Wireless Virgin needs help!

[onlyhuman]

Hi all, im currently have the Virgin Media 10mb service connected to my laptop via ntl modem and also use a Playstation3 with this modem by swapping ethernet cables and everything works great. However id like to make the move to wireless so that use my laptop where i wish instead of being chained down, but i know very little and so was hoping someone here could help me out.

I know there are many variables to take into account but in general should i expect to take a loss in speed by going wireless?

I would like a Hub / Router with the modem built in if possible. Can i just buy any one of these or do i have to use the Superhub from Virgin?

Could i just buy a Superhub myself from ebay to use with my 10mb connection or would this not work?

Any help is much appreiciated.

[MovedGoalPosts]

Son't buy a superhub from ebay. It won't work as it has to be paired to your Cable broadband account by Virgin Media. If you want a cable hub / superhub then it can only be supplied to you direct by VM. Generally that would mean you upgrading your broadband service.

At 10 meg broadband you'll see little if any drop in speed using a wireless connection. even the older "g" wireless is rated at 56mbps, whcih far exceeds the 10mbps of you broadband. Where people see a drop in speed it's usually becuase of some other interference in the wireless signal.

To get wireless, and at the same time stop faffing about with all that cable swapping between laptop PS3 and suchlike, you need to get your self a simple wireless router. Most decent computer shops will stock these. Make sure you get a version suited for cable, not ADSL.

Whether you choose a basic router that runs a "g" wireless, or the faster "n" may depend on what your laptop can support. If your laptop's inbuit wireless is "n" then the extra strength of the "n" signal could be worth it, even though you won't get the speed advantage with your broadband being so slow. Popular router brands are linksys, netgear, buffalo, d-link.

Setup is quite simple. Popwer off the modem, connect the router via the ethernet patch lead (they usually supply on in the box) to your modem, Power up modem and then router. You can now conect your laptop, initially via ethernet to one of the wired ports on the the router, and the instructions should then tell you how to set the wireless on the router, including the security passwords. Then you can go wireless on the laptop, but also leave you PS3 connected wired so yo get the best of all worlds.

[Sephiroth]

There is a better (IMO) alternative to wireless. That is to use a Homeplug/powerline solution. You plug these gizmos into the mains around the house and plug the ethernet cable from your cable modem or router into the gizmo.

You plug an ethernet cable into the gizmo in another room and then to the laptop or PS3. In this way you avoid the variabilities of wireless.

I use the Devolo AV 200+ which would set you right for any future 30/50/100 meg upgrade you might eventually contemplate.#


Hope that helps.

[onlyhuman]

Thanks Rob, very useful info and easy to understand. :)

A few more questions if you dont mind.

Would i be able to use a 3rd party cable modem/router (all in one) with my 10mb or would i still need to be going through my ntl modem?

Ive checked my laptop and its wireless is g, but most routers are listed as being n so will n routers still work ok with g?

I see the Virgin Superhub seems to have a bad rep, so if i was to decide to upgrade to 30mb and was having problems would i be able to buy my own 3rd party cable modem/router or is the Superhub the only option here?

Thanks again for helping.

[Nopanic]

The Superhub is the only option for 30+ but it will have a modem only modem soon, so you can plug a router into it .. Although you can do that now, its not great ..

[MovedGoalPosts]

The device connected to the cable broadband has to be supplied through Virgin Media. So that means the ntl modem, or a rep-olacement hub from Virgin Media. You can't connect third party kit direct to the cable.

A few people, but by no means all of them, have issues with the Superhub. For me, the wireless part of it has been far more stable than my old system of modem + router. So the universal "avoid the superhub" approach spouted by many on this forum does, at least to me, appera unjustified.

N routers are backwrds compatible with g. They will just serve the wireless at the lowere speed.

I've never experience powerline/homeplug, but you will still need to add a router into the network to get is to dela with more than one connection concurrently. And it's a wired system, so you loose that little flexibility of mobility with the laptop.

