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BenMcr
30-03-2012, 14:16
http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/Fibre-optic-broadband-cable/Traffic-Management-Changes-April-2nd/td-p/1119141

As we begin migrating you to your new faster broadband speeds, we're making some changes to our subscriber traffic management (STM) policies to help maintain the quality of broadband service you've come to expect.

So we’re reducing the downstream speed reduction on 30Mb and above from 75% to 50% and introducing STM on 50Mb and 100Mb. We'll be publishing the full information on this on Monday at http://www.virginmedia.com/traffic/

In addition as part of the speed doubling programme, where you'll receive faster speeds and with the significant additional investment we're making to our network, we'll be trialling a variety of different approaches to traffic management over the coming months to make the system more intelligent and flexible, while ensuring the optimal quality of service. We'll publish more information on this as soon as it's available.

lordofangels
30-03-2012, 14:23
So when the 200Mb comes out, that will be free from STM, giving us an incentive to move over to it.
Quite clever if i'm right. Saying that, that's not that often mind ;)

Wild Oscar
30-03-2012, 14:27
I thought the 50Mb service has always had some sort of traffic management on it , or am I confusing that with something else?

I sure I got some sort of warning letter just after I subscribed to it ... ?

Chrysalis
30-03-2012, 17:36
seems people still get frequently confused on this.

VM run STM and protocol shaping, 2 types of traffic management.

The latter (protocol) is on all tiers during peak hours.
The former (STM) was on up/down on all tiers below 50mbit and on UP on 50meg.

STM affects all traffic and isnt protocol sensitive.

This announcement seems to squash the rumoured change which would have been to scrap protocol shaping and replace it with some sort of intelligent STM (comcast style).

BenMcr
30-03-2012, 17:38
This announcement seems to squash the rumoured change which would have been to scrap protocol shaping and replace it with some sort of intelligent STM (comcast style).Thisn't the only change:


we'll be trialling a variety of different approaches to traffic management over the coming months to make the system more intelligent and flexible, while ensuring the optimal quality of service. We'll publish more information on this as soon as it's available

Chrysalis
30-03-2012, 18:10
I read that also, but it would be a very strange move to do this change and then another change (more major) soon after. Although knowing VM.....

Risco
30-03-2012, 18:17
As long as the limits are reasonable, I am fine with it, so long as it means I can max out my connection more often at peak times and not suffer poor pings.

broadbandking
30-03-2012, 18:39
So they are introducing STM on 50Mb and 100Mb what about the 120Mb, so that means once my speed has been increased from 50Mb to 100Mb that if I get STM'd I will still get 50Mb sounds good to me.

keepitretro
30-03-2012, 20:43
OK just rang up and they said 100/120 mb will be 250gig before STM kicks in and then a 50% reduction in speed, and STM times will run from 10AM till 3PM, but he didn't know about the protocol shaping? And the upload will be 120gig before STM kicks in.....

Was going to leave but the changes seem fair enough to me, plus infinity has been put back 3 months in my area!!!!

gouldy
30-03-2012, 20:48
So they are introducing STM on 50Mb and 100Mb what about the 120Mb, so that means once my speed has been increased from 50Mb to 100Mb that if I get STM'd I will still get 50Mb sounds good to me.

well you must be easily pleased then, cause it sounds proper (Mod Edit, please do not try to avoid the swear filter) to me
STM on 100mb, people will leave in there droves if there FTTC enabled

---------- Post added at 19:48 ---------- Previous post was at 19:47 ----------

250gig :D if you believe that, you'll believe anything

keepitretro
30-03-2012, 20:52
Can't see how its possible to do 250 gig in 5 hours anyway and only did just under 200gig last month!

Skie
30-03-2012, 20:58
Last week I did 30 gig in slightly over an hour on 50meg. OS Maps are kinda huge :)

Maggy
30-03-2012, 21:02
Please folks this is a family friendly site so do not try to evade the swear filter.Those that continue to do so will incur infractions.

hjf288
30-03-2012, 21:08
Might be time to get in contact with BT Infinity...

keepitretro
30-03-2012, 21:18
I might just celebrate by extending my Astraweb subscription by a month!!!!!

gouldy
30-03-2012, 21:19
Might be time to get in contact with BT Infinity...


i cant get it yet, but tbh if i could get the 80/20 that will be rolled out soon, this new stm on 100mb might be enough to push me over to bt tbh, unless the stm is very high, say 40gb minimum

but i wouldn't be surprised it being 15-20gb tops

nothing short of a disgrace paying top, top dollar and having it restricted, going to 100mb and not worrying about stm was my main reason upgrading (and having the 10mb upload) :td:

if im gonna have to start watching what im downloading, i will probably drop down to 30/3 and download in the night like i did before

Chrysalis
30-03-2012, 21:47
OK just rang up and they said 100/120 mb will be 250gig before STM kicks in and then a 50% reduction in speed, and STM times will run from 10AM till 3PM, but he didn't know about the protocol shaping? And the upload will be 120gig before STM kicks in.....

Was going to leave but the changes seem fair enough to me, plus infinity has been put back 3 months in my area!!!!

250gig per day? that sounds very high actually, how long would it take to download 250gig with 100mbit speeds?

did he say upload STM limit?

keepitretro
30-03-2012, 21:48
120gb between 10am and 3pm.

Chrysalis
30-03-2012, 21:54
even thats very high.

they gone from one extreme to the other.

with limits that high they may as well keep it STM free and avoid the bad PR.

ok so a 100mbit line can do 32tb a month which I calculated at a per hour rate of 44gig an hour.

for an unlimited service of course there really shouldnt be any of these games going on but knowing how hard VM are pushing their capacity then for this to be effective I would expect it to allow 2 hours max of full speed constant usage. which would be about 90gig of usage. and on upload about an hour of usage as thats much more congested so maybe about 4.5gig usage on upload STM for top tier. In short with these limits I dont know why they bothering.

kwikbreaks
30-03-2012, 23:00
Nor me. I doubt the numbers are correct.

philipp
31-03-2012, 00:21
If those numbers are correct, I bet its for a 28/monthly period. We shall soon see. If its correct, based on 28-day figure, it be a 170 gig reduction between those times.

I have a feeling its some confusion over the figures, however as isnt 250 gig a month figure the magical decremential use figure in peak times?

watzizname
31-03-2012, 01:54
Yeah, I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's actually per month..

knack
31-03-2012, 05:42
Removing unlimited downloads would be an extreme change which I think is very unlikely.

I think (and hope) the person that keepitretro spoke to just didn't know what they were talking about.

keepitretro
31-03-2012, 06:03
They sounded like they knew what they were talking about! For a change.

General Maximus
31-03-2012, 07:57
I am not too bothered about the usage limits but if it is going to be between 1000 and 1500 it is a flipping joke and shows the network isnt up to scratch and they shouldnt be doing the speed increases. I can understand 1600-2100 for peak time in the evenings but if you are going to implement stm all day (when most people are at work) and only be un-stm'd at night, that means the network cant handle the speed at all unless everyone is asleep and there are a hand full of people using it in the country.

DaMac
31-03-2012, 08:48
I'm on 50 meg, and i've recently noticed my connection being capped at 15 meg at peak times, it must be a recent thing because i've never noticed it before, have Virgin changed their policy without letting me know?

broadbandking
31-03-2012, 09:30
i cant get it yet, but tbh if i could get the 80/20 that will be rolled out soon, this new stm on 100mb might be enough to push me over to bt tbh, unless the stm is very high, say 40gb minimum

but i wouldn't be surprised it being 15-20gb tops

nothing short of a disgrace paying top, top dollar and having it restricted, going to 100mb and not worrying about stm was my main reason upgrading (and having the 10mb upload) :td:

if im gonna have to start watching what im downloading, i will probably drop down to 30/3 and download in the night like i did before

The price of 100Mb is hardly top dollar take a look at leased lines now that top dollar, VM run a contented service so the bandwidth will be shared downloading anything I think 50Mb is more than enough and you seriously can't download that much everynight even streaming HD all night you wouldn't get STM'd as I am guessing the limits won't be that low.

carlwaring
31-03-2012, 10:28
Removing unlimited downloads would be an extreme change which I think is very unlikely.
Who said they're "removing unlimited downloads"? :confused:

All tiers have always had un-limited downloads, just not unlimited speed; and it looks like this is to continue.

data0002
31-03-2012, 13:37
Just a quick question if they are removing the 50meg unlimited downloads and sort of capping haven't they got to give us 28 days notice as it will be a change of our t&c's

knack
31-03-2012, 17:42
Who said they're "removing unlimited downloads"? :confused:

All tiers have always had un-limited downloads, just not unlimited speed; and it looks like this is to continue.

Hmm now I'm confused - I thought that's what the posts above mine were implying. Perhaps I'm wrong:

If those numbers are correct, I bet its for a 28/monthly period. We shall soon see. If its correct, based on 28-day figure, it be a 170 gig reduction between those times.

I have a feeling its some confusion over the figures, however as isnt 250 gig a month figure the magical decremential use figure in peak times?

Yeah, I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's actually per month..

philipp
31-03-2012, 17:58
You where wrong with mine one. I added the stm figures of 30mbit between the 2 times and added them.

Instead of a daily trigger it might be a monthly one where you go above that you be stmed between peak times for that month.

the 250 gig figure is what they could contact you if you go above this (depending on the utilisation in your area) for decremential use.

knack
31-03-2012, 18:05
You where wrong with mine one. I added the stm figures of 30mbit between the 2 times and added them.

Instead of a daily trigger it might be a monthly one where you go above that you be stmed between peak times for that month.

the 250 gig figure is what they could contact you if you go above this (depending on the utilisation in your area) for decremential use.

Ah that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

philipp
31-03-2012, 18:08
Ah that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

no problem. various adsl suppliers like enta, plusnet have a fixed limit during peak and then unlimited off-peak but they stm is much more restrictive (snails pace) than vm.

General Maximus
31-03-2012, 18:27
i dont mind a 250gb monthly limit as long as any stm which is applied isnt 24hrs so I can still get full speed during the night.

philipp
31-03-2012, 18:36
Neither do I. (Even less than that tbh) But saying that you expect to have a bandwidth monitor in myvirginmedia.com so I think they might have just changed the limits (maybe less than there are now since they have increased the percentage of stm'ed figure.

We will all find out on Monday what they are do.

General Maximus
31-03-2012, 18:41
stm is a pain in the ass. I wish they would just give us the option to pay the un-discounted price of £35 and keep things as they are.

broadbandking
01-04-2012, 11:36
stm is a pain in the ass. I wish they would just give us the option to pay the un-discounted price of £35 and keep things as they are.

Never gonna happen.

General Maximus
01-04-2012, 14:40
Never gonna happen.

Why not? I am not asking for anything new, i just want to keep what i have already got

Chrysalis
01-04-2012, 15:56
I dont think you get more than that out of any VM staff here, they dont seem to want to say anything outside of offical announcements.

Most likely reason is VM realised they couldnt handle un STM'd 100mbit and had a choice of STMing it or increasing prices to make it viable to pay for upgrades, the latter I suspect needed a price much higher than £35 a month.

Another possible reason is they felt takeup was too low which looked bad on shareholder reports so dropped the price to get higher takeup and in that instance they prefer to sell a more crippled product with the same headline speed (in fact will be higher headline speed) but with higher takeup due to the lower price. Government pushing may also have had an affect on this as ministers want more people on higher speeds.

Sirius
01-04-2012, 15:57
I dont think you get more than that out of any VM staff here, they dont seem to want to say anything outside of offical announcements.
.

And your reason for that unwarranted little dig, I take it you received some minor form of pleasure from it.


If you expect us to release company confidential information at your beckon call let me tell you its NOT going to happen.

Chrysalis
01-04-2012, 16:40
no pleasure.

just you been paranoid.

Sirius
01-04-2012, 16:48
no pleasure.



Excellent i am glad

Must go and take my medicine for paranoia, Some 15 year old Glenfiddich should do it.

kwikbreaks
01-04-2012, 17:13
I dont think you get more than that out of any VM staff here, they dont seem to want to say anything outside of offical announcements.

---------- Post added at 16:13 ---------- Previous post was at 16:13 ----------

If you expect us to release company confidential information at your beckon call let me tell you its NOT going to happen.

