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-   -   Students Rioting in London. (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33671790)

Sparkle 23-12-2010 08:10
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masque (Post 35141992)
So students lifting steel fence panels to use as weapons along with anything else they can lay their hands and destroying public property or daubing paint on everything in sight does not constitute a riot, then please explain what the students were doing as that does not come under their right to protest under any law in any country on this planet.
Masque, I'd suggest you familiarise yourself with what 20,000 people look like in a protest. At the recent demos, there were localised areas of disorder, that is not the same as a riot. The images you saw on television were about the only scenes of violence, out of a crowd of at least 20,000. Does that really constitute a riot in the greater scheme of things?
If so, then it was merely a small riot. If only a few thousand police can manage to keep their form without water cannon or rubber bullets against a group of 20,000 or more, then it really can't be that much of a riot.

---------- Post added at 08:57 ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masque (Post 35142014)
Are you for real.:erm::confused:
Make an educated guess.
I'm at work now so can't provide any links for streaming media, but I can do so later if you wish.
Youtube search "greek riot dog" for some interesting clips. They use petrol bombs, explosives, and anything they can get their hands on - and these rioters obviously come prepared. Snooker balls and urine bags are childs play to the modern aspiring mainland European rioter. ;)

---------- Post added at 09:10 ---------- Previous post was at 08:57 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35141962)
where the hell have you been the last few weeks ,when fire extinguishers were getting thrown,fences thrown,snooker balls,fireworks,flares were being thrown ,police hit with iron bars ,graffiti daubed all over the place ,national monuments defaced, windows smashed police vans turned over ,members of the royal family attacked ..have i missed anything ? bloody hell FB you realy know how to be selective in what you see .These are facts ,they cannot be denied ,they are on video for all of time ,go on utube and type "student riots" and see how many hits you get ,alternatively you could go and join the holocaust denial society:rolleyes:
There was ONE fire extinguisher thrown by an idiot, who was caught and charged. I never saw any police van turned over. I saw a few guys rocking one, but never saw one turned over.

Hugh 23-12-2010 08:15
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
I see - it wasn't a riot, it was a small localised disorder and scenes of violence which is not the same as a riot, but if it was (which it wasn't), it was a only a small riot, because the police didn't have to use water cannon or rubber bullets.

Interesting logic chain.

btw, fyi, here are some pictures of a police van being "rocked"...

http://i.thisislondon.co.uk/i/pix/ga...van/Demo6_.jpghttp://i.thisislondon.co.uk/i/pix/ga...van/Demo1_.jpg

http://i.thisislondon.co.uk/i/pix/ga...van/Demo9_.jpg

martyh 23-12-2010 08:18
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142016)
Masque, I'd suggest you familiarise yourself with what 20,000 people look like in a protest. At the recent demos, there were localised areas of disorder, that is not the same as a riot. The images you saw on television were about the only scenes of violence, out of a crowd of at least 20,000. Does that really constitute a riot in the greater scheme of things?
If so, then it was merely a small riot. If only a few thousand police can manage to keep their form without water cannon or rubber bullets against a group of 20,000 or more, then it really can't be that much of a riot.

---------- Post added at 08:57 ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 ----------


Make an educated guess.
I'm at work now so can't provide any links for streaming media, but I can do so later if you wish.
Youtube search "greek riot dog" for some interesting clips. They use petrol bombs, explosives, and anything they can get their hands on - and these rioters obviously come prepared. Snooker balls and urine bags are childs play to the modern aspiring mainland European rioter. ;)
Good ,i'm pleased it is just childs play ,i'm pleased the police have managed to contain a small riot and stop it escalating into a large greek style riot ,that means they are doing a sterling job ..don't you think ,or do you want to see them escalate ?.

I don't know if you realise it but the police as part of their riot training look at riots such as you have used as an example and have developed techniques ,such as kettling to stop them escalating .I'm sure Derek or anyone else with experience in this sort of thing ,including people who have served in N Ireland with attest to the fact that it only takes a few individuals to mix with genuine protesters to spark a violent riot and if not contained willl very quickly escalate into a full fledged violent riot where death and serious injury can result .This is what the police are tasked with preventing and if a few students get a bit squashed ,bruised or generally inconvenienced then tough they will have to deal with it

Sparkle 23-12-2010 08:23
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35142024)
I see - it wasn't a riot, it was a small localised disorder and scenes of violence which is not the same as a riot, but if it was (which it wasn't), it was a only a small riot, because the police didn't have to use water cannon or rubber bullets.

Interesting logic chain.
Logic can get you into trouble, and if you open your eyes for a moment you'll see it is actually you who is using logic, not me.
Logic is used by the simple mind to understand a complex environment.
I don't use logic, I see events for what they are.
If you think localised acts of disorder is a riot then boy are you in for a shock when you see a proper riot in the streets of London. ;)

---------- Post added at 09:23 ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35142025)
Good ,i'm pleased it is just childs play ,i'm pleased the police have managed to contain a small riot and stop it escalating into a large greek style riot ,that means they are doing a sterling job ..don't you think ,or do you want to see them escalate ?.

I don't know if you realise it but the police as part of their riot training look at riots such as you have used as an example and have developed techniques ,such as kettling to stop them escalating .I'm sure Derek or anyone else with experience in this sort of thing ,including people who have served in N Ireland with attest to the fact that it only takes a few individuals to mix with genuine protesters to spark a violent riot and if not contained willl very quickly escalate into a full fledged violent riot where death and serious injury can result .This is what the police are tasked with preventing and if a few students get a bit squashed ,bruised or generally inconvenienced then tough they will have to deal with it
Wow, what a blinkered perception you have.
The REASON it didn't escalate, wasn't because of the police, it was because...wait for it....most of the protesters were there for peaceful protest and had no interest in any violence whatsoever !
The rioters became violent AFTER the kettle, and broke out of the last demo kettle early on in the evening. The vast majority of the people left in the kettle (till as late as 1 am) were peaceful demonstrators.

martyh 23-12-2010 08:23
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142026)
Logic can get you into trouble, and if you open your eyes for a moment you'll see it is actually you who is using logic, not me.
Logic is used by the simple mind to understand a complex environment.
I don't use logic, I see events for what they are.
If you think localised acts of disorder is a riot then boy are you in for a shock when you see a proper riot in the streets of London. ;)

Don't you see that as a bit of problem ?

Hugh 23-12-2010 08:26
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142026)
If you think localised acts of disorder is a riot then boy are you in for a shock when you see a proper riot in the streets of London. ;)
You may not mean to give the impression, but it would almost seem you are looking forward to them if they happen.

Sparkle 23-12-2010 08:27
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35142029)
You may not mean to give the impression, but it would almost seem you are looking forward to them if they happen.
No I don't want to see that for real, but I do wish some people could at least imagine what it would look like.

