Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

That seems a little dramatic to me. It's unlikely there will be major electoral reform without a referendum.

---------- Post added at 20:34 ---------- Previous post was at 20:32 ----------

Only if you apply very twisted logic, but you've repeatedly shown to be capable of that.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

You think your clever work it out for yourself.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Haven't I shown I've got no idea? I'm British so why would the BNP be against me?

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Because you're a racist bigot? :scratch:

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

you're. Hee-Hee :D

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

you admit that not all of our unemployed are refusing to work then,because you put MANY of our own people.MANY your words not mine.
i personally think that not one job should be given to a foreigner whilst there is a british person stood in a dole que that could do that job,and if they say that the won't do that job then they should be put into the Army and taught that staying on the dole is not an option.
its no good taking there dole money off them like these idiots in government want to do.that will only encourage them to go thieving and robbing.

---------- Post added at 20:47 ---------- Previous post was at 20:46 ----------

And your names Gordon Brown.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

I hope not, unless the welsh are no longer british ....

Lets not start with this eh. Lots of people use your (including me).

---------- Post added at 20:50 ---------- Previous post was at 20:48 ----------

and this is not a schoolyard. Try not to act like it is.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

would these be british factories or foreign factories.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

John Ried's just gone up in my estimation. He doesn't think a Lib-Lab pact will wash because it will also require bribes to nationalists.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

so its ok for you lot to have your say is it but i can't have mine,is this what your saying.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Both.

Why do you hope the BNP would be against me?

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

I now know why your trying to goad me russ and i know why you don't like the bnp,frightened are you.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

How is that twisted logic? The Lib-Dems do campaign in certain areas on the basis that they are the alternative to the sitting MP(Conservative or Labour). As such, they are expecting people to not necessarily vote for the party that the voter wants but to vote Lib-Dem to vote out the party that the voter doesn't want. It's known as tactical voting.

Guardian article
BBC News item
So am I the one with twisted logic?

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Yes, of course, thats exactly what I said isnt it :rolleyes:

When you have finished making up things I never said, be warned, you really do not want to start a fight with me, there will only be one winner. :erm:

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

I'm not trying to goad you, I'm just trying to work out why you think the BNP wouldn't like a Welsh person moving to England to get a job.

As for frightened, I don't fear them but after witnessing the violent and thug-like behaviour of their supporters at the Anti-EDL rally in Swansea last year I can understand why some people would be.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

i think you know why the bnp wouldn't like you,and its got nothing to do with jobs.
but i see why you don't like the bnp and i suppose if i was in your position i'd feel the same.oh and i don't know if you know it but the edl is not the bnp so it was a edl rally that you were at,not a bnp rally

but i don't agree with everything the bnp say or do just like i don't agree with everything the main stream parties do,but after this election fiasco i think its time the english started to look after themselves and alex salmond and his party can go forth and multiply as they say and take gordon brown with him.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

There are plenty of British people who don't want to work. Or did you think that there was a sudden wave of disabling afflictions that washed over the country?

I've done 12 hour shifts with minimal breaks by the way, I've left home at 5am, arrived back at 10pm or later, and I've worked like hell in a warehouse. It's called a work ethic, something that is sadly missing from many people.

You seem to think that being British somehow makes us superior. Sorry to disappoint you but we're all pretty much the same underneath, nationality is just a label.

It is amusing though that you are so proud of being British yet can't write your own language properly.

---------- Post added at 21:17 ---------- Previous post was at 21:15 ----------

I agree, federalism is the way forward for England and the nationalist parties would have extremely undue influence in a Lab/Lib coalition.

What this has to do with your earlier xenophobic/nationalist diatribe though I'm not sure.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

OK please humour me and tell me why you think they wouldn't like me because for the life of me I have no idea. I'm as British as you presumably are so why would they not like me?

What is "my position"? Please don't hint or suggest, feel free to come straight out with it.