Nice to see Sirius agreeing with somebody....

Gavin78
01-04-2012, 17:50
astraweb are doing a deal at the moment 1000gig for £30

carlwaring
01-04-2012, 17:56
I dont think you get more than that out of any VM staff here, they dont seem to want to say anything outside of offical announcements.
Given that they would probably lose their job if they did, I am quite happy for them not to.

Most likely....... I suspect....
Another possible reason is...
So, just just mindless speculation from you then with no basis other than something against VM by the sound of it.

General Maximus
01-04-2012, 18:26
Most likely reason is VM realised they couldnt handle un STM'd 100mbit and had a choice of STMing it or increasing prices to make it viable to pay for upgrades, the latter I suspect needed a price much higher than £35 a month

if that is the case then I would like to see them do some form of bolt-on like for mobile phones where you can pay an extra £5 for another 50gb before you get stm'd or something.

jagsman
01-04-2012, 19:18
No matter what they do, they have to make sure it works correctly. I am on the 10mb, and at this precise moment I have shot well past their download limits. I have downloaded over 9gb since 9am, and my speeds are unaffected. Considering the download limits are 3gb between 9am and 3pm, and 1.5gb between 4pm and 9pm, at this moment I should be capped to 25% of my normal speed. The problem I have with Virgins STM, is that at precisely 9pm, my speeds will be capped. They dont get capped when I breach the 3gb or 1.5gb. All this downloading has been done using torrents, so the protocol shaping doesnt work.

carlwaring
01-04-2012, 19:53
if that is the case then I would like to see them do some form of bolt-on like for mobile phones where you can pay an extra £5 for another 50gb before you get stm'd or something.
You know this is about their cable broadband services, right? :confused:

craigj2k12
01-04-2012, 20:05
the bit before the bold says "like"

Milambar
01-04-2012, 20:43
If they are going to move to a monthly stm cap, and the information available on these forums seems to suggest that is the case, then they really do need to provide a server-side based bandwith monitor.

However until theres official statements, its just speculation.

Jumping
01-04-2012, 20:45
You know this is about their cable broadband services, right? :confused:

Yeah cause he wants boltons like you get on the mobile network for extra data limits. Not sure how its confusing.

carlwaring
01-04-2012, 20:53
the bit before the bold says "like"
:o:

Mad Max
01-04-2012, 21:09
if that is the case then I would like to see them do some form of bolt-on like for mobile phones where you can pay an extra £5 for another 50gb before you get stm'd or something.



Eh...........:confused:

General Maximus
01-04-2012, 21:31
You know this is about their cable broadband services, right? :confused:

no, I want to pay £5 a month so I can download 50gb through my mobile phone :banghead:

So lets review the conversation for those of us who cant keep up:

stm is a pain in the ass. I wish they would just give us the option to pay the un-discounted price of £35 and keep things as they are.

Never gonna happen.

Why not? I am not asking for anything new, i just want to keep what i have already got

Most likely reason is VM realised they couldnt handle un STM'd 100mbit and had a choice of STMing it or increasing prices to make it viable to pay for upgrades, the latter I suspect needed a price much higher than £35 a month

if that is the case then I would like to see them do some form of bolt-on like for mobile phones where you can pay an extra £5 for another 50gb before you get stm'd or something.


Sooooooo, given that I can't keep my current 100mbit service as it is and Chrysalis has suggested that it would cost significantly more than what I currently pay, I used an analogy of an already implemented service being used on another technology (mobile phones :spin: ) to provide an example of how VM can implement a graduated price plan to off set the additional expense for those customers who want an stm free service.

Chrysalis
01-04-2012, 22:03
Given that they would probably lose their job if they did, I am quite happy for them not to.



So, just just mindless speculation from you then with no basis other than something against VM by the sound of it.

where did I say it wasnt speculation?

I buy services of VM I dont have to like them.

carlwaring
01-04-2012, 23:24
So lets review the conversation for those of us who cant keep up.
And you're so perfect you never make mistakes or mis-understand anything? :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 22:24 ---------- Previous post was at 22:24 ----------

I buy services of VM I dont have to like them.
I don't generally buy anything from a company I don't like. I assume you don't have any choice where you live?

BenMcr
02-04-2012, 10:49
If they are going to move to a monthly stm cap, and the information available on these forums seems to suggest that is the case, then they really do need to provide a server-side based bandwith monitor.

However until theres official statements, its just speculation.They are not moving to a monthly STM cap

telfordcable
02-04-2012, 11:45
Where is the official new STM today ? There is nothing on it yet.

BenMcr
02-04-2012, 11:49
The day isn't over yet

telfordcable
02-04-2012, 11:53
The day isn't over yet

Maybe they can't decided yet because if the STM is pretty worse than the old one, and if Sky bring FTTC 80/20 with totally UNLIMITED and no FUP and no cap, then I think more peoples will be leaving Virgin Media to join Sky Broadband but I think Virgin Media had to be careful not to lose too many customers once Sky FTTC launching soon this month.

BenMcr
02-04-2012, 11:54
Maybe they can't decided yet because if the STM is pretty worse than the old oneExcept it's not, for most people

telfordcable
02-04-2012, 11:57
I bet lower 30 Meg will be worse off on STM then the higher one 120 Meg.

I hope 30 Meg will allow 10Gb per day or 310Gb per month before it kick in STM with 50% reduce in speed from 30 to 15 Meg ?

BenMcr
02-04-2012, 12:26
New management policy is now live at www.virginmedia.com/traffic (http://www.virginmedia.com/traffic)

philipp
02-04-2012, 12:40
Its not as bad as I thought.


The only niggle I have is waiting for double speed (from october mine apparantly is). As soon as you have double speed your quota gets doubled. Like the way it only halves though.


(XXL 50 is 10 gig daytime , 5 gig 4-9 )
(XXL 100 is 20 gig daytime , 10 gig 4-9 )

telfordcable
02-04-2012, 12:42
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2012/04/67.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2012/04/68.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

BenMcr
02-04-2012, 12:43
Was there any need to do that?

Sirius
02-04-2012, 12:48
Was there any need to do that?

Its what trolls do

I have no issue with the new STM

telfordcable
02-04-2012, 12:52
New STM isn't that bad at all. But, will they restrict on BBCi player, Skygo, YouTubes, Skype video chat ?

mark1234
02-04-2012, 12:55
So, going from 20Mb to 60Mb (as per the planned upgrades) means that the peak time download limit goes from 3500MB to 5000MB. Proportionately that's a lot worse. Though I guess the 50% reduction still gives more than 20Mb was to start with.

BenMcr
02-04-2012, 12:55
New STM isn't that bad at all. But, will they restrict on BBCi player, Skygo, YouTubes, Skype video chat ?The way the management works hasn't changed

smallclone
02-04-2012, 12:56
A bit confused. I'm on 10MB (though I only get about 3MB) . I won't be "upgraded" until October 2012 - July 2013.

Therefore this doesn't affect me

right?

BenMcr
02-04-2012, 12:57
A bit confused. I'm on 10MB (though I only get about 3MB) . I won't be "upgraded" until October 2012 - July 2013.

Therefore this doesn't affect me

right?Correct. The management on M 10, L 10 and XL 20 hasn't changed

smallclone
02-04-2012, 12:58
Thanks

peanut
02-04-2012, 13:01
Just as well my area is due to be upgraded this month to 100mb. I feel sorry for those on 50mb that's going to have a long wait.

Kymmy
02-04-2012, 13:05
Mines due March/April (I presume it's now April ;)) but as I download everything about 7-9am It's not going to be an issue on the current 50Mb

pace508
02-04-2012, 13:15
hi
i am new to this traffic management, i download between 6.30am to 9am is this counted in some way

*sloman*
02-04-2012, 13:17
So let me get this right!!!

I'm XXL100 (soon to be 120)

Between 10am-3pm i can download (20000MB) just shy of 20GB (20480MB)
Between 4pm-9pm i can download (10000MB) just shy of 10GB (10240MB)

Luckily this is a family forum so i cant express how i really feel!

Thankfully BT infinity is in my area, and the new box is only 30meters from my house!

BenMcr
02-04-2012, 13:20
So let me get this right!!!

I'm XXL100 (soon to be 120)

Between 10am-3pm i can download (20000MB) just shy of 20GB (20480MB)
Between 4pm-9pm i can download (10000MB) just shy of 10GB (10240MB)You can download more than that, but at up to 50Mbit rather than up to 100Mbit

pace508
02-04-2012, 13:22
sorry forgot to mention i just be upgraded on double speed to 60meg

BenMcr
02-04-2012, 13:24
hi
i am new to this traffic management, i download between 6.30am to 9am is this counted in some way

sorry forgot to mention i just be upgraded on double speed to 60megManagement doesn't start until 10am

pace508
02-04-2012, 13:34
Management doesn't start until 10am

i cannot see the new traffic management affecting me, if thats the case

kwikbreaks
02-04-2012, 13:34
So let me get this right!!!

I'm XXL100 (soon to be 120)

Between 10am-3pm i can download (20000MB) just shy of 20GB (20480MB)
Between 4pm-9pm i can download (10000MB) just shy of 10GB (10240MB)

Luckily this is a family forum so i cant express how i really feel!

Thankfully BT infinity is in my area, and the new box is only 30meters from my house!
So that's 30GB a day or close to 1TB a month in what most ISPs would class as peak times before there is any restriction. If you do exceed that then the restriction is to reduce your speed to 50Mbps which is still faster than most other ISPs can deliver.

To my mind it's a very generous allowance. Far too generous IMO as if more than a tiny proportion of the customers in an area use that amount on a regular basis it will way exceed the local capacity.

*sloman*
02-04-2012, 13:56
So that's 30GB a day or close to 1TB a month in what most ISPs would class as peak times before there is any restriction. If you do exceed that then the restriction is to reduce your speed to 50Mbps which is still faster than most other ISPs can deliver.

To my mind it's a very generous allowance. Far too generous IMO as if more than a tiny proportion of the customers in an area use that amount on a regular basis it will way exceed the local capacity.


I would prefer a monthly limit, why should I be penalised for 5hrs if i download a couple HD rips. When i was on 20mb it was not the reduction in speed but the affect it had on ping for online gaming!

(yeah i'm not going to lie about why i have 100mb, 90% of 100mb will be doing the same. no point saying its just for downloading linux distro's from newsgroups ;)

mrselfdestruct
02-04-2012, 14:37
Not sure why for 100Mb it states the upgraded upload speed as 10Mb? Surely it would be 12Mb when it moves to 120Mb eventually?

Also, why is the standard upload speed for the independant 100Mb tier N/A? when the standards 10Mb?

Confused.

telfordcable
02-04-2012, 14:38
don't think upload won't be 12Mb now. Staying at 10Mb.

BenMcr
02-04-2012, 14:43
It's already been metioned about the table over on the Community Forum and I've fed it back.

It was done like that because the 'full' 100Mbit tier has only has one upstream speed, where the others have had/got two depending on how you've got it as part of the upgrade.

telfordcable
02-04-2012, 14:58
Virgin Media should get a new package eg: 80/20 to match BT FTTC (wishful thinking)

JPAC
02-04-2012, 15:15
When the speed gets doubled, what's the difference between XL and ML20?

BenMcr
02-04-2012, 15:16
about 40Mbit as XL will be 60Mbit ;)

Jayster
02-04-2012, 15:22
You just have to ask yourself, whats the point?

JPAC
02-04-2012, 15:26
Sorry, I meant to ask, when speeds are doubled what will Size:L be called?

XL or ML20?

BenMcr
02-04-2012, 15:30
It'll be L (up to 20Mbit) on the bill I believe. But in the table it's ML20 as M and L are being merged into the same tier

Sirius
02-04-2012, 15:33
So the virgin website shows me as being on the new super duper doubled speed but its still 100 meg not the 120 meg it should be. They say thats a problem with the website but have not fixed it yet, :mad:.

