View Full Version : Missing e mails
As well as the normal ntl e mail setup I have forwarding enabled to a Yahoo Mail account to provide a backup for the ntl mail boxes. In the last week I've been getting e mails in the Yahoo account that haven't appeared in my ntl mail boxes at all. They haven't appeared on ntl web mail either. I seem to be getting some e mails and not others with no discernible pattern.
I checked with ntl BB technical and they can find no trace of the missing e mails. The only suggestion is that the ntl servers may have treated the missing e mails as spam and deleted them. However the missing e mails were a mixture of private and commercial and certainly not spam.
I would appreciate any help/suggestions/comments on this problem. Thanks in advance.
mails and not others with no discernible pattern.
I checked with ntl BB technical and they can find no trace of the missing e mails. The only suggestion is that the ntl servers may have treated the missing e mails as spam and deleted them.
Did Tech Support suggest this to you?
Since when did ntl have spam filtering software on their mail servers? :rolleyes:
Since now Neil ....
Or very recently I should say
Since now Neil ....
Or very recently I should say
Is that a 100% confirmed fact that ntl now use spam software on the mail servers?
Can anyone else from ntl please confirm/deny this?
paulyoung666
06-01-2004, 11:53
Is that a 100% confirmed fact that ntl now use spam software on the mail servers?
Can anyone else from ntl please confirm/deny this?
well if they are then it aint working for me :(
They have ...
Whether they work or not would depend on how effective the blacklist is, and I know nothing about that, so ...
paulyoung666
06-01-2004, 12:13
They have ...
Whether they work or not would depend on how effective the blacklist is, and I know nothing about that, so ...
wonder why ntl aint shouted about it , it is something ppl have been asking for ages :shrug: , you would think ntl being the size of company it is they would have the latest blacklist updated regularly :tu:
wonder why ntl aint shouted about it , it is something ppl have been asking for ages :shrug: , you would think ntl being the size of company it is they would have the latest blacklist updated regularly :tu:
Since when have you known ntl to communicate anything to anyone effectively Paul? :rolleyes:
paulyoung666
06-01-2004, 12:21
Since when have you known ntl to communicate anything to anyone effectively Paul? :rolleyes:
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah good point neil , stupid me , i thought new year , new start , ho hum :spin: :rofl:
where have my posts gone?
where have my posts gone?
According to the stats that I can see (but normal members can't) you deleted them. :confused:
paulyoung666
06-01-2004, 12:32
According to the stats that I can see (but normal members can't) you deleted them. :confused:
wierder by the minute this one :spin:
has nthellworld.co.uk got a filter? lol
seriously tho, this thread looks silly with the bits missing :/
has nthellworld.co.uk got a filter? lol
seriously tho, this thread looks silly with the bits missing :/
All sorted now. :)
So i'm still a bit confused - do NTL now have a SPAM filter deleting e-mails addressed to me without my knowledge ?
paulyoung666
06-01-2004, 13:29
So i'm still a bit confused - do NTL now have a SPAM filter deleting e-mails addressed to me without my knowledge ?
we still dont know , but what happens if it deletes something that isnt spam :(
Enterian
06-01-2004, 13:36
Personally, I'd rather NTL passed ALL my emails and let me sort the spam. I have yet to find a spam filter that doesn't occasionally flag legitimate emails as spam.
Just to add insult to injury I haven't received notification by e mail of replies to my original posting on this forum. I have ticked 'Instant notification by e mail'!
However, an e mail hasn't appeared in Yahoo mail either so I'm more confused.
Stuartbe
06-01-2004, 14:25
So i'm still a bit confused - do NTL now have a SPAM filter deleting e-mails addressed to me without my knowledge ?
I realy hope NTL have not done this. I am 100% behind Pem on this one. NTL have no right intercepting mail. I have no objection in tem adding a x-spam header to the mail. People can then use outlook to filter the mail if they want !
Who the hell are NTL to decide what is and what is not spam.
BTW did you get that email I sent you about viagra Pem ?? :naughty:
Sociable
06-01-2004, 14:48
This is one case where an opt out rather than opt in makes sense as yes it is true some will want to be in total control and not have NTL providing a filter.
The larger picture, however, is that it now clear some form of direct action by the ISP's is the only way any meaningful reduction in spam will be possible.
The blacklisting of known sources of spam is, I suspect, the most likely candidate as that still provides a method for appeals to be made as and when this prevents legitamate mail getting through.