I was there, you were not: there were BNP flags, banners and posters being carried by large sections of them.

So what you mean is you're not so much a BNP supporter but rather an English Elitist?

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

LMFAO - What about Labour (Allegedly) filling their pockets from the donations from the Unions? Oh yes, you forget about that little detail..

If the shoe fits - wear it. Brief reminder why Labour have failed the people and LOST this latest election:-

Labour promised never to put up Taxes - they put up Taxes.

They said they would get tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime - Nice words but that is all they are, just words.

Labour were left red faced after abolishing the 10p Tax band.

Labour were in power when the expenses system was massively abused by MP's.

And 13,000 other odd failings by Labour that I just cannot be arsed to list.

The Labour party are an old and battered party and need to go regardless who will be the new leader.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

From what I understand he has little choice, he can hardly ignore what is written in their constitution, can he. How much credibility do you think that will afford him?

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Perhaps he is referring to your foreign partner?

Just a guess.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

This argument seems weak to me, The other parties hand their hands in the till. Can hardly trust them to have controlled the system when they were getting everything they could get their grubby mits on.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

:clap: :clap: :clap:

It's evident that those rose tinted specs are a major cause of selective amnesia as well as gross political misjudgement isn't it??..

New Labour have brought us to the edge of a massive financial abyss after 13 years in power spending borrowed money (and latterly printing currency) like there was no tomorrow and yet all some people can seem to do is whine about the previous government as if their errors are relevant now. :confused:

I'm wondering whether these same people run their personal finances the way New Labour have run the UK's.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

'Foreign'? You mean the one who was born here, holds a British passport, worked almost all her adult life and is now studying to be a solicitor?

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Boulton is an arrogant twit. He has spent the last six months telling everybody how to think and when someone reminds him of it, he starts shouting that someone else shouldn't tell him what everybody thinks of him. His job is to report the news, not have arguments with those who are in the news. He has lost tons of credibility in those five minutes. My guess is that he spent too long on the pub at lunchtime.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

My guess is lack of sleep :D Was funny when he lost it though.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

And Alastair Campbell is the epitome of even-handed balance....;)

btw, nice smear at the end of your post - most unlike you.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

It was the only reason I could think of for the comment as I had seen a post where you mentioned your partner, and to be fair the fact that someone is born here does not make any difference to some.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

How much of a pay cut are you prepared to take? How much of a pay cut are you prepared to accept nurses to have to take?

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

My pay has been frozen, and will be for 3 years - will that help (I work at a University).

The books have to be balanced somehow.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

But isn't it odd that they are the ones who scream, "British jobs, for British workers" and vote for the Nazis.

---------- Post added at 21:51 ---------- Previous post was at 21:50 ----------

But not British?

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

What????!!! You mean that there's no such thing as Brown's Utpopia in which everyone can just carry on getting pay rises regardless of where the money's actually coming from???.... :shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

British Nazis though.

If I had thought the BNP candidate in my area was in with a chance of knocking out the Labour candidate I would have willingly voted for her.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

I'm budgeting for no pay-rise for the next 2-3 years. Besides my chosen profession had an arrangement for pay that worked just fine for over 25 years until it was torn up by labour for no good reason, we weren't given huge payrises as and when the government felt like it.

I would suggest that the Police are not dealt with as 'normal' workers due to the restrictions placed on officers private lives.

As for your question I can see most public sector workers having to accept no payrises for the next few years which would be fairer than paycuts.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

My personal opinion is the the Lib Dems are being a little dishonourable opening negotiations with Labour while still in discussion with the Tories - they appear to moving away from "how can we serve the country" to "how can we help ourselves".