So who wants to bet they still give me the new traffic management even when they have not given me the 120 meg :mad:

BenMcr
02-04-2012, 15:33
So the virgin website shows me as being on the new super duper doubled speed but its still 100 meg not the 120 it should be if i was on the new teir :mad:

Bet they give me the new traffic management even when they have not given me the 120 meg :mad:120Mbit hasn't launched yet - that's later this year

Sirius
02-04-2012, 15:39
120 Mbit hasn't launched yet - that's later this year

So later this year for the traffic management for existing 100 meg users then is it ??, Because that's my upgrade to super duper speed and they say this traffic management does not hit you till you are upgraded, i hope i don't get the new traffic management now because that means there pulling a fast one YET AGAIN.

BenMcr
02-04-2012, 15:40
So later this year for the traffic management, Because that's my upgrade to super duper speed and they say this does not hit you till then, i hope i don't get the new traffic management now because that means there pulling a fast one YET AGAIN.Traffic Management on 50 and 100Mbit does apply now. Virgin have never sold either as being a guaranteed unmanaged connection

Sirius
02-04-2012, 15:42
Traffic Management on 50 and 100Mbit does apply now. Virgin have never sold either as being a guaranteed unmanaged connection

So does the new traffic management affect those that have NOT been upgraded ?

As customers are migrated to their fantastic new speeds during the Speed Doubling program, we’ll be relaxing our traffic management policy by expanding their traffic management trigger thresholds.

So why will i be hit now when my upgrade has not happened yet ??

jimexbox
02-04-2012, 15:43
Its there now...

http://help.virginmedia.com/system/selfservice.controller?CMD=VIEW_ARTICLE&ARTICLE_ID=334688&CURRENT_CMD=SEARCH&CONFIGURATION=1002&PARTITION_ID=1&USERTYPE=1&LANGUAGE=en&COUNTY=us&VM_CUSTOMER_TYPE=Cable#double

BenMcr
02-04-2012, 15:46
So does the new traffic managment affect those that have NOT been upgraded ?Yes

Sirius
02-04-2012, 15:49
Yes

Then the rest is " Whats the chuffing point" i think you will get the rest from that :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

buckleb
02-04-2012, 15:49
The elephant in the room here is that these measure, whatever one thinks of them, would not be required if people stopped regarding copyright-theft as a basic human right.

Of course the ISPs, including Virginmedia, are themselves to blame for a lot of this emphasising the raw download speed, which can only really be of interest to those who live to download the internet each night.

These latest restrictions by Virginmedia are actually quite reasonable in my opinion, and won't really handicap anyone engaged in normal internet activity.

Sirius
02-04-2012, 15:53
The elephant in the room here is that these measure, whatever one thinks of them, would not be required if people stopped regarding copyright-theft as a basic human right.


Just one dam minute these measure affect those who

Stream video
Stream Music
Use Spotify
Download from Origin
Download from Steam
Stream from Iplayer
Stream from Netflixs
Stream from Lovefilms
Stream from ITV player
Upload to my FTP
Backup to Cloud including VM's own backup system that they give to every user who wants it.
Upload to my website
Play online gaming
Be a server for an online game
Voip calls
Stream tv to my Ipad when away from home


The list is longer and i am sure others could add to that

When you have a family who use the above ALL the time STM becomes the biggest pain in the arse of any ISP



These latest restrictions by Virginmedia are actually quite reasonable in my opinion, and won't really handicap anyone engaged in normal internet activity.

So what is this normal activity you talk about

Jumping
02-04-2012, 15:54
The elephant in the room here is that these measure, whatever one thinks of them, would not be required if people stopped regarding copyright-theft as a basic human right.

Of course the ISPs, including Virginmedia, are themselves to blame for a lot of this emphasising the raw download speed, which can only really be of interest to those who live to download the internet each night.

These latest restrictions by Virginmedia are actually quite reasonable in my opinion, and won't really handicap anyone engaged in normal internet activity.

Yeah cause there really isnt any legal way to download a lot of data...Patch World of Warcraft or use the download to play, buy some games from Steam, download Windows 8 beta etc there are plenty of legal ways to use a lot of data and its certainly normal internet activity.

Sirius
02-04-2012, 15:59
Yeah cause there really isnt any legal way to download a lot of data...Patch World of Warcraft or use the download to play, buy some games from Steam, download Windows 8 beta etc there are plenty of legal ways to use a lot of data and its certainly normal internet activity.

And don't mention using bit torrent to mirror the Raspberry pie isos like i am :rolleyes:

Remember people think Bit Torrent is for illegal use only:rolleyes:

Rexz
02-04-2012, 16:02
The elephant in the room here is that these measure, whatever one thinks of them, would not be required if people stopped regarding copyright-theft as a basic human right.

Of course the ISPs, including Virginmedia, are themselves to blame for a lot of this emphasising the raw download speed, which can only really be of interest to those who live to download the internet each night.

These latest restrictions by Virginmedia are actually quite reasonable in my opinion, and won't really handicap anyone engaged in normal internet activity.

Normal internet activity? So now it is classed as abnormal use if we dare use the speed we are given? I just don't get why we keep coming back to this same argument. It has absolutely nothing to do with illegal downloading or abnormal internet use. The restrictions are there simply because the network can't cope with the high amount of traffic at these times. Yes I know its not a dedicated line and these traffic restrictions are here to help us also, but in seeing our speed doubled, we now have a new set of restrictions in place simply because they are cramming more people onto their network which can't cope. We should really look at our internet connections as the traffic managed speeds and then look at our full speed as a kind of boost "out of hours". It will be interesting to see how this plays out with BT and the competition out there.

philipp
02-04-2012, 16:04
Just one dam minute these measure affect those who

Stream video
Stream Music
Download from Origin
Download from Steam
Stream from Iplayer
Stream from Netflixs
Stream from Lovefilms
Stream from ITV player

When you have a family who use the above ALL the time STM becomes the biggest pain in the arse of any ISP


You have to rmemeber it will only drop to 50mbit for your 100mbit connection. Streaming should still work from multiple sources or on multiple pcs at that point. Streaming HD content is roughly 1 to 1.5 gb an hr so a stm'ed 100mbit connection should handle similatenous streaming of at least 10 films/tv/whatever.

Its a decent limit. Much better than I was expecting. And only going down to 50% is a plus.

Sirius
02-04-2012, 16:06
You have to rmemeber it will only drop to 50mbit for your 100mbit connection. Streaming should still work from multiple sources or on multiple pcs at that point. Streaming HD content is roughly 1 to 1.5 gb an hr so a stm'ed 100mbit connection should handle similatenous streaming of at least 10 films/tv/whatever.

Its a decent limit. Much better than I was expecting. And only going down to 50% is a plus.

My worry is what the STM does to the connection after it throttles you ;)

philipp
02-04-2012, 16:19
My worry is what the STM does to the connection after it throttles you ;)


Point taken I forgot the ping goes high and it feels sluggish because of how its done. Long time since I have been stm'ed.

But my point is still valid ;)

carlwaring
02-04-2012, 16:35
The elephant in the room here is that these measure, whatever one thinks of them, would not be required if people stopped regarding copyright-theft as a basic human right.

These latest restrictions by Virginmedia are actually quite reasonable in my opinion, and won't really handicap anyone engaged in normal internet activity.
Quite right, but they can still download their "of dubious legality" content, just not always at full speed; and still a lot faster than most people with ADSL ;)

Yeah cause there really isnt any legal way to download a lot of data...Patch World of Warcraft or use the download to play, buy some games from Steam, download Windows 8 beta etc there are plenty of legal ways to use a lot of data and its certainly normal internet activity.
Yes, but how often do you have to do any of those? Do you find yourself downloading a new muti-GB release of Windows 8 beta, or patching WOW every day?

Normal internet activity? So now it is classed as abnormal use if we dare use the speed we are given?
Don't think anyone's ever said that.

Jumping
02-04-2012, 16:50
Yes, but how often do you have to do any of those? Do you find yourself downloading a new muti-GB release of Windows 8 beta, or patching WOW every day?


It's not about doing it everyday it was just some examples, there are plenty of ways to use quite a lot of data everyday. If you have a family with a few kids streaming videos playing online games etc etc I mean its really not hard to use a lot of bytes a day. We will use more and more data too so people bought their internet package depending on usage so the fact that it changes and get more restricted is imho a huge step backwards.

Sure there are some people out there that abuse the connection and download/seed 24/7 illegal stuff but its more easy than ever to get high usage legally and I shouldn't have to sit and list all of them just because some people believe that what we been told that downloading have to be illegal is gospel.

Rexz
02-04-2012, 17:00
It's not about doing it everyday it was just some examples, there are plenty of ways to use quite a lot of data everyday. If you have a family with a few kids streaming videos playing online games etc etc I mean its really not hard to use a lot of bytes a day. We will use more and more data too so people bought their internet package depending on usage so the fact that it changes and get more restricted is imho a huge step backwards.

Sure there are some people out there that abuse the connection and download/seed 24/7 illegal stuff but its more easy than ever to get high usage legally and I shouldn't have to sit and list all of them just because some people believe that what we been told that downloading have to be illegal is gospel.

I couldn't agree more. I'm getting so tired of people living in the past. I also hate getting classified as a downloader of illegal content as soon as I go over normal usage (so normal is browsing the internet and receiving emails right?).

JPAC
02-04-2012, 17:21
It'll be L (up to 20Mbit) on the bill I believe. But in the table it's ML20 as M and L are being merged into the same tier
Thanks for that clarification.

Just to be clear, when the speed doubles, will VM announce a new set of STM tables?

As per;
"As customers are migrated to their fantastic new speeds during the Speed Doubling (http://www.virginmedia.com/doublespeed) program, we’ll be relaxing our traffic management policy by expanding their traffic management trigger thresholds".

BenMcr
02-04-2012, 17:26
The thresholds for pre and post speed doubling are already in the tables

That paragraph is being changed to make it clearer

DaMac
02-04-2012, 17:37
Throwing my hat into the ring on the illegal downloading acusation.. South Korea's largest Internet Provider KT (which is considered to have the worlds most advanced and fastest broadband) is blocking Samsung smart TV's from it's network because of the incredible strain they are putting on it. Now how much illegal activity do you think is going on there? :confused: Answer is none.

babis3g
02-04-2012, 17:39
personal opinion, the new traffic policy is OK if you are with 100mb package
if you extend it still let you with 50mb which still fast enough just hope ping/latency will not go up if ever happens

Risco
02-04-2012, 17:59
I just want them to fix the damn ping and latency issues. The STM is more than reasonable, can't see myself downloading over 20GB between 10-3pm, however the 4-9pm is a little tight at 10gb, would prefer a 20/20 limit.

As stated, they keep increasing the prices and speed but restrict your ability to use it fully. I would much prefer they INVEST in their NETWORK and sort out this utilisation issues than double my speeds then STM me if I happen to trip over the line once in a while!

tweetiepooh
02-04-2012, 18:08
I'm wondering what happens between 1500 and 1600 since there doesn't seem to be any STM over that hour. (Wish we'd use 24hr time!)

1000-1500 = 20GB
1600-2100 = 10GB

hjf288
02-04-2012, 18:20
You download all you possibly can during that hour? XD

I'm setting my VMs to do their updates and cronjobs at that hour

But yeah those figures are a joke... Wouldn't have minded upstream STM but they've pretty much completely changed the product.

Point of 50/100 was the lack of STM (then the upload boost came in and I didn't really mind because I don't torrent)

Whats the point of having 100Mbit if you are going to be at 50Mbit most of the time.. they shouldve just kept 50Mbit and spun it as a free speedboost for the first 20GB of data and 10GB at night since thats pretty much what it is...

Guess I'm just waiting for BT to deploy 80/20 FTTC...

Sigma
02-04-2012, 18:35
I've got no complaints about this.

A week ago, I had a 20 Mbps connection that would get cut to 5 Mbps if I downloaded over 7GB in the day, or 3.5GB in the evening.

Now I have a 60 Mbps connection that will get cut to 30 Mbps (i.e. 50% faster than my max speed a week ago) if I download over 10GB in the day or 5GB in the evening.

Obviously I would prefer there to be no STM at all, but I don't understand some of the gripes. If you had 50 Mbps, you're getting your speed doubled to 100 Mbps for free and if the STM kicks in, you'll be back down to 50 Mbps again (so no worse off), but for a large chunk of the day you'll be able to download at 100 Mbps.

pythagoras
02-04-2012, 18:36
This dosnt seem at all fair. I am paying exactly the same as 100Mb customers, being on xxl50, yet I can only download half the amount before I'm traffic managed, at that point I'll get 25mb speeds so a quarter of the 100mb peeps for the same price.

