Re: smoking and the pub
 

Now now, that's a little reductionist ... it is not simply about protecting bar staff. It is about protecting everyone, including smokers themselves by providing added incentive to quit. That's a far larger constituency than the 54 in your caricature.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I should be so lucky :rolleyes:

Yep, the pubs in Swindon are a lot better and more ventilated than in Scotland apparently, but the traffic jams stink - literally. I spend the best part of an hour each day in traffic... I wish I could spend the same amount of time in the pub too :D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

You're right, we are going round in circles, because no matter how strongly you try to assert the right of the smoker to choose where and when he lights up, you fail to account for the right of the non-smoker not to breathe in the smoke.

Suggesting that the non-smoker should not go to the pub simply will not do. Why should the non-smoker be denied the right to go to the pub? It's as if the willingness to act in the best interests of our health is being portrayed as some kind of moral cowardice!

Re: smoking and the pub
 

1. Currently, yes. (Although do we know this for sure?). Anyway, if smoking becomes banned in pubs, this could very well change.
2. I want to be able to go out in an evening just like everybody else, and not have to worry about damaging my health through passive smoking.
5. But as we have said a thousand times it is not always that simple, some people do not have a choice.
6. I am not denying you the right to enter or dine anywhere.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

It would be worth it if 1 life was saved.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

:tu:

Exactly!!! Never mind all of this only 54 bar staff die every year due to passive smoking. That's a hell of a lot of people!! And yet smoking should still be allowed in public places because otherwise it's an infringement of people's right to choose? ********!! There are 54 families out there mourning the loss of a family member, sod your right to choose!

Re: smoking and the pub
 

One thing missing in the thread is tolerance. Everyone has made their rights known but what about consideration?

It's not a simple question of person A wanting X and person B wanting Y. The issue is weighted in that person A wants X but person B does not want to be damaged by X. However person B's desire does not harm anyone just slightly inconvenience them. In this situation tolerance is needed and not selfishness..

Re: smoking and the pub
 

1. The group is self-selecting, because many non-smokers stay away. It is not a valid, representative group for the purposes of gathering opinion.
2. So a minority of the population make pubs effectively off limits to the majority, whose only crime is to care about their health. Conversely, no-one is forcing you to smoke, apart from your own addictive habit - which you can still indulge in outside, where it affects no-one but yourself.
4. We probably went over it a few dozen times already anyway, don't worry, I'm sure it'll be back ;)
5. So, Johnny Chav, who left school with no GCSEs and no prospects, finds this is the only thing he is fit to do, but he's expected to turn it down (and lose what meagre benefits he might be entitled to as a result) because he cares about his health? You're living in cloud cuckoo land. A great many people are not privileged with the flexible job prospects that some of us have.
6. The only effect on you is an average five minutes added to your life for every fag you don't smoke while sitting in a non-smoking establishment. So sue me. :D




3. Told you it'd turn up!

Re: smoking and the pub
 

http://www.thehumorarchives.com/humor/0001171.html

Well I'm giving up right now :D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

So bar work is only for thickos then Chris? :rolleyes: How snobbish and judgemental do you get?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

It's a good point. More tolerance in all aspects of life. :tu:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

That is not what I said, not what I intended to say, and if you could stop being Miss Angry for a few seconds this afternoon it would be abundantly clear to you.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

You were implying that if you don't do well at school the only kind of job you'd be able to do is bar work. Or did I read it wrong?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I'm afraid that's how I had interpreted it too... although I'm sure that was not what was intended :(

edit: oops, meant was not intended... my bad :)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

He wasn't saying that bar work is only for thickos. That is twisting the words. As far as I understood, the basis of what he was saying that it is difficult to get work these days without qualifications, but bar work is one of the few things you can do. That doesn't mean only people without qualifications do bar work.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Um, yeah, ok then :dig: :dig:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

One for each side:

I have every sympathy with the American who was so horrified by what he had read of the effects of smoking that he gave up reading. -- Henry G. Strauss

Isn't having a smoking section in a restaurant like having a peeing section in a swimming pool?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

No, I was saying that the statement that has been made many times in this thread, that if you don't like working in a pub you can always leave and get another job, does not hold true for many people who do not enjoy the benefit of professional training and prospects.