They may just be being pragmatic, but I think it may leave a sour taste in voters mouths.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Yes, and the longer this indecision goes on, the more the electorate are getting a taste of what 'doing business' with the Lib Dems will be like in practice.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Thank you for reminding me that the BNP bombed in the General Election, and lost 26 of the council seats they contested - that cheered me up no end.:D

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

I think they are making the most of their moment of power. I don't believe they will be smiling and flexing their muscles for much longer whatever happens.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

From the BBC I suppose they should get used to dealing with their new boss ;)

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

And several BNP councillors lost their seats... all 12 in Barking & Dagenham (including Richard Barnbrook).

The PR system used in the European Parliament elections was closed party list, IIRC.

The BNP vote in the two constituencies it gained MEPs wasn't actually higher than it was at the previous election (IIRC it was *lower*) - they won because fewer people in total could be arsed to vote, causing the BNP's share to be higher than before & pass above the threshold.

If the voter turnout is higher next time, they may not get back in.

If people consider they haven't done much of a job, they may not get back in next time.

And if they *do* get back in next time...well, as disgusting as it is IMO that people would vote BNP, that is their *right* to do so, and this is meant to be a Democracy...


Now, you may want to criticise that form of PR which was used in the Euro elections... and tbh I'd share your criticisms. I don't like the list system. But it's not the same form of PR as desired by the Lib Dems: STV.

Yup. Lower turnout caused the BNP's vote share in the winning constituencies to be higher despite them polling fewer votes.

Well, tbh, with our electoral system & under our (unwritten) constitution, what the majority of the country wants or does not want is fairly irrelevant, given that we do not have a system which is particularly proportional...

I don't know how you feel about FPTP, but I think that no-one who is a fan of FPTP can really, at the same time, also complain that the Tories should be in power, or have a right to be in power, simply because the majority voted against the alternative. It's a bit hypocritical IMO (I'm not saying you are, btw ;) ).

It doesn't matter if more people voted against Labour than for Labour, or against the Tories than for the Tories, etc. The Government is simply formed by the party (or parties, in a coalition) which has a majority in the House of Commons and as such is able to "command the confidence of the House of Commons".

There is nothing that says the Tories should have power due to the results we got, & nothing that says it is wrong for Labour + Lib Dems + Others to form a coalition instead.

It's just the way it is... and is one reason why I think it is unfair (along with that whole "9% of the seats on 23% of the vote" thing ;), plus of course the ability for one party to win the most seats & form a Govt. while losing the popular vote).

But, whether you see it as fair or unfair, it is the system we are currently stuck with...


I didn't realise they had decided anything? Give them a chance to make a decision, perhaps, before you slate them?

Read the link. It's a study by the Electoral Reform Society (which has been campaigning for electoral reform since 1884) which has been reported in that left wing rag.

Oh, & it's not just got adverts for pointless council jobs... even the Security Service advertises in the Guardian ;)

tbh, it is for me... it is hardly ideal, & as Chris said it isn't actually PR, but I think it is a step in the right direction. I can't see the Lib Dems getting anything better out of the Tories or Labour & I think they should concede that it's a fair compromise for now.

Indeed. I've never liked the man, but he has a point.


Anyway. This Guardian reading lefty Lib Dem member still thinks that the best option is a Lib-Con coalition... A stronger & more stable majority than a "Rainbow Coalition" or "Progressive Alliance", no concessions to nationalist parties, common ground on civil liberties & some other areas, & a referendum on AV. It'll do for me...

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

To be fair it is now clear that until then the Conservatives were not offering anything in the name of electoral reform (expect the equal population thing).

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

That's one way of looking at it. I'd be disappointed if they made a decision without examining every option. It's an important decision for Clegg and the liberals.

It could cost them dearly if the general public perceive them to be opportunist. Alternatively their credibility could increase greatly if their decision is perceived to be based on their desire to serve the country.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

What? A political party selling out their principles for a bit of power and influence?!

Who'da thunk it??? :D

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Except AV (what GB offered in the manifesto) and fixed term parliaments.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Yeah, but they offered that after the Lib Dems decided to open talks with Labour.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

My vote was to get rid of the local Labour MP.