Hugh 23-12-2010 08:28
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35142028)
Don't you see that as a bit of problem ?
Obviously not - why think things through to a logical conclusion when you can use polemic and diatribes support your position; you never have to justify anything then....:erm:

It just is, OK!;)

martyh 23-12-2010 08:29
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142026)
Logic can get you into trouble, and if you open your eyes for a moment you'll see it is actually you who is using logic, not me.
Logic is used by the simple mind to understand a complex environment.
I don't use logic, I see events for what they are.
If you think localised acts of disorder is a riot then boy are you in for a shock when you see a proper riot in the streets of London. ;)

---------- Post added at 09:23 ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 ----------



Wow, what a blinkered perception you have.
The REASON it didn't escalate, wasn't because of the police, it was becase...wait for it....most of the protesters were there for peaceful protest and had no interest in any violenc whatsoever !
The rioters became violent AFTER the kettle, and broke out of the last demo kettle early on in the evening. The only people left in the kettle (till as late as 1 am) were peaceful demonstrators.
You'll have to excuse me while i go a find a brick wall to bang my head against ...oooh look here's one :banghead:

Peter_ 23-12-2010 08:36
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142031)
No I don't want to see that for real, but I do wish some people could at least imagine what it would look like.
Are you really for real as what you are saying is that basically you condone the out of control violence used by the protesters which went over the top to any normal minded person.

I would fully condone the use of Baton Rounds and Water Cannon to control such crowds if and when required and up to now they have been lucky that the police can only use horses to try and control the rabble.

Derek 23-12-2010 08:38
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35142033)
You'll have to excuse me while i go a find a brick wall to bang my head against ...oooh look here's one :banghead:
Myself and some other forum members would recommend putting one of these on your list to Santa before engaging some people in a debate.

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

papa smurf 23-12-2010 08:42
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35142033)
You'll have to excuse me while i go a find a brick wall to bang my head against ...oooh look here's one :banghead:
bbbbut that fits your definition of rioting :)

Sparkle 23-12-2010 08:45
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35142028)
Don't you see that as a bit of problem ?
Ah, do you not understand logic for what it truly is ? Not surprising as most people do not.
Think outside the box. Lose the preconditioning for a moment.

When you base something, on something else, which is itself based upon something else, do you know what you have?
Often times, you've "Lost all context" - is what you have.

Its fine in mathematics, but in Law and topical issues it just creates a mess.
Logic is used for mere convenience, to simplify things - but if logic is used when a situation cannot be further simplified then problems get created.

This is why it is possible in Law (for instance) for someone to be sent to prison for a minor offense, but yet someone else can be let off with community service for murder. But when you stand back and see the whole picture for what it is; you see the madness.

It all boils down to LOGIC. Its best to steer clear of it, and just see a situation for what it truly is, and that doesn't involve a logic sequence.
I suggest to steer clear of labels too, especially grey area labels such as "riot". By using suck labels, the grey becomes black (by default) and the process continues. Labels often lead to other assumptions being made, and eventually to lack of context.
Just look at the religious debates for some fine examples there.
"If god is onimpotent, then can he create a stone so heavy that he cannot lift it?"; therefore God cannot exist.

What we had at the last demo was 20,000 people, a minority of people bent on violence. Some were students, some were not. Some police instigating violence, and some at the receiving end. Some biases reporting, some non-biased reporting.
Thats what it was, and thats all it was.

---------- Post added at 09:45 ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35142040)
bbbbut that fits your definition of rioting :)
:LOL:

Derek 23-12-2010 08:50
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Personally I think we should avoid the armchair experts who think because other countries are more radical and violent we don't know what a riot is and go with the current legal definition ( In England anyway )

Quote:
In English Law Riot forms part of the Public Order Act 1986 under section 1.
The Public Order Act 1986 s.1 states:
1) Where twelve or more persons who are present together use or threaten unlawful violence for a common purpose and the conduct of them (taken together) is such as would cause a person of reasonable firmness present at the scene to fear for his personal safety, each of the persons using unlawful violence for the common purpose is guilty of riot.
2) It is immaterial whether or not the twelve or more use or threaten unlawful violence simultaneously.
3) The common purpose may be inferred from conduct.
4) No person of reasonable firmness need actually be, or be likely to be, present at the scene.
5) Riot may be committed in private as well as in public places.
I'd say the scenes we have seen count as a riot so we can move on.

---------- Post added at 09:50 ---------- Previous post was at 09:48 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142041)
but yet someone else can be let off with community service for murder.
except murder carries a mandatory life sentence... :dozey:

papa smurf 23-12-2010 08:54
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek (Post 35142039)
Myself and some other forum members would recommend putting one of these on your list to Santa before engaging some people in a debate.

http://www.jmsrugby.co.uk/Kids_Wear/...s/photo_medium
ok

will you continue with your usual method ;)

Sparkle 23-12-2010 09:00
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masque (Post 35142038)
Are you really for real as what you are saying is that basically you condone the out of control violence used by the protesters which went over the top to any normal minded person.
Okay lets break this down.

Its violence by SOME protesters, not THE protesters. Labels again :nono:
No I condemn (most of) the violence by them, but support the majority as a whole.

Quote:
I would fully condone the use of Baton Rounds and Water Cannon to control such crowds if and when required and up to now they have been lucky that the police can only use horses to try and control the rabble.
I don't mind what they do, just as long as the police don't escalate the anger of the protesters any more than they need to. I don't want to see a whole generation become radicalised, and that's exactly what is happening now.

---------- Post added at 10:00 ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek (Post 35142045)
Personally I think we should avoid the armchair experts who think because other countries are more radical and violent we don't know what a riot is and go with the current legal definition ( In England anyway )



I'd say the scenes we have seen count as a riot so we can move on.[COLOR="Silver"]
Thank you for illustrating my point so eloquently. You've taken grey, made it black, and you've suggested we now assume it's black and base more assumptions on the new black classification. People have been hanged based upon such medieval notions. In the 21st century however, this is dissapointing.

Now Mr Expert, so instead of 1% of trouble makers creating a scene - tell us what you call 20,000 rioters ? A civil war?

Hugh 23-12-2010 09:46
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
But there aren't 20,000 rioters, so I call it a figment of your imagination.....

Sparkle 23-12-2010 10:56
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35142064)
btw, fyi, here are some pictures of a police van being "rocked"...
Err..no way Hugh, those pictures are of a van being vandalised by some "yoofs" who don't even look like student protesters.

This is a van being rocked :
[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]
As I mentioned earlier, it was rocked but that isn't tantamount to "police vans" (note the plural) being tipped over as was stated earlier.

Sirius 23-12-2010 13:27
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142031)
No I don't want to see that for real, but I do wish some people could at least imagine what it would look like.
I don't need to imagine, I have seen plenty in Londonderry and Belfast, Been involved in plenty in Londonderry and Belfast, Had to fire plastic bullets in one of those and fired tear gas as well.

So yes i KNOW what a riot is like. I know what its like to be on the receiving end of petrol bombs, Stones, Bricks and all the other crap that is thrown at you. I know what its like to have some hooligan spitting in you face, Swearing at you, Trying to stab a length of wood in you.

I just hope those that start one in London know what one is and what its like if the police use everything at there disposal to stop it. There will be unfortunately people on both sides hurt. I just hope those that are looking forward to the riots and are planing these riots are and will be able to live with injuries that people are going to get on both sides

Hugh 23-12-2010 13:36
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142069)
Err..no way Hugh, those pictures are of a van being vandalised by some "yoofs" who don't even look like student protesters.

This is a van being rocked :
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2010/12/28.jpg
As I mentioned earlier, it was rocked but that isn't tantamount to "police vans" (note the plural) being tipped over as was stated earlier.
a) I am impressed that you can tell the difference between student protestors and "yoofs", since most students are, in fact, "yoofs" (strange that all police are violent fascist barstewards, but you have the wherewithal to differentiate between young people, even when their faces are completely hidden (as they were in my earlier post).
b) it's the same police van.....
c) your follicles appear to suffer from extreme splitting.... is it ok that one police van is vandalised, and only becomes a problem when more than one police van is tipped over?