In the context of the discussion we're having, why on earth would I choose to suddenly state that bar work is for people who do badly at school? It would be entirely off topic as well as untrue.

Actually there are a great many people in a great many jobs who for one reason or another can't simply walk away even if they wanted to. Sometimes this is due to lack of training, sometimes its family circumstances (your current employer might be very accommodating when your personal circumstances change, but just try getting the same consideration from a new one).

There - now I've said in three paragraphs what I thought was clear in one sentence. Do context, and my own posting history, count for nothing?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

:tu: That's funny as well as true.
:tu:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

This legislation is concerned with the protection of employees in the work place. Again, why not target the hugely more damaging general pollution problem that is affecting you all the time, every day, every night instead of a problem that affects you for a few hours a week and can be reduced to practically zero using good ventillation, dedicated smoking areas.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Chris, could you please post a link to any research that has been done which shows that non-smokers make up the majority of patrons of public houses. I know the approximate percentage of the UK population who are thought to be smokers but have never seen any survey that gives the percentage of public house patrons who are thought to be smokers.

Nobody is forcing anyone into a smoky public house if they want a night out even if there are no non-smoking public houses in the area. There are other places that are non-smoking where you can have a very good night out. Theatre, cinema, restaurant, etc. etc.

I think what you were really trying to say is that there is nowhere to go for a good night out that serves alcohol. If smoking was banned in all public houses then the smoking fraternity (which could be a majority of patrons) would have nowhere to go for a good night out in a place that serves alcohol and allows smoking.

If there is a lack of no-smoking public houses in an area it is most likely because the majority of pub goers want to enjoy a smoke whilst there. You can't tell me that every pub owner is more concerned with tradition and fear of losing custom by becoming non-smoking. If the vast majority of people are non-smokers and most of these only go to smoking allowed pubs because there is no alternative the there is huge potential to reap the massive rewards that opening a no-smoking pub would bring.

Smoking and passive smoking are bad for the health. I don't think that anyone in this thread is saying otherwise. There are beneficial factors for some people in smoking, not everything is negative. The statistics on deaths caused by smoking and passive smoking however have to be subject to analysis. There is a huge difference between saying a person died of a smoking related illness and that smoking killed them. A smoker may die from lung cancer for instance but it may not have been smoking that caused the cancer to develop but the death would more than likely be classed as being caused by smoking.

Many of the deaths from illnesses that could be smoking related are in the over 65 year old age bracket. These are people who probably started smoking in their teens when filter tipped cigarettes were very rare indeed. Will we see a reduction in deaths in this age bracket in future years due to smokers being introduced to the habit with filter tipped cigarettes? Logic says that we will see a reduction because of this fact and the other fact that less people are now smoking. The non-smokers will point to the reduction as being evidence that a smoking ban in public places has caused the reduction.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I certainly didn't mean to sound callous but we seem to be ignoring the bigger picture based on personal preference rather than scale of the problem.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

This is an excellent point. A single parent for example may have childcare problems and may only be able to get a babysitter during the evening - he/she may not have a car, but there is a local pub on the corner that can give them the flexibility he/she needs as well as being easy to reach. The same could be true for a carer, someone with money problems who needs an extra job, or a young person who needs some pocket money and yet cannot travel far so needs to earn by glass collecting. All of these people are restricted in terms of when and where they can work, and do not have the liberty to choose between a smoking and a non-smoking establishment.
__________________

My comment wasn't aimed at you, rather everyone. Particularly those using the 54 figure as if it were negligible. Sometimes in this thread I get frustrated with all of this talk of personal choice and freedom etc because it seems to ignore the very basic facts.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Well they should stop complaining. A hundred years ago and they'd be down the Pit.

Shall we see if thread can continue meandering along until Christmas?

In this country - Pah, the "ban it" brigade rule over here.

Guns, Knives, smoking, drinking, jokes about religion and it goes on......

Banning something, especially in a supposedly "free" country such as ours is the easy way out, the unimaginative way out, the way out for none thinkers, a way out for people who don't want to really solve issues, a way out for people who can't see past the end of their nose.

Ban smoking - job done, what's next?

Unruly kids - ban them, we're cooking today - what next?