My vote did not go to the BNP candidate, it went to an independant who didn't do as well as I hoped. I don't think the Independent candidate would have been very good as our MP, but it was all about voting Labour out.

I was surprised that Conservative did as well as they did in my area, although they were still miles behind Labour. With the high levels of people on benefits and the 16 hour a week workers topped up with credits in these valleys, Labour have many fans here.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Funny, I thought they said they would give first chance to the party with the most votes and seats - talking to someone else at the same time doesn't sound like doing that to me.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Oh, & re the ERS' "what if we used AV or STV" study linked to earlier in the thread...

http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/blog/?p=36

http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/n...p?ex=0&nid=469

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

They did open discussions with them first, 3/4 days worth in fact!

Anyway with this offer of AV I think they need to decide tonight to back the Conservatives and get this party started :D I think my favorite result would be an elected 2nd chamber. My main concern at the moment is the lack of balance when a party has a majority. Open season for them to pass crazy laws with the House of Lords being somewhat limited in their ability to vote things down (I know they have recently but as an unelected body it makes it difficult).

This could be done via PR. I would like to do the senate thing in America, so 1/3rd of the house up for election every 2 years, helps protect against both houses coming up for election at the same time and therefore prone to political opportunism and would prevent election cycle giving a party complete control.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

[QUOTE=Russ;35018606]OK please humour me and tell me why you think they wouldn't like me because for the life of me I have no idea. I'm as British as you presumably are so why would they not like me?

i'm afraid i'll not rise to your bait russ so you and your moderator chums can ban me from this forum,but i'm sure you know like i know why the bnp don't like people like you.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Yup, which could only happen after Brown said he'd go. I think Brown's resignation may have stirred things up at Tory high command, as him staying put was the main obstacle to a Lib-Lab deal.

---------- Post added at 22:16 ---------- Previous post was at 22:15 ----------


Indeed. Someone needs to hurry up and Activate The Queen!

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

I am just sick to death of a system where my vote doesn't count, every time I vote in a general election it's a wasted vote.

Labour have such a majority in this area that I can never see them loosing in my lifetime, no matter how bad they are.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Well, I think they should try to get more out of it as it seems to me that electoral reform won't be on the agenda for a while after this. If they agree to a half-baked compromise now and try to get more at a later date it won't look very good. Having said that, the Tories don't look likely to give them any more.

I should add that my preference right now is for a Lib/Con coalition, as the numbers for Lib/Lab are just too soft.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

I'm white, British and have 6 generations of the same going back through my ancestors so I have no idea what you're on about unless you're suggesting the BNP don't like the Welsh?

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

The Lib Dems are peeing me off now.

The country continues to go to pot, The Tories want to get things started righting recession, deficit, unemployment... And all the Lib Dems care about is making sure they can feather their nests by forcing an AV voting system on the public.

Priorities, priorities. :rolleyes:

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

<removed>

[/COLOR]i think you do because i don't believe your as dumb as your trying to make out you are.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

So they should just roll over and accept there will be no or very limited change to a voting system that is a massive disadvantage to them?

This is a time that could make a massive difference to them, and it's not at all clear when they get the next opportunity. I'm not at all surprised they are taking their time.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Hand on heart I have no idea what you're suggesting and I'm pretty certain no-one else knows either.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

I beg to differ so lets leave it at that then boyo.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

The Tories want to form a government with giving the Liberal Democrats as little as possible, The Lib Dems want to be part of a government and want as much as possible. They are bargaining.

I state this again. Despite what Tory Supporters may think, The Tories do not have a clear mandate to govern and must make compromises in order to do so. I love the idea of portaying the idea of PR as somehow a undemocratic power-grab, there are reasons to oppose it but it is more democratic than the current system, people get the parliament they voted for. Seems fair to me.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

its a bad day for democracy though when the next government of this country is going to be made up of the also rans.
and there going to change the way we vote without asking the electorate.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

i'm realy dumb so could you enlighten me ?