[Sephiroth]

The SupeHub will eventually be got right and the early firmware R30 reports from users are encouraging.

But it is worth a little reseacrh. If your 10 meg is always on the money at peak times, it might mean that you're on the "legacy network" which may have been deserted for 30/30 by a lot of customers. The 30 meg service is on the "overlay network" and might thus be heavily utilised. So here's my advice:

1/
Ask VM to tell you how many users there are on your active node, split by legacy and overlay. They'll um and er but you're entitled to know what you can expect if you move up a tier and pay more money. It won't be easy to get this information, but correspondence with the CEO's office would get that sorted.

2/
You might not want to go to the trouble of putting VM on a reasonable spot that they'll not want to respect. You will be able to revert to 10 meg if the 30 meg service is unsatisfactory, within 28 days of upgrade. But you'll need to be careful there. If they let you keep the SuperHub (which is most likely), you'll still be on the overlay network and your 10 meg won't do any better than the 30 meg if there are congestion problems. So make sure you keep the old modem and if you switch back, make sure they put ypu on the legacy network.

3/
Wait with the above until SuperHub firmware R30 is public. During your 28 days, make wired network your basis of decision. Wireless brings its own possible challenges that have nothing to do with the broadband.

Although you might think the above is a load of bother and mullarky, it does sum up the causes of problems that you'd wish to avoid and which are well described on the forums.

[Ignitionnet]

The SupeHub will eventually be got right and the early firmware R30 reports from users are encouraging.

But it is worth a little reseacrh. If your 10 meg is always on the money at peak times, it might mean that you're on the "legacy network" which may have been deserted for 30/30 by a lot of customers. The 30 meg service is on the "overlay network" and might thus be heavily utilised. So here's my advice:

1/
Ask VM to tell you how many users there are on your active node, split by legacy and overlay. They'll um and er but you're entitled to know what you can expect if you move up a tier and pay more money. It won't be easy to get this information, but correspondence with the CEO's office would get that sorted.

I rarely disagree with you Seph but is asking the CEO's office, the final escalation point for complaints, for the amount of modems in a service group an appropriate use of their time?

From what I can gather they've an awful lot of people, including no shortage on forums such as this one, using them as first line support without raising any previous cases, they aren't technical and would have to delegate this to someone with the required access.

Asking about network load can be done on the community forum, they're fine divulging that. Individual numbers of devices isn't as relevant as how busy they are.

Not picking on you of course but after a chat with a guy from said CEO's office regarding my now resolved noise issue they are getting an awful lot of excreta thrown at them at the moment.

The guy almost crumbled with gratitude when he said as is obliged 'Any further problems with this you've my details' and I responded saying I considered the issue resolved and any future issues I'd go through the usual channels as it's unfair on other customers to use them as a call centre.

That said of course I can find out these things from a number of people, so I'm probably biased but still, pretty please leave those CEO chaps alone unless it's a genuine complaint that normal channels, call centre, Twitter, community forum, haven't solved. :)

[Sephiroth]

An interesting viewpoint, Igni.

I'd be delighted to be proved wrong that obtaining area usage information by a simple means is anything but squeezing blood from the proverbial stone. But then I'm the saddo that walked the streets of Winnersh and mapped every street cabinet, active node and homes passed per said boxes prior to my decision to upgrade from 20 to 50 meg!

Anyway, I'd have no quarrel with your advice that the OP should initially pose the question to VM on their forum and wait the four days for an answer. Fair point.

[Ignitionnet]

There is a better (IMO) alternative to wireless. That is to use a Homeplug/powerline solution. You plug these gizmos into the mains around the house and plug the ethernet cable from your cable modem or router into the gizmo.

You plug an ethernet cable into the gizmo in another room and then to the laptop or PS3. In this way you avoid the variabilities of wireless.

I use the Devolo AV 200+ which would set you right for any future 30/50/100 meg upgrade you might eventually contemplate.#


Hope that helps.

