Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Ironic really that Angela Merkel wants to keep the Euro intact but does not want to bail out all Eurozone members in the process.

Unfortunately, if she is not prepared to do that various Eurozone members may end up leaving the Euro and reverting back to their original currencies but in doing so there will be a lot of unpleasant consequences for their economies and their people.

I don't envy Greece if they leave the Eurozone but it will be really bad if Spain, Italy and other EU countries leave too.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

No this hasn't gone away while we've all be distracted by Olympic security problems:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18921663

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

It's worth the effort to seek out the stuff Ambrose Evans-Pritchard puts up on the Telegraph site, usually once or twice a week. Sometimes it's in the blogs section, sometimes it's in the finance news section. Wherever it is, it's always interesting and illuminating. The crisis certainly hasn't gone away. His contention is that the policies the Eurozone has followed have fatally damaged the project already. Like the Titanic, the damage is below the waterline and severe enough that the bosses in the first class lounge, still loudly insisting that it's unsinkable, are inevitably going to be proved wrong.

If Spain goes under, then that will be a disaster for the Euro. However the still larger danger is in Italy simply walking away from the single currency - which it could afford to do, in terms of both its economy and the rapid growth of public sympathy for such an idea. Silver Berlusconi hasn't gone very far away.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

A friend of mine has just come back from Spain, he told me 1 in 4 people are unemployed. Nobody can sell a house. People in Greece are ending up on the streets, and getting their food from bins. Ill people cannot get vital life saving drugs. What a tragedy it makes me weep. This debacle must be sorted out. When Germany suffered terribly during the wars, national socialism was the result. 50 million people were killed during the subsequent war. This may be a harbinger for a terrible war. As the Euro stands, it is reducing us to penury. The politicians are a disgrace, they are lying to the people, they conspire to keep the status quo, to feather their own nests. Arab spring? Do not think it could not happen here.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Yes i do and i know WHO i would blame for it.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I've always thought that one of the biggest dangers we face is the refusal of many people (powerful, political and otherwise) to accept that's what's been happening in Europe could lead to serious social unrest, the uncontrolled break up of the 'union' and, worse still, even war.

I've lost count of the number of times I've been told "it won't happen, it can't happen" or words to that effect. Well IMHO it very definitely can happen and the longer this crisis is allowed to simmer away with the really difficult decisions being dodged, the more danger there is.

I too think the EU has already failed and that some form of break up and financial meltdown is inevitable. Worryingly, far too many of the Eurocrats still appear to be in denial* about this and as they have yet more meetings about meetings, the dominoes are starting to topple and we edge closer to the precipice.

* unless there's a more sinister reason of course...

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Unfortunately the strength of their denial state is very much due to the fact that they are utterly convinced that the EU and its single currency is the only thing stopping another European war, rather than the possible cause of one.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Euro over the last year:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Actually that graph shows the strength of the Pound, not the Euro. ;)

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

They can try to dress up the Euro all they want but its just a poisoned chalice that will bring Europe to its knees

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Sure, thats what I wated to show. Risen quite well over th last coupke of months.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18950896

Is the perfect storm brewing?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

To me this now showing this deliberate act of sabotage by those with money.

Even experts said these stimulas should elevaited fears.

Does anybody think there may be some sort organised structure to this.

We seen the money men witholding 3rd worlds purse strings.

The banks sure was deliberate act which they new the governments would bail giving them prime position to take on governments. By heck one by one they taking them down bigtime.

Can we stop this act of terrorism on our economies.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Wow - from hypothesis to assumption as fact in six sentences.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Why exactly should institutions whose job it is to lend money in order to earn interest, lend money in places where they have a reasonable suspicion they won't get it back? Excessively risky lending is what got us into this mess in 2008 - money men not withholding when they really should have. Or is your memory really so short?

Spain's cost of borrowing reflects the level of risk the market attaches to the transaction, and that assessment is made with good reason. The Euro is fundamentally flawed by design. It worked fine only as long as conditions were benign but it has failed miserably in the face of its first serious challenge. The floundering economies of Europe cannot be salvaged as long as they remain within the Eurozone. As long as they remain in the EZ, the cash injections required to keep them afloat are inherently risky, and therefore subject to punitive rates of interest.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

this problem chris

How much these countries overstretched bailing out there banks look at spain now despite issues. Still bailing the parasites out which clearly making things much worse.