Drinking on trains - ban it, next?

and so it goes

Re: smoking and the pub
 

:bsmack:
I'm very happy guns and knives are banned. Drinkin ain't, and as for religion - don't even go there...:Sprint:
Can you suggest any alternative?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Don't participate in activities you don't want to do.
Avoid areas where those activities occur.

I can't stand certain types of music, rather than calling for it to be banned, I do the sensible thing of simply avoiding it.
I don't like watching certain types of TV programs, but rather than wanting those programs banned, I do the sensible thing of not watching them.
It's not hard you know.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Very different - at the current moment where would you suggest someone who does not like smoke, goes out to socialise??

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Find a non-smoking pub? Most of the pubs round here have well ventilated and segragated smoking areas. What about non-smoking restaurants? Cinemas (all of which, round here, have banned smoking)? It's actually not that difficult.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

The types of music and the types of TV programmes you don't like aren't harmful to your health. All types of music and tastes of TV programmes are catered for. If you want to listen to a certain type of music I don't like, I will not be affected by it, and nor will my health.
It's not complicated you know.
I am happy for you that you have such well-equipped pubs in your area. Not all areas do. Besides, as SlackDad said, having a smoking area in a pub is like having a weeing area in a swimming pool.
What if I don't want to go to a restaurant or to the cinema? I want to go to a pub. Need my health be compromised by my indulgence in this great British tradition? Or could you perhaps do me, and all of the other non-smokers, and the staff in the pub a small favour, and step outside for a wee minute to smoke your fag?
:blah: I have said it all once and no doubt I will say it all again...

Re: smoking and the pub
 

My point was that it is possible to find non-smoking forms of entertainment (including pubs).

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Please don't - and that goes for the rest of you ;) :D

Anyone got anything new to say?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I know. :)
I want to say that I am not some complete anti-smoking nazi. I have friends that still smoke, I don't look down on them and I miss smoking myself sometimes. I think the fact that non-smokers have been made out to be 'moaners' 'selfish' and 'ignorant' has got my back up however, and this is why my posts may have come across as harsh in the thread at times.

I think my main point though is and has always been that smoking kills and that the more we bemoan the nanny state and plead our right to free choice, the more the focus becomes dragged away from this very critical foundational point. :soapbox: :D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

What a fantastic web site! :D It was worth having this thread just for that link. :tu: :tu: :tu:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

The first man to wear a tophat was arrested for distubing the peace.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Have you ?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Nope.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

My challenge that Slackdad failed in also goes out to you: find a non-smoking pub in Swansea or Port Talbot please :)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

They most certainly do have a detrimental affect on my health, they increase my stress levels, which increases my blood pressure, which increases my chance of having a heart attack and dying.
"Aren't harmful to your health" bovine excriment!
Smokers and non-smokers are also catered for, but you don't seem to be able to see that.
__________________

Apparently there is one in Swansea's Wind Street Russ, don't have the name of it though

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Yeah and that's comparable to the dangers of smoke inhalation...:rolleyes:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

The Lounge, and a few pages back I supplied the link which showed it closed earlier this year.

My challenge is still open to bidders from the "there are plenty of non-smoking establishments around" brigade.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Yes, in that I have a choice whether to expose myself to either.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Well, I saw this posted on another site and thought it was amusing.

Drinkers will be next. The damage to society caused by alcohol is great. The bar of the future: smoke free, alcohol free with a crÃÃâ€*’¨che, soft drinks and approved non-threatening music playing in the background. :)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

You know what I meant Xaccers the health risks are not comparable.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Really? They both can lead to increased blood pressure which is detrimental to one's health, or does that not count because one increases your chance of getting cancer?
So you think something that's detremental to my health that you aren't bothered by doesn't warrent a ban, but something which is detrimental to your health but other people aren't bothered by does warrent a ban?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Oh come off it Xaccers if you are being serious you are clutching at straws to say the least....As well you know smoking leads to a million and one problems besides increased blood pressure...

In fact I am not even going to go there, you know this is a ridiculous comparison to make.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Is 90% good enough?

http://pub-explorer.com/southwales/p...llansamlet.htm

Still 1 doesn't exactly give you much choice though does it?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Did it close or did it just do a U turn because it couldn't afford to stay open as a non-smoking establishment?
Surely the argument that there are loads of people just dying to go to the pub but don't want to put up with smoke is shot down in, um, smoke, by that pub moving from non-smoking to smoking?
If the majority of the population are non smokers who want to go to the pub but don't because of smokers, then that place should have been packed.