The AV200+ can't handle 100Mb unless the two are quite literally on the same power strip with no noise at all, and even then it's unlikely. Just as with wireless the speeds they quote are 'line rate' and are nothing like the actual throughput which is going to be 60-70Mbps tops.

The 'gigabit' PLN kit can handle 100Mb if the connection across the line is good however.

http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/lanwan/lanwan-reviews/30888-a-work-in-progress-belkin-gigabit-powerline-hd-starter-kit-reviewed?start=4

---------- Post added at 13:04 ---------- Previous post was at 13:02 ----------

Anyway, I'd have no quarrel with your advice that the OP should initially pose the question to VM on their forum and wait the four days for an answer. Fair point.

If it's not urgent, as anything posted on there shouldn't be ;) it's all good.

A quick post informing that thinking of upgrading to 30Mbps and is there any congestion in the area is fine. The guys working the forums can and have responded to customer queries saying exactly this :)

[Sephiroth]

Are you sure about the Belkin, Igni? I've got both Belkin & Devolo Av 200s and the Belkin couldn't reach 50 meg.

When I a can be arsed I'll do an FTP across the Devolo Homeplug network between two PCs with Gigabit ports. You are most likely right about the 60-70 meg real world tops on the 200 powerlines.

[Ignitionnet]

Are you sure about the Belkin, Igni? I've got both Belkin & Devolo Av 200s and the Belkin couldn't reach 50 meg.

When I a can be arsed I'll do an FTP across the Devolo Homeplug network between two PCs with Gigabit ports. You are most likely right about the 60-70 meg real world tops on the 200 powerlines.

Just the words of the reviews I read, I've no idea from personal experience having not used them.

I'm somewhat reluctant although I do need to consider a solution at some point as planning on moving a machine full time into another room.

[Sephiroth]

But for the OP's 30 meg or even 50 meg, the Powerline solution is worth considering. I recommend it to you too. I've got it over the house. Infinity comes in upstairs and VM downstairs. Directly connected to both modems or routers I get the same download speed (37 & 50 respectively) as across the powerlines.

[Skie]

Powerline networking is entirely dependent on how lucky you are with your houses wiring and the other devices you have plugged into that circuit.

Its like the superhub I guess. For some it will be fine, for others useless. Then there will be the middle ground where it works but isn't particularly great. Modern houses should be fine, as long as they are all on the same ring/circuit. Older houses will have flaky wiring but probably wont have as many rings/circuits to scupper your network with.

You can't beat a bit of Cat5e and some cheap gigabit switches :)

[Sephiroth]

Powerline networking is entirely dependent on how lucky you are with your houses wiring and the other devices you have plugged into that circuit.

Its like the superhub I guess. For some it will be fine, for others useless. Then there will be the middle ground where it works but isn't particularly great. Modern houses should be fine, as long as they are all on the same ring/circuit. Older houses will have flaky wiring but probably wont have as many rings/circuits to scupper your network with.

You can't beat a bit of Cat5e and some cheap gigabit switches :)

Please! You give that (currently) wretched device too much credit.

My Homeplugs are scattered around the house on different rings. As for flaky wiring - I don't buy that. What example can you think of? All houses are on ring based mains and there's nothing more to it than that. Flaky needs definition for this context, methinks. If you mean there are noisy fridges and other unsuppressed device on the ring, then that's not down to flaky wiring.

[onlyhuman]

Thanks for the help guys especially Rob and Sephiroth, ive looked up homeplugs and it is another option to consider. I have a few more questions though.


I currently get 9.6mb download speed off peak and 2-4mb on peak so would this suggest that im not on the legacy network then?

What sort of speed increase should i resonably expect if i were to go for the 30mb, what are those of you on 30mb getting, and with my laptop and PS3 being 802.11g wireless will i get the full speed benifit of 30mb?

If a router / superhub is switched off at the mains will it simply reboot like a modem when switched back on or does it then require setting up all over again? Should it be left on all the time?

Thanks in advance guys, im learning a lot here.

[MovedGoalPosts]

Routers and the superhub should reboot automatically if they are powered up again after being off. They won't normally loose settings.