Sorry if this offends people but this is one case where the principle of the greater good should apply and IMHO NTL should follow the example of those ISP's already putting spam eradication high on the list of priorities.
threadbare
06-01-2004, 14:54
unless you recieve emails from spam merchants its unlikely ntl's spam filters have deleted your personal emails
Stuartbe
06-01-2004, 15:37
This is one case where an opt out rather than opt in makes sense as yes it is true some will want to be in total control and not have NTL providing a filter.
The larger picture, however, is that it now clear some form of direct action by the ISP's is the only way any meaningful reduction in spam will be possible.
The blacklisting of known sources of spam is, I suspect, the most likely candidate as that still provides a method for appeals to be made as and when this prevents legitamate mail getting through.
Sorry if this offends people but this is one case where the principle of the greater good should apply and IMHO NTL should follow the example of those ISP's already putting spam eradication high on the list of priorities.
I agree in a way. They need to force spam filtering but only by flaging the mail's as spam and not deleting them. I have tried many many spam filter programs over the years and I have not found one that does not "false alarm"
What hapens if an email is marked as spam and dumped and it is not spam. How is the user going to get the mail ??? How is the user going to get NTL to remove the sender from the spam list ???
I have no problems with the compulsary flaging of the mail - GREAT - but please dont lets get into a culture of deleting first and asking questions later.
Stuartbe
06-01-2004, 15:44
unless you recieve emails from spam merchants its unlikely ntl's spam filters have deleted your personal emails
Sorry m8 - its very likely.... Spam asasin for example will spam mark a mail that does not have a subject header, How many time have you sent or been sent an email without a subject ????
If NTL are intorducing Spam filters ... would it be regionally or globally, cos it ain't working for me either ..... or am I expecting too much :D
Sociable
06-01-2004, 15:49
Sorry stuartbe I disagree on this for a few reasons.
First is that simply flagging e-mails does nothing at all to reduce the traffic which is a far bigger problem than the anoyance for individual users important though that is.
Second if mail is refused the sender would be adivised his mail was rejected and why so appeals can be made.
But the main reason is that a clear message has to be sent to the spammers so they know there is no longer any point in sending spam as that at the end of the day is the desired effect of the filter.
SMHarman
06-01-2004, 15:50
I agree in a way. They need to force spam filtering but only by flaging the mail's as spam and not deleting them. I have tried many many spam filter programs over the years and I have not found one that does not "false alarm"
What hapens if an email is marked as spam and dumped and it is not spam. How is the user going to get the mail ??? How is the user going to get NTL to remove the sender from the spam list ???
I have no problems with the compulsary flaging of the mail - GREAT - but please dont lets get into a culture of deleting first and asking questions later.
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,1357955,00.asp
Brightmail's developers believe that a false-positive mistakeââ‚à ‚¬Ã¢â‚¬ÂÂsay, a note from a client treated as spamââ‚ ¬Ã¢â‚¬ÂÂcan be very costly. True to that mission, Brightmail Anti-Spam (BAS) yielded not a single false positive on our tests. It did let 11.1 percent of the messages we deemed as spam through to our in-box, but that number was not out of line with the others here (the range was a low of 7 percent to a high of 37.9 percent, as shown on the chart below).
http://www.brightmail.com
http://www.demon.net/helpdesk/announce/2003/da2003-12-10a.shtml
Demon are introducing spam deletion at the server, but you are able to opt out if you choose.
Enterian
06-01-2004, 15:55
unless you recieve emails from spam merchants its unlikely ntl's spam filters have deleted your personal emails
If you think that I suggest you get yourself a copy of Mailwasher and set it to check your email against the Spamcop database.
The number of false positives is scary :eek:
Stuartbe
06-01-2004, 15:58
Sorry stuartbe I disagree on this for a few reasons.
First is that simply flagging e-mails does nothing at all to reduce the traffic which is a far bigger problem than the anoyance for individual users important though that is.
Second if mail is refused the sender would be adivised his mail was rejected and why so appeals can be made.
But the main reason is that a clear message has to be sent to the spammers so they know there is no longer any point in sending spam as that at the end of the day is the desired effect of the filter.
The way to block the spammers is for ISP'S to sort out there security. An email with a spoofed ip or source address can be spoted instantly by any decent mail server, 90% of spamed mails have this information forged. If ISP'S stopped spoofed packets passing the BGWR on there network people would not be able to spoof the address. This would also stop dns, ddns and rddns atacks from hitting people as there packets would be killed at the gateway.
You need to atack the problem - not the symptom !!
