut back on their fags and booze a bit and the saving could be applied to rebuilding the businesses that were trashed.

Originally Posted by danielf (Post 35286969)

My thoughts exactly. What bright spark thought this up? Here we've got a lad (presumably) that apparently thinks nothing of smashing in shop windows to take whatever he fancies and people think the appropriate punishment is to take the little money he has away. What the hell do people think he's going to do now that he's got even less money than before? I figure he's not going to get a paper route or wash cars...

I think a spell in prison is far more appropriate.

Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35286972)

the little money that the dole gives them will only account for a small part of their income. Those who are career claimants don't just get dole ,they live mainly on the proceeds from crime eg drugs ,robbery ect so stopping their dole won't make that much difference to them financialy. Also quite a few don't even bother claiming because they earn enough from their criminal activities to not have to ,instead they shack up with some bird who gets housing benefit so they have somewhere to live for free and stay off the benefits radar so not having the inconvenience of having to look for work to keep benefits.
Stopping the rioters benefits will make the honest tax payer feel a lot better but won't make that much difference to the career claimant/criminal

Originally Posted by eto (Post 35286973)

Number of signatures: 109,127

thats is NOT a million signatures

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35286991)

R.I.P Richard Mannington Bowes.

It was mentioned this in a debate and I cannot remember where I watched this now but they were talking about how some of these rioters are turning up at court, dressed in the full blown chav gear, tracksuits and the like. Kinda shows the lack of respect for authority, when criminals show up in normal every day wears.

Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35286972)

the little money that the dole gives them will only account for a small part of their income .Those who are career claimants don't just get dole ,they live mainly on the proceeds from crime eg drugs ,robbery ect so stopping their dole won't make that much difference to them financialy .Also quite a few don't even bother claiming because they earn enough from their criminal activities to not have to ,instead they shack up with some bird who gets housing benefit so they have somewhere to live for free and stay off the benefits radar so not having the inconvenience of having to look for work to keep benefits.
Stopping the rioters benefits will make the honest tax payer feel a lot better but won't make that much difference to the career claimant/criminal

Originally Posted by danielf (Post 35286976)

Secondly, I'm still wondering what the background of these people is. I have absolutely no time for the mindless thugs that are simply in it for the money and kicks. However, I also wonder about the extent to which there is genuine resentment that breeds this kind of behaviour. Watching Question Time, someone asked: why does this stuff never happen in Norway or Sweden? And the answer that was given was: because it's a more egalitarian society. Having grown up in Holland, I think there's a lot of truth in that. There are a number of deprived areas in Holland, but they are nothing like the sink estates we have here. I'd be very surprised to see this type of thing kick off in the likes of Sweden, Norway, Holland or Germany. They're more egalitarian societies, where you don't get the levels of deprivation that you get in the UK.

That's not to say that deprivation is an excuse. Just saying that deprivation is likely to be a catalyst. If you make people live in ghettos, people will revolt.

Originally Posted by colin25 (Post 35287031)

I was brought up in that type of circumstances, limited resources, estate.

I never thought about mugging someone, stealing etc

My parents taught me right from wrong, and whilst I may have skirted the grey area occassionally, I know the difference.

Most are now children of parents who equally were never taught discipline..80s and 90s where discipline was a dirty word in schools and society are now coming home to roost.

How can we expect people to be good parents, when they themselves were allowed to run feral

Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35287055)

Met Police confirm that should riots threaten London's fashion district they will adopt a size zero tolerance.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35286991)

R.I.P Richard Mannington Bowes.

It was mentioned this in a debate and I cannot remember where I watched this now but they were talking about how some of these rioters are turning up at court, dressed in the full blown chav gear, tracksuits and the like. Kinda shows the lack of respect for authority, when criminals show up in normal every day wears.

Originally Posted by Welshchris (Post 35287085)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/08...riot_benefits/
It states here that Clegg has stated that Councils should have the right to evict rioters from council properties and they they would have to declair themselves as homeless and the local council would have to rehome them... Errrmmm wouldnt this just cost more tax payers money and be a total waste of time.

You evict someone so your gonna have to get a court order for that which will take time and cost money. You get the order and they are evicted and chances are these people will not go quietly so you may need police presence which again will cost money. Councils will then have to get staff in to make sure property is fit and upto date or work will have to be done. Then the people they have just evicted would declair they are homeless to the SAME! Council and the SAME! Council would have to spend money on
rehoming the same people. Is it me or is this pointless?