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

No it is not weak Damien - A party which is in Government has the power to stop abuse of such a systems - the Labour party allowed it while they were in power and only apologised and reformed (Or so we are led to believe they have) the expenses system when their utter greed got found out.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Well, whatever the outcome, it will be made up of also-rans, cause no-one actually won :)

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

no coz your names not russ.

---------- Post added at 22:32 ---------- Previous post was at 22:29 ----------

so if thats the case we should keep having elections until someone wins.not make up a coalition of the losers.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

The Lib Dems just need to make up their mind who they are going with.
I believe a Lib Dem/Con government has a chance, but a Lib Dem/Labour will be a short government before another election.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

During the run up to the election I distinctly recall (and have posted here about it previously) various Lib Dem spokesmen (including Clegg) being pressed on who they'd support in the event of a hung parliament. They stated they'd support the party with the largest mandate but refused to clarify whether this meant the party with the most seats or the most votes. They were hedging their bets then and are doing so now and it's not serving them well IMHO.

As for the prospects for another election, New Labour being the party of dodgy financial management that they clearly are, I'm not sure they'll have the funds for another run at it for some time.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

All the parties took part in that greed. The Tories were 2nd home flipping,duck-house buying, moat-cleaning abusers of the system as well. Saying we're so greedy we can't help ourselves so the those in charge need to stop us is hardly confidence inspiring. The Tories could not reform the system but they could elect to avoid the corruption themselves, which they didn't.

Replacing the corrupt sheriff with one of the corrupt inmates is not a exactly a victory is it.

---------- Post added at 22:34 ---------- Previous post was at 22:34 ----------

I agree.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Haven't you learn't yet.the first thing they learn when becoming an mp is,never tell the truth.followed by never answer yes or no.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

They may not have a mandate to govern - but they did get 2 Million more votes from the British people - surely that holds a lot of weight - this is a clear message that the British people didn't want the Lib dems in power and that they didn't want Labour in power - all this messing about by all the parties, and the Lib dems thinking nothing but themselves haven't they shown their true form don't you think?

Is it any wonder why voter apathy in this county is so high when you get this nonsense going on for days on end. It's an utter farce.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Well said Mick.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

It does hold a lot of weight. Hence why a lot of policy areas are closed off. Economy, Immigration, Europe, Foreign Affairs, Heath, Crime, are all areas in which there appears to be no discussion of change or compromise.

You say people didn't want Labour or Lib Dems in power but the Tories didn't win a mandate to govern so for the Lib Dems to give them one without addressing any of the concerns of people who voted for them would be disgrace.

Lib Dem showing their true form? Yes, to represent the people who voted for them and not the people who voted for the Conservatives. We live in a democracy and as unfair as this crappy system is, it's not so bad to let 36% of people decide the government.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Although the question was not directed at you, I presume you are happy having your pay frozen then?

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

democracy damien,what democracy.there even going to change the voting rules without asking the british electorate if its ok to do so.
A minority party wants it changed,labour are that desperate to remain in power that they'll offer the libdems anything they want.
please tell me whats democratic about that.in my book its bribery or blackmail,its certainly not democracy.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Funny Mick I thought this showed that everyone is fed up with a two party system.I know I am.I regard this as a real kick up the bum to both parties as being far too damned complacent.It's the feeling that neither Tories or Labour give a stuff about those people who live in the terraced back streets of every major town or city in the UK that leads to voter apathy.Years of neglect of inner city areas will lead to voter apathy.

This was a year in which apathy was reversed somewhat and more people were at the polling stations.