Surely this cant be correct? I'm only due to be doubled between oct and july 2013, so I'll be paying for a far inferior service for between 7 months and 15 months.

Regards

John

philipp
02-04-2012, 18:48
This dosnt seem at all fair. I am paying exactly the same as 100Mb customers, being on xxl50, yet I can only download half the amount before I'm traffic managed, at that point I'll get 25mb speeds so a quarter of the 100mb peeps for the same price.

Surely this cant be correct? I'm only due to be doubled between oct and july 2013, so I'll be paying for a far inferior service for between 7 months and 15 months.

Regards

John

I agree with this. But the limit isn't bad itself. BUT they could have thought it out better for pre and post upgrade as we are paying the same.

jimexbox
02-04-2012, 18:54
This dosnt seem at all fair. I am paying exactly the same as 100Mb customers, being on xxl50, yet I can only download half the amount before I'm traffic managed, at that point I'll get 25mb speeds so a quarter of the 100mb peeps for the same price.

Surely this cant be correct? I'm only due to be doubled between oct and july 2013, so I'll be paying for a far inferior service for between 7 months and 15 months.

Regards

John

My XL 30 to 60Mb upgrade wasn't due till April-July, I still (and did) upgrade to XXL 100Mb. Costs just a few quid more than 30Mb. Check to see if your area is 100Mb ready and ring customer services up, it will be a new 12month contact.

General Maximus
02-04-2012, 18:57
so let me get this straight, on 10mbit upload it is alright for me to upload 12gb, but on 100mbit down I can only download 10gb? That sounds backwards to me. 20gb down during the day is beyond poo. If it is alright to upload 12gb in the evening on 10mbit up(which I doubt any of us will ever do) then we should be able to download 120gb during the day on 100mbit down. You are talking about hitting the stm in 18 minutes and being screwed for the next 5 hours.

pythagoras
02-04-2012, 19:02
My XL 30 to 60Mb upgrade wasn't due till April-July, I still (and did) upgrade to XXL 100Mb. Costs just a few quid more than 30Mb. Check to see if your area is 100Mb ready and ring customer services up, it will be a new 12month contact.

Im already paying the same as 100MB customers, but only getting a 50Mb service, with worse STM terms. Thats my point.

broadbandking
02-04-2012, 19:21
I can say I am happy with the new STM limits can't see my self downloading 20Gb in the day.

crazyronnie
02-04-2012, 19:28
I'm not surprised that your happy with the new STM. You work for VM after all.

Chrysalis
02-04-2012, 19:37
Ok so the issue remains really.

The downstream is too restrictive, 20gig on a 100mbit connection? I think I remember posting I thought 90gig would be reasonable.

The upstream on the other hand seems too generous based on what state the upstreams are in.

carlwaring
02-04-2012, 19:45
I'm not surprised that your happy with the new STM. You work for VM after all.
:rolleyes:

Chrysalis
02-04-2012, 19:48
were the old 30meg STM limits the same as the new one? cant remember.

gaz2810i
02-04-2012, 20:14
Where it says 5h STM for reaching the limit is that 5 hours from what ever time you reach it? i.e. If i reach the 20gb cap on the 100mb service at 14.55 will I then be capped till 8 O'clock? Also If I then meet the 10gb limit on the 50% speed, between 4 and 9, Lets say by 5 O'Clock will it then add another 5 hours onto my time, so I would get my full speed back till 1am the next morning :confused:

---------- Post added at 19:14 ---------- Previous post was at 19:11 ----------

Throwing my hat into the ring on the illegal downloading acusation.. South Korea's largest Internet Provider KT (which is considered to have the worlds most advanced and fastest broadband) is blocking Samsung smart TV's from it's network because of the incredible strain they are putting on it. Now how much illegal activity do you think is going on there? :confused: Answer is none.

I have a Samsung PS64D8000 smart TV, why are they using so much data.

broadbandking
02-04-2012, 20:24
I'm not surprised that your happy with the new STM. You work for VM after all.

Just because I work for VM doesn't mean I have to agree with everything they do I have my own views and as I have no desire to download the internet then I am happy with STM limits, if I was unhappy with the new limits then I would have stated I don't agree with them.

I really don't see the need to download 20Gb everyday during the day unless it illegal, you can only install 1 linux distro at a time.

Jelly
02-04-2012, 20:48
The elephant in the room here is that these measure, whatever one thinks of them, would not be required if people stopped regarding copyright-theft as a basic human right.

Of course the ISPs, including Virginmedia, are themselves to blame for a lot of this emphasising the raw download speed, which can only really be of interest to those who live to download the internet each night.

These latest restrictions by Virginmedia are actually quite reasonable in my opinion, and won't really handicap anyone engaged in normal internet activity.

i used to think like you, then when i started getting my entertainment legitimately i realised i download more data than ever. now i have to take into account how many youtube videos i can watch or whether i want to download a patch. its cool and not stupid at all

Sirius
02-04-2012, 20:54
I'm not surprised that your happy with the new STM. You work for VM after all.

I work for them and i don't like the new limits, So whats your answer to that ?

i used to think like you, then when i started getting my entertainment legitimately i realised i download more data than ever. now i have to take into account how many youtube videos i can watch or whether i want to download a patch. its cool and not stupid at all

Indeed if you do any of these you will suffer

Stream video
Stream Music
Use Spotify
Download from Origin
Download from Steam
Stream from Iplayer
Stream from Netflixs
Stream from Lovefilms
Stream from ITV player
Upload to my FTP
Backup to Cloud including VM's own backup system that they give to every user who wants it.
Upload to my website
Play online gaming
Be a server for an online game
Voip calls
Stream tv to my Ipad when away from home


The list is longer and i am sure others could add to that

When you have a family who use the above ALL the time STM becomes the biggest pain in the arse of any ISP

---------- Post added at 19:54 ---------- Previous post was at 19:52 ----------

.

I really don't see the need to download 20Gb everyday during the day unless it illegal, you can only install 1 linux distro at a time.

I take it you dont have a big family doing any of these

Stream video
Stream Music
Use Spotify
Download from Origin
Download from Steam
Stream from Iplayer
Stream from Netflixs
Stream from Lovefilms
Stream from ITV player
Upload to my FTP
Backup to Cloud including VM's own backup system that they give to every user who wants it.
Upload to my website
Play online gaming
Be a server for an online game
Voip calls
Stream tv to my Ipad when away from home

Use Workaway

General Maximus
02-04-2012, 21:14
Where it says 5h STM for reaching the limit is that 5 hours from what ever time you reach it? i.e. If i reach the 20gb cap on the 100mb service at 14.55 will I then be capped till 8 O'clock? Also If I then meet the 10gb limit on the 50% speed, between 4 and 9, Lets say by 5 O'Clock will it then add another 5 hours onto my time, so I would get my full speed back till 1am the next morning :confused

Yup, you are stm'd for 5 hours from when you hit so your downstream would be reduced by 50% for 5 hours taking you to 19:55 but this is independant of your upstream. If your upstream was chopped by 75% at 1700 for 5 hours (taking you to 2200) your downstream would still go back to 100% at 19:55

Skie
02-04-2012, 21:18
I do a lot of mapping in work, but the only way to actually get the maps from the OS into our office is for me to download them at home.

One set of tiles for the UK is 30GB. So I'll be STM'd once a month at least, yay :)

carlwaring
02-04-2012, 21:56
Then you shouldn't be using a home consumer service for business use.

(Yes, I know you're not a business yourself, but I am technically correct; if not 100% serious ;))

greeninferno
02-04-2012, 23:03
Just one dam minute these measure affect those who

Stream video
Stream Music
Use Spotify
Download from Origin
Download from Steam
Stream from Iplayer
Stream from Netflixs
Stream from Lovefilms
Stream from ITV player
Upload to my FTP
Backup to Cloud including VM's own backup system that they give to every user who wants it.
Upload to my website
Play online gaming
Be a server for an online game
Voip calls
Stream tv to my Ipad when away from home


The list is longer and i am sure others could add to that

When you have a family who use the above ALL the time STM becomes the biggest pain in the arse of any ISP



So what is this normal activity you talk about

you could add in Sky Anytime + as they are now allowing any Broadband provider to stream their stuff including HD films.

Anyone know what the average size of an HD film would be on Sky Anytime+?

BenMcr
02-04-2012, 23:50
Anyone know what the average size of an HD film would be on Sky Anytime+?You can't get HD films via Anytime+. They still get downloaded via the satellite

broadbandking
02-04-2012, 23:52
I work for them and i don't like the new limits, So whats your answer to that ?



Indeed if you do any of these you will suffer

Stream video
Stream Music
Use Spotify
Download from Origin
Download from Steam
Stream from Iplayer
Stream from Netflixs
Stream from Lovefilms
Stream from ITV player
Upload to my FTP
Backup to Cloud including VM's own backup system that they give to every user who wants it.
Upload to my website
Play online gaming
Be a server for an online game
Voip calls
Stream tv to my Ipad when away from home


The list is longer and i am sure others could add to that

When you have a family who use the above ALL the time STM becomes the biggest pain in the arse of any ISP

---------- Post added at 19:54 ---------- Previous post was at 19:52 ----------



I take it you dont have a big family doing any of these

Stream video
Stream Music
Use Spotify
Download from Origin
Download from Steam
Stream from Iplayer
Stream from Netflixs
Stream from Lovefilms
Stream from ITV player
Upload to my FTP
Backup to Cloud including VM's own backup system that they give to every user who wants it.
Upload to my website
Play online gaming
Be a server for an online game
Voip calls
Stream tv to my Ipad when away from home

Use Workaway

So your saying ever night or most nights you watch films TV shows play online games upload data to an FTP a website all at the same time surely not plus "Stream tv to my Ipad when away from home" won't use your VM broadband.

I admit families now use more bandwidth but you got 12Gb worth to upload I am sure you'll be between 5-9

Sigma
02-04-2012, 23:52
I'm not surprised that your happy with the new STM. You work for VM after all.
I don't work for VM but I am happy with the new STM limits, simply because there is no situation where I am worse off than I was before.

Perhaps I'm just not understanding the nature of the gripes though. I do understand why people who have not yet been upgraded are unhappy, but post-upgrade everyone will be better off than they were previously, won't they?

Risco
03-04-2012, 00:00
It better fix this crap!!

Download Failed (1) (http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/d61a88a4500da4125cc8d3b144cd6843-02-04-2012.html)

Download Failed (1) (http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/17b09baa513f0c0ff57e88d1975f22cc-01-04-2012.html)

Download Failed (1) (http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/f1e9bb308644015bfa1b2b2a650d910f-31-03-2012.html)

jcm193
03-04-2012, 00:02
I would be happy with the stm if i actually downloaded enough to trigger it my 100 meg connection has been painfully slow since 5pm and downloading from newsgroups is now a total joke well done virgin in destroying any faith i ever had in you.How can it be acceptable for virgin to keep on charging full price for a now sub standard service there is nothing quite like having your cake and eating it.

Chrysalis
03-04-2012, 01:32
It better fix this crap!!

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share-thumb/d61a88a4500da4125cc8d3b144cd6843-02-04-2012.png (http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/d61a88a4500da4125cc8d3b144cd6843-02-04-2012.html)

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share-thumb/17b09baa513f0c0ff57e88d1975f22cc-01-04-2012.png (http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/17b09baa513f0c0ff57e88d1975f22cc-01-04-2012.html)

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share-thumb/f1e9bb308644015bfa1b2b2a650d910f-31-03-2012.png (http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/f1e9bb308644015bfa1b2b2a650d910f-31-03-2012.html)

only time will tell, as the top 2 tiers will now get download stm when they previously didnt and the top 1 tier will get upload stm when it previously didnt, I suspect the prime cause of your messy graph is upstream congestion. There is also rumoured 2nd US channels coming, and if its truly new capacity (not bonding existing 2nd channel) then that will improve things.

babis3g
03-04-2012, 06:02
found this from a board with complains about new traffic from VM
http://www.cap.org.uk/Media-Centre/2012/~/media/Files/CAP/CAP/Help%20Note%20on%20use%20of%20unlimited%20claims%2 0in%20telecommunications%20advertising%20%282%29.a shx

Sirius
03-04-2012, 07:47
So your saying ever night or most nights you watch films TV shows play online games upload data to an FTP a website all at the same time surely not plus "Stream tv to my Ipad when away from home" won't use your VM broadband.

