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was just watching the news and a ten month old baby was stabbed to death, when he and his mother were shopping .......the babies throat was apparently slit.....
:bigcry: couldn't find the link to the news article because my pc is playing up....
i think this is bluddy awful......see what our world has become.....its not safe to bring a child into the world anymore :bigcry:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/3211018.stm
Heard on the news, what a sh*tty world we live in :(
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/3211018.stm link for ya Bex :(
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i agree russ...the news said that the man who did it might have been known by the mother :cry:
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Indeed :afire:
The problem is that in my line of work this is the sort of thing that we hear about all too often. Not just by strangers either. A lot of the time it is the family that kill the baby/child.
IMO the ones that end up killed are the lucky ones as they are not being abused anymore. I had a 7 year old girl yesterday who said that she had been raped/abused by her father while her little sister was forced to watch.
What ever possesses people to do this I will never understand. I only end up having to pick up the after effects after social services etc have missed it.
You would not believe how many children attemp/commit suicide in my area everyday. It is a terrible thing for anyone to think about never mind actually understand
:bigcry: the world is a horrible place, i dont think some people should be allowed to have kids :mad:
It's true but even people who don't have kids go through my department. You don't have to have kids to abuse them :(
*begin mini rant*
String em up by their bits...
rant over :(
It's not just the men either :(
Nope, hence bits ;) No discrimination here.
thats very true page.........unfortunately we live in a world, where you have to be extremely careful who you live your children with, even other members of your family arent always trustworthy
virtual-angel
22-10-2003, 11:36
Apparantly it was the father who did it, who was due to be deported back to bangladesh today.
Its unfortunate in this "civilised" age we have to be careful who we leave anyone with, young or old.
Can't even go to the shops any more or go out late at night.
Kids are'nt safe, elderly aren't safe. What is this world coming to?
no rant about women not being safe today babes? ;)
i thought it might be the father...whoever said that :(
SMHarman
22-10-2003, 11:52
Interesting this comes at the same time fathers for justice are upping their campaign.
They can't be happy even though it is the one off actions of a single father.
I work in Child Protection Ramrod.
I get all sorts of nasty things to deal with every day.
Not an easy job to do and can be very emotional at times.
respect to you page, i couldn't do it, i'd get too emotionally involved
I come home every night emotionally exhausted. It really is hard but when you do make a difference it is really worth it.
You have my respect too, difficult job. Must be hard not to take it home with you :(
I work in Child Protection Ramrod.
I get all sorts of nasty things to deal with every day.
Not an easy job to do and can be very emotional at times.God what an awfull job that must be at times. You must be really strong to do it.
It's very hard at times but you have to think that even if it turns out that you cannot do anything or it is too late then at least you have tried and shown that there is someone who cares to the child.
and people say capital punishment has no place in todays society. I say bring it back now, I will do the job for free.
if not, stop the planet I'm getting off, this world sucks and I don't want to live here anymore.
Shouldn't this thread be merged with Kronas' "BNP Loses Seats" thread ? ;)
and people say capital punishment has no place in todays society. I say bring it back now, I will do the job for free.
if not, stop the planet I'm getting off, this world sucks and I don't want to live here anymore.
yeah i know what you mean, but not everything in the world is bad, there are some good things and good people.......but unforuntately we live in a fallen world, so the badness sometimes out weighs the goodness
MadGamer
22-10-2003, 19:16
Its just awful to see that happen to an innocent baby. What is the world coming to?
it sickened me when i heard about this i hope he gets locked up or severely punished for this :2up:
Shouldn't this thread be merged with Kronas' "BNP Loses Seats" thread ? ;)
Why?
Incog.
The poor baby's father has been charged with his murder. This is just so, so, sad. :(
SMHarman
23-10-2003, 15:35
The poor baby's father has been charged with his murder. This is just so, so, sad. :(
Why?
The father walked into the bakers, walked behind the counter grabbed a knife and then attacked both of them. What should it be GBH?
The mum on the other hand suffered from acute epilepsy and thought that she would childless, sadly after 10 months she is again.
Why?
The father walked into the bakers, walked behind the counter grabbed a knife and then attacked both of them. What should it be GBH?
The mum on the other hand suffered from acute epilepsy and thought that she would childless, sadly after 10 months she is again.
no no no ... let me rephrase
The father of the poor baby has been charged with murder. This is such a sad state of affairs, how could a man do such a thing to his son?
Don't worry, I'm not suggesting the dad should get away with anything ...
SMHarman
23-10-2003, 15:47
no no no ... let me rephrase
The father of the poor baby has been charged with murder. This is such a sad state of affairs, how could a man do such a thing to his son?