As for complaining that the nearest one now is 20 miles away, the nearest good restaurant (non-smoking of course), or cinema for that matter is about 20 miles away from me (1hr round trip) and I do it because it's my choice.
__________________

No, the comparison you are trying to make is rediculous, that one give more health issues than the other.
The comparison I'm making is that they both give health issues, but in both cases, you and I have the choice to expose ourselves to those risks or not.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

It closed but was bought out and they put all the old staff back in - and you may well have a point about that aspect of the argument being shot down but at the same time the argument of "stop complaining, there are enough non-smoking pubs around" must also be shot down. But bear in mind also that Swansea Council failed offer it support in the way it has totally blitzed the rest of Wind Street with financial packages.

Fine - I'm in the camp of "more choice" than "outright ban" - I'm just pointing out the inconsistencies of many smokers' points.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I'd love there to be an airsoft site right on my doorstep rather than paintball sites.
Now, because there is a greater demand for paintball sites, there are more of those closer to me.
If demand for airsoft was equal too or outstripped that of paintball, then there would be more airsoft sites.
However, no matter how much I'd love there to be an airsoft site on my doorstep, I would not want legislation to be brought in to provide this.

Similarly, with non-smoking establishments, if there was sufficient demand for it, then no smoking pubs would be able to survive.
As it stands, the demand for a smoking, or smoking with no-smoking area establishments outweighs all others.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

My own feeling to that would be that the need for a safer, cleaner environment for people like me to socialise outweighs all others but I guess that doesn't count.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Do you have to go to a pub to socialise?
Why not have dinner parties, or evenings around friends' houses?
Is there no social club linked to your church?
The choices are endless.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I don't have to - in as much as all I have to do is eat, drink, breathe etc but I'd like to - plus I work in a social club too, whether I'm behind the bar or doing a DJ set.

Valid point - but it's nice when we can all relax without or (or two) people needing to be hosts.

No, it's a very small church.

Hmmm....

Re: smoking and the pub
 

But why should the pubs be reserved for smokers?
The two things you are comparing are not comparable. You may wish not to listen to hardcore music, but if you do, you will not be exposed to dangerous substances. You may feel a little stressed, but then I am sure many of things stress you out in life, this being of the least consequence. The direct impact on your physical health has not been proven to be sufficiently great to introduce a ban on certain types of music. End of story.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

There is one on Wind Street... can't remember the name of it, but it is on the opposite side to Lloyds bar... is it called Bar One or something? never been in there so can't remember the name!!

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Yep - and for the third time in this thread is was called The Lounge, but it closed down earlier this year!

Re: smoking and the pub
 

They aren't, non smokers are free to choose to enter a smoking pub. It's totally up to you if you want to or not, the landlord doesn't inform the doorstaff to not allow non-smokers to enter.

The two things I'm comparing are comparable, hence why I'm comparing them.
You however want me to be trying to compare two uncomparable aspects of those things, which I will not do to satisfy you.
__________________

Because not enough non-smokers went there...

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Or you could show the full picture - it was constantly overlooked for business aid and other financial packages from the Welsh Assembly and Swansea Council.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

however if there had been a sufficient client base, it would have been a financially viable venture, and therefore not required any aid.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Xaccers just accept you nothing about the circumstances surrounding The Lounge.

The aid packages in question are offered to any business seen to be at a distinct disavantage in the Swansea area. The Lounge was overlooked on 4 occasions.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I just find it strange that they would have been able to set up a business with financial backing from a bank on the premiss that their business could not succeed unless they got an aid package.
Have the new owners recieved aid packages?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Didn't you read the second paragraph above? It's a package open to business in the areas which can demonstrate they are at a distinct disadvantage or are seriously at risk from increased or new competition. Take my word for it (and I'm sure Chris W can back me up on this) that Wind Street is FULL of bars - every other building is a pub or club, there must be at least 30 of them on a road just over a quarter of a mile long. All are 'smoking' bars - The Lounge had trouble keeping up with them. Bear in mind that it did not start up as a non-smoking pub.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

So I take it that as the new owners haven't gone bust too, that either:
1. They've gotten the business aid packages which the previous owners missed out on 4 times in a row
2. Smokers drink enough to keep them in business

Re: smoking and the pub
 

The new place has only been open a few weeks.