Sociable
06-01-2004, 16:04
Precisely my point stuartbe :D
I'm not talking about NTL applying one of the domestic anti-spam programs but instituting a process that identifies the source of spam and applies a block.
Examples would be attempts to send the same mail to a dictionary list clearly designed to test for valid addresses and other such methods used by the spammers.
I'm no tech but simple logic tells me it must be possible to identify and eliminate some of the more obvious abuses of the system and start with those.
No more nor less than that.
Stuartbe
06-01-2004, 16:13
Precisely my point stuartbe :D
I'm not talking about NTL applying one of the domestic anti-spam programs but instituting a process that identifies the source of spam and applies a block.
Examples would be attempts to send the same mail to a dictionary list clearly designed to test for valid addresses and other such methods used by the spammers.
I'm no tech but simple logic tells me it must be possible to identify and eliminate some of the more obvious abuses of the system and start with those.
No more nor less than that.
I see what you are saying m8
The problem remains that there is no 100% efective method of detecting spam. Until we can do this we cant start to block. The risk of killing personal mail is too high.
Microsoft have a duty here to !! they should make sure that the mail clients are able to deal with junk mail. Reverse dns checking is just one method that is very efective.
If we are to rid the internet of spam (something I think we will never do as the internet is based on totaly floored technology) then everyone has to work together. How many users know how to check the source ip (spoofed or not) of an email ? How many users foolishly click on the unsubscribe link ?
We could argue until the cows come home (or the wife) but there is no out of the box solution.
Sociable
06-01-2004, 16:25
Fair point.
But saying that as we can't eliminate 100% means we shouldn't eradicate a lower percentage that is known to be safe is another matter.
Start with the clear abuse first and work down the list.
Yes even this could result in a few stray messages being caught by the system but only where people are routing mail through insecure or deliberately spam friendly servers. This in turn would lead to people stopping support for those servers and forcing them to clean up their act.
Curiously I can remember a time when the old cabletel email address was on a blacklist because it was using insecure mail servers. AFAIK it was this being blacklisted that concentrated the minds of the ISP to fix the problem.
Stuartbe
06-01-2004, 17:24
Fair point.
But saying that as we can't eliminate 100% means we shouldn't eradicate a lower percentage that is known to be safe is another matter.
Start with the clear abuse first and work down the list.
Yes even this could result in a few stray messages being caught by the system but only where people are routing mail through insecure or deliberately spam friendly servers. This in turn would lead to people stopping support for those servers and forcing them to clean up their act.
Curiously I can remember a time when the old cabletel email address was on a blacklist because it was using insecure mail servers. AFAIK it was this being blacklisted that concentrated the minds of the ISP to fix the problem.
O.K. m8
Lets put it to the poll and see the results !!!
I think that we will have to agree to disagree on this one :)
Poll - http://forum.nthellworld.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6015
SMHarman
06-01-2004, 17:45
Fair point.
But saying that as we can't eliminate 100% means we shouldn't eradicate a lower percentage that is known to be safe is another matter.
Start with the clear abuse first and work down the list.
Yes even this could result in a few stray messages being caught by the system but only where people are routing mail through insecure or deliberately spam friendly servers. This in turn would lead to people stopping support for those servers and forcing them to clean up their act.
Curiously I can remember a time when the old cabletel email address was on a blacklist because it was using insecure mail servers. AFAIK it was this being blacklisted that concentrated the minds of the ISP to fix the problem.
Brightmail operates several spam detection systems, but a key benefit is that they have set up a large number of dummy email addresses at many different ISPs (including Demon). Any email sent to these addresses is by definition unsolicited and unwanted. Brightmail then create filtering rules that will detect the same email being sent to other addresses. This scheme means that Brightmail will not block properly run mailing lists, legitimate mailshots to customers or indeed mass emails sent by your friends to invite you to a party. This is because these emails will never reach the dummy addresses and so no rules will be created for them. For more information see:
http://www.brightmail.com/accuracy.html
Stuartbe
06-01-2004, 17:50
Brightmail operates several spam detection systems, but a key benefit is that they have set up a large number of dummy email addresses at many different ISPs (including Demon). Any email sent to these addresses is by definition unsolicited and unwanted. Brightmail then create filtering rules that will detect the same email being sent to other addresses. This scheme means that Brightmail will not block properly run mailing lists, legitimate mailshots to customers or indeed mass emails sent by your friends to invite you to a party. This is because these emails will never reach the dummy addresses and so no rules will be created for them. For more information see:
http://www.brightmail.com/accuracy.html
You dont work for them do you ? :D
Seriosly though - Looks pretty good !! I think the price tag may be out of NTL'S bracket though.