Don't worry, I'm not suggesting the dad should get away with anything ...
Whats even more wonderful is that instead of deporting Her Majesty will get to look after him at the taxpayers expense for life.
Whats that cost £100k a year?
Whats even more wonderful is that instead of deporting Her Majesty will get to look after him at the taxpayers expense for life.
Whats that cost £100k a year?
It could be higher than that ...
If this bloke is not a British national, he could be deported at the end of his sentence. The news reports won't give any details on this now tho', as what can be reported is heavily restricted in advance of a trial.
If this bloke is not a British national, he could be deported at the end of his sentence. The news reports won't give any details on this now tho', as what can be reported is heavily restricted in advance of a trial.
In the real world yes but not in Britian. He'll be able to stay..
:bigcry: i just don't know how any parent could kill or harm their own child in anyway......it's incomprehensable...
where ever he is put away the key should be thrown away......... it must be awful to grieve for the lose of a child but to know that the man who helped u create that child has taken it's life must be significantly worse
btw totally off topic but 500th post woohoo
Pity you don't have the death penalty.
Pity you don't have the death penalty.
There's no hope of restitution for the man if we kill him though, is there?
There's no hope of restitution for the man if we kill him though, is there?
i know killing the attacker wont help the loss of someone but why should he live he will get out on good behavior most proberbly at some time end the scoundrels life :2up:
i know killing the attacker wont help the loss of someone but why should he live he will get out on good behavior most proberbly at some time end the scoundrels life :2up:
see this is something i never understood.....people want to punish someone for taking someones life, by doing exactly the same thing to them....isn't that paradoxical? :spin:
see this is something i never understood.....people want to punish someone for taking someones life, by doing exactly the same thing to them....isn't that paradoxical? :spin:
no its called being harsh but fair :)
no its called being harsh but fair :)
but it's not though.....u cant punish someone for doing something and then doing the exact same thing back to them....
another example, ive always been bemused by parents who tell their kids off for smacking them/other kids...and they punish them by smacking them.......if smacking, or indeed killing someone is wrong then shouldnt u prove it some other way, rather than saying "thats wrong and to punish you im going to do the same thing to you?"
another example, ive always been bemused who tell their kids off for smacking them/other kids...and they punish them by smacking them.......if smacking, or indeed killing someone is wrong then shouldnt u prove it some other way, rather than saying "thats wrong and to punish you im going to do the same thing to you?"
i see nothing wrong with it.......
your telling me your going to throw someone in jail let them out in 20-30 years time for good behavior and forget about someone ending a human life why should that person be allowed to get away scot free it would be more affective then these 'soft' laws we currently have
i see nothing wrong with it.......
your telling me your going to throw someone in jail let them out in 20-30 years time for good behavior and forget about someone ending a human life why should that person be allowed to get away scot free it would be more affective then these 'soft' laws we currently have
you misunderstand me, i am not saying that our current system is any good, but what i am saying is that, under no circumstances, can i see taking a human life to be acceptable......
we need to have a new system in which the crims maybe have to work and pay back the money society ends up paying for them......i dont know, but death penalty is a :nono:
but what i am saying is that, under no circumstances, can i see taking a human life to be acceptable......
well i believe diffarently if you go around stabbing/killing people you deserve to be eradicated from the human race if you are incharge of your faculties
well i believe diffarently if you go around stabbing/killing people you deserve to be eradicated from the human race if you are incharge of your faculties
i think that we are going to have to agree to disagree here.....
i dont condone what the bloke did, i think he is a dispicable human being.......i will say no more on the matter of the punishment he should get
There's no hope of restitution for the man if we kill him though, is there?
And if you keep him alive? How will that fix it? Neither way fixes anything, but if you kill him justice is served.
see this is something i never understood.....people want to punish someone for taking someones life, by doing exactly the same thing to them....isn't that paradoxical?
No. One is murder, and the other is simply killing. There is a difference between the two.
but it's not though.....u cant punish someone for doing something and then doing the exact same thing back to them....
You call executing a murder the same as stabbing a baby? Shame on you. :/
another example, ive always been bemused by parents who tell their kids off for smacking them/other kids...and they punish them by smacking them.......if smacking, or indeed killing someone is wrong then shouldnt u prove it some other way, rather than saying "thats wrong and to punish you im going to do the same thing to you?"
Maybe it was just me, but I had the intelligence to distinguish the one as punishment (lawful) and the other as an agressive act which is uncalled far (illegal). But maybe it is just me and the rest of civilization are cows that can't distinguish between the two.