Are you under the impression that I'm suggesting that pubs will be kept in business by non-smokers? Because as far as I'm aware, I've never said or implied that.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Over 30 pubs and clubs in such a small area and just one non-smoking pub cannot make enough profit to survive? The remaining pubs that allow smoking have survived even though the vast majority of people (as claimed by some posters in this thread) want to escape the smoky environments that smoking pubs have. I think that fact tells you a lot about what most pub goers want and that isn't a ban on smoking. Most pubs in this country don't have grants to help them survive so why should The Lounge be any different? If The Lounge had difficulty keeping up why was that?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I'll try to make this as clear as I can...

I know fully well that non-smoking pubs are likely to be at risk due to the majority of people in the area not wanting to go there.

The point I have tried to make (and evidently not hard enough as no-one seems to take any notice) is that the argument of "If people want a non-smoking pub then go and find one as there are enough of them around" is worthless.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Oh definitely, I don't want to come across as suggesting you said that at all because you never did :)
If I understand something you said a little while back, you're for more choice than a ban, such as more establishments becoming non-smoking on their own accord rather than being forced to by legislation.

Why I appear to be harping on about The Lounge is because you've given us an actuall example of a pub which had decided to become non-smoking, and closed down afterwards.
Now, given that the new owners have not continued with the non-smoking status, this suggests that they do not see it as a good business venture, which suggests that it was also not a good business venture for the previous owners and led to them selling up.
If over a similar length of time, and also without the business aid packages, the new Lounge is a success, we can infer from this that as a smoking establishment, it is able to survive whereas a non-smoking establishment, it faltered.
This has serious implications on the impact of such a ban on other establishments.
Pubs which don't serve food will be unaffected.
Pubs which currently do server food will have to decide whether to continue with food and hope they don't loose on the more profitable drink sales, or give up serving food which leads to more people drinking on an empty stomach, and you know what effect that has!

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Sadly the highest number of smokers these days IIRC is in the age group that frequent Town Centre pubs and clubs on a regular basis and still have the belief they are invincible (hence IMHO the failure of this particular premises).
Those of us who feel our mortality more would like the chance to just go to the pub and have a few drinks, play some cards (or whatever) and generally relax in a smoke free environment, and not have our already failing hearing destroyed further by loud music, or our waistlines increased by food.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

And all that is rather irrelevant to the point I made above.

Yes I'm in favour of more choice - with the right support, promotion and backing, a non smoking pub can survive.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Then why not open one yourself if they are in such demand?

The reason that non smoking pubs don't survive is that the people that frequent pubs on a regular basis and thus keep the pubs in business are mainly smokers. If the non-smoking public would get up off their backsides and support a pub in their area that is brave enough to go non-smoking then there would be no need for this nanny stateism from the government as both smoking and non-smoking pubs would flourish.

A few pubs here have tried it and had to switch back due to falling business. Wetherspoons can only do it because their prices are ridiculously cheap which keeps the punters in.

If non-smoking pubs flourished then the non-smoking bar staff could go and work at them if they feel that strongly about it.

Instead of foisting a ban on what seems to be the majority of pub goers we would have choice and no diktats from Tony and co.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I'm not a businessman/I don't have the capital/It's not my chosen profession...I could go on but I think I'll stick with "I didn't say they are in such demand".

Yep, been saying that for ages.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I don't know what you're talking about any more but that's ok cos I don't think you do either...
Which proves that only a blanket ban would work, because otherwise we will not be able to have a choice of smoking or non-smoking pubs.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Again I agree, it has nothing to do with the point you made about lack of choice, but it has everything to do with the point other people have made suggesting that there are enough potential punters out there just gagging to to to the pub but won't because of smokers.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I didn't say you did. :)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

But wasn't the point that when given the choice the non-smoking pub folded?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

We still won't have a choice under a total ban.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Well point it at someone else then!!

In that case I apologise but you REALLY need to make use of the 'quote' button.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I was comparing two things and demonstrating that the exposure to the risks is in my hands, you, well you were going off in a tangent, possibly because you didn't want to admit that my point was correct, possibly for other unknown reasons...