I actually had to queue to vote.I cannot ever remember having to queue since I started voting.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

So, what are you complaining about then? You got healthy pay rises and I presume you didn't refuse them and now you have got what you wanted, a pay freeze.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

actually they will have a referendum :rolleyes:

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

But convention dictates that they negotiate with the incumbent government first.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Link
That would mean that if there was to be an election soon after bringing in AV then the election would be using AV.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Crumbs, now Scottish Labour MPs are lining up to insist they won't sit on the Government benches with the SNP. Given the loud and very public objections from so many Labour MPs, I don't understand why the Dark Lord and his acolytes are still trying.

Tom Harris (Lab, Glasgow South) won't even support a bill on AV. And I bet he's not the only one.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

it's getting very confusing now ,GB said he was going to resigne ,now he is saying he will step down around the time of the party conference :confused: that's months away

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Totally understand that.

My vote isn't as wasted in my current constituency of Cambridge as it was in previous ones, at least. The last two I lived in were ridiculously safe seats, where there wasn't really any point in voting if it wasn't for the eternally incumbent MP.

I do think they should try & get more, but I find it highly unlikely that that could be possible. I think even offering up AV was probably extremely hard for the Tories to stomach, & I'm quite surprised that they actually did.

My heart would be more for a "progressive coalition", despite my hatred of many things New Labour has done, but my head quite clearly says Lib-Con: as you say, the numbers just won't work for Lib-Lab. I cannot see a Lib-Lab-Nats coalition being even remotely stable. And we need a stable Government right now, which isn't going to fall apart. If that means compromises on both sides, then so be it.

They're not forcing anything on the public. You can always vote "No" in a referendum...

Why should the Lib Dems just walk straight into a coalition with the Tories without getting some sort of deal? The Tories have no mandate to govern - they need the support of the Lib Dems, whether as part of a formal coalition, or some sort of "confidence & supply" deal.

Labour were hardly the only party tainted by the expense system scandal... Yes, they were in charge, but it didn't stop MPs of other parties taking the mickey with it...

Agreed.

As I mentioned earlier, under our system of government, the fact that they received more votes is irrelevant. The right to form a Government goes to whichever party or group of parties have (or can cobble together) a majority and so can "command the confidence of the House of Commons". Getting more votes than another party does not matter with respect to the system: The Tory party did not win enough seats for a majority, so it did not win... No one won.

If you want to talk about how many people did not want Labour in power, & how many people did not want the Lib Dems in power, then also consider this: 15.4 million people did not want the Tories in power (Lab+Lib), that's 4.7 million more people than those who did want the Tories. So surely that's a "clear message" that people don't want David Cameron? ;)

Until we ever (if we ever) get rid of our current FPTP system, that's simply how it goes...Numbers do not matter, at all, other than the number of seats to reach a majority in the Commons. Anything else is irrelevant unless we have a proportional system.

Yes, it sucks! But that is how it is. That is the system. There is no rule, nothing at all, that says "Tories got the most votes = Tories get to form a Govt.", or "Tories got the most seats = Tories get to form a Govt.". Not unless they hit the magic mark of 326.

I assume you do not understand the concept of a "referendum" then?

And the Tories are desperate to gain power that they are also offering the Lib Dems anything they want (well, within reason ;)).

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Way to miss a point completely. :rolleyes:

I've accepted that my pay will most likely be frozen for the next few years and I'm sure plenty of other public sector workers are the same.

Pay rises agreed under a formula that was the same for almost 30 years have nothing to do with labour throwing money at workers and then realising way too late the rises were not affordable.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Kirsty Wark just likened the current process to 'Deal or No Deal' at the end of Newsnight. If Nick Clegg doesn't want to end up with 1p he better stop rejecting the banker.
As a lib-dem voter I don't really want to see the tories back in power on the back of my vote but if we get a referendum on PR which will probably be passed(60% are in favour of it currently) it'll be worth it.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

But Labour also offered a referendum, didn't they?