And before you go down your black/white route again, I do not think that all student protesters are violent, just a small minority - but that small minority damaged the reputation of the rest, just like the small minority of police who behave badly taint the rest of the force (but as I do not believe in sweeping generalisations, I believe in both cases it is a small minority).

Sirius 23-12-2010 13:49
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142069)
Err..no way Hugh, those pictures are of a van being vandalised by some "yoofs" who don't even look like student protesters.

This is a van being rocked :
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/image...407_de27-1.jpg
As I mentioned earlier, it was rocked but that isn't tantamount to "police vans" (note the plural) being tipped over as was stated earlier.
So what is the difference between a student protester and a hooligan protester. Do they have different clothing or something else.

So in that picture who is who, Might be the police need the info so they can instantly id them like you have.

---------- Post added at 14:49 ---------- Previous post was at 14:41 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masque (Post 35142038)

I would fully condone the use of Baton Rounds and Water Cannon to control such crowds if and when required and up to now they have been lucky that the police can only use horses to try and control the rabble.
Same here well said :clap:

Peter_ 23-12-2010 14:11
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 35142145)
So what is the difference between a student protester and a hooligan protester. Do they have different clothing or something else.

So in that picture who is who, Might be the police need the info so they can instantly id them like you have.
Then we could say that hoodie is a rioter but wait a minute that hoodie over there is just keeping warm.

Sparkle 23-12-2010 14:27
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35142143)
a) I am impressed that you can tell the difference between student protestors and "yoofs", since most students are, in fact, "yoofs" (strange that all police are violent fascist barstewards, but you have the wherewithal to differentiate between young people, even when their faces are completely hidden (as they were in my earlier post).
Irrelevant. My earlier post was aimed at Masque's comment about multiple police vans being tipped over, when in fact it was an exaggeration as none were.
Quote:
b) it's the same police van.....
Yes from reading up on this, I do believe it is the same van. The one that was deliberately left as bait in the protester "kettle" in the November demo.
Quote:
c) your follicles appear to suffer from extreme splitting.... is it ok that one police van is vandalised, and only becomes a problem when more than one police van is tipped over?
What utter nonsense. When did I say it was okay to vandalise a van? Was it not you who said "assumptions are the mother of all frakk-ups?"
Why is is okay for you to make all manner of assumptions in order to validate the indefensible, but if anyone else appears to do it then it's deemed "the mother of all frakk-ups" ?

Just because its just as bad to vandalise a van as it is to tip one over, does not excuse your camp from deliberately spreading misinformation dictating that multiple police vans were tipped over, when in fact it was one that that vandalised. If one is to exaggerate, why stop at tipped over? Why not make the fairy tales much more colourful and add in some explosions and fatalities? Maybe its just me, but I'd much rather we stick to facts than fantastical misinterpretations of what actually happened, just saying...

Quote:
And before you go down your black/white route again, I do not think that all student protesters are violent, just a small minority - but that small minority damaged the reputation of the rest, just like the small minority of police who behave badly taint the rest of the force (but as I do not believe in sweeping generalisations, I believe in both cases it is a small minority).
Well its good that you accept that 99% of students who were clearly seen to be walking calmly with their placards weren't just thugs in disguise pretending to be peaceful protesters. Now we are beginning to stick with the facts, I hope this is a sign of things to come in this discussion.

The only reputation damaged in my eyes is that of the individual protestors who resorted to extremem violence, and the individual police who were overly aggressive or instigated violence. I don't tar everyone with the same brush, ever. I do judge (as do we all), but only on a case by case basis, regardless of gender, ethnicity, appearance, uniform (or lack of) or any other identifying marker other than the content of their character.

Peter_ 23-12-2010 14:30
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142167)
Irrelevant. My earlier post was aimed at Masque's comment about multiple police vans being tipped over, when in fact it was an exaggeration as none were.
.
Could please point that one out as I am unaware of it myself.:erm:

Hugh 23-12-2010 15:11
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142167)
snippety snip snip....

Well its good that you accept that 99% of students who were clearly seen to be walking calmly with their placards weren't just thugs in disguise pretending to be peaceful protesters. Now we are beginning to stick with the facts, I hope this is a sign of things to come in this discussion.

The only reputation damaged in my eyes is that of the individual protestors who resorted to extremem violence, and the individual police who were overly aggressive or instigated violence. I don't tar everyone with the same brush, ever. I do judge (as do we all), but only on a case by case basis, regardless of gender, ethnicity, appearance, uniform (or lack of) or any other identifying marker other than the content of their character.
Re "accept that 99% of students comment", one of my earliest posts in this thread (#73) was agreeing with Damien who stated
Quote:
I think the NUS conducted themselves appropriately throughout this entire protest. They worked well the the police, they deplored the violence in strong terms, and the actual march they organised was peaceful and well managed.

There is a good video of some students outside the Tory HQ chanting against those who were throwing things from the roof.

The reporting of the protest this morning has been keen to differentiate between the students and those who attached themselves in the march in order to cause disruption. A former senior member of the flying squad said the same on the radio this morning, that the NUS would never have been the problem but rather a professional group of troublemakers who use all marches to cause trouble.
so I had accepted it a long time ago.....;)

Re your tar/brush interface scenario - from your earlier posts....

Quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle #76
Funny how the ill educated often have a problem with those who are
Quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle #82 re Derek having a degree
Or that someone's telling "epic" fibs, if you'd earned a degree worth its salt I seriously doubt you'd be serving in your current career field
Quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle #806
I'd hate to imagine what the riot police would be doing if the cameras weren't there...

Osem 23-12-2010 15:30
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35141899)
Irony, thy name is FB.......:D

I see - you can interpret something from a shaky fuzzy cameraphone recording, but that option is not available to others.....
You just need to have Politically Selective Mode enabled... :D

---------- Post added at 16:30 ---------- Previous post was at 16:27 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masque (Post 35141992)
So students lifting steel fence panels to use as weapons along with anything else they can lay their hands and destroying public property or daubing paint on everything in sight does not constitute a riot, then please explain what the students were doing as that does not come under their right to protest under any law in any country on this planet.

Maybe you are using these.

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

To see these.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2010/12/26.jpg
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Standard issue for some folks... :D

Flyboy 23-12-2010 15:32
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35141939)
Do you think that video is indicative of what happened that day? Hang on why am i asking that? Of course you do.

But reality check - no it isn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuftus (Post 35141940)
Who were the people swearing?

The Police asking them to move back or the rioters replying with F words etc

:rolleyes:

Get a grip and step in to the real world my friend.
Are you seriously trying to say that was rioting. That is a serious overreaction, but then if your assumption is indicative of what the police believed, is no wonder they are being accused of overzealousness.

---------- Post added at 16:32 ---------- Previous post was at 16:31 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek (Post 35141941)
So you haven't seen any of the other videos? The ones where fencing is pulled down, windows are smashed, fireworks, flares and petrol bombs thrown at police lines, fires set on parliament square.