The new law however would force pubs which serve food to either go non-smoking (and lose business, maybe even go out of business) or go non-feeding.
So rather than having a no-smoking area where people who don't wish to participate in passive smoking can go and eat and drink, and a smoking area for everyone else, you get a pub which is smoking only, and does not serve food, so a lot of people are now drinking on empty stomachs.
So as a non-smoker who doesn't want to go into any building where a cigarette could be lit, you still won't want to!
__________________

I was responding to the information you provided because no one else has provided it, sorry if it came across as otherwise Russ

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Isn't this whole discussion about the demand for non-smoking pubs from the non-smoking fraternity?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Well the original post pointed out that such a ban would reduce the number of cigarettes smoked, which in turn would reduce the tax revenue from cigarettes, so taxes elsewhere are likely to go up to compensate...

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Yes, but throughout this thread other people have come forward with other views. Making a post like that in the middle of other conversations is going to cause misunderstandings, as I demonstrated...

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Just think of the taxes in years to come when more people live longer and receive pensions for a much longer period.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Exactly!
We should be encouraging unhealthy living, dangerous sports, running with scissors etc

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Yes exactly. If there were a blanket ban however, non-smoking pubs wouldn't lose out to other pubs, so all pubs would be on an even playing field.
No but at least then everyone can go to a pub, rather than just the smokers, who can just nip outside for a fag.
There was no tangent, you were comparing passive smoking to having to listen to someone else's music, I said that the difference is there are no health implications with the music case. (Except that you then decided it would raise your stress levels, which as I pointed out is nothing compared to the health risks associated with smoking.) It is as simple as that and I genuinely have no desire to discuss it further.
Well as you and many others are arguing against the nanny state, we won't worry too much about the empty stomachs, as I am sure most adults do not need to be fed by nanny. If people are going to drink irresponsibly they are going to drink irresponsibly.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

You erroneously stated that raised blood pressure and stress levels were not a health risk, I corrected you.

However it would be a nanny state, a bad nanny who doesn't give her wards the ability to smoke and eat at the same time as drinking.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I am worried about the effects of passive running with scissors. Why should I be faced with this threat in my local?

I can imagine the scene - I am there having a pint and a fag, when the black market indian takeaway delivery arrives - there is a mass exodus of gasping boozers who all dash outside for a crafty bit of illegal nosh in a quiet corner of the car park hoping the food police dont raid that night.

Just as you rip into a bootleg poppadum, some slavering maverick mad dog maniac runs along with scissors trying to do a runner with the illicit contents of your carrier bag with 2 dulled out tin foil cartons in.

I slink back into the den of eniquity, pausing only to light a roll up, cursing the good fortune of the happy families in the brightly lit airy smoke free cloned happy diner kitchen fun kiddies room carvery black forest gateau big mac even if its not raining eatery accross the street. How I envy them their 4oz rump steak (£37.99 - alternative Tuesdays buy one, buy another one, we charge you double offer) as they delicately sip on their lemonade or vimto fruit juice cocktail.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

No I didn't.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Oh Really?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I don't really follow the logic here although I see your point about an even playing field. If there were, as has been stated around 30 other smoking pubs/clubs etc. within close proximity to the single non-smoking establishment would this not have meant that the odds were stacked in favour of this establishment as it had limited competition. In fact a virtual monoploy on non smoking pubs within this area. Would not, as has been claimed on this thread, all the people who insisted on a total smoke free environment frequented more often. Quite simply, where was the demand for just one non-smoking pub?

I accept that there may have been other reasons why this one particular establishment didn't succeed, but it at least serves as an illustrative example of pro-banners not really putting there money where there mouth is. But no doubt the pros will conveniantly overlook this fact and go on to argue that all smoking, everywhere, for all time, should be banned regardless.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Xaccers I never said that higher blood pressure levels, or stress levels were not bad for your health. I said that when you listen to music you don't like, it is not bad for your health. Can you see the difference? If listening to music you don't like stresses you out, then that is different, despite the fact that I disagree that it will affect the health of the general population as much as passive smoking. Now can we drop this?
The point I was making was that people were saying the non-smoking pub was losing out to smoking pubs. This would not happen if all pubs banned smoking. People were saying that given a choice, landlords would not ban smoking for commercial reasons. I say, this may be true, but my major concern is not for the profits of the landlords. If a blanket ban is introduced, the pubs, as I said, will all be in an even playing field.