Because banks know they will be bailed as what happens to people money in those banks, peoples homes.

Lets not forget in spain one problem was overhyped housing market who caused this banks and money men. How much was this down to libor scandal too. So again not government.

Without any countries bailout then the banks would suffered the brunt this, also those money men who got caught with pants down. Why the money men should cut some slack.

Fact some these money men may been behind some the problems which caused banks to go belly up by getting involved in the sublime and ponze scheme.

Why should countries be blamed for there incompetance.

Works all ways dont it.

Surely those risks in 2008 are to blame who did that.

Take bg look whole picture it surely looks quite an organised effort to shove bad debts to governments then force them into austerity measures no doubt massive sale of assets.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Believe it or not there are plenty on the political right who agree with you. ;). Daniel Hannan, for example, has long argued that it is a debasement of the capitalist system to allow banks to make massive private profits in the good times but to socialise their losses - I.e. shove them on to us taxpayers - when things go bad.

The problem this time, however, isn't simply a matter of banks going to the wall due to dodgy loans. The flow of money has been disrupted to the extent that sovereign states are at risk of going bankrupt, and none of the half-measures taken so far have come close to addressing the chronic cause of the problem (the inability of weaker economies to remain competitive when locked at the same exchange rate with much stronger ones, particularly Germany).

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

yep I am sure this what happening but think this happening ontop of the eurozone problem too.

Understand the thinking behind eurozone was american style state system.

Problem is europe we have inherent cultures of divisions would never work with that and language barriers.

What worked in america dont necessary mean it works in europe. The system half baked because inherent squabbles. Only way was to disguard those division for the common good. You hear here the anti europe lobby no doubt other nations got same lobbyists culture.

Such us blocking policies other nations doing the same for selfish needs.

It in strange way originally it was working when only small amount countries was involved but soon it got bloated it hit the buffers.

They expanded too quickly should really kept it elitist. The other was how much was it down to false accounting when greece was allowed in. Who did there accounting certain american bank.

However the problems have been made worse impacted by wall street fiasco 2008 the ponze scheme the sub blime fiasco's.

Think they can recover if the money men cut some slack.

Also means union may have to also look at itself revert back to elitist system with only few members.

Now not advicating they give money to lost causes hese money men or throw it in gutter. They must understand some countries caused preasures by bailing banks. Not all of it was self harm.

IF they understand say take those bank bailouts out the picture then reconsider the strength of economy without it then they help evert crisis. The other is why not for period ease the interests for short term to stop defaults but long term get gains. It seems people losing heads rather working together.

Them panicking dont do anything but make situation worse.

Them being sensible to a problem is maybe the situation not being helped by stupid panicky rating agents.

It has not helped IMF could'nt run booze up in brewary with legarde in charge. Her advice been no better than ten year old. those rating agents, IMF caused massive damage.

Its like mistakes over mistakes then bad advice over bad advice. We got people throwing toys out the pram all it needs is common sense all stop being children grow up.

Hopefully once we get out the experts learn from this produce better advice better practises.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The Euro was not designed along the same mechanisms as the US Dollar. If it had been, it wouldn't be in the mess it currently is in.

In the USA there is a system of fiscal transfers between States, which prevents wealth piling up in the rich states such as California to the detriment of the poorer ones. No such system exists in the Eurozone. It would be politically impossible to bring about; it would require Germany to permanently subsidise Greece. It continues to work in the USA because there is a single cultural and political consciousness that prevents resentment over the fact that industrious Californians effectively subsidise large swathes of the rest of the country (California, if independent of the USA, would still be one of the biggest economies in the entire world and IIRC still in the G7). Meanwhile in Europe resentment is already building in Germany as people who have worked hard and saved carefully are asked to hand over more and more of their hard-earned to prop up Greece, which has made far too little effort to reform its own economy into something capable of existing in a monetary union with mighty Germany.