You've seen none of them and decide to base your opinion of what happened on one heavily edited shaky-cam video from later on in the night.
I am not talking about other videos, I am talking about the one linked to.

martyh 23-12-2010 15:33
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142167)
Irrelevant. My earlier post was aimed at Masque's comment about multiple police vans being tipped over, when in fact it was an exaggeration as none were.
Actually i believe it was me who said "vans being tipped over" which fair enough was a slight exageration to force a point ,but still ammounts to the same thing .

Quote:
Yes from reading up on this, I do believe it is the same van. The one that was deliberately left as bait in the protester "kettle" in the November demo.
and you honestly believe that? , you actually believe that a £30,000 van was used as bait to encourage the kids to riot ?

what an idiotic thing to say

Sparkle 23-12-2010 16:24
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35142199)
and you honestly believe that? , you actually believe that a £30,000 van was used as bait to encourage the kids to riot ?

what an idiotic thing to say
As idiotic as the truth?

If you think the police would never leave a van in the middle of a demonstration as a PR stunt, you have much to learn about how the authorities police this country. Everybody knows it was left there on purpose, all part of the PR battle - and make no mistake, there IS a PR battle at work.

There was an in depth discussion online somewhere about that van. The conclusion was that it wasn't even in service, older model (possibly stripped out of anything of any value) and something wrong with the ID on it (iirc).
Yes, there is evidence that would suggest it was left there on purpose.
If I can find some relevant links I'll post them.

---------- Post added at 17:24 ---------- Previous post was at 17:23 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35142199)
Actually i believe it was me who said "vans being tipped over" which fair enough was a slight exageration to force a point.
Ah, so it was. Apologies Masque. That'll teach me to type and work at the same time :doh:

Flyboy 23-12-2010 16:31
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35141962)
where the hell have you been the last few weeks ,when fire extinguishers were getting thrown,fences thrown,snooker balls,fireworks,flares were being thrown ,police hit with iron bars ,graffiti daubed all over the place ,national monuments defaced, windows smashed police vans turned over ,members of the royal family attacked ..have i missed anything ? bloody hell FB you realy know how to be selective in what you see .These are facts ,they cannot be denied ,they are on video for all of time ,go on utube and type "student riots" and see how many hits you get ,alternatively you could go and join the holocaust denial society:rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masque (Post 35141992)
So students lifting steel fence panels to use as weapons along with anything else they can lay their hands and destroying public property or daubing paint on everything in sight does not constitute a riot, then please explain what the students were doing as that does not come under their right to protest under any law in any country on this planet.

Maybe you are using these.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_jdLwYluwue...-farrow-06.jpg

To see these.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2010/12/26.jpg
Yes of course, that is exactly what I was referrimg to. :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 17:31 ---------- Previous post was at 17:26 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35142064)
But there aren't 20,000 rioters, so I call it a figment of your imagination.....
But there appears to be who many seem to think there were.

martyh 23-12-2010 16:32
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142209)
As idiotic as the truth?

If you think the police would never leave a van in the middle of a demonstration as a PR stunt, you have much to learn about how the authorities police this country. Everybody knows it was left there on purpose, all part of the PR battle - and make no mistake, there IS a PR battle at work.

There was an in depth discussion online somewhere about that van. The conclusion was that it wasn't even in service, older model (possibly stripped out of anything of any value) and something wrong with the ID on it (iirc).
Yes, there is evidence that would suggest it was left there on purpose.
If I can find some relevant links I'll post them.
no offence mate but you are starting to sound like a recruiting agent for anarchists 'r' us ....and i ain't buying it

Sparkle 23-12-2010 16:33
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
As for the vandalised van, here is a short sky news article briefly discussing whether it was left as vandal bait or not :
http://blogs.news.sky.com/frontlineb...b-bbeb70b3cb98

From what SkyNews are saying, it doesn't appear to have yet been proved either way. However, the fact that the van was left when there was ample opportunity to move it, is suspect. If noone has been reprimanded for leaving an expensive piece of kit in a danger area, then it's even more suspect imo.

If I can find anything conclusive (either way), I'll post a link.

Flyboy 23-12-2010 16:34
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 35142142)
I don't need to imagine, I have seen plenty in Londonderry and Belfast, Been involved in plenty in Londonderry and Belfast, Had to fire plastic bullets in one of those and fired tear gas as well.

So yes i KNOW what a riot is like. I know what its like to be on the receiving end of petrol bombs, Stones, Bricks and all the other crap that is thrown at you. I know what its like to have some hooligan spitting in you face, Swearing at you, Trying to stab a length of wood in you.

I just hope those that start one in London know what one is and what its like if the police use everything at there disposal to stop it. There will be unfortunately people on both sides hurt. I just hope those that are looking forward to the riots and are planing these riots are and will be able to live with injuries that people are going to get on both sides
Is this a riot?

Sparkle 23-12-2010 16:36
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35142213)
no offence mate but you are starting to sound like a recruiting agent for anarchists 'r' us ....and i ain't buying it
I've no idea what you are talking about. If you are gullible enough to believe everything the met tell you, then maybe you need help beyond what I can offer, sorry.
The met have already told a number of lies since these demos, they've denied officers were hiding IDs until presented with video evidence. They denied officers on horseback charged protesters during the November demos, until video evidence surfaced of them doing just that - to name just a couple examples.

Flyboy 23-12-2010 16:39
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35142192)
You just need to have Politically Selective Mode enabled... :D

---------- Post added at 16:30 ---------- Previous post was at 16:27 ----------



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Standard issue for some folks... :D
Maybe you wear them when looking at the police at protests.

martyh 23-12-2010 16:40
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142214)
As for the vandalised van, here is a short sky news article briefly discussing whether it was left as vandal bait or not :
http://blogs.news.sky.com/frontlineb...b-bbeb70b3cb98

From what SkyNews are saying, it doesn't appear to have yet been proved either way. However, the fact that the van was left when there was ample opportunity to move it, is suspect. If noone has been reprimanded for leaving an expensive piece of kit in a danger area, then it's even more suspect imo.

If I can find anything conclusive (either way), I'll post a link.
unless of course the students didn't stick to the agreed route and then the van was in a danger area ,but of course the students wouldn't go down an unauthorised route would they

Flyboy 23-12-2010 16:40
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35142199)
Actually i believe it was me who said "vans being tipped over" which fair enough was a slight exageration to force a point ,but still ammounts to the same thing .
Aah, I shall have to remember that one.

Quote:
and you honestly believe that? , you actually believe that a £30,000 van was used as bait to encourage the kids to riot ?

what an idiotic thing to say
LOL, a stripped down knackered out police van for thirty thousand, I don't think so.

Sparkle 23-12-2010 16:45
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Interesting discussion on the "bait" van:
http://www.sumpter.org.uk/police-pla...uction-of-van/

Now why would there be a "police aware" sticker on a van still in service?

Flyboy 23-12-2010 16:50
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35142223)
unless of course the students didn't stick to the agreed route and then the van was in a danger area ,but of course the students wouldn't go down an unauthorised route would they
Is that what happened in this case? I must admit I don't know what the official route was, but it would make sense for them to arrange to march down Whitehall.

---------- Post added at 17:50 ---------- Previous post was at 17:46 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142226)
Interesting discussion on the "bait" van:
http://www.sumpter.org.uk/police-pla...uction-of-van/

Now why would there be a "police aware" sticker on a van still in service?
:D:D I wouldn't give a thousand for that van. Thirty grand indeed. :rofl:

Sparkle 23-12-2010 16:51
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Yea, lol !
C'mon Marty, you still think that was a £30K piece of kit ?