:rofl: :rofl: I cant get the picture of two monkeys reading email on a screen out of my head :rofl: :rofl:
SMHarman
06-01-2004, 17:55
You dont work for them do you ? :D
Seriosly though - Looks pretty good !! I think the price tag may be out of NTL'S bracket though.
:rofl: :rofl: I cant get the picture of two monkeys reading email on a screen out of my head :rofl: :rofl:
No I don't, I use Demon for overpriced web hosting and pretty good shopping cart and credit card acceptance. I initially used them for dial up and still for backup ISDN access (free with shopsite) when NTL is pants. I also use theirs not NTLs POP servers (but NTLs SMTP servers).
The Spam issue is interesting as Demons POP servers have been through significant growing pains over recent months as they collapsed under the weight of spam. A big upgrade has solved this, but it looks like they want to capacity manage (and IMHO improve the end user experience) by implementing filtering.
Being as my mail box got 600 spam mails between 23/12 and 4/1 I will be able to report back on the results.
Sociable
06-01-2004, 17:58
Great post SMHarmon
A very good example of exactly the sort of thing I mean.
threadbare
06-01-2004, 20:46
Sorry m8 - its very likely.... Spam asasin for example will spam mark a mail that does not have a subject header, How many time have you sent or been sent an email without a subject ????
i believe ntl mail filters use an IP blacklist not subject headers
Stuartbe
06-01-2004, 21:19
i believe ntl mail filters use an IP blacklist not subject headers
So are you saying that an IP blacklist cant block mail that is genuine ???
I use ordb, reverse dns check, header filters and spam asasin and I have had mails from my bank blocked by ip blacklists. All it takes is for a spammer to spoof the ip of there mail server and they get blocked. O.K. it can be unblocked, but not before mails get zapped.
I use all the spam detection methods above but I still only mark the mail as spam and sent it to a diferent folder. I have had multiple emails that have ended up in the spam folder that were perfectly o.k.
I am not for a moment saying that NTL should do nothing. I am saying that you need to be 100% sure that a mail is spam before you block it, and then only with the consent of the customer. Emails are private to the user and can sometimes be personal to. Some emails are even treated with the same legality as postal letters if they have digital sigs.
I wonder how many people would rant and rave on this site if they had a personal mail blocked ?
threadbare
06-01-2004, 21:26
So are you saying that an IP blacklist cant block mail that is genuine ???
no i didn't say that at all. please see my previous post as to what i said.
edit: perhaps a tech can come on and explain exactly what ntl's mail filtering policy is before we get ourselves into a little frenzy
(we as in nthw not you in particular stuartbe)
threadbare
06-01-2004, 21:29
I have noticed a drop in the amount of spam i get since the filtering was introduced. which was in december i believe
Frankly I just want to get less Viagra spam,diet pills offers,job offers,cheap tobacco offers,mortgage and finance offers I'm not interested in.It's as bad as all them bluddy leaflets in the magazines that litter everywhere. :rolleyes:
At least the teenage girls sex with horses spam emails has stopped about 3 months ago which was a great improvement but I wonder WHY it stopped as I did nothing about it.I found those particularly annoying. :sick:
As for NTL spam filtering could they at least give it a go?If it doesn't work they could always think again surely?Something is going to have to be done soon before the whole system grinds to a halt. :shrug:
Incog. :wavey:
greencreeper
08-01-2004, 18:09
Second if mail is refused the sender would be adivised his mail was rejected and why so appeals can be made.
Not true for mailing lists. You'd would be taken off the list. You would complain and re-subscribe. You would be taken off the list. You would complain and re-subscribe. You would be... In today's world when the sender is often a machine you cannot expect the machine to sort out the problem OR make it's owner aware there is a problem.
The trouble with blacklists is that a lot of them are open to the (muppet) public to add "spammers" and the (muppet) public often adds legitimate senders.
There's also a problem when a company uses the same mail server/email address to send unsolicited emails (that some would see as spam) and legitimate emails to registered customers. Customers end up losing emails or receiving them marked as spam.
Many customers sign up to a site and don't tick the "I don't want a newsletter" box. When they get the newsletter they promptly run off to the nearest blacklist database and report the sender.
john
paulyoung666
08-01-2004, 18:12
from my point of view though ppl should have to opt in , not opt out :)
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