View Full Version : Superhub Superhub & Virgin Media Business
ccarmock
12-05-2011, 23:35
I am aware that Virgin Media Business are about to revamp their (outdated!) business cable broadband offerings to include a 50 Mb/s service shortly.
They will also offer a proper static IP address option (single or multiple address options).
All sounds great but they plan to use the Superhub to do this. In order to provide the Fixed IP addresses they will use the Superhub to form a L2TP tunnel into the Virgin media network. They have testers doign this now I gather.
Given that I want to upgrade from the 10 Mb/s VMB service to the 50 Mb/s one I am nervous about the Superhub replacing a rock solid stable Scientific Atlanta EPC2100 modem.
They will be offering a 'NO NAT' option whereby the LAN side of the Superhub will have a public routable IP address, hwoever to run the tunnel is going to put more of a load on the device.
I read with interest Ingi's experiences of his Superhub needing multiple reboots per day, and don't look forward to havign to do that.
Reading various posts here I know there are some that have no problems with the Superhub, but others do, especially when stressing it more. Given the extra configuration & load to operate the tunnel I am concerned about stability.
I assume that negotiations with this mystery new supplier of superhubs are too early for VMB to be using a version other than the Netgear.
However given that there will be a NO NAT option as well as tunning options this implies somethign about these Superbhubs will be different to those used for residential service.
Does anyone have any more insight into what will be used?
The modem is of course a slightly different model, but I'm not sure on the restrictions around sharing information on it, so will check before I post more.
ccarmock
13-05-2011, 16:36
Thanks Nopanic it would be good to know whatever you are able to share, as currently the reports I am reading here abou tthe Superhub will put me off taking the new business services, as I can't take a risk with stability.
However if this is a different model device that could give me additional confidence!
Thanks Nopanic it would be good to know whatever you are able to share, as currently the reports I am reading here abou tthe Superhub will put me off taking the new business services, as I can't take a risk with stability.
However if this is a different model device that could give me additional confidence!
I wasn't able to get an answer today, but to be honest business connections bring with them an extra level of response. Saying that, I totally understand your concerns.
I will try again on Monday, if Ben or Dan is about, they might be able to share more info on it.
ccarmock
19-05-2011, 05:38
Were you able to get the OK to share some information on this with us?
ccarmock
02-06-2011, 21:14
I guess the answer is no :-)
Originally expecting the new services to be launched on 31st May, when calling I was told further delays - of approx 3 weeks. Hopefully this isn't due to issues with the business version of the Superhub!
Sephiroth
02-06-2011, 22:03
Igni also reports that in Bridge Mode his SH works perfectly and he has a decent router sitting behind it.
The replacement brand SH will be from a top notch supplier. The clue was in Igni's revalation!
The replacement brand SH will be from a top notch supplier. The clue was in Igni's revalation!
It is not a replacement actually we are having dual manufacturers of the same device with the same performance and interface to ensure that we have no issues with providing stock.
ccarmock
02-06-2011, 22:12
It will not be possible to use the Business fixed IP service in a bridge mode, since the router VM supply needs to for an L2TP tunnel into the VM network.
I understood that the Business service would use different hardware, as the current Superhub doesn't have L2TP capabilities.
It is not a replacement actually we are having dual manufacturers of the same device with the same performance and interface to ensure that we have no issues with providing stock.
VM have actually specified they want something with wonky wifi and routing issues?
Chrysalis
02-06-2011, 22:20
It is not a replacement actually we are having dual manufacturers of the same device with the same performance and interface to ensure that we have no issues with providing stock.
same frontend, but likely different backend code. so same featureset but with different underlying code delivering thsoe features. At the very least there will be netgear's brand removed from the advanced pages.
possibly also different underlying chipset to deliver the features, although on paper it will be same features like 4xgigabit port it wouldnt surprise me if the wireless chipset is changed at the very least.
VM have actually specified they want something with wonky wifi and routing issues?
LOL :p:
---------- Post added at 22:25 ---------- Previous post was at 22:23 ----------
Its bad enough handing out SA v+ boxes " But I want a samsung, waaa waaa" now it will be "I want a cisco superhub waaaaaaa"
Aye. I can see people calling india, telling them their hub is faulty and getting a new one shipped. Repeat process until you are lucky enough to get the new one.
One good thing about offshore, they are more than happy to send out new kit at the drop of a hat just to get rid of you.
Business support is purely UK..
LOL :p:
---------- Post added at 22:25 ---------- Previous post was at 22:23 ----------
Its bad enough handing out SA v+ boxes " But I want a samsung, waaa waaa" now it will be "I want a cisco superhub waaaaaaa"
The will be very little difference and both will offer the same performance and identical interface.
You will be issued them side by side from central stores and you are to replace them or fit them on a first box that gets picked up system.
If we send out a replacement then the first box within reach of the picker will be the one sent out and it has been designed this way to prevent picking and choosing.
It is not a Cisco box either.;)
---------- Post added at 22:34 ---------- Previous post was at 22:32 ----------
Aye. I can see people calling india, telling them their hub is faulty and getting a new one shipped. Repeat process until you are lucky enough to get the new one.
Little point they are using the same software and interface and will perform identically.
Business support is purely UK..
Talking about the second coming of the superhub, praise be to the superhub.
My hub that was rebooting every few hours has been online in another area for 6 days. I think there is a compatibility issue with the old amps where I live. Vmng300 has been solid in my house. Roll on the 100meg rollout, wonder if it will reboot after that!