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Only if the Lib Dems do a deal with Labour, and only then if the AV Bill actually passed the Commons...which is hardly guaranteed. [But if it did, it's still democracy, given that it is a case of our elected representatives debating & passing a law on our behalf, which is the point I believe.] However I myself prefer a referendum, & I'd hope the Lib Dem leadership would too...I think a referendum is required to give it more legitimacy.

Yup. Immediate legislation on AV would fail I think (turkeys voting for Christmas, etc.), while a "Progressive Coalition" would be doomed from the start.

He has to hang around for the moment because otherwise we wouldn't have a PM.

If the Lib Dems & Tories do a deal, Brown would resign as PM, & the Queen would invite Cameron to form a Government. Brown would then later resign as leader & be replaced by the time of the conference.

If the Lib Dems & Labour do a deal, Brown would hang around for a short time as PM until replaced. I did read something today that said the Labour party rule book does allow in situations like this for a rather quicker leadership contest than usual, with someone from the Cabinet getting the job (even if only as a caretaker).

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Labour offered AV guaranteed (no referendum), and a referendum on PR. The Tories offered a referendum on AV with the right for Tory MPs to campaign against it.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Not so sure on the "guaranteed" part though, unless they whipped it.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

But that's what i've been saying. The Tories are trying put the country first, the Lib Dems are trying to put themselves first. I don't care whether this is the best opportunity for them to do it, it's out of order.

There are at least a dozen things off the top of my head that are more urgently needed than voting reform.

The Tories have made numerous concessions, and I understand they don't have a clear mandate to govern. However it appears the Lib Dems are being patently obstructive here.

Its the Tories that have offered the referendum. The Lib Dems haven't agreed to that yet. The Lib Dems want to bring AV in unconditionally whether the public want it or not. So if the Lib Dems get their way (and they have ALL the power at the moment) I won't even get a chance to vote. Labour have offered unconditionally to introduce AV. So if they form a coalition I still won't get a say in it.

I know people keep saying "this happens all the time in ............. it's fine" but the fact that we can have 3 years of one unelected prime minister and then 5 more years with another unelected prime minister backed by a coalition of the 2 least voted-for parties puts us on par with a banana republic IMO.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

So right now the UK is a rudderless ship which no one in their right mind will deal with till there is some stability and all anyone can argue about is a voting system. Personally i couldn't give a stuff about voting reform i do care however about getting our public finances sorted out and the future of this country being secured all of which are infinately more important then who votes and what system they use. Seriously this is getting beyond a joke and we are in danger of looking a joke internationally the longer this dog and pony show goes on.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

I don't think any of us are in a position to make statements about who is putting what first. Your perception may be that the Tories are putting the country first, but their reluctance on yielding on genuine electoral reform will be seen as putting themselves first by others. (I'm leaning that way).

Unless you are privy to more info than I am, it's not clear at all what concessions the Tories have made.

Where did you get the info that the Lib Dems want to bring in AV unconditionally? I've certainly not seen that anywhere.

This doesn't happen all the time in ........, but it can happen. However, we don't elect Prime Ministers in the UK. It's a parliamentary Democracy. We elect a parliament. Having said that, I'm not that keen on Lab-Lib myself, I don't see it lasting very long.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

The Lib Dems want STV, not AV. We'll find out soon enough (well, hopefully soon enough!) whether the Labour & Tory offers of AV are enough for them.

I can find nothing that says that the Lib Dems want to bring in electoral reform unconditionally, whether the public want it or not, & I find it hard to believe they'd consider wanting to introduce a change such as that without any referendum (given that they want referendums on a proper written constitution; Euro entry (if economically viable to bother in the first place etc. etc.); EU in/out (if a fundamental change is signed up to), etc.).

When the Labour Government proposed its constitutional reform bill to introduce a referendum on the AV system, the Lib Dems tabled amendments to add STV instead of AV.[which were then defeated, before the whole bill later got canned prior to the dissolution of Parliament].