I admit families now use more bandwidth but you got 12Gb worth to upload I am sure you'll be between 5-9

Its not the upload i am worried about, Its the download in the evening that worries me and its affect on my connection. It will get reduced because i dared to use it for anything other than browsing or checking my mail.

kwikbreaks
03-04-2012, 08:47
Its not the upload i am worried about, Its the download in the evening that worries me and its affect on my connection. It will get reduced because i dared to use it for anything other than browsing or checking my mail.
If you do 10GB of an evening browsing and reading email you must be a very very fast reader. Even if you hit STM then the 50Mbps you'll be restricted to is plenty good enough for a very large family to browse and read email.

To avoid the growing problem of oversubscription VM would need a much more draconian STM. That means it will still be a post code lottery on whether or not you get close to the headline speeds.

Blackened
03-04-2012, 09:23
were the old 30meg STM limits the same as the new one? cant remember.

Yeah.

Old: http://www.virginmedia.com/images/tm-table-fu-large.jpg

You just go down to 50% speed instead of 75% speed when STM'd.

I'm sure someone said the threshold's were changing too. I Must have misunderstood.

broadbandking
03-04-2012, 09:52
Its not the upload i am worried about, Its the download in the evening that worries me and its affect on my connection. It will get reduced because i dared to use it for anything other than browsing or checking my mail.

Some of the things you listed can surely be done after before the STM windows kick in, plus 50Mb could handle a few family members steaming.

I am not trying too nit pick Sirius but why not test it then see if it really does affect you that much.

carlwaring
03-04-2012, 10:56
found this from a board with complains about new traffic from VM
http://www.cap.org.uk/Media-Centre/2012/~/media/Files/CAP/CAP/Help%20Note%20on%20use%20of%20unlimited%20claims%2 0in%20telecommunications%20advertising%20%282%29.a shx
Thanks for that. Although I have only glanced through the document, it certainly seems to prove that VM are working within the rules when advertising their service as "unlimited". Though I'm sure this fact will annoy a certain number of people. Wish I'd found it myself years ago back in the days of the VM newsgroups :)

Sirius
03-04-2012, 11:08
Some of the things you listed can surely be done after before the STM windows kick in, plus 50Mb could handle a few family members steaming.

I am not trying too nit pick Sirius but why not test it then see if it really does affect you that much.

I will be testing it and if its affecting me drastically then i am willing to pay for infinity.

sniper007
03-04-2012, 11:27
This dosnt seem at all fair. I am paying exactly the same as 100Mb customers, being on xxl50, yet I can only download half the amount before I'm traffic managed, at that point I'll get 25mb speeds so a quarter of the 100mb peeps for the same price.

Surely this cant be correct? I'm only due to be doubled between oct and july 2013, so I'll be paying for a far inferior service for between 7 months and 15 months.

Regards

John

Im already paying the same as 100MB customers, but only getting a 50Mb service, with worse STM terms. Thats my point.

John can you explain this to me? I am on XXL 50mb and have been told the same that my speed will double between October 2012 and July 2013. I have always paid a premium for 50mb due to lack of STM but now this looks to me like this is a big impact for potentially over a year. Why do you (myself as well?) pay the same as 100mb customer I do not understand. Apologies, I am not too clued up on the area of broadband tier pricing but understand that there is/was a 100mb tier AND a 120mb tier?

I have also now just read in another thread that one cannot downgrade to 30mb now to get the "free" upgrade to 60mb, although I may be interpreting this incorrectly.

Overall I feel let down as a loyal VM customer right now, and that there is no point paying a premium for 50mb anymore.

buckleb
03-04-2012, 11:33
Yeah cause there really isnt any legal way to download a lot of data...Patch World of Warcraft or use the download to play, buy some games from Steam, download Windows 8 beta etc there are plenty of legal ways to use a lot of data and its certainly normal internet activity.

And don't mention using bit torrent to mirror the Raspberry pie isos like i am :rolleyes:

Remember people think Bit Torrent is for illegal use only:rolleyes:

Yes, because mirroring isos is pretty normal, right? Downloading the Warcraft client every day, and buying games from Steam every day, and downloading Windows 8 every day is normal, right?

Do you think that VM are implementing these measure because of people updating Warcraft, or downloading Windows 8, or watching streamed media?

You see it every day on here, and other sites, nod and winks about downloading 'linux iso images', complaints about throttled newsgroups, boasts about how many GB a night people can squirrel away.

People squealing about how 'their' usage is completely above board and "how dare" others suggest otherwise seem to be protesting a little too much. I'm sure that there are some, quite uncommon, legitimate reasons why somebody would be maxing out their 100Mb connection 24/7, but on the whole, nah, people are generally going at it hammer and tongs.

Unless we include that aspect in the discussion of STM, then it's a waste of time, as people seem reluctant to even acknowledge the existence of such activities, when in fact they seem the main reason for having STM at all.

BenMcr
03-04-2012, 11:37
but understand that there is/was a 100mb tier AND a 120mb tier?There are currently two 100Mbit tiers. XXL 100 and the original 100Mbit. 120Mbit hasn't launched yet but when it does both 100Mbit tiers will be uplifted to 120Mbit as part of the programme

I have also now just read in another thread that one cannot downgrade to 30mb now to get the "free" upgrade to 60mb, although I may be interpreting this incorrectly.That's because all speed changes are onto the new tiers. So techincally if you downgraded from XXL to XL you would actually go from 50Mbit to 60Mbit. Asking to go onto 30Mbit would take you down to L

sniper007
03-04-2012, 11:44
Yes, because mirroring isos is pretty normal, right? Downloading the Warcraft client every day, and buying games from Steam every day, and downloading Windows 8 every day is normal, right?

Do you think that VM are implementing these measure because of people updating Warcraft, or downloading Windows 8, or watching streamed media?

You see it every day on here, and other sites, nod and winks about downloading 'linux iso images', complaints about throttled newsgroups, boasts about how many GB a night people can squirrel away.

People squealing about how 'their' usage is completely above board and "how dare" others suggest otherwise seem to be protesting a little too much. I'm sure that there are some, quite uncommon, legitimate reasons why somebody would be maxing out their 100Mb connection 24/7, but on the whole, nah, people are generally going at it hammer and tongs.

Unless we include that aspect in the discussion of STM, then it's a waste of time, as people seem reluctant to even acknowledge the existence of such activities, when in fact they seem the main reason for having STM at all.

It's not always about maxing the connection out day in, day out, weeks upon end. It's about downloading a big chunk just as a one off during peak times (when you might want to use it) is going to grant you 5 hours of STM. People dislike being penalised for using their high speed connection to download a one off large chunk at a desirable time to them. If that is the only large chunk they download all month, that's not a particularly fair and intelligent STM model. For "repeat offenders" literally leaching/seeding 24/7 torrents then yes, they should be STM'd. If you can't intelligtently and fairly do STM, then don't do it all is the argument.

---------- Post added at 10:44 ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 ----------

There are currently two 100Mbit tiers. XXL 100 and the original 100Mbit. 120Mbit hasn't launched yet but when it does both 100Mbit tiers will be uplifted to 120Mbit as part of the programme

That's because all speed changes are onto the new tiers. So techincally if you downgraded from XXL to XL you would actually go from 50Mbit to 60Mbit. Asking to go onto 30Mbit would take you down to L

So does this mean I am paying more than an EX 30mb user and receiving 10mb less? Ah I find this all so confusing. John above mentioned he is paying the same as a 100mb user? How is this so?
I also read of "everywhere is 100mb enabled now" yet I will not get doubled up from 50 to 100 until October 2012 - July 2013. Why is there a delay if 100mb is enabled and ready?

Sorry for all the questions.

I think a really helpful thread (sticky) would be the history of all tiers/pricing/stm etc. I certainly do not understand it well enough to do it, but you might Ben.

Peter_
03-04-2012, 11:49
This is reason enough for me to be glad that I no longer work for the company and will not have to answer any queries about this new traffic management.https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2012/04/8.gif

Jumping
03-04-2012, 11:49
Yes, because mirroring isos is pretty normal, right? Downloading the Warcraft client every day, and buying games from Steam every day, and downloading Windows 8 every day is normal, right?

Do you think that VM are implementing these measure because of people updating Warcraft, or downloading Windows 8, or watching streamed media?

You see it every day on here, and other sites, nod and winks about downloading 'linux iso images', complaints about throttled newsgroups, boasts about how many GB a night people can squirrel away.

People squealing about how 'their' usage is completely above board and "how dare" others suggest otherwise seem to be protesting a little too much. I'm sure that there are some, quite uncommon, legitimate reasons why somebody would be maxing out their 100Mb connection 24/7, but on the whole, nah, people are generally going at it hammer and tongs.

Unless we include that aspect in the discussion of STM, then it's a waste of time, as people seem reluctant to even acknowledge the existence of such activities, when in fact they seem the main reason for having STM at all.

Yeah I download WoW every day just so I can have the files fresh and make sure they are up to date.....

Seriously it was only a couple of examples of downloads that could make you hit the STM so why should you be punished for using your connection for something you paid for?

Fact is with more and more content online streaming, VOD, you buy a game and have to DOWNLOAD it, etc its really not hard to see that this is a step backwards people buy their broad band because of their usage which is why I think a lot of people are unhappy. I don't download 100gb's every month but I would like to be able to do a big download if I have without getting punished for it on the day.

buckleb
03-04-2012, 12:00
Yeah I download WoW every day just so I can have the files fresh and make sure they are up to date.....

Seriously it was only a couple of examples of downloads that could make you hit the STM so why should you be punished for using your connection for something you paid for?

Fact is with more and more content online streaming, VOD, you buy a game and have to DOWNLOAD it, etc its really not hard to see that this is a step backwards people buy their broad band because of their usage which is why I think a lot of people are unhappy. I don't download 100gb's every month but I would like to be able to do a big download if I have without getting punished for it on the day.

So would I, and how VM implement their STM is a (slightly) different discussion. I agree that it should be more intelligent than the current blunt instrument it is. I suspect though, that it is far easier (not to mention cheaper) to set up an STM system activated by dumb triggers.

As mentioned earlier, the cut in speed by 50% rather than 75% is better, and I can't really think of much that would suffer from 'only' having a 50Mb download speed. I don't know how STM affects other aspects of the service, but I'd imagine that a decrease in ping/jitter quality would not be that noticeable, especially if the rest of the family is HD streaming, uploading to FTP sites, etc.

Chrysalis
03-04-2012, 13:45
Yeah.

Old: http://www.virginmedia.com/images/tm-table-fu-large.jpg

You just go down to 50% speed instead of 75% speed when STM'd.

I'm sure someone said the threshold's were changing too. I Must have misunderstood.

thanks for confirming.

so basically the new limits for the 60 and 100 are not increased in proportion to the speed those guys get less per mbit.

Blairhoyle
03-04-2012, 13:47
I have the 50meg package.

I will be watching the football tonight online in HD does that mean once it hits 5000MB my video is going to start stuttering etc?!

carlwaring
03-04-2012, 13:50
As HD only requires something like 2.5mb, then no, probably not :)

crazyronnie
03-04-2012, 13:55
HD streaming uses more than that.

Netflix HD requires 5Mb for 720p streaming and 8Mb for 1080p.

Blairhoyle
03-04-2012, 13:57
seriously this internet talk does my brain in.

for the first few months with Virgin I couldn't have been happier, that has started eroding away.

carlwaring
03-04-2012, 13:57
HD streaming uses more than that.

Netflix HD requires 5Mb for 720p streaming and 8Mb for 1080p.

Oh, okay. Sorry. Thought I'd read that figure somewhere. Okay. Well, I don't think the 50 meg services is reduced to <10 is it?

Blairhoyle
03-04-2012, 14:03
Oh, okay. Sorry. Thought I'd read that figure somewhere. Okay. Well, I don't think the 50 meg services is reduced to <10 is it?


I take it that it only get reduced if you go over your traffic management allowance?

from 4pm-9pm I take it all speeds are lowered?