The download speed you actgually get from broadband, especially on sub 50meg tiers can be subject to traffic shaping, limiting the speed artifially if you go over the thresholds. Plus you can in any case be in an area where there is a lot of traffic at peak, and in turn that congestion can slow things. Certain traffic, P2P, newsgroups can be slowed more than other stuff.

Wirless g is rated at 54mbps. That exceeds 30mbps of the broadband. In theory you see things work just fine. In practice wireless, homeplug indeed anything other than good ethernet cable wiring can see some degradation due to other interference.

[Skie]

Please! You give that (currently) wretched device too much credit.

My Homeplugs are scattered around the house on different rings. As for flaky wiring - I don't buy that. What example can you think of? All houses are on ring based mains and there's nothing more to it than that. Flaky needs definition for this context, methinks. If you mean there are noisy fridges and other unsuppressed device on the ring, then that's not down to flaky wiring.

I mean low quality cable can cause high attenuation or impedance. And if you have circuit breakers that it needs to jump across then you take a hit there.

Powerline networking is great for most people as it does provide a solution to having to run wires everywhere or crappy wireless performance. But it isn't perfect and some people will have issues. Luckily you can buy, try, then return if your house dosent agree with newfangled technology :p

[Sephiroth]

Thanks for the help guys especially Rob and Sephiroth, ive looked up homeplugs and it is another option to consider. I have a few more questions though.


I currently get 9.6mb download speed off peak and 2-4mb on peak so would this suggest that im not on the legacy network then?
[SEPH]: We didn't see your (full) stats. If your downstream modulation is 64QAM, then you're almost certain to be on the legacy network. My point is that if people have deserted that environment to go to a higher tier, then you might have the luxury of low contention. You'd want to go back to that if you hit congestion on the 30 meg overlay network.

What sort of speed increase should i resonably expect if i were to go for the 30mb, what are those of you on 30mb getting, and with my laptop and PS3 being 802.11g wireless will i get the full speed benifit of 30mb?
[SEPH]: I moved from 20 meg (Legacy network) to 50 meg and I get 50 meg. But I'm not in a heavily populated area. My neighbour remained on 10 meg (legacy network) and he's never had better performance. It depends entirely on where you are, IMO.



If a router / superhub is switched off at the mains will it simply reboot like a modem when switched back on or does it then require setting up all over again? Should it be left on all the time?
[SEPH]: Rob's answered but I can say I leave it on all the time. Cheap electronics don't like power on/off very much.



Thanks in advance guys, im learning a lot here.

[horseman]

Please! You give that (currently) wretched device too much credit.
…..

Dave was obviously referring to the (S)Hub in that remark but if he was an Amateur Radio enthusiast he could equally be referring to these wretched UPA/HPA devices (including latest 1gbps HPA devices) that do not completely conform to EN 55022 standards anyway! In fact the ECC delayed the EN55022 (2006) replacement to existing 1998 spec under pressure from PLA manufacturers!
Basically the whole damn things a bag of worms and even if your not blighting your local Ham on his/her's HF/Top-Band reception then you could end up actually cratering your own/neighbours DAB/FM reception! :(

See > http://www.ban-plt.co.uk/
for an alternative pov on these devices…. ;)

[Sephiroth]

Well, Horse. stable door comes to mind, here!

[onlyhuman]

One final question, i was in the recent past considering buying another virgin media modem from ebay to set up in the bedroom as i have the old tv cable running in there. Would the virgin modems on ebay also not work then as they would need to be properly paired with my broadband account?

Thats about it then guys. Ill do a bit more research but i think ill risk the upgrade to 30mb and the superhub when the new firmware comes out and then use homeplugs for an internet connection in the bedroom should i ever need one.

Thanks again to all that have helped, much appreciated.

[Hugh]

You have answered your own question....

They need to be paired with your account.

However, if the cable is connected through your existing VM modem, you can attach another modem/router (I have Linksys wifi router upstairs, as well as the sHub downstairs).