Pity you don't have the death penalty.It's stuff like this that makes me agree with you.
There's no hope of restitution for the man if we kill him though, is there?I would pull the trigger myself.
see this is something i never understood.....people want to punish someone for taking someones life, by doing exactly the same thing to them....isn't that paradoxical? :spin:No, it's Biblical.
There's no hope of restitution for the man if we kill him though, is there?
And if you keep him alive? How will that fix it? Neither way fixes anything, but if you kill him justice is served.
see this is something i never understood.....people want to punish someone for taking someones life, by doing exactly the same thing to them....isn't that paradoxical?
No. One is murder, and the other is simply killing. There is a difference between the two.
but it's not though.....u cant punish someone for doing something and then doing the exact same thing back to them....
You call executing a murder the same as stabbing a baby? Shame on you. :/
another example, ive always been bemused by parents who tell their kids off for smacking them/other kids...and they punish them by smacking them.......if smacking, or indeed killing someone is wrong then shouldnt u prove it some other way, rather than saying "thats wrong and to punish you im going to do the same thing to you?"
Maybe it was just me, but I had the intelligence to distinguish the one as punishment (lawful) and the other as an agressive act which is uncalled far (illegal). But maybe it is just me and the rest of civilization are cows that can't distinguish between the two.
first off mate i was approaching it from a logical/philosophical point of view and not an emotional one
firstly///why is there a diff between murder and killing? the outcome is still the same reagrdless of the means........and i dont think it is our right to take a life
secondly....the smacking was an analogy i was using intellect to prove my point
thirdly....taking a life is taking a life end of...
you may not agree with me but i found ur post to be aggressive
No, it's Biblical.
i'm not getting into a bit biblical debate with you
i'm not getting into a bit biblical debate with youlol, I was just pointing out that the earliest example of law we have is an eye for an eye....etc
....thats all:)
I am generally against the death penalty but when you have as henious a crime as this and an open and shut case (as this one is presumably) then I say shoot the bast*rd.
....sorry if that offends anyone
btw....I feel the same way about predatory paedophiles as well.
lol, I was just pointing out that the earliest example of law we have is an eye for an eye....etc
....thats all:)
yeha but if you are going to use the biblical stance........jesus also says to forgive.........one of the kings was forgiven for being a murderer.......
and the bible also teaches that it isnt for us to judge it is for God to judge
yeha but if you are going to use the biblical stance........jesus also says to forgive.........one of the kings was forgiven for being a murderer.......
and the bible also teaches that it isnt for us to judge it is for God to judgeNo, no, no....I am not religious at all. I was merely taking it back to first (legal) principles.
....and was that king guilty of infanticide?
No, no, no....I am not religious at all. I was merely taking it back to first (legal) principles.
....and was that king guilty of infanticide?
are u saying some kind of murder is more morally unacceptable than others? :erm:
are u saying some kind of murder is more morally unacceptable than others? :erm:Yes. killing a defenceless baby (I don't know if it's worse if it's your own) is worse than , lets say.... killing a man in the street after an argument.
There are some things that you just do not do......and if you have done such a thing then you forfeit your right to be treated as a human being. (just my opinion of course)
[But maybe it is just me and the rest of civilization are cows that can't distinguish between the two.
Wanna explain that Jerrek as it is posted in response to a female member and can be taken as a highly offensive remark :nono:
Sure you did'nt mean it that way but the English language is a funny thing at times.
Wanna explain that Jerrek as it is posted in response to a female member and can be taken as a highly offensive remark :nono:
Sure you did'nt mean it that way but the English language is a funny thing at times.I think we can translate 'cows' as 'sheep' maby?
No, it's Biblical.
Like bex, I don't want to get into a big Bible debate, but seeing as we're addressing the issue ...
I could have pushed the 'quote' button on any number of posts in this thread so I'm not victimising anyone by jumping in at this point in particular. ;)
Sometimes with moral issues in this forum I try to demonstrate where I think there is a general principle in favour of a certain course of action, which agrees with but does not rely on my faith. I'm not going to do that here.
Christianity is absolutely explicit on this point: you do not kill people. In the old testament a distinction was drawn between murder (thou shalt not) and killing, which was acceptable, if sanctioned by God under certain circumstances. Such circumstances were wars, in which God used the Israelites to judge other nations, and in legal matters in which certain crimes carried the ultimate penalty. But in the New Testament, Jesus ushers in a new way: forgiveness. Within that, chastisement, and consideration for the safety of others, does IMO allow for jail and community punishment of offenders, but it does not allow for vengeance against the offender and that is what the death penalty is.