Flyboy 23-12-2010 16:53
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
I must admit, I am struggling to see the relevance as well. :)

Sirius 23-12-2010 16:56
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyboy (Post 35142217)
I dont know is it. I was not there was you ?. I would need to be there to make a valid assessment.

---------- Post added at 17:56 ---------- Previous post was at 17:54 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyboy (Post 35142234)
I must admit, I am struggling to see the relevance as well. :)
Agreed.

Considering someone has joined and there first task is to ask that question it makes me concerned. They will not be getting an answer so they might as well bother someone else.

martyh 23-12-2010 17:04
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyboy (Post 35142224)
Aah, I shall have to remember that one.



LOL, a stripped down knackered out police van for thirty thousand, I don't think so.

At todays price a new basic model sprinter starts at £19,000 ,that particular model i.e extra long ,high roof ,3.5t is £29,975 +vat + modifications specific to use ,the 5 ton version is £35,000

merc link

so yes they did wreck a £30,000 vehicle

papa smurf 23-12-2010 17:05
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142226)
Interesting discussion on the "bait" van:
http://www.sumpter.org.uk/police-pla...uction-of-van/

Now why would there be a "police aware" sticker on a van still in service?
i'm sure a policeman will be along soon with a wildly fantastic and believable explanation .

the sign looks very dated and there is rust running from the rear windows ,is this how expensive vehicles are cared for -or is it how an old scrapper looks ?

Sparkle 23-12-2010 17:08
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35142243)
At todays price a new basic model sprinter starts at £19,000 ,that particular model i.e extra long ,high roof ,3.5t is £29,975 +vat + modifications specific to use ,the 5 ton version is £35,000

so yes they did wreck a £30,000 vehicle
Marty, did you click the link? The wrecked vehicle is old and covered in rust, whereas you're talking about the cost for a brand new vehicle ???

martyh 23-12-2010 17:11
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142248)
Marty, did you click the link? The wrecked vehicle is old and covered in rust, whereas you're talking about the cost for a brand new vehicle ???
which they would have to pay to replace it or do you think these things are free :rolleyes:

Sparkle 23-12-2010 17:14
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35142245)
i'm sure a policeman will be along soon with a wildly fantastic and believable explanation .

the sign looks very dated and there is rust running from the rear windows ,is this how expensive vehicles are cared for -or is it how an old scrapper looks ?
You know, actually I feel bad for the police on this incident. I accept that noone's perfect, and we all make mistakes. But for cripes sakes, how can they fapp-up the "bait" van?

I bet that if anyone gets disciplined in the MET over this incident, it won't be for leaving the van there, instead it'll be for fogetting to remove that sticker !

punky 23-12-2010 17:19
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
I've heard some really stupid whiny excuses from some really study whiny students but to say that it's the police's fault that a police van was destroyed by a baying mob is really up there.

I don't think even truthers are that stupid or had that much front.

Sparkle 23-12-2010 17:19
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35142251)
which they would have to pay to replace it or do you think these things are free :rolleyes:
So you are 100% sure the van was definitely still in service, and there is no way it was deliberately intended a "bait" vehicle ?

martyh 23-12-2010 17:22
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
[QUOTE=Sparkle;35142254]You know, actually I feel bad for the police on this incident. I accept that noone's perfect, and we all make mistakes. But for cripes sakes, how can they fapp-up the "bait" van?

I bet that if anyone gets disciplined in the MET over this incident, it won't be for leaving the van there, instead it'll be for fogetting to remove that sticker !

QUOTE]

Why would anyone get disciplined because a bunch of morons chose to wreck a van ? the sticker may have been on the van from a breakdown who knows ,who cares ,it's irrelevant ,just because the van was parked there doesn't mean the morons have the right to wreck it ,well not in the reak world but in the world of FB and Sparkle anythings possible :rolleyes:

Sparkle 23-12-2010 17:23
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by punky (Post 35142260)
I've heard some really stupid whiny excuses from some really study whiny students but to say that it's the police's fault that a police van was destroyed by a baying mob is really up there.

I don't think even truthers are that stupid or had that much front.
Noone said it was the police's fault. I never said that and noone else here has either. It was the fault of the vandals as it was destruction of property whether at the hands of a mob or after pub closing time.

Did anyone ever claim the law changes if there is a group of people all committing the same crime? No.
Did anyone say it was the police's fault ? No.

However, it seems to be that it was put there with the full knowledge of what would happen, there is a difference.

Sparkle 23-12-2010 17:25
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35142262)
Why would anyone get disciplined because a bunch of morons chose to wreck a van ? the sticker may have been on the van from a breakdown who knows ,who cares ,it's irrelevant ,just because the van was parked there doesn't mean the morons have the right to wreck it ,well not in the reak world but in the world of FB and Sparkle anythings possible :rolleyes:
Because that sticker made it abundantly clear to all but the most intellectually inept, that the vehicle was put there for one intended purpose.

Peter_ 23-12-2010 17:28
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142266)
Because that sticker made it abundantly clear to all but the most intellectually inept, that the vehicle was put there for one intended purpose.
Damn conspiracies.

martyh 23-12-2010 17:29
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142261)
So you are 100% sure the van was definitely still in service, and there is no way it was deliberately intended a "bait" vehicle ?

I see paranoia reigns in the world of sparkle ,you are determined to twist anything to suit your anarchical view ,well good Luck with that

Sirius 23-12-2010 17:32
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35142269)
I see paranoia reigns in the world of sparkle ,you are determined to twist anything to suit your anarchical view ,well good Luck with that
You have only just figured that :shocked:

punky 23-12-2010 17:33
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
However, it seems to be that it was put there with the full knowledge of what would happen, there is a difference.
Maybe to you and rest of the truthers but not anyone with a shred of decency.

And the whole reason this idiotic conspiracy theory came about was because people who now look bad after precipitating the aforementioned baying mob want to mitigate their responsibility for it.

Sparkle 23-12-2010 17:41
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masque (Post 35142268)
Damn conspiracies.
I'd much prefer the tin foil hat, to your blinkers.

Its not my job to educate you, if you'd prefer to believe the propaganda then suit yourself.

---------- Post added at 18:41 ---------- Previous post was at 18:38 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by punky (Post 35142273)
Maybe to you and rest of the truthers but not anyone with a shred of decency.

And the whole reason this idiotic conspiracy theory came about was because people who now look bad after precipitating the aforementioned baying mob want to mitigate their responsibility for it.
Now THAT sounds like a conspiracy ;)
However, I'd prefer to examine the evidence first rather than basing my conclusions on conjecture and hear'say. Carry on.

Peter_ 23-12-2010 17:45
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142276)
I'd much prefer the tin foil hat, to your blinkers.

Its not my job to educate you, if you'd prefer to believe the propaganda then suit yourself.
Oddly enough you can see what is happening in any of the videos but you choose to believe that those people involved are the real victims.

It seems that you have very strange view as to the reality of the events in London where people ran amok and rioted.

Paranoia comes to mind as your views become more outlandish as you seek to prove your views are based reality, no idea as to which reality.