Mick Fisher
03-06-2011, 09:05
My hub that was rebooting every few hours has been online in another area for 6 days. I think there is a compatibility issue with the old amps where I live. Vmng300 has been solid in my house. Roll on the 100meg rollout, wonder if it will reboot after that!
My rebooting problem seems to have sorted itself out.
Only 1 spontaneous reboot in the last 10 days. No changes my end so your amp theory could be right. Definately some sort of a network issue IMO.
This isn't a thread on Superhub issues but instead the coming usage of Superhubs by Virgin Media Business, can we please stay on topic.
ccarmock
03-06-2011, 15:59
Thanks Kymmy...
My original question was whether there was any more information available about the Superhub that the VM Business service will use, which I gather is a different device to the residential one in part due to the fact that the device will need to form an L2TP tunnel to support the static IP services that VM Business will be offering.
As this service isn't yet launched information might not be available, which is fine. But any clarification would be really useful.
Also I gather there is a further 3 week delay in launch of the new VMB services, and I wonder if Superhub issues are the reason.
pip08456
03-06-2011, 16:06
As the base for the service appears to be a version of the s****hub and they are still having firmware problems with the residential version, it could be the cause of the delay.
ccarmock
03-06-2011, 22:10
That's exactly what I am wondering to be honest. There was a comment here that it was a completely different device, but it is still referred to as a Superhub.
Sephiroth
03-06-2011, 22:34
It makes sense to me that the replacement SH would be used for VM Business.
But we're all trying to get inside VM's head. Some might say, VM's head is stuck in the sand and that they reckon their current SH to be the dogs because the majority of users aren't complaining.
Others might say that there is more than tacit recognition of the current SH's shortcomings because a replacement is on the way (no pun intended - go figure).
In the latter case, it would be remarkable (or pig headed) if the current SH would be supplied with a VM Business service.
In the latter case, it would be remarkable (or pig headed) if the current SH would be supplied with a VM Business service.
Both Superhubs will be issued alongside each other with no distinction between them as they will be using the same firmware and interface so the would be no issue.
The only difference will be in that the are two suppliers.
ccarmock
03-06-2011, 22:44
Masque - this is about the Superhub to be issued with the Virgin media business service not the residential service. There will be a difference as the Business one will support the creation of an L2TP tunnel. I don't believe the residential one has that capability.
This isn't a thread knocking the Superhub at all just about trying to get some understanding of the forthcoming Business Superhub if any information is available, neither is it about the forthcoming identical Superhub from another supplier, unless of course the business service will use the same device after all and there is L2TP capability that is hidden from view.
Masque - this is about the Superhub to be issued with the Virgin media business service not the residential service. There will be a difference as the Business one will support the creation of an L2TP tunnel. I don't believe the residential one has that capability.
It will be built by both suppliers though.
pip08456
03-06-2011, 22:50
Masque - this is about the Superhub to be issued with the Virgin media business service not the residential service. There will be a difference as the Business one will support the creation of an L2TP tunnel. I don't believe the residential one has that capability.
This isn't a thread knocking the Superhub at all just about trying to get some understanding of the forthcoming Business Superhub if any information is available, neither is it about the forthcoming identical Superhub from another supplier, unless of course the business service will use the same device after all and there is L2TP capability that is hidden from view.
Masque works with residential so you can't blame him for lack of knowledge for business.
If I were a business customer though wishing to upgrade I'd be afraid, very afraid!
Chrysalis
03-06-2011, 22:50
if the supplier is diferent ie. not netgear then the firmware will also be different because of different chips.
not to mention that the current firmware is netgear branded.
ccarmock
03-06-2011, 22:51
So is the Superhub to be used by Virgin Media Business the same as the current residential one?
pip08456
03-06-2011, 22:53
So is the Superhub to be used by Virgin Media Business the same as the current residential one?
Who knows? VM are not releasing that info ATM. It is doing VM no favours as it leads to speculation that it will be.
ccarmock
03-06-2011, 22:56
Masque works with residential so you can't blame him for lack of knowledge for business.
If I were a business customer though wishing to upgrade I'd be afraid, very afraid!
I agree which is why I was seeking clarification as it sounded as if he may have missed the fact this was about the business services and not residential.
I am a customer of VM Business on their 10 Mb/s service with 'fixed' IP address, and keen to upgrade to their 50 Mb/s service, which was originally due to be launched on 31st May, but has been delayed some 3 weeks.
Given that the way they will provide the true static IP addresses (and static IP subnets) will be via an L2TP tunnel on the router there will be no option to use Modem only mode.
Given the service has been absolutely rock solid stable for the past three years using a Scientific Atlanta modem connected my my own Cisco 881W router I am keen to find out as much as I can about how the new service will be provided before making a decision on upgrade.
Chrysalis
03-06-2011, 22:57
I do find it shocking VM are going to use this for a business service.
if the supplier is diferent ie. not netgear then the firmware will also be different because of different chips.
not to mention that the current firmware is netgear branded.
The will be a different chipset but they are keeping the firmware and interface the same, obviously it will be written for the 2nd model but apart from that the will be very little difference and you will not have a distinction like we have with the 2 V+ Vboxes, as you will get the modem that is installed and not given a choice because they have been designed to work in the same way and with the same performance.
Chrysalis
03-06-2