As a Christian, I want everyone to know the forgiveness I have found and the relationship I have with Jesus. Again, the Bible is clear on this point: Man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgement. Whatever this man has done, he is no more deserving than any other human being of a place in God's presence when he dies. I would rather he has time in this life to consider what he has done and change his ways, and become a new person. He probably ought to spend his entire life behind bars - we need to send a message that this behaviour is not acceptable - but to kill him is to give in to hopelessness.
well said towny :D i agree with you, just wasn't incredibly articulate in saying the same thing
:tu: to towny. Said my thoughts there too :)
And because I'm so easily led and go along with the current trends, I'll agree with him too ;) :D
I wonder how strong your convictions/beliefs towards forgiveness would be if this awful event happened to your own child.
I know that if it happened to my daughter,I would be the one to go to jail for murder,as the guy who attacked my daughter would't live long enough to even get arrested.
Intellectualy, I agree with you Towny, but on another more primitive wavelength I feel very strongly that anyone who deliberately kills a child in such a manner deserves death. (my wife says they deserve a painful death).
It is so sickening that a human being can Kill its own creation in cold blood. What ever the reason behind the killing I can not see anyone giving the guy forgiveness. In the news recently there has been a couple of simular killings but for religous reasons. As far as Im aware this particular one was NOT religion related. In many ways I am old fashion when it comes to moralls and reason. In this case I beleive an eye for an eye!
It is totally un-forgivable!
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The Father! :2up: :2up: :2up: :2up:
To everyone that proclaim this "forgiveness" on a government level, should we empty all the prisons and jails and just "forgive?" Why is it permissible to not forgive and sentence someone to jail, but when it comes to capital punishment we should just forgive instead?
Because prisons are also there to rehabilitate - something you can't quite do to someone after they've been wired up to 20,000 volts.
You didn't answer all my questions. Why not just forgive?
We do. But the punishment of prison/rehabilitation encourages a degree of normality and control within certain communities.
No we don't. We keep a permanent criminal record. And you still didn't quite answer the question. What do you mean by degree of normality?
In Matthews 5:17-19, Jesus Himself declared that He came into the world to fulfill the law, not to destroy or change it.
In Matthews 15:3-9 and Mark 7:8-13, He endorsed the capital punishment laws instituted by Moses and criticized Israel's leaders for subverting them.
The apostle Paul, wrongly accused of committing a crime punishable by death, agreed that he should be executed if he had indeed committed a capital crime (Acts 25). He was ultimately exonerated and allowed to live, but only because he was innocent of the charge. All of this occurred after Jesus' ascension, so the Biblical death penalty was obviously still in effect.
As Paul wrote, governments have the moral authority and obligation to execute capital criminals (Romans 13:1-4).
And you still didn't quite answer the question
Actually I did but I suspect you just didn't get the answer you were looking for.
What do you mean by degree of normality?
To stop arnachy from taking over.
In Matthews 5:17-19, Jesus Himself declared that He came into the world to fulfill the law, not to destroy or change it.
You've taken that COMPLETELY out of context. "The Law" spoken of in the Bible is God's instructions, not the law of the land.
As Paul wrote, governments have the moral authority and obligation to execute capital criminals
That is not something I agree with.
hold on a moment this is NOT about religion its about the laws of this country execution is the only way that there will be any kind of deterrent from doing these awful crimes
Because prisons are also there to rehabilitate - something you can't quite do to someone after they've been wired up to 20,000 volts.But prison has been shown not to rehabilitate, as far as I Know.
You've taken that COMPLETELY out of context. "The Law" spoken of in the Bible is God's instructions, not the law of the land.
.erm, I am probably getting this wrong but surely God's instructions supercede the law of the land...?:confused:
homealone
25-10-2003, 00:41
But prison has been shown not to rehabilitate, as far as I Know.
greatest respect Ramrod, but we ain't talking rehabilitation, we are talking about life means life - I don't agree with execution, but someone who kills their offspring deserves to die knowing society abhors their actions - a death in a prison cell after 20 years of memories might be worse than being executed?
don't forget--after something as despicable as this--he may not last 20 years in jail.
I am willing to take bets on how long he will survive---I say 2 years then the guards will "forget" to watch him--and he will have an "accident"
erm, I am probably getting this wrong but surely God's instructions supercede the law of the land...?:confused:
Yes but I was referring to it to highlight Jerrek's misuse of that passage.
I wonder how strong your convictions/beliefs towards forgiveness would be if this awful event happened to your own child.
I know that if it happened to my daughter,I would be the one to go to jail for murder,as the guy who attacked my daughter would't live long enough to even get arrested.