Sparkle 23-12-2010 17:48
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masque (Post 35142281)
Oddly enough you can see what is happening in any of the videos but you choose to believe that those people involved are the real victims.
Have you actually read my posts? Plz don't be silly and go read them, you're wasting my time.
Read them yet? Good.

Now where did I say the rioters were the victims? Precisely.
Read, think, then type and in that order please.

martyh 23-12-2010 17:55
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 35142272)
You have only just figured that :shocked:
Yeah i know :dunce: i was accused of using logic before must be that

Sparkle 23-12-2010 17:55
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masque (Post 35142281)
Paranoia comes to mind as your views become more outlandish as you seek to prove your views are based reality, no idea as to which reality.
Each time I've made some "outlandish" claim as you put it, I've provided a link or some reference. Aside from bickering, what are you doing?
If you are so convinced you are right, then go get your *rse on Google and find some data that supports your case and link it here. I'm here to learn too, if you have contradictory data I'd be interested to hear of it.
I'm not arguing for the sake of it, or for cheap "my side vs your side" point scoring like this is some sort of game.

martyh 23-12-2010 18:04
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142289)
Each time I've made some "outlandish" claim as you put it, I've provided a link or some reference. Aside from bickering, what are you doing?
If you are so convinced you are right, then go get your *rse on Google and find some data that supports your case and link it here. I'm here to learn too, if you have contradictory data I'd be interested to hear of it.
I'm not arguing for the sake of it, or for cheap "my side vs your side" point scoring like this is some sort of game.
providing evidence via a link is ok if you use an impartial source ,unfortunately most of the links you provide are picked to suit your agenda

Sparkle 23-12-2010 18:17
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35142294)
providing evidence via a link is ok if you use an impartial source ,unfortunately most of the links you provide are picked to suit your agenda
Firstly, thats your opinion. Secondly, I don't have an agenda.
If I see evidence that indicates one way or the other, I'll support it.
Thirdly, its my understanding that none of the links I've given are partial to one side or the other - so I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

If you have a good explanation for how the weathered "police aware" sticker came to be on that vehicle, then I'm all ears. I did come across anti-police sites during my internet searches, but I deliberately omitted them due to their obvious bias against the police.

It's my impression that you don't have an explanation, and that perhaps even if you knew I were right you simply would refuse to swallow your pride and reverse your stance.
If so (not saying it is, but if it is) then you're no better than the politians whose "party politics" got us into this mess in the first place.

Hugh 23-12-2010 18:22
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142263)
Noone said it was the police's fault. I never said that and noone else here has either. It was the fault of the vandals as it was destruction of property whether at the hands of a mob or after pub closing time.

Did anyone ever claim the law changes if there is a group of people all committing the same crime? No.
Did anyone say it was the police's fault ? No.

However, it seems to be that it was put there with the full knowledge of what would happen, there is a difference.
Strange - your earlier post sounds very much like someone is saying it's the police's fault.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142209)
As idiotic as the truth?

If you think the police would never leave a van in the middle of a demonstration as a PR stunt, you have much to learn about how the authorities police this country. Everybody knows it was left there on purpose, all part of the PR battle - and make no mistake, there IS a PR battle at work.

There was an in depth discussion online somewhere about that van. The conclusion was that it wasn't even in service, older model (possibly stripped out of anything of any value) and something wrong with the ID on it (iirc).
Yes, there is evidence that would suggest it was left there on purpose.
If I can find some relevant links I'll post them.

---------- Post added at 17:24 ---------- Previous post was at 17:23 ----------



Ah, so it was. Apologies Masque. That'll teach me to type and work at the same time :doh:

martyh 23-12-2010 18:31
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142302)
Firstly, thats your opinion. Secondly, I don't have an agenda.
If I see evidence that indicates one way or the other, I'll support it.
Thirdly, its my understanding that none of the links I've given are partial to one side or the other - so I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

If you have a good explanation for how the weathered "police aware" sticker came to be on that vehicle, then I'm all ears. I did come across anti-police sites during my internet searches, but I deliberately omitted them due to their obvious bias against the police.

It's my impression that you don't have an explanation, and that perhaps even if you knew I were right you simply would refuse to swallow your pride and reverse your stance.
If so (not saying it is, but if it is) then you're no better than the politians whose "party politics" got us into this mess in the first place.
you obviously missed #953

Sparkle 23-12-2010 18:44
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35142304)
Strange - your earlier post sounds very much like someone is saying it's the police's fault.....
I don't understand the source of the confusion, but I'll try a different approach.
I'll use an example. Say hypothetically I own a shop and I want the shop window to get broken to claim insurance (or for whatever reason).
So, I take a £50 and leave in just inside the glass but in full view from outside.
Saturday night comes along, streets are packed with drunken idiots and hey presto the window gets broken and the £50 note stolen. Who's committed the crime, me leaving the £50 or the thief that broke the window and stole it?

C'mon guys, this isn't rocket science. Why are we even arguing about the silly pedantics? Clearly the vandals are still to blame for smashing the van, but I believe that it was most likely the intended outcome all along - based on the available evidence.

---------- Post added at 19:44 ---------- Previous post was at 19:38 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35142311)
you obviously missed #953
#953
Quote:
Why would anyone get disciplined because a bunch of morons chose to wreck a van ? the sticker may have been on the van from a breakdown who knows ,who cares ,it's irrelevant ,just because the van was parked there doesn't mean the morons have the right to wreck it ,well not in the reak world but in the world of FB and Sparkle anythings possible
THAT is your explanation ? I'm clearly wasting my time if you have come to the conclusion that I think anything is possible.
I base my conclusions on evidence, and that thereby rules out all other possibilities which do not have supporting evidence. Therefore your argument is null and void.

With regards to what information the government and police feed to the the general public, I do keep an open mind - but not so open that my brains fall out.

martyh 23-12-2010 18:46
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142313)
I don't understand the source of the confusion, but I'll try a different approach.
I'll use an example. Say hypothetically I own a shop and I want the shop window to get broken to claim insurance (or for whatever reason).
So, I take a £50 and leave in just inside the glass but in full view from outside.
Saturday night comes along, streets are packed with drunken idiots and hey presto the window gets broken and the £50 note stolen. Who's committed the crime, me leaving the £50 or the thief that broke the window and stole it?

C'mon guys, this isn't rocket science. Why are we even arguing about the silly pedantics? Clearly the vandals are still to blame for smashing the van, but I believe that it was most likely the intended outcome all along - based on the available evidence.
Absolute rubbish ,you have now entered so far into into the realms of fantasy land you have got lost on your way back to reality
Why would the police bother to encite a riot with all the trouble that goes with it ,and why would they risk a whistle blower grassing them up and it all comming out it's just ridiculous

but i'm sure that you will have invented a perfectly plausible(in your eyes)answer

Flyboy 23-12-2010 18:54
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 35142237)
I dont know is it. I was not there was you ?. I would need to be there to make a valid assessment.
So, you don't know what a riot is then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 35142142)
So yes i KNOW what a riot is like.
Which is it?

---------- Post added at 19:51 ---------- Previous post was at 19:49 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35142243)
At todays price a new basic model sprinter starts at £19,000 ,that particular model i.e extra long ,high roof ,3.5t is £29,975 +vat + modifications specific to use ,the 5 ton version is £35,000

merc link

so yes they did wreck a £30,000 vehicle
There is no way on this Earth that that van was worth anything even close to thirty thousand pounds.