Furthermore, why should the non-smokers have just one, out of 30 pubs to go to?

If it were a choice between all pubs allowing smoking, or all pubs banning smoking, then surely you can see the logic for the blanket ban?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

But is stands to reason that if a non-smoking pub was in demand then this one would have prospered. The pubs may be on an even playing field if a blanket ban was introduced but clearly would not be catering for demand. An even playing field would also be to have 15 smoking and 15 non-smoking, would it not?
(Also of course, the Government fudge is clearly not creating an even playing field).

Agreed, make many more pubs smoke free to create a fairer choice for all. But why hasn't this happened? As I said before 15 smoke free/15 smoking. 8ut even in this case I wonder which 15 would prosper?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I understand the logic behind what you're saying. However as I have said before, if a blanket ban is introduced, then I very much doubt a significant proportion of the population would just stop going to pubs. Smokers would just have to adapt. In a market where there are smoking and non-smoking pubs, the non-smoking pubs may well lose out. But that is not the point of what I am saying. Of course smokers won't like having to go outside. I have never argued for smoking and non-smoking pubs, a blanket ban, perhaps with sealed smoking rooms would mean that pubs would not lose out to each other, smokers could continue to go out drinking and either smoke outside or in the smoking room, and non-smokers could also go out drinking and not have to passively smoke.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I'm not so sure. Of course many pubs and clubs will still prosper but I also believe more and more people will have parties etc. at home meaning that again the winners will be the supermarket profits, and an increased risk to children of passive smoking.

A smoking room. Now there's a thought.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Xaccers.

You simply cannot compare the dangers of smoke inhalation with the levels of stress generated by music you do not like. Stress per se is not bad for you. Some levels of stress are actually good for you. Long term stress is the issue for bad health. The same with blood pressure. Standing up from a seated position increases your blood pressure for example. It's not harmful though. However inhaling smoke not only "stresses" your body but it causes your arteries to constrict almost immediately and indeed to passive smokers too. Long term it contributes to atherosclerosis which can lead to heart problems. Add to that the myriad of other diseases that I mentioned smoking causes before and you surely must see that the comparison is silly.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I always thought that successful companies prospered because they gave their customers what they want at a price that they like. I thought that competition enabled those objectives to be met. I now realise that I was wrong and that government legislation should level the playing field so that companies who don't give their customers what they want at the right price shall not be disadvantaged. :rolleyes:

Non-smokers would still have the choice of 30 pubs to go to but I know that you will counter that by saying they are excluded from all because there is no smoke free sections in any of them. Perhaps they should all be forced to have a sealed no-smoking room or outhouse with its own bar and non-smoking staff to cater for their needs. In the interests of fairness I would make the point that non-smokers having a 1 in 30 chance of finding a smoke free pub would be in a better position than smokers who would have no choice of pub where they are allowed to drink, socialise and have a smoke.

You are forgetting the third and IMHO better choice that pub owners should be free to decide whether smoking is allowed or not. Logic appears to have vanished from the dictionary of some people who are against something that cannot possibly harm them if they take their rightful decision not to enter a place where smoking is allowed.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

The 'freedom of choice' argument is presented over, and over, and over again - yet I have not heard any adequate justification why the smoking ban should have a unique status among all other pieces of health and safety legislation in being optional.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

If we were talking about an outright ban on tobacco you might have a point. As it is, smoking remains a legal activity.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

And it makes you look cool ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Being allowed to smoke isn't about what people want. As I have said before a million times, smoking/non-smoking is not comparable to other such choices as gay/straight bars or live music/quiet pubs.

This is a health and safety issue.
What makes pub owners so special? Plenty of other business owners have no choice about whether or not they allow smoking on their premises. Why do you think pub owners should be any different?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Virtually everything in life has health and safety risks. Banning smoking in all enclosed public spaces is not on the statute books and therefore does not have a unique status. The law isn't that smoking is banned in all enclosed public spaces with certain exceptions if you care to read up on it.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

That one has been done. We have already countered it by saying that many laws and health and safety legislations cover legal activites but restrict the places in which they can be carried out.