While I've never suffered the loss of a child for any reason, my family has had its fair share of tragedy requiring forgiveness over some pretty extreme stuff. (something I'm not about to share in open forum, hope you understand).
You are right, to say something is far easier than to live it. The Christian message is that you cannot live it, to God's standard, without his help. I'm happy to say that he always has helped me. Forgiving others is very hard and sometimes painful, but in God's grace I have done it.
hold on a moment this is NOT about religion its about the laws of this country execution is the only way that there will be any kind of deterrent from doing these awful crimes
Kronas, whenever you talk about the laws of this country, you talk about religion. Whether you like it or not, the laws of this country are founded on the Bible. And whether you like it or not, the thing that motivates some members of this forum and guides their outlook on life is 'religion'. My faith and myself are tied together (willingly, I'm not brainwashed). You can't expect us to separate the two just because you happen to disagree with it.
In Matthews 5:17-19, Jesus Himself declared that He came into the world to fulfill the law, not to destroy or change it.
In Matthews 15:3-9 and Mark 7:8-13, He endorsed the capital punishment laws instituted by Moses and criticized Israel's leaders for subverting them.
The apostle Paul, wrongly accused of committing a crime punishable by death, agreed that he should be executed if he had indeed committed a capital crime (Acts 25). He was ultimately exonerated and allowed to live, but only because he was innocent of the charge. All of this occurred after Jesus' ascension, so the Biblical death penalty was obviously still in effect.
As Paul wrote, governments have the moral authority and obligation to execute capital criminals (Romans 13:1-4).
A wise Bible teacher once said, 'A text without a context is a pretext for a proof-text'. Jerrek, this is exactly what you are doing with your 'proof-texts' for capital punishment. They are all out of context and, if the same logic were applied to certain other things Jesus and Paul said, we would be able to advocate a whole lot of other things our society considers we are better off without: let's take slavery as an example.
'Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything' (Colossians 3:22)
Yet, it was Christians who campaigned hardest for the abolition of slavery and John Newton, a notorious slave trader in his day, felt moved after his conversion to Christianity to write: 'Amazing grace! How sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me.' Needless to say, he stopped running slave ships.
In Matthew 5 Jesus does indeed say he fulfils, rather than replacing the law. And guess what that process of fulfilment ultimately led to? Yup, he sufffered capital punishment for a crime he did not commit. His death was as physical as it was spiritual. Jesus did these things so that no one else need suffer them.
As for Jesus' apparent rubber-stamp for the death penalty, his point was to address the hypocrisy of the Jewish elders, not to deliver a homily in favour of capital punishment. If you read the passages from Mark and Matthew (both of them relate to the same single incident) in context and not as part of a hunt for verses to back up a preconceived idea, you can't possibly read them as endorsing the death penalty.
When Paul in Acts 25 agrees he ought to be put to death if found guilty of the accusations against him, it is because that is the law in the country in which he is, and as you quoted yourself, Paul taught in Romans 13 that we are to have due respect for authority. He reminded us that all authority comes from God and that Governments are within their right to 'wield a sword' over our heads. But again, the point of Paul's argument here is to see that we obey the law and don't use Christian 'freedom' as an excuse for anarchy. Nowhere in the New Testament is capital punishment explicity advocated or warned against. This is because governments run by and large by non-believers are not expected to conform to the 'rules of the kingdom of God'. This does not mean that Christians cannot campaign against execution. As I said in an earlier post, an executed man has no hope of responding to the Good News once he's dead.
[/preach]
Sorry folks, I'll try not to make a habit of this... :)
And Towny gets shy when I consider him to be my spiritual superior..... :)
greatest respect Ramrod, but we ain't talking rehabilitation, we are talking about life means life - I don't agree with execution, but someone who kills their offspring deserves to die knowing society abhors their actions - a death in a prison cell after 20 years of memories might be worse than being executed?Yes, I am rather undecided between shooting rhe murdering bas*ard myself or locking him away for the rest of his life and throwing away the key. Maby It's one for the victims family to decide?
towny you are a very wise man :D
[/preach]
Sorry folks, I'll try not to make a habit of this... :)Keep going m8, it's all interesting stuff. You shouldn't be backward about coming forward about your faith or knowledge.
:blush:
stop it you lot! :)
Just read this thread - It makes me sick that someone can do this to a child and not because I have a 11 week old son. I'm sorry but IMO I would string the person up who did this in a town centre somewhere with a big sign saying what he/she did - Let see how long they last ... either that or tattoo their forehead before sending them to prison, either way I doubt they'd be doing it again [/Rant]
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