---------- Post added at 19:52 ---------- Previous post was at 19:51 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35142245)
i'm sure a policeman will be along soon with a wildly fantastic and believable explanation .

the sign looks very dated and there is rust running from the rear windows ,is this how expensive vehicles are cared for -or is it how an old scrapper looks ?
Oh, it was most definitely a scrapper.

---------- Post added at 19:54 ---------- Previous post was at 19:52 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35142251)
which they would have to pay to replace it or do you think these things are free :rolleyes:
I rather suspect that vehicle was replaced something ago. Besides, what do you think the Metropolitan Police Service do with their old vans?

martyh 23-12-2010 18:54
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142313)
I don't understand the source of the confusion, but I'll try a different approach.
I'll use an example. Say hypothetically I own a shop and I want the shop window to get broken to claim insurance (or for whatever reason).
So, I take a £50 and leave in just inside the glass but in full view from outside.
Saturday night comes along, streets are packed with drunken idiots and hey presto the window gets broken and the £50 note stolen. Who's committed the crime, me leaving the £50 or the thief that broke the window and stole it?

C'mon guys, this isn't rocket science. Why are we even arguing about the silly pedantics? Clearly the vandals are still to blame for smashing the van, but I believe that it was most likely the intended outcome all along - based on the available evidence.

---------- Post added at 19:44 ---------- Previous post was at 19:38 ----------



#953


THAT is your explanation ? I'm clearly wasting my time if you have come to the conclusion that I think anything is possible.
I base my conclusions on evidence, and that thereby rules out all other possibilities which do not have supporting evidence. Therefore your argument is null and void.

With regards to what information the government and police feed to the the general public, I do keep an open mind - but not so open that my brains fall out.

like i said you haven't read the post you have chose to see what you want to see ,now read it properly ,ok then i'll walk you through it .I don't care what the explanation it is not relevant to anything apart from conspiracy therorists such as yourself you will choose to disbelieve anything that is official simply because it is official ,as far as you are concerened the truth is what you want it to be regardless of facts and evidence
I suppose you think it was parked there with no number plates on aswell :rolleyes:

Sparkle 23-12-2010 18:55
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35142316)
Absolute rubbish ,you have now entered so far into into the realms of fantasy land you have got lost on your way back to reality
Why would the police bother to encite a riot with all the trouble that goes with it ,and why would they risk a whistle blower grassing them up and it all comming out it's just ridiculous

but i'm sure that you will have invented a perfectly plausible(in your eyes)answer
Holy Moses, you think it takes a major operation to "accidentally" leave a van in the middle of an ensuring police kettle ?

You clearly haven't even bothered to check the facts, for if you had you'd already know the "kettle" actually closed in around the stationary vehicle, which could have moved at any time. Everything was monitored from the air, they saw the van there and did absolutely nothing. Yet one protester gets a little too cocky and a couple dozen officers in riot gear in so called "snatch squads" have no problem going in and grabbing him/her.

No major operation was necessary, all it took was one call to the driver to do another job, he's got the keys. Van isn't moving.
Then the kettle closes in, seemples *squilche*

---------- Post added at 19:55 ---------- Previous post was at 19:54 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35142326)
I suppose you think it was parked there with no number plates on aswell :rolleyes:
You clearly are lacking in a certain department, everyone knows the number plate was removed by the vandals. Get your evidence to back your conjecture or accept defeat ;)

Flyboy 23-12-2010 18:59
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by punky (Post 35142260)
I've heard some really stupid whiny excuses from some really study whiny students but to say that it's the police's fault that a police van was destroyed by a baying mob is really up there.

I don't think even truthers are that stupid or had that much front.
But there was no reason for a old scrapped police van to be there. Any ideas why they would have put it there?

---------- Post added at 19:59 ---------- Previous post was at 19:56 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35142262)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142254)
You know, actually I feel bad for the police on this incident. I accept that noone's perfect, and we all make mistakes. But for cripes sakes, how can they fapp-up the "bait" van?

I bet that if anyone gets disciplined in the MET over this incident, it won't be for leaving the van there, instead it'll be for fogetting to remove that sticker !
Why would anyone get disciplined because a bunch of morons chose to wreck a van ? the sticker may have been on the van from a breakdown who knows ,who cares ,it's irrelevant ,just because the van was parked there doesn't mean the morons have the right to wreck it ,well not in the reak world but in the world of FB and Sparkle anythings possible :rolleyes:
Broken down? What next, it was Doctor Who's new TARDIS design? Progressed from the Police Box to a riot van. :D

martyh 23-12-2010 19:01
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyboy (Post 35142319)


There is no way on this Earth that that van was worth anything even close to thirty thousand pounds.
doesn't matter ,that's what it's going to cost to replace it but since you appear to think it's ok to wreck a police van because it's old then i'll tell the police to get the cost of replacing it off you will i ?

---------- Post added at 20:01 ---------- Previous post was at 19:59 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142327)

You clearly are lacking in a certain department, everyone knows the number plate was removed by the vandals. Get your evidence to back your conjecture or accept defeat ;)
i'm surprised you believe it after all it is a fact

Flyboy 23-12-2010 19:07
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35142311)
you obviously missed #953
Oh please, it had broken down? :geez:

martyh 23-12-2010 19:11
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyboy (Post 35142329)
But there was no reason for a old scrapped police van to be there. Any ideas why they would have put it there?

---------- Post added at 19:59 ---------- Previous post was at 19:56 ----------



Broken down? What next, it was Doctor Who's new TARDIS design? Progressed from the Police Box to a riot van. :D

A) who said it was an old scrapped van
B) no-one said it had broken down ,i said it was possibly there as a result of a previous breakdown and just hadn't been removed ,i also said (if you even bother to read any of the posts properly)that it was irelavent why the van was there

any way this is now getting boring i'll leave you two conspiracy theorists to think up some more outlandish theories
i'm off to have a life

Sparkle 23-12-2010 19:12
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35142333)
i'm surprised you believe it after all it is a fact
I see, you're just being a windup.
If you find any evidence which explains why the "police aware" sticker was there, and why the vehicle looks like a scrapper I'd be interested to hear it.

In all fairness, I always keep an open mind. It is possible that there is a perfectly logical explanation for the mystery van, i.e. maybe a protester capped the exhaust and the driver couldn't start the engine, who knows.
If and when new contradicting information becomes available, I'll be happy to take it onboard.

But, after weighing in all the facts as they are available now, and considering how the MET has been unusually quiet on explaining how the van came to be there, I think the most probable explanation is that the van was deliberately left in the kettle as a PR stunt.

Flyboy 23-12-2010 19:14
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35142333)
doesn't matter ,that's what it's going to cost to replace it but since you appear to think it's ok to wreck a police van because it's old then i'll tell the police to get the cost of replacing it off you will i ?
Yes, because that's exactly what I said....oh wait a minute, when was it I did that again?

Osem 23-12-2010 19:16
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyboy (Post 35142220)
Maybe you wear them when looking at the police at protests.
:rolleyes:

That's rich coming from just about the most biased person here. Someone who's able to infer all sorts of 'facts' from the scantest of evidence when it suits yet demands almost forensic standards of evidence from those who disagree.

You're really rather good at double standards and hypocricy aren't you.