BenMcr
03-04-2012, 14:06
I take it that it only get reduced if you go over your traffic management allowance?Yes

from 4pm-9pm I take it all speeds are lowered?Yes but 50Mbit gets reduced to 25Mbit - still enough for two Netflix HD streams plus an SD one

Blairhoyle
03-04-2012, 14:11
Ben,

so not only are we getting it reduced if we meet the allowance we also get our speeds lowered even if we DON'T reach the allowance cap?

BenMcr
03-04-2012, 14:16
Ben,

so not only are we getting it reduced if we meet the allowance we also get our speeds lowered even if we DON'T reach the allowance cap?No, I'm saying that is what you get reduced by WHEN you hit the trigger. I misread your post - you only get reduced if you hit the trigger, otherwise you continue with the full headline speed

Blairhoyle
03-04-2012, 14:20
No, I'm saying that is what you get reduced by WHEN you hit the trigger. I misread your post - you only get reduced if you hit the trigger, otherwise you continue with the full headline speed

so I should be fine watching my HD video online at peak hours then?

Last night I hit a major issue which I believe may have been caused by 3 downloads that were taking place at the same time which were files of 4GB, 3GB and 500MB in size. Should be noted that I cancelled the 4GB one before it was finished.

only after 9pm did I manage to watch my HD link.

I won't be downloading anything tonight when I'm watching my HD link, should I get the buffering and stuttering then I may have to review my contract with Virgin altogether.

carlwaring
03-04-2012, 14:27
so I should be fine watching my HD video online at peak hours then?
If you don't hit the trigger limit, yes.

crazyronnie
03-04-2012, 15:08
yep

Lee
03-04-2012, 18:54
Can someone tell me how to monitor how much my connection has downloaded using standard VM supplied equipment?

Of course I mean multiple devices, including Sky Anytime+, Xbox, Smartphones, PC(s), Tablet, Mac.

Seems to be a basic requirement, but from what I know VM supply no way of monitoring ones usage?

sniper007
03-04-2012, 19:25
Can someone tell me how to monitor how much my connection has downloaded using standard VM supplied equipment?

Of course I mean multiple devices, including Sky Anytime+, Xbox, Smartphones, PC(s), Tablet, Mac.

Seems to be a basic requirement, but from what I know VM supply no way of monitoring ones usage?

The only way of doing that that I can think of, is running your own router with sufficient logging (such as a router running DDWRT and/or Tomato) which would be able to capture ALL traffic flowing through it to ALL your devices. Otherwise run everything through another PC/piece of hardware that can capture such information like a PC built as a gateway/firewall etc.

How do other people do this?

hjf288
03-04-2012, 19:27
Through a router running tomato...

Sirius
03-04-2012, 20:16
If the superhub was as super as they say it is it would let you monitor your usage just like most routers these days

craigj2k12
03-04-2012, 22:18
the superhub running in router mode does monitor useage, just not well, it doesnt pick up some things like some wireless phones, and stunts others

Blairhoyle
03-04-2012, 22:21
right troops I have an issue here.

I have just done a speedtest on thinkbroadband that came back with a downspeed of 2Mb.

I then started streaming my HD video and there is no problems, no buffering no stammering on the link.

is that test site reliable?

craigj2k12
03-04-2012, 22:24
peering to thinkbroadband is red hot from VM connections, the site is reliable but VM are not

Blairhoyle
03-04-2012, 22:29
peering to thinkbroadband is red hot from VM connections, the site is reliable but VM are not

so what you are saying is that the speed results that the website is getting from VM are not reliable?

Martin_D
03-04-2012, 22:57
how much is this in Gigabits

23312

kwikbreaks
03-04-2012, 23:17
A GB is 1024 MB so roughly speaking divide those numbers by 1000 to get GB.
So (in round numbers) last month was about 2GB a day on average and 60GB for the month

General Maximus
03-04-2012, 23:19
7gb.

1000k = 1mb
1000mb = 1gb (in your case 7000mb = 7gb)
1000gb = 1tb
1000tb = 1pb

kwikbreaks
03-04-2012, 23:20
so what you are saying is that the speed results that the website is getting from VM are not reliable?
My experience with TBB when I was on 50Mbps was that it never read much over 30Mbps for me and that was borne out by checking what my Tomato router was measuring. I never did get to the bottom of it because speedtest.net alsway showed 50Mbps (or at least did until (I'm guessing here) VM sold 100Mbps to a torrent freak then I was lucky to get 20Mbps anywhere so I downgraded to 10Mbps).

Martin_D
03-04-2012, 23:30
so is 7gb a day ok ?

kwikbreaks
03-04-2012, 23:41
OK for what? VM won't moan about it if that's what you mean. Your previous months average was 2GB per day.

broadbandking
04-04-2012, 10:10
so is 7gb a day ok ?

Is around 210Gb a month which isn't a massive amount, as long as it legal downloads then your fine.

peanut
04-04-2012, 12:06
As it's a major change to VM broadband services, shouldn't this get a news article of it own subject on the main page? Would be handy as no one got any warning about it.

Risco
05-04-2012, 20:49
As it's a major change to VM broadband services, shouldn't this get a news article of it own subject on the main page? Would be handy as no one got any warning about it.

Unfortunately it seems that nobody knows what the news section should be for around here! I mentioned a few months ago about this, the moderators should really be moving threads such as these to the right sections. In fact this should be stickied here, and duplicated in the news section.

General Maximus
05-04-2012, 20:58
yeah that is a good point, enough people ask questions about traffic management and we seem to have a neverending debate over it

Ken Jude
05-04-2012, 22:16
I believe the STM rates are still being applied at cutting back by 75%, at least here in Welwyn Garden City.

I've just been watching the baseball for 3 hours. Just done a Speedtest.net test and I'm running at 7.92 Mbps which is pretty much spot on 25% of what I usually obtain when it's running at full speed on my XL30 (to be doubled to 60) connection.

So what happened to the 50% reduction?!

cook1984
05-04-2012, 22:44
I'm still getting hammered after just an hour of TV. iPlayer becomes unusable. God I hate VM and their lies.

Ken Jude
05-04-2012, 23:04
I believe the STM rates are still being applied at cutting back by 75%, at least here in Welwyn Garden City.

I've just been watching the baseball for 3 hours. Just done a Speedtest.net test and I'm running at 7.92 Mbps which is pretty much spot on 25% of what I usually obtain when it's running at full speed on my XL30 (to be doubled to 60) connection.

So what happened to the 50% reduction?!

Just been speaking to Calum at the helpdesk who works in this country. Must remember to buy a Euromillions ticket tomorrow as the stars are clearly aligned in my favour! He spoke to his second line.

Apparently the old STM rates are still in force until your area has been doubled. So even though the table on the website says XL30 is cut by 50% from April 2nd, in fact it only goes to 50% once you have been doubled to XL60. Until then, XL30 remains at 75%.

Accepting the above, it makes the table they published complete B/S really. They are masters at digging holes for themselves.

carlwaring
05-04-2012, 23:23
God I hate VM and their lies.
Such as? (Specifically, in this context.)

Chrysalis
06-04-2012, 00:42
VM stated on their forums these arent rolled out yet except in a few areas but will be over coming weeks.

babis3g
06-04-2012, 01:57
I believe the STM rates are still being applied at cutting back by 75%, at least here in Welwyn Garden City.

I've just been watching the baseball for 3 hours. Just done a Speedtest.net test and I'm running at 7.92 Mbps which is pretty much spot on 25% of what I usually obtain when it's running at full speed on my XL30 (to be doubled to 60) connection.

So what happened to the 50% reduction?!

when i had my new virgin instillation with tv before a month ... i asked the engineer if will reduce the speed by watching tv all day
he said to me NO ..dont worry because tv use different frequencies

i dont have the time to stay all day with TV so i am surprising reading that watching tv will slow down the broaband

Jayster
06-04-2012, 03:25
when i had my new virgin instillation with tv before a month ... i asked the engineer if will reduce the speed by watching tv all day
he said to me NO ..dont worry because tv use different frequencies

i dont have the time to stay all day with TV so i am surprising reading that watching tv will slow down the broaband

I believe they where talking about watching it online via their broadband connection.

7031
06-04-2012, 06:16
I'll be interested to see how this pans out. My initial reaction admittedly wasn't too positive as I had signed up around this time last year assuming that since I was on the 50Mbps tier, I wouldn't have to worry about being traffic managed. I know, they traffic manage the upstream but that's not too important to me - I love having a fast upstream but to be honest I can't see how you'd hit the upstream caps without seeding a ton of torrents.

Before you accuse me of needing a lot of downstream bandwidth for torrenting illegal content - that's actually not the case. It's more that I use Steam and believe it or not actually do download a lot of Linux ISOs heh.

I probably download more than my fair share, although admittedly I'm more concerned with what other people in my house will download rather than what I do. For the most part I just browse forums, sit logged into WHM on however many boxes and stare at SSH screens running top. That and downloading full account backups can take a while - I don't have to do it often but it does seem to always be the case that the one time I'll need to for whatever reason I'll find that the person in question has a 20GB account.

To be honest, I'm not really that bothered about the 5PM to 9PM management or whichever time it was - it's more the daytime management - why is this necessary? My only guess is that it's for the sake of business customers. I can't imagine that many people torrent etc during the day. Obviously between 6PM and 9PM (and possibly until 12PM) you'll have a lot of people hammering away at their connections but I find it hard to imagine that the utilisation is *that* high during the day. In fact, most of the complaints on the Virgin Media forums seem to be about load during evenings. That said, for all I know they may have just found that usage patterns have changed a lot with the new speed doubling.

Regardless of the traffic management though, I'd imagine that most people are still getting much better speeds than what they would otherwise get with ADSL. That said, BT Infinity is available in my area, and admittedly this does make BT Infinity look a bit more appealing to me when my contract expires, because looking at what they offer well, a 20Mbps upload is very appealing to me, as well as a very solid 80Mbps download (without STM I presume?).

Sorry for this rant - I've almost just been thinking out my views on this as I write this. Out of curiosity, are many people on here actually upset about it? I'd imagine the main customers who would be peeved would be the customers on 100Mbps, as they would now be traffic managed once this is rolled out. I was quite upset when I first read this, but then the thought hit me that I'm still getting a minimum of 50Mbps regardless.

Sirius
06-04-2012, 08:49
I believe they where talking about watching it online via their broadband connection.

Indeed.

General Maximus
06-04-2012, 09:25
Indeed.

As am I

Ken Jude
06-04-2012, 12:01
I believe they where talking about watching it online via their broadband connection.

Yes, I was watching via MLBTV's online service. Apologies for any confusion.

Chrysalis
06-04-2012, 12:34
7031 casual torrenters may not do so much in the day however I expect the heaviest torrenters not only will be during the day but they will be dusk as well 24/7, also I have seen some torrenters turn on their pc, start utorrent or whatever app, goto work, then turn the torrent off again when they back from work so in that case its during the day. So to me the daytime management is to match daytime business peak time and the evening hours is to match residential peak time. Although judging by my level of congestion in my area its clear VM gets more use in the evenings so thats when their real peak time is and the daytime is a lesser peak time. eg. at the weekends daytime is significantly more congested than weekday daytime.

Ken Jude
06-04-2012, 13:09
Out of curiosity, are many people on here actually upset about it?
Until the changes have happened, yes. Thereafter, I can live with it.

At the moment watching one baseball match in the 6pm start time seems to be enough to get me STMd 2.5 hours into the match and that's frustrating because the MLB service allows me to have two games running at the same time on different devices. On a 30Mbps service that should be no problem and still leave way more than enough headroom for someone else to watch iPlayer and do plenty of web-browsing and listen to Spotify and more besides.

Getting cut from 30Mbps to 7.5Mbps just covers having two games running with not a huge amount of room for anything else. And of course being STMd impacts for 5 hours so goes right through the duration of the 9pm and later starts. So they aren't giving me the unlimited service they sell me in my opinion (yes I know the small print is in there, but I don't consider running a streaming service I'm paying for to the limit the service allows to be unreasonable use of my connection).

Once the speeds are doubled and the STM cut reduced to 50% I can live with my connection being cut to 30Mbps, which will still leave me with plenty of room to do what I need to do. As long as the methodolgy for cutting the speed doesn't impact on the streaming performance.