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35287130)

Might the fact that a judge in Manchester feels strongly enough to comment on the absence of parents at the court proceedings involving young children explain quite a lot about the upbringing many of them have had and why they were out and about in the first place? I dare say quite a few of their parents were similarly antisocial not that long ago so can we expect their offspring to be any more responsible? Yes we must be tough on those who've done wrong but we must also get a grip of the reality that far too many people are having children they seemingy can't cope with and/or couldn't care less about.

Originally Posted by danielf (Post 35286976)

Well, first off. Those who aren't on benefits won't be affected.

Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35287198)

No they won't .As i said these people don't work and don't claim ,they live off the proceeds of crime so they will continue stealing ,mugging ,dealing ect as they always have done .Those who do claim some may turn to crime and some may surprise us all by getting work ,either way i doubt the petition will have any effect as i suspect there may be legal issues with stopping benefits because someone has a criminal record ,i don't think legaly that they could single out rioters from other criminals who do get benefits .So although the petition is popular and does show the feeling of a large number of people ultimately it won't have the desired effect imo

Originally Posted by danielf (Post 35287210)

Actually, my last comment was about evicting rioters from their houses wich is equally pointless as stopping their benefits.

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35287187)

Oh dear, perhaps we'll need an emergency enquiry into the IPCC's standards....

Originally Posted by danielf (Post 35287210)

Actually, my last comment was about evicting rioters from their houses wich is equally pointless as stopping their benefits.

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35287214)

I don't see the problem here. The IPCC Press Office seems to have been passing on information, when asked, in good faith. It did not proactively issue information until it was reasonably sure of the facts. Certainly, no reference to Duggan firing first appeared in any press release put out by the IPCC.

If journalists will insist on off-the-cuff briefings to feed their 24-hour operations, they are going to have to expect information released while an enquiry is barely begun to be preliminary and unreliable.

And yet, all the main media outlets are suddenly throwing the word "misled" around as if giving duff information to pushy hacks was some sort of a criminal offence.

The British media, the Press media in particular, is sitting in its very own glass house at the moment, and it had better think twice before throwing rocks at the IPCC or anyone else.

Originally Posted by joglynne (Post 35287232)

London Police Arrest Man Over Riot Death

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...ting-dies.html

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35287214)

I don't see the problem here. The IPCC Press Office seems to have been passing on information, when asked, in good faith. It did not proactively issue information until it was reasonably sure of the facts. Certainly, no reference to Duggan firing first appeared in any press release put out by the IPCC.

If journalists will insist on off-the-cuff briefings to feed their 24-hour operations, they are going to have to expect information released while an enquiry is barely begun to be preliminary and unreliable.

And yet, all the main media outlets are suddenly throwing the word "misled" around as if giving duff information to pushy hacks was some sort of a criminal offence.

The British media, the Press media in particular, is sitting in its very own glass house at the moment, and it had better think twice before throwing rocks at the IPCC or anyone else.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35286991)

R.I.P Richard Mannington Bowes.

It was mentioned this in a debate and I cannot remember where I watched this now but they were talking about how some of these rioters are turning up at court, dressed in the full blown chav gear, tracksuits and the like. Kinda shows the lack of respect for authority, when criminals show up in normal every day wears.

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35287256)

Yes RIP to him and the three guys mown down by that car. People doing what we're always told we should be doing - being good citizens. I hope plaques will be erected to honour their memory and sacrifice.

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35287233)

And if he is guilty they should throw away the key.

Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35287223)

I agree ,we have tried moving the problem in the past and it doesn't work My estate is one that that was ostly pulled down and the tenants moved to others in a bid to stop the problem of gangs ,all that achieved was the gangs in a different area .At the end of the day they have to live somewhere .

If we have to spend a shed load of money (again) on inner city areas then so be it but i suspect that it isn't a simple as throwing money into these areas and hoping the problems go away as labour did (and i'm not scoring political points it's a fact).
We need to start in the home and address why some parents are lacking the skills to bring up their children with respect and morals .We have i fear lost a generation to crime and a life out of work because we as a society allowed it ,we failed to spot the signs early enough and now have at least one generation of children and young adults with substandard education ,next to no morals and no respect for law and order.
I am not going to pretend i have any of the answers but i suspect the reasons behind these events are many and varied and will not be a quick fix but whatever we do we have to have a government with some different thinking (lets hope the present government are up to it) .We have tried throwing billions at the problem it hasn't worked so a different aproach is needed one that will educate the children properly ,give them a stake in society ,give them an alternative to living on the dole and being forgotten about and above all we need to resist the temptation to give up on the younger generations ,we need them as much as they need us .
It is a failing of the older generations that we have these problems and we need to realise that