There is no common cultural or political consciousness to diffuse the resentment building in Europe over the rich northern states bailing out the poor southern ones. Quite the opposite. The hare-brained scheme that is the Euro, designed to lash warring, quarrelsome nation states together so as to prevent future conflict, is in danger of actually causing conflict.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

:tu:

In their eagnerness to shepherd us all into the Euro club by hook, crook, treaty and repeat referendum, the Eurocrats either overlooked or just ignored that reality.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

sorry should made it clear they did half baked job of trying to copy america union.

Agree I believe divisional resentment exists in america too could threaten there union. The fact they embrase USA my keep it together however unlike usa the europe was trying coble waring factions like you said to ultamately stop wars.

Yet like you say wars might come about due to the selfishness going off. Greece was always funny thing possible should never be embrased.

Think the central union last throw dice to stop it collapsing but will people and there governments totally embrase central union.

Not sure they will too many distrusts germany motives would it been more palitable if uk, france, spain or italy was the main player.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18950896

However we need not worry about any of this because:

Yeah right! lol

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Totally agree with you..

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

:clap: Excellent Chris

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

May I second that well "said" Chris:clap:

---------- Post added at 08:59 ---------- Previous post was at 08:54 ----------

Did not say for how long no help needed. The way it is going- I say it will in two to three years. That`s politicians for you :D

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Could Germany now be set for a downgrade?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18963810

Wonder if this news might focus a few minds on what's going on.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Somehow I doubt it. :)

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

It's kicking off, Pru:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/d...isis-live.html

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I dare say the Eurocrats will now have some more meetings about meetings whilst ordering new supplies of sand in which to bury their heads... :rolleyes:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

When you think of all the great intellects that there are in the world, why can't they reset the world economy? These so called experts must be payed huge bonuses by the banks because only they have the expertise to run such a complicated system, and if we didn't pay them they would leave. What to destroy another bank? After the second world war, the Marshal plan was formulated. Germany was smashed to pieces, England had fought 5 ruinous years of war and was skint. Europe was a basket case. However, in charge were people of stature, the Americans stood by us. Now its the turn of the Germans, America, China, and the rest of the world to chip in. Fat chance! Money is only an idea, surely the same rate of interest, say 2 percent could be charged,payed back over 100 years Everyone in the world guarantee payment. Anyway if we go down, we all go down this should put the wind up in Frankfort, London, and Washington.:confused:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Because they're not really experts, they're very good at informing us of what happened and how it happened but not so good at telling us what's going to happen next, experts my backside, it was experts that got us in this mess in the first place, I'd trust them to sort it out about as much as I'd trust a weatherman to tell me what the weather will be like over the Olympics.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

No it hasn't all just gone away... :erm:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19726981

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Sadly, it is not going to go away.

Despite all the talk of cuts in places like Greece, the one thing I haven't heard is leaders of countries cutting their own salaries,expenses, pensions etc. and until they feel the pain things are not likely to change.

Bolstering up the Euro artificially is just dragging the rest of the Eurozone down. It is, as has been stated, generating resentment between those who are paying for the support and those receiving it. While the sound German economy has people busy beavering away, the Greeks want to strike.

It would be far better if the Greeks became part of the solution rather than part of the problem, because there will come a point where those countries with the sounder economies will cry enough and we will be in a situation where Eurozone members revert back to their original currencies and support their currency at a level they can afford. They will then be left to manage their own affairs without financial support from other Eurozone members.

For me that is the best solution because it allows all Eurozone members to determine their own futures and puts the responsibility for sorting out the economic ills onto the people causing it.

Better still, each country can formulate its own plans tailored to the conditions in their own economy.It will give EU leaders a real incentive to address the issues with true leadership from the top.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Tought times ahead for France.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19754016

Wonder how many of these people will take their business and taxes elsewhere?

Of course it's popular to tax the rich and hit companies with additional financial burdens but this has an adverse effect on competitiveness:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19740957

---------- Post added at 13:05 ---------- Previous post was at 13:03 ----------

Yes, makes you wonder who thought the Eurozone was a good idea in the first place doesn't it.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Yea, and as long as France remains in the Euro it will not be able to do the one thing a nation state should be able to do in order to redress the imbalance in unit labour costs with Germany, namely to allow the Franc to slide against the DM in order to make its exports competitive again.

In the meantime, I predict rather more French families will up sticks and join the 400,000 already living in the UK, where tax rates for the most able wealth creators are competitive (currently 50pc, dropping to 45pc next April). Thankfully the economically illiterate fools who moan how it's 'unfair' that our top rate of income tax is dropping are not running the country, and people who see the bigger picture are.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Well i hope this is the start of something bigger.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19944072

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

With a bit of Luck we can get out just in time for Salmond's Tartan Twits to join up. :D

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

:LOL:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19953167

While all the Eurocrats are celebrating their Nobel peace Prize, I wonder if anyone in EuroLaLaLand has considered what would happen to all the 'peace' if the German economy were to stall or its people were to force a change of policy towards the likes of Portugal?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Oh the joy of the Euro.

Way back, when Greece got into trouble they devalued the drachma and all the "rich" folk flooded in spending money on cheap holidays. As things got better the currency strengthened and the Greeks could (should) invest and improve their own lot.

Now there is just to much difference and people don't flock in because the Euro keeps prices relatively high. There is a completely different mind set between parts of the Euro zone to make it work as the Eurocrats intend.

The Euro should have been a mechanism to allow companies (and governments) to trade across borders in a more orderly fashion, maybe even "tax free". Then taxes could be collected by national governments at point of final sale at whatever rate they needed. Less bureaucracy collecting tax across national boundaries

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

More 'peace' in Europe for the Eurocrats to congratulate themselves on...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19986804

No need to worry about that though because more integration is what's required... :rolleyes:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

It seems for the moment that the Eurozone won't collapse which is good, hopefully the economies will start to grow and help move beyond the last couple of years. It does seem like Greece might just be kicked out if they can't or won't take bailout money anymore.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Your ability to mix irony with sarcasm is unparalled Osem. I take my hat off to you (baseball cap) :D

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Just make sure you don't put it back on backwards. ;)

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I might be daft, however even I can work out which way up it's supposed to go :D

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

It's not good at all. The longer they keep the Euro on the crash trolley trying to jolt it back to life, the longer the PIIGS have to grow and overtake it. The Euro *is* the problem. They can either dispense with it now, which would cause a train wreck, or else they can dispense with it when they no longer have any choice in the matter, in which case it will be like a nuke going off. Sadly it looks like we're heading for the latter.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Tend to agree with Chris on this. Fiddling while Rome burns comes to mind.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

It's doomed and the longer that this sorry exercise in hubris is perpetuated, the worse the fallout will be. Why are they prolonging the inevitable? The only logical reason for this continuing charade is to safeguard the jobs of the unelected freeloaders who are making an excellent living at our expense. Not that I am at all naffed off with the EU project :D

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Or they can stagger on? I don't think the Euro dying is a foregone conclusion. Greece will probably go but there has been plenty of time for their debts to have been written off anyway, the risk to other European banks will be limited and the Eurozone will probably be better without them. Italy and Spain have both had successful bond auctions which have brought the price of that debt down from the dangerous levels of a few months ago. The immediate danger of the domino effect has passed for now, the ECB's debt buying plan has eased the crisis.

If it continues like this then they'll be in a position to decide if they're going to become more closely integrated with each other. That decision will probably be what decides it's future but there is still a route where we'll still be using Euros in mainland Europe come 2020.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Major surgery will be needed to keep the euro alive - either the weaker economies will have to be ejected to a free floating currency, or the stronger economies (The FrancMark alliance, and anyone else that can keep up) will have to transition to a new currency, with the euro floating to suit the lesser economies.

The Euro was created out of a balance of economies that were all pulling in the same direction, and while lesser ones could be absorbed without too much damage when things were going well, when the pressure is on, they will kill the euro or the euro will kill them.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The French economy is very much of the south, not the north, and if the economies of the Eurozone do start to fall like dominoes, the French is likely to go down right after Spain and Italy.

The heart of the Euro is not a union of the Franc and the DM, no matter how much posturing the French may indulge in. The Euro is now, to all intents and purposes, a currency peg system in which the national currencies of the members are welded to the value of the DM. It is the strength of the DM hiding behind the name "Euro" and next to the weakness of almost all the others, that is the problem.

One possible solution to this mess would be for *Germany* to leave the Euro, possibly taking Finland and the Netherlands with it, and forging a new "Northern Euro" if they remain wedded to the idea of being in some sort of currency union, leaving the original currency as a "Southern Euro" which would rapidly float down to a competitive level against the north.

However, we know that Europe's political clique would never actively pursue such a policy, because fundamentally the Euro is a political project, not an economic one. If it doesn't serve to lock Europe together as one, then it doesn't serve its purpose at all. So they will continue flogging the dead horse until Armageddon.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The German economy is what's keeping the EU show on the road, for now... Amazingly, growing resentment in Germany and the weaker economies still hasn't set alarm bells ringing in the minds of those, blinkered, singleminded Eurocrats who've staked everything on the grand Euro project and peddle the myth of only peace and harmony in Europe. The Euro project in its present form is a busted flush and it's the worst possible indictment of those at the helm of EU Good Ship Euro (little known sister ship to the Titanic) that they refuse to acknowledge it and change course.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

EU budget talks for 2013 collapse

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20269373

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Quite right too. We're now in November of 2012 and the EU is demanding an extra €9 billion *for this year* because it can't control its own spending properly. Clearly the European Commission thinks it can spend what it wants, where it wants, and then simply come back and milk the member states a little more to cover it. They need to learn to control their budget, especially at a time when they are telling member states to do likewise.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Just wish the bloody Euro would collapse so we can start over afresh.

---------- Post added at 11:52 ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 ----------

We need to get out and get out soon.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

:rolleyes: Yeah,get out of the EU and end up like Norway and Switzerland. Oh,hang on.... :p:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

:LOL:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I must say the sheer arrogance of the Eurocrats never ceases to amaze me! They're in group denial and I'm sure they feel terribly affronted by demands to keep their own house in order. It's as if they inhabit a different universe...

---------- Post added at 13:59 ---------- Previous post was at 13:56 ----------

Sorry but Salmond's tartan twits have already claimed Norway as part of the SNP's hastily geographically rearranged "arc of prosperity". :D

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Racist!!!! :p:

Oh,and for the Arc.... at Scotland's end is ,well,the end of the arc,and at Norway's end the wealth!

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Well he was banging on about the republic of Ireland and its celtic tiger economy but has gone strangely quiet on that front recently. :dozey:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18438402

That'll go down well in Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy.... :rolleyes:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20407787

Don't suppose this has anything to do with it though:

http://www.economist.com/news/leader...ime-bomb-heart

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Thanks to Taf for this link (from another thread) which I think is releveant here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-policies.html

Media spin, political pointscoring or truth?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

France's ability to finance their debt is improving since the Eurocrisis calmed down a tad. I wouldn't read too much into it, it seems like it's more a dramatic way of describing the current situation.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I don't care what stat there in as long as they don't drag us down with them.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21258272

How long can this go on?

Must be slipping, I missed this one from a couple of weeks ago:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...king-inflation

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I don't know. Guess we're asking the same questions of ourselves. At some point the economies have to recover.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

there's no recovery in sight. for anyone. even Germany is recalling it's gold (india has already done so, even recalling gold owned by it's citizens. but of course, we won't hear that in the news!!). buy gold now - the prices are only going up as the fiat currency we all adhere to and place value on loses the tiny meaning it has - saving money is pointless as it will lose it's value through inflation, then hyper-inflation, then collapse of the currency.

We will end up using a gold standard again, given a few years. the problem is, America don't want that. Their economy is so inflated now that is will crush itself any time. However, America doesn't want anyone using a gold standard as it will devalue their economy. We've seen it in Iraq when Saddam Hussain said he was no longer going to trade in Petro-Dollars - all of a sudden, the guy had WMD and America invaded. Gaddafi tried it too and was a massive advocate for moving to a single currency gold standard - look what happened to him. pattern? whoever controls the oil controls the currency it's traded in. (feel free to research this yourself on the internet. there's enough out there on it). Don't fall for the propaganda that the US 'liberated' the people. Libyans DID love Gaddafi. he did a lot for the people. here are some interesting facts that the BBC certainly wouldn't tell you about;

Libya and Libyan "dictator" Muammar Gaddafi:

1. Electricity is free for all Libyans.

2. Loans in Libya are free with 0% interest as banks are state owned.

3. Homes are considered a human right in Libya – Gaddafi vowed that his parents would not get a house until everyone in Libya had a home. Gaddafi’s father has died while him, his wife and his mother were still living in a tent.

4. All newly married people in Libya receive US$ 50,000 by the government to buy their first home to help the new family.

5. Medical treatment and education are free in Libya. Before Colonel Muammar Gaddafi ruled the country, only 25% of Libyans were literate. Today the figure is around 83%.

6. If Libyans wanted to take up farming as a career, the government funded people from equipment to seeds, all for free.


7. The government subsidised 50% of the price of a new car if a Libyan citizen wanted to buy their first car.

8. Petrol price in Libya is around $0.14 per litre.

9. Libya has no debt externally and its reserves amounts to $150 billion – now globally frozen.

10. The Libyan government would fund anyone who got a degree and if they could not get employment, and they would receive income as if they were employed until they got a job.

11. The sale of Libyan oil is credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens in proportion.

12. A family would get US $5,000 if they had a new baby to support the childs upbringing.

13. 40 loaves of bread in Libya costs around $0.15.

14. 25% of Libyans have a university degree.

(http://gmiah.hubpages.com/hub/Was-Mu...y-A-Bad-Person and many other sources in differing formats)

if his people hated him, why was he driving around in open-top cars through cities right up until the Americans stepped in? Gaddafi always expressed his opinion that the people trying to kill him were NOT his own people. was he telling the truth? one thing is certain - it was about the oil, and the trading currency.

so, brace yourselves. give it 5 to 10 years, currency as we know it will be worthless (like it already is, really). The coins and paper we place value on is supposed to represent a receipt for a proportion of gold you own in a bank / reserve. the problem arises because it's become a fiat currency. it no longer relates to any gold. there simply is not enough gold in the world to pay out if everyone cashed in. the largest economies are now built on nothing at all. quantitative easing only makes it worse.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/...#axzz2JV8dmbir
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/...#axzz2JV8dmbir
http://rt.com/programs/keiser-report/

Gold and a new gold standard WILL happen - it has to. but first, the current economic structure needs to completely collapse in an epic fashion....

http://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

well if thats true then they have opened up a mighty can of nutcases with arms in Africa. having said that the problems in Africa have been going on for a while now. it doesnt make sense. I remember reading somewhere Gaddafi was going to become President of Africa or was trying something to rise Africa? doesnt really make sense though as mentioned. Gaddafi could of surely done more if he was this great man in Africa? theres terrorists over there all sorts? the same sort that came after his head and arms? why didnt he kill them years before helping Countries like Somalia, Algeria, Mali etc. etc. ?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

It's just conspiracy stuff.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

You're contradicting yourself. The notes and coins in your pocket are *not* supposed to represent a proportion of gold, because our currency is not pegged to the value of gold. This was a deliberate decision of government. A five pound note states that the Bank of England promises to pay the bearer, on demand, the sum of five pounds, but does not define what five pounds actually is.

A fiat currency has no hard value because it is intended to allow for non-tangible things, such as the time you spend working on something, to take on a monetary value. A specialised, industrialised economy with a developed service sector can't function with a non-inflatable commodity such as gold as its currency because you can't steadily increase the gold supply to pay all the people who do jobs that don't result in something being grown, manufactured or dug out of the ground.

A return to the gold standard would indeed signify a catastrophic collapse of the fiat system but in terms of economic development it would be a big step back, not forwards, and the aim must be to return to fiat currency as soon as reasonably possible.

The crisis in the Eurozone is a perfect example of what happens when a nation state loses control of monetary policy. Greece cannot do anything to influence the value of the Euro, which is held at a level favourable to the more productive economies in the North, principally Germany. Just as if it were reliant on gold, which to all intents and purposes is worth the same, everywhere, Greece cannot unilaterally devalue its currency to a level where its industries and its citizens can actually afford to use it. The result is grinding poverty while the Greek government, with a EU gun held to its head, performs what is euphemistically called an "internal devaluation", whereby the workforce is pressurised to breaking point into accepting massive cuts in their wages and their standard of living in order to allow the government and Greek employers to be able to afford to continue trading and paying wages in Euros.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...ide-18bn-loans

seems santander in bit of hole as £18b loans turn toxic. Will this cause another shockwave in spains economy.

With news recently USA contraction I can only see worlds economy head for another big shock.

We got make people realise crony capitalism is destroying the financial system. We got too many who in rat race to stockpile enough money they could live for 300 to 400 years on it. It wont hit them they are the cause of economy ills until major businesses go belly up. I am talk companies like global companies like Sony. When they see that then might look in mirror think oh my god my money might be worthless if the system completely collapses.

With our latest news house prices rising again. Oh no:mad: has these idiots got clue in charge last thing we need is more property bubble.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...y-8475437.html

Welcome to next spain soon when it goes pop with toxic mortages people cant afford. We need to cap housing slowly bring it into the real world.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Not very likely in this case. Any business that can see its profits fall by 60% and yet still walk away €2.1bn. in the black has got to be doing reasonably well, given the circumstances.

I think the worst is still to come in the Eurozone because the EZ governments and the ECB are determined to keep the patient on life support by chucking piles of cash at it, but sooner or later, maybe in one year, maybe in 3 or 5, the money will run out and they will then have to face up to the fact that EZ economic policy is making the problem worse and making recovery not just more difficult, but quite impossible. At that point it will royally hit the fan.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Dam has it still not collapsed, "starts singing Why are we waiting" :)

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

On the contrary, Michael Heseltine and Tony Blair have both stated within the last three months that they think the UK should join the Euro eventually. It beggars belief.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I don't think it will collapse. I think the main danger has passed now. 6 to 8 months ago was probably the time it was most at risk and some pundits seemed sure that it was about to collapse but that never materialized. Their presumption of the way the crisis would unfold never happened. Spain especially managed to avoid the collapse that, at one point, seemed days or weeks away. It's still possible it will collapse of course but it's harder, albeit not impossible, to see how now.

Spain's cost of borrowing dropped below 5% last month continuing the trend downwards from October. Italy also saw their borrowing come down to around 4%. France's cost is now about equal to ours! Ultimately the dominos did not topple.

I think the Eurozone know they're not out of the woods. Idiotic policy could scupper it still but they've spent the last couple of years with the Euro in a critical condition and now it's stable. They just have to take this chance to save it. It's not exactly on life support anymore. The Euro stands a much better chance of surviving than it did this time last year.

I could be wrong of course, I often am. Although that puts in the same tent as the economists predicting the Euro's demise last year. :D

You might be singing a longer song. Besides I never understood the glee at which people looked towards Europe cheering it's seeming demise.

---------- Post added at 20:08 ---------- Previous post was at 20:02 ----------

The USA will be fine. The contraction was small and people seem confident it was a one off, certainly their other numbers are very good.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The sooner it collapses the better, then we might get back to what this country wanted in the first place a common market not a united states of europe run from berlin

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21455423

This is not good. :erm:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

And its still not collapsed, the longer it hangs on the harder the rebuild will be.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Yes I reckon there's going to be a lot more bad news than good coming our way from the Eurozone to add to our own problems. :erm:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

What worries me the most is we will end one way or another paying for it financially. even thou we never signed up to this fiasco we will pay for it.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The Eurozone has had a pretty decent few months prior to this. Really since the summer the threat of a collapse has dwindled significantly and the scenario that could have seen a collapse, the domino effect, has also abated.

It could still go wrong of course, the Spainish economy would especially be tested if another crisis suddenly flared up from somewhere in Europe. That doesn't appear to be on the table for the moment however. Spain and Italy have been able to finance at cheaper rates since October or so and that trend increased last month (see an earlier post I made). Obviously there are still problems like there are here but don't think it's especially shocking that they saw a contraction or 'bad' in a sense that it changes the situation or narrative in the Eurozone.

We're still in for a tough time for a while but it does seem the worse is over. Unemployment is going down, banks are secure and money is moving, and the Eurozone have stepped back from the brink.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

They have stepped back from the brink because the political cost of failure has been judged too high - so they will pay an economic and social cost instead. Youth unemployment in Greece is now greater than 61% ... that's scarcely imaginable. The inherent weakness of the Euro has been locked in and the zone faces years of terminal decline because of it.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I don't think they face years of terminal decline. Why would that have to be the case? They'll have to integrate the Eurozone closer but we all knew that would happen. Greece was also screwed before they stepped back from the blink and beside Greece could still be jettisoned from the zone without too much damage to the rest of it. Banks have pretty much written off any exposure to Greece already.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I think you misunderstand what has happened with Greece. They could have jettisoned it last year but did not; they could not bear the fact that this would prove the Euro was reversible. Greece is locked in for the sake of 'The Project' and the result is grinding poverty and unemployment.

The Eurozone faces unending decline because there is no politically acceptable way to stabilise it. A single currency needs a single fiscal policy. The Eurozone does not have one and is not going to get one any time soon. The sort of treaty change required will take years to thrash out and is likely to be a step too far for German taxpayers who will be told they have to endlessly write cheques to pay for the deficiencies of the southern 'Club Med' economies.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21591246

I don't think the Germans will be very happy...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21586340

Hmm another comedian running Europe... :erm:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The last thing that's needed, we've got enough jokers running our own country, trouble is it wore thin long ago and the jokes on us :(

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I have been reading this article its scary how can worlds minds be so panick stricken.
An empirical nail for the austerity coffin

http://www.businessspectator.com.au/...rc=sph&src=rot



Not sure it deserved new thread but its the economic analysis and of whether Austerity was is ever possible to work.


The data dont add up good reading infact the mess was increased by markets/governments panic button it seems.


We slowly seeing many economic influential people saying its a suicide move. What options are left to turn things around. Seems only solution is go into hyperdrive for a War(do we really want that route).


Also some seriously worrying comments further down that indicators suggest another crash storm coming. Second mega shock to the economy.



We already probably seemingly slipping with us our manufacturing figures down it seems for UK.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...-dip-recession


We certainly had spook today in the markets after currency had recovered over yesterday.


We now had run on our currency this snapshot what is present. Yep its not looking nice although not flood like slow trickle. Euro actually holding pretty well. The big winners USA as there economy recoverying well.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Cyprus Bailout: Savers Lose Money In EU Deal

http://news.sky.com/story/1065567/cy...ney-in-eu-deal

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21814325

If i was in Cyprus i would have by now withdrawn every penny i had in a bank or building society. I am so glad we are not part of the Euro.

What scares me however is that if the idiots in Labour get in at the next election they will go running to the EU and sign us up so they can grab a bailout to fund there crazy spending sprees. :mad:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The rules are well and truly being rewritten as we watch helplessly from the sidelines. This sort of thing is quite outrageous. In don't suppose people will be queueing up to save via Cypriot banks after this so how's that going to help their economy and what message does it send to savers in countries like Spain, Portugal and even Italy? It's almost as if the Eurocrats are hell bent on creating turmoil in order to justify ever more extreme measures in their pursuit of their aims.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Looks like the EU are hated in Cyprus now. Way to make friends and influence people.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21813754

The unelected EU bureaucrats will end up starting the biggest fallout Europe has seen in years with there arrogance.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Cyprus could always turn down the 10 Billion Euro bail out....

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Yup. These countries can't have it both ways and have the bailout with no conditions attached. It was the same with the level of animosity towards Germany because they imposed strict conditions on the Greek Bailout to ensure they didn't squander it all away on trying to keep up their spending plans for a few more months. I think 10% of savings is scandalous of course but then so is the fact they got into that position in the first place.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

... Or leave the Euro and devalue. That way domestic savers take a somewhat less direct hit.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

At least by leaving the Euro their future will be more in their own hands.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

That's worked well for them so far....;)

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The thing is before joining the EU The Cypriot economy was fantastic - The CY Pound was almost twice as valuable as Sterling - how they managed to screw up so bad i'll never know.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I think you will find they were dragged in to the Greek issue

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21814325