Flyboy 23-12-2010 19:18
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35142344)
:rolleyes:

That's rich coming from just about the most biased person here. Someone who's able to infer all sorts of 'facts' from the scantest of evidence when it suits yet demands almost forensic standards of evidence from those who disagree.

You're really rather good at double standards and hypocricy aren't you.
I use the same standards as you do apparently. Why the need to be so insulting and disrespectful, it doesn't do your argument any good at all.

vanman 23-12-2010 19:23
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
do this help
http://liberalconspiracy.org/2010/11...t-met-baitvan/

Osem 23-12-2010 19:24
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyboy (Post 35142346)
I use the same standards as you do apparently. Why the need to be so insulting and disrespectful, it doesn't your argument any good at all.
lol - there you go again. Do you recall some of the insulting garbage you've issued in the past? You talk about being rude and disrespectful but I don't suppose you see any double standards there either...

Flyboy 23-12-2010 19:32
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanman (Post 35142349)
They didn't appear very vulnerable. It seems as though senior police officers have too little faith in the courage of their men.

---------- Post added at 20:32 ---------- Previous post was at 20:31 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35142350)
lol - there you go again. Do you recall some of the insulting garbage you've issued in the past? You talk about being rude and disrespectful but I don't suppose you see any double standards there either...
Any chance of actually debating the subject at hand, or do you still wish to continue insulting other forum members?

Osem 23-12-2010 19:34
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyboy (Post 35142354)
Any chance of actually debating the subject at hand, or do you still wish to continue insulting other forum members?
Any chance of you ever answering a simple question?

martyh 23-12-2010 19:37
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanman (Post 35142349)
not really but thanks for trying ,this has already been discussed in detail here onwards

I think the conclusion i and others came too was that the van was simply parked ,it had to park somewhere,students started going past (peacefully) the police got out and 10mins later the van was surrounded and wrecked simply because it was there apparently ,it's a simple answer and no where nearly as complicated as certain members would like but there you go

Flyboy 23-12-2010 19:45
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35142358)
Any chance of you ever answering a simple question?
Which question would you like me to answer?

---------- Post added at 20:45 ---------- Previous post was at 20:43 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35142359)
not really but thanks for trying ,this has already been discussed in detail here onwards

I think the conclusion i and others came too was that the van was simply parked ,it had to park somewhere,students started going past (peacefully) the police got out and 10mins later the van was surrounded and wrecked simply because it was there apparently ,it's a simple answer and no where nearly as complicated as certain members would like but there you go
So, had it broken down then?

martyh 23-12-2010 19:47
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyboy (Post 35142364)
Which question would you like me to answer?

---------- Post added at 20:45 ---------- Previous post was at 20:43 ----------



So, had it broken down then?

no and no-one said it had ,for some reason you seem convinced it had

Flyboy 23-12-2010 19:49
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
You cited, twice, that it might have broken down. I was simply asking whether you considered your theory was proven yet?

Osem 23-12-2010 19:49
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyboy (Post 35142364)
Which question would you like me to answer?
I've only asked one - work it out.

Flyboy 23-12-2010 19:50
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Where?

Nonetheless, still not wanting to debate the subject of this thread then?

martyh 23-12-2010 19:53
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyboy (Post 35142370)
You cited, twice, that it might have broken down. I was simply asking whether you considered your theory was proven yet?
show me ,and be carefull or you will end up looking a bit silly,read them properly because i know what i wrote

Peter_ 23-12-2010 19:57
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkle (Post 35142283)
Have you actually read my posts? Plz don't be silly and go read them, you're wasting my time.
Read them yet? Good.

Now where did I say the rioters were the victims? Precisely.
Read, think, then type and in that order please.
From your holier than thou attitude that is where from, the rioters are **** and deserve to be treated as such and as I said above I would fully condone the use of Baton Rounds and Water Cannon on the streets if it stops **** like this from rioting and destroying property.

Lets hope that when the next demonstration takes place that firstly they are not allowed in Whitehall and secondly the Police are allowed to go in hard using as much force as required to subdue the troublemakers.

As for the van it is a none issue as all you are doing is trying to make people take their eye of the ball.

Flyboy 23-12-2010 19:58
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35142375)
show me ,and be carefull or you will end up looking a bit silly,read them properly because i know what i wrote
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35142262)
Why would anyone get disciplined because a bunch of morons chose to wreck a van ? the sticker may have been on the van from a breakdown who knows ,who cares ,it's irrelevant ,just because the van was parked there doesn't mean the morons have the right to wreck it ,well not in the reak world but in the world of FB and Sparkle anythings possible :rolleyes:
Now, before you reply, read my post again.

---------- Post added at 20:58 ---------- Previous post was at 20:57 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masque (Post 35142378)
From your holier than thou attitude that is where from, the rioters are **** and deserve to be treated as such and as I said above I would fully condone the use of Baton Rounds and Water Cannon on the streets if it stops **** like this from rioting and destroying property.

Lets hope that when the next demonstration takes place that firstly they are not allowed in Whitehall and secondly the Police are allowed to go in hard using as much force as required to subdue the troublemakers.

As for the van it is a none issue as all you are doing is trying to make people take their eye of the ball.
But then there are many who seem to have difficulty in recognising what was a riot and what was a protest.

Why should a demonstration not be allowed in Whitehall?

Peter_ 23-12-2010 20:01
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyboy (Post 35142379)




But then there are many who seem to have difficulty in recognising what was a riot and what was a protest.

Why should a demonstration not be allowed in Whitehall?
To prevent the **** vandalising property and trying to burn down the Treasury, or did you not notice any of this actually happening with your special glasses.

Flyboy 23-12-2010 20:04
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masque (Post 35142382)
To prevent the **** vandalising property and trying to burn down the Treasury, or did you not notice any of this actually happening with your special glasses.
Again with the insults?

martyh 23-12-2010 20:05
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyboy (Post 35142379)
Now, before you reply, read my post again.
yes exactly ,the sticker could have been on" from a breakdown" ,nowhere have i said that it had broke down on the day


but i'm not going to argue with you anymore as you clearly see what you want you want to see and don't bother reading posts properly or in context before posting replies

Osem 23-12-2010 20:07
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyboy (Post 35142373)
Where?
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/35142350-post980.html

That clear enough for you? I asked if you recall some of the offensive, insulting stuff you've posted because if you can't I might just remind you of it.

Hugh 23-12-2010 20:14
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Could forum members please try to stay on topic, and not focus on personalities.

Flyboy 23-12-2010 20:18
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masque (Post 35142382)
To prevent the **** vandalising property and trying to burn down the Treasury, or did you not notice any of this actually happening with your special glasses.
In that case why not ban all demonstrations in London, or anywhere else, for that matter?

papa smurf 23-12-2010 20:22
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyboy (Post 35142395)
In that case why not ban all demonstrations in London, or anywhere else, for that matter?
that sounds a little undemocratic . leaning towards dictatorship imo .

Flyboy 23-12-2010 20:29
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35142400)
that sounds a little undemocratic . leaning towards dictatorship imo .
Then the government's work will most certainly be done.

Maggy 23-12-2010 21:12
Re: Students Rioting in London.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masque (Post 35142382)
To prevent the **** vandalising property and trying to burn down the Treasury, or did you not notice any of this actually happening with your special glasses.
Just a quibble.Is it in Whitehall that you think should have all demonstrations banned or ALL demonstrations everywhere should be banned?


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