What other references I can find, say the Lib Dems support a referendum on electoral reform, not immediate legislation


Labour have offered immediate legislation to bring in AV, that doesn't mean the Lib Dems don't want a referendum - it is what Labour are offering in hope of bribing them.

And as mentioned earlier in the thread, if a Lib-Lab pact tried to pass a bill to bring in AV without a referendum, it could easily fail anyway. Those who think it would be unfair without a referendum would vote no, while many Labour MPs would vote no alongside Tory MPs simply because Labour hates PR as much as they do.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Are you not concerned about the fact that a party that nearly 1 in 4 (voting) people in the UK voted for got less than 10% of the seats in the Commons? I think sorting the finances can wait a couple of days in the light of that democratic absurdity.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

I'm going by William Hague here who is the only one talking. He said, and I quote:

That makes it quite clear. No referendum. Its either introduce it or no coalition. The public's wishes are meaningless here.

Its the Tories that table the referendum vote, quote:

And goes on to say that the choice lies with the Lib Dems of which there has not been a response yet.

If Hague is being misleading I would have though I would have thought someone would have contradicted him. Noone has so we can take it as truth until we hear otherwise.

Look if this was negotiation about anti-terror laws, ID cards, something that will seriously affect this country then yes it's fair for the Lib Dems to stand firm. The Tories have said on various issues they they have conceded ground as have the Lib Dems. However this is posturing to feather their own nest and has nothing to with the saftey, security or future of this country. This is to make sure that the Lib Dems get a larger share of the seats next time.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

In a referendum regarding electoral reform, will people vote on the basis of which system will keep their opponents out of office, rather than what is right for the country?

I ask this question here, although I probably think that in needs a thread of its own, but I am unsure as to whether the moratorium on political threads has been lifted yet. Could the Forum Team give us an update?

---------- Post added at 00:29 ---------- Previous post was at 00:21 ----------

Apparently "Dave" wants to bring back Ian Duncan Smith, David Davis and Michael Howard. What happened to "change?" Along with "Willie" Hague, this is more like "Back To The Future." The public had no interest in them the first time round, why bring them back from the dead now? Is it because he has realised he hasn't got a clue what he is doing?

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

I don't think that the lack of complaints from the Lib Dem camp should be taken as an endorsement of what Hague said. They are in negotiations, this is not a time where you go and quibble in public about what you may or may not have said behind closed doors.

You make it sound like it's an unfair request. Let me say it once more. Nearly one in four people voted Lib Dems, yet they got less than 10% of the seats. How the hell do you justify that?

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Is Adam Boulton cracking up? The election is over and he still wants to scrap like a street fighter. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NWAkxKQLQs

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

No one needs to justify it - its been the same for 100+ years has it not ? So why the sudden need to change it other than selfish gain on their part.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

So you're quite happy to just disregard nearly 25% of the voting public by appealing to history? Smashing...

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Chris has been running the Election threads - I'll ask him. At the moment though I would think anything regarding electoral reform would still come under the current GE thread, for the moment.

What Daniel said ^^^

I don't believe the Lib Dems have really been saying much. They've pretty much been keeping quiet while negotiations are ongoing.

I do not believe that Mr Hague was being misleading, but perhaps he was unintentionally not 100% accurate in his phrasing.

The Lib Dems goal is STV (fair for all parties & for *voters*, other PR systems would favour the LDs more than STV, but STV is the best option according to the ERS), not AV. The Tories would never offer STV though, so they have offered the same as Labour: AV. And I hope Clegg & co. consider it to be enough, as I do.

The Lib Dems have made zero mention previously of wanting to force electoral reform without public consultation. They want a referendum. Not just on ER, but on various other things (written constitution, etc.). They also pride themselves on being the most democratic of the three parties, & I cannot see them being in favour of immediate introduction of AV (or another system) without it being approved by the public.

Re. Labour legislating to introduce AV:

Clarification from them - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politi...10/8673807.stm

I don't see how you can :(