7031
06-04-2012, 19:57
Just to clarify - I wrote that first post while sleep deprived.

@Chrysalis: Hmm yes. I just say that since I've noticed every time someone is complaining about issues caused by high contention it tends to be during the peak time bracket. That said, it's important that VM can deliver a high quality service to business customers. That said, I did read somewhere on these forums a few days back that VM isn't doing new business installations. Would this not imply that VM is not too interested in providing a business service currently?

@Ken Jude: Pretty much the same here actually.

I'm a bit annoyed about being traffic managed while on 50Mbps as when I signed up it was on the understanding that I would not be STMd since I was on 50Mbps. That said, I won't be complaining once the speed doubling is complete as I'd be getting the same speeds as I would get anyway as a minimum. That and considering I came from a 13Mbps ADSL line pretty much anything VM could offer me would be faster.

telfordcable
06-04-2012, 21:28
Virgin Media should change the speed eg the minimum speed during STM & non STM on their site for more clearer!

Like this

Virgin Media Broadband:

Up To 15Mb (STM) Up To 30Mb (9pm to 10am & 3pm to 4pm 7 days a week with no limit of download per month)
Up To 30Mb (STM) Up To 60Mb (9pm to 10am & 3pm to 4pm 7 days a week with no limit of download per month)
Up To 50Mb (STM) Up To 100Mb (9pm to 10am & 3pm to 4pm 7 days a week with no limit of download per month)

General Maximus
07-04-2012, 22:49
somewhere in this thread someone said that they were being hit with the pre-upgrade stm limits (30 instead of 60 i think) and that customer services told them that would be the case until the upgrades are completed. That got me thinking that if that was being applied to all tiers, 100mbit would still be stm free.

Before anyone starts moaning their ass off normally I am very good and leave all my mass uploading and downloading for overnight but I deliberately uploaded as much as I could this evening as a test and I havent been hit by the stm. The limit is 12gb and I know I have uploaded more than 14gb this evening.

Tomorrow I'll test the download limits. It will only take me 28 mins to hit the limit at full speed if it is in effect.

Chrysalis
07-04-2012, 23:21
VM stated the STM will be rolled out prior to the speed upgrades, they posted a list of areas on their forums been activated this weekend.

SnoopZ
08-04-2012, 01:30
VM stated the STM will be rolled out prior to the speed upgrades, they posted a list of areas on their forums been activated this weekend.

Can't find the list do you have a link to it please?

craigj2k12
08-04-2012, 02:36
http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/Fibre-optic-broadband-cable/Traffic-Management-Changes-Questions-Discussion-and-Feedback/m-p/1132719#M123721

SnoopZ
08-04-2012, 11:33
http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/Fibre-optic-broadband-cable/Traffic-Management-Changes-Questions-Discussion-and-Feedback/m-p/1132719#M123721

Thanks, i will check later as i am 200 miles from home right now.

General Maximus
08-04-2012, 11:41
Thanks, i will check later as i am 200 miles from home right now.

let me know what page it is on because I couldnt be arsed to trawl through all 50 of them :)

kwikbreaks
08-04-2012, 12:17
It's the Mark Wilkin post on the page the link goes to (#48). To see the list you need to click on "spoiler".

To save you the effort here it is ...

acto-cmts-01
acto-cmts-02
acto-cmts-03
acto-cmts-04
aztw-cmts-22
aztw-cmts-23
aztw-cmts-24
aztw-cmts-25
bagu-cmts-10
basl-cmts-09
basl-cmts-10
belf-cmts-09
bexl-cmts-07
bmly-cmts-08
bmly-cmts-09
bolt-cmts-13
bolt-cmts-14
bour-cmts-05
brad-cmts-18
brad-cmts-19
brad-cmts-20
brig-cmts-15
brig-cmts-16
brig-cmts-17
bsfd-cmts-07
camd-cmts-13
camd-cmts-14
cmbg-cmts-14
cmbg-cmts-15
cosh-cmts-11
cosh-cmts-12
cove-cmts-11
cove-cmts-12
craw-cmts-06
croy-cmts-17
croy-cmts-18
croy-cmts-19
croy-cmts-20
dudl-cmts-09
dudl-cmts-10
dudl-cmts-11
dund-cmts-11
dund-cmts-12
dund-cmts-13
finc-cmts-11
finc-cmts-12
finc-cmts-13
finc-cmts-14
gate-cmts-09
gate-cmts-10
gill-cmts-14
gill-cmts-15
gill-cmts-16
grth-cmts-08
harb-cmts-08
harb-cmts-09
hart-cmts-09
haye-cmts-15
haye-cmts-16
haye-cmts-17
haye-cmts-18
hudd-cmts-09
hudd-cmts-10
ipsw-cmts-01
ipsw-cmts-02
king-cmts-09
king-cmts-10
lee2-cmts-10
lewi-cmts-13
lewi-cmts-14
lewi-cmts-15
lewi-cmts-16
lewi-cmts-17
linc-cmts-11
linl-cmts-07
live-cmts-19
live-cmts-20
live-cmts-21
live-cmts-22
live-cmts-23
live-cmts-24
lutn-cmts-10
lutn-cmts-11
maid-cmts-05
mfld-cmts-14
mfld-cmts-15
midd-cmts-15
midd-cmts-16
newc-cmts-13
newc-cmts-14
newc-cmts-15
newt-cmts-29
newt-cmts-30
newt-cmts-31
newt-cmts-32
nfds-cmts-13
nfds-cmts-14
nmal-cmts-16
nmal-cmts-17
nmal-cmts-18
nrwh-cmts-09
oldh-cmts-09
pete-cmts-09
pool-cmts-12
pool-cmts-13
rdng-cmts-20
rdng-cmts-21
rdng-cmts-22
rdng-cmts-23
salf-cmts-05
seac-cmts-19
seac-cmts-20
seac-cmts-21
seve-cmts-18
seve-cmts-19
seve-cmts-20
seve-cmts-21
shef-cmts-10
shef-cmts-11
shep-cmts-11
slam-cmts-05
slam-cmts-06
slou-cmts-01
slou-cmts-02
smal-cmts-11
smal-cmts-12
soli-cmts-05
stkn-cmts-13
stkn-cmts-14
stok-cmts-15
stok-cmts-16
uddi-cmts-19
uddi-cmts-20
uddi-cmts-21
wals-cmts-09
wals-cmts-10
walt-cmts-12
walt-cmts-13
walt-cmts-14
walt-cmts-15
warr-cmts-05
warr-cmts-06
watf-cmts-08
watf-cmts-09
watf-cmts-10
wiga-cmts-11
wiga-cmts-12
wolv-cmts-14
wolv-cmts-15

SnoopZ
08-04-2012, 14:03
let me know what page it is on because I couldnt be arsed to trawl through all 50 of them :)

This post from Craig.

http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/Fibre-optic-broadband-cable/Traffic-Management-Changes-Questions-Discussion-and-Feedback/m-p/1132719#M123721

I was thinking this was the double speed upgrade so not sure if that is included?

Chrysalis
08-04-2012, 15:47
no its the STM changes.

PowerUser
08-04-2012, 18:56
It's a good thing then that Virgin aren't a major Supercar Manufacturer, They would sell you the car, But told you that you were only allowed to drive it for 3 hours a week.

If the infrastucture is so poor that 10% of its members can't be heavy users, Then they shouldn't be boasting and bringing out higher speeds.

It's a real shame they have the only exclusive fibre optic network, I'm sure if other companies controlled fibre optic network and rebranded it, they would offer much better deals.

carlwaring
08-04-2012, 20:54
It's a good thing then that Virgin aren't a major Supercar Manufacturer, They would sell you the car, But told you that you were only allowed to drive it for 3 hours a week....
...at 70mph. The rest of the week you'd be limited to 50mph.

If you're going to make an analogy, at least get it right :D


If the infrastucture is so poor that 10% of its members can't be heavy users, Then they shouldn't be boasting and bringing out higher speeds.
Just for interest, the advertising rules state that any headline speed must be achievable by only 10% of users. Well, VM's headline speeds are constantly achieved by 66% (http://shop.virginmedia.com/broadband/about-virgin-broadband/speed-matters.html) of it's users. Just saying :)

It's a real shame they have the only exclusive fibre optic network, I'm sure if other companies controlled fibre optic network and rebranded it, they would offer much better deals.
Complete and utter speculation and therefore not worth con

PowerUser
08-04-2012, 21:14
...at 70mph. The rest of the week you'd be limited to 50mph.

If you're going to make an analogy, at least get it right :D

That is your analogy not mine, It's a matter of opinion, Ever heard of It!!
Stop being so arragant as to thinking your right.
Limitation can be as harmful as not at all.



Just for interest, the advertising rules state that any headline speed must be achievable by only 10% of users. Well, VM's headline speeds are constantly achieved by 66% (http://shop.virginmedia.com/broadband/about-virgin-broadband/speed-matters.html) of it's users. Just saying :)


Complete and utter speculation and therefore not worth con

Oh Dear!!...

Chrysalis
08-04-2012, 21:18
Some of the other proposals the ASA had but turned down were.

To require 50% of users able to reach speed.
To use a typical speed range.

I think given by adsl stats I seen on another forum ended up using 10% because its conveniantly close to 16meg on adsl2+ and so looks clear to me this 10% was done with the cooperation of the isp's. Making it a very easy win for VM since they dont worry about sync speeds they will just need 10% of areas to be uncongested as well as 10% of users not affected by STM.

carlwaring
08-04-2012, 23:15
That is your analogy not mine...
Well it was based on your analogy but it was factually inaccurate as you are not permanently limited to a slower speed.

It's a matter of opinion, Ever heard of It!!
If you based your opinions base on incorrect fact then your opinion is suspect.

Stop being so arragant as to thinking your right.
In this case, though, I am right.

Limitation can be as harmful as not at all.
:confused: Is that some Chinese proverb or something?

---------- Post added at 22:15 ---------- Previous post was at 22:10 ----------

Some of the other proposals the ASA had but turned down were.

To require 50% of users able to reach speed.
That would have been my choice and would be a far better indicator.

I think given by adsl stats I seen on another forum ended up using 10% because its conveniantly close to 16meg on adsl2+ and so looks clear to me this 10% was done with the cooperation of the isp's.
A sound theory, Mr Holmes :p

Making it a very easy win for VM since they dont worry about sync speeds they will just need 10% of areas to be uncongested as well as 10% of users not affected by STM.
Well, like I said, right now officially 66% of users get VM's headline speed; and that's with congestion and STM. (As far as we know!)

broadbandking
09-04-2012, 07:54
It's a good thing then that Virgin aren't a major Supercar Manufacturer, They would sell you the car, But told you that you were only allowed to drive it for 3 hours a week.

If the infrastucture is so poor that 10% of its members can't be heavy users, Then they shouldn't be boasting and bringing out higher speeds.

It's a real shame they have the only exclusive fibre optic network, I'm sure if other companies controlled fibre optic network and rebranded it, they would offer much better deals.

I take it you don't like VM or the new STM.

carlwaring
09-04-2012, 09:29
Clearly not. Nor does he do analogies very well; and seems to like making up things that he cannot possibly back up with facts.

So far I have had two people tell me to "get my analogy right" yet not only was it not my analogy in the first place. neither has offered me any clue as to what was wrong with it in the first place. So they can't back-up their own arguments either!

ETA:
Actually, I just noticed the "flaw", but it's probably not the one the OP was thinking of. His analogy is completely wrong from the outset!

If the analogy was right, it would be this.

"It's a good thing then that Virgin aren't a major Supercar Manufacturer they would sell you the car but tell you that, whilst you can drive it at its top speed most of the time if, at certain times, you travel at full speed for more than a certain amount of time, you will then be limited to 50mph for the next five hours. The rest of the week you'd be limited to 50mph."

There. Glad I got that off my mind :)

kwikbreaks
09-04-2012, 09:51
How did I not spot that?! :o:It would seem that contrary to your obvious opinion of yourself you are not actually perfect.

Rexz
09-04-2012, 09:55
Clearly not. Nor does he do analogies very well; and seems to like making up things that he cannot possibly back up with facts.

So far I have had two people tell me to "get my analogy right" yet not only was it not my analogy in the first place. neither has offered me any clue as to what was wrong with it in the first place. So they can't back-up their own arguments either!

ETA:
Actually, I just noticed the "flaw", but it's probably not the one the OP was thinking of. I put the figures the wrong way round! How did I not spot that?! :o:

Why don't you get back to your web browsing and email reading and leave the real downloading to us. Clearly through this thread you have gone on and on how you think the traffic management is fine and everyone should embrace it, and you seem the first to attack anyone that should disagree with it or you. Of course it won't affect you because you obviously don't utilise your connection. I'm sure VM will have a favourite little spot for you in their customer database, right under MUG...

carlwaring
09-04-2012, 10:08
It would seem that contrary to your obvious opinion of yourself you are not actually perfect.
Actually, I have never suspected for a second that I am.

---------- Post added at 09:08 ---------- Previous post was at 08:57 ----------

Why don't you get back to your web browsing and email reading and leave the real downloading to us. Clearly through this thread you have gone on and on how you think the traffic management is fine and everyone should embrace it...
Of course, you couldn't be more wrong if you tried. I have never ever wrote anywhere that I "think the traffic management is fine and everyone should embrace it". I don't like STM and I don't like that VM use it. I do, however, understand and accept the reasons for its use. Unlike, say, you for example.

.. and you seem the first to attack anyone that should disagree with it or you.
Again. Completely and utterly incorrect. I am not "the first" to do anything but I certainly don't see why we should put up with the complete nonsense that some people seem to come out with against VM just for putting measures in places that they don't like. Bad analogies, for example. Furthermore, if I didn't like people disagreeing with me I wouldn't spend so much time posting on a public forum, would I? :rolleyes:

Of course it won't affect you because you obviously don't utilise your connection.
I am currently "utilising my connection" to correct you. No surprise you have a problem with that :D

I'm sure VM will have a favourite little spot for you in their customer database, right under MUG...
At least I don't insult people.

lucid
10-04-2012, 14:31
I spent about an hour on the phone enquiring about this and tbh the staff hadn't a clue in terms of understanding it or how the present or future management system was implemented.

All i wanted to know were the times

On the new page it says the following: for example on XL30 (not upgraded yet):

for DL only (not p2p) it seems the traffic management is from 10am - 3pm
then 4pm - 9pm

So does that mean there is no limit counted between 3pm and 4pm because one could easily on a 30meg connection DL 9GB.

And is there no management after 9pm?

The reason i ask is CS insisted it was all active until midnight, even though i thought this was just p2p filesharing. ( i don't do that so no real concern for me).

Ken Jude
10-04-2012, 15:32
On the new page it says the following: for example on XL30 (not upgraded yet):

for DL only (not p2p) it seems the traffic management is from 10am - 3pm
then 4pm - 9pm

So does that mean there is no limit counted between 3pm and 4pm because one could easily on a 30meg connection DL 9GB.

And is there no management after 9pm?



Correct, you can have as many gigs incoming between 3pm and 4pm as you like (* but see the end for a rider to that comment). And there is no management after 9pm. Note that it's total traffic that counts towards the limit between 10am-3pm and 4pm-9pm, the source is irrelevent. So if you are streaming HD video from a sports service (e.g. baseball premium service) you WILL be STMd after less than three hours viewing on the XL30 service as your data will go over 3.5Gigs. So you are punished exactly the same as any torrent users who go over 3.5Gigs in the same period.

What there still is after 9pm is traffic shaping - all traffic incoming to the Virgin network is analysed to see whether it comes from "acceptable" sources like general web browsing, mail, streaming from iPlayer and other media sources etc. or whether it comes from "less acceptable" sources such as torrents, newsgroups and presumably whatever file download sites are the flavour of the month after the last lot were closed down. (Obviously quotes as it's my quick and dirty definition)

And traffic from the latter is still shaped up til midnight I believe from a posting Ben made a while ago. Which means they constrain how much of that traffic is allowed and share it around (as I understand it). And have apparently been doing so more aggressively since the new traffic policy came in on 2nd April. They don't constrain web browsing, iPlayer and the like under that traffic shsaping (but as above, it will count towards your data use in peak periods).

* But note that some people have indicated they have been TM'd for data downloaded between 3pm and 4pm, so it's not entirely clear whether the practice matches what they've published.

lucid
10-04-2012, 16:22
Thank you for yr reply it is confusing as i was told they do manage between 3 and 4 but they couldn't explain the hours gap, as well as saying all traffic was managed until midnight.

Well i got my speed reduced about 10pm after downloading large files needed for adobe premier elements so i don't believe what they publish is what is really happening.

horrorwood
10-04-2012, 16:38
This post from Craig.

http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/Fibre-optic-broadband-cable/Traffic-Management-Changes-Questions-Discussion-and-Feedback/m-p/1132719#M123721

I was thinking this was the double speed upgrade so not sure if that is included?

Hmmm, I am on "shep-cmts-11" I think?! The tools site states "cpc16-shep11-2-0-custxxx.8-3.cable.virginmedia.com"

Yet I am still on 10mb and have not had the free speed upgrade, how does the new STM effect me?

Chrysalis
10-04-2012, 18:19
the STM is not the same time as the speed upgrade.

PowerUser
13-04-2012, 20:23
In this case, though, I am right.
:confused: Is that some Chinese proverb or something)

Do you somehow think your words are gospel or something, get over yourself for goodness sake, dear oh dear..

General Maximus
13-04-2012, 20:38
Thank you for yr reply it is confusing as i was told they do manage between 3 and 4 but they couldn't explain the hours gap, as well as saying all traffic was managed until midnight.

I am off on Wednesday so I'll give it a good blast between 1500-1600. I should be able to download 40gb easily in an hour and I'll see if stm kicks in.



Do you somehow think your words are gospel or something, get over yourself for goodness sake, dear oh dear..

dont start him off again :no:

carlwaring
13-04-2012, 21:00
Do you somehow think your words are gospel or something...
No, but why shy away from saying so when you know you're right about something :confused: I am, of course, as quick to admit to being wrong when I am :)

craigj2k12
13-04-2012, 23:16
No, but why shy away from saying so when you know you're right about something :confused: I am, of course, as quick to admit to being wrong when I am :)

"quick" - are you using VMs definition?

carlwaring
13-04-2012, 23:38
See. Here we go again :( Less of the personal attacks and I won't have to waste time posting in my own defence.

I'm quicker than other people are to acknowledge when I'm right :rolleyes:

craigj2k12
14-04-2012, 00:01
See. Here we go again :( Less of the personal attacks and I won't have to waste time posting in my own defence.

it was more of a joke, if it was a dig at anyone it was more at VM ;)

carlwaring
14-04-2012, 00:37
Fair enough, Craig. It's difficult to tell sometimes :)

craigj2k12
14-04-2012, 02:14
http://blog.mpl.org/nowatmpl/Lend%20a%20Hand2.jpg

tomtank62
17-04-2012, 01:32
Just one dam minute these measure affect those who

Stream video
Stream Music
Use Spotify
Download from Origin
Download from Steam
Stream from Iplayer
Stream from Netflixs
Stream from Lovefilms
Stream from ITV player
Upload to my FTP
Backup to Cloud including VM's own backup system that they give to every user who wants it.
Upload to my website
Play online gaming
Be a server for an online game
Voip calls
Stream tv to my Ipad when away from home


The list is longer and i am sure others could add to that

When you have a family who use the above ALL the time STM becomes the biggest pain in the arse of any ISP



So what is this normal activity you talk about

I find all this very confusing. So if I watch tv programmes on my pc then at some time STM might kick in and slow down my connection? I assume this doesn't apply if I watch catch-up tv?
My son plays COD on his PS3 online. Would anyone be able to give me any idea of how much traffic this would involve and how long he could play before speed was affected? If he is playing online while I watch a tv programme on my pc will we hit limits sooner?

carlwaring
17-04-2012, 10:28
..if I watch tv programmes on my pc then at some time STM might kick in and slow down my connection?
Yes.
I assume this doesn't apply if I watch catch-up tv?
Via VM's TV service? No.

Can't answer your other question. I'm sure someone will though :)

Ken Jude
17-04-2012, 11:36
I don't think game playing transfers huge amounts of data does it? All the dawing of landscapes is handled by the machine locally, it's only data relating to changes of position of objects and activities that are transmitted.

At least, that's what I would assume.

I'm starting to get really irritated by the STM now. Anyone know if it's possible to get an exact date of when the doubling will happen in an area and when the switch to the new STM limits will happen?

Chrysalis
17-04-2012, 14:28
I assume the only way is to keep checking on the VM forums for updates.

Jelly
17-04-2012, 16:32
I find all this very confusing. So if I watch tv programmes on my pc then at some time STM might kick in and slow down my connection? I assume this doesn't apply if I watch catch-up tv?
My son plays COD on his PS3 online. Would anyone be able to give me any idea of how much traffic this would involve and how long he could play before speed was affected? If he is playing online while I watch a tv programme on my pc will we hit limits sooner?

playing games online uses a mostly neglegible amount of traffic, to the point that its not worth worrying about; I would guess at most 100mb per hour.

Chrysalis
17-04-2012, 18:51
yeah simply downloading at high speeds will use more upload traffic than gaming.

even on 30mbit when I download at full pelt I am using close to a mbit/sec of upstream traffic on acks.

So 100mbit users will be using close to 3meg/sec of upstream traffic just downloading.

Just done a test now, congestion stopping me getting full speed but at 3.5mbyte/sec down I am using 122kbyte/sec up so thats about 29mbit down and 1mbit up in acks.

qasdfdsaq
17-04-2012, 19:01
ACKs should only be using about 1.5% of your downstream speed, so less than 1mbps when downloading at 50mbps and less than 2mbs when downloading at 100. Certainly nowhere near the 3% you claim. With SACKs and ACK suppression (which is used on the VM network) actual bandwidth used over DOCSIS will be lower still.

Chrysalis
17-04-2012, 22:50
what are VM doing messing with ack's?

General Maximus
18-04-2012, 00:11
http://www.cedmagazine.com/articles/2006/12/docsis-per-sub-throughput-optimization

I have sort of got the gist of what is happening in principle but the thing which I dont understand is that the acks should be going to the other end of the connection. The remote host or server will be waiting for certain acks to come back so I dont understand how the cmts can block acks 1 and 2 but allow 3 to go through. It obviously works but I just dont understand how. In principle it is a good idea but from a throughput point of view wouldnt it just make more sense to increase the windows sizes and allow more data to be sent before being acknowledged?

Chrysalis
18-04-2012, 00:38
I can only guess that the CMTS still sends normal acks to the other end but its surpressing them on the modem side? According to dumeter I am still sending full acks out (and I do have delayed acks disabled which explains the double ack usage). Although if thie surpression is enabled (we just assuming it is), then I guess the work would be done between the modem and the CMTS, hence dumeter on my pc doesnt see it.

So an average of maybe 1.6mbit/sec used on the 100mbit service whilst downloading then not 3mbit/sec. Which equates to approx 17% of US capacity needed for acks to fully utilise the 4 DS channels. If there is 8 DS channels with 1 US channel then that increases to 34%.

General Maximus
18-04-2012, 10:37
if that is the case then it is a good idea on how to go about reducing traffic on the local segements which are the most congested areas of the network.

Lee
19-04-2012, 11:44
Did anyone ever confirm whether STM is active between 3-4pm? The charts say it isn't but I know I have been STM'd between those times (I tested it) and also there are posts on the VM Help Forums with other people reporting that too.

My guess is VM just messed up the chart as I cant see any point in there being 1 hr of no STM...

BenMcr
19-04-2012, 11:48
It's not active on downstream between 3pm - 4pm but the upstream management starts at 3pm

Lee
19-04-2012, 12:47
It's not active on downstream between 3pm - 4pm but the upstream management starts at 3pm

Thanks Ben, but I'm pretty sure have been STM'd after around 20min of downloading at full speed after 3pm. Others reported this on the VM forums too.

I'll do a test today and check again.

Chrysalis
19-04-2012, 14:49
Ben can you get info on the rollout of this stm?

Mark on the VM forums posted the areas for the first weekend and no news since then yet many people seem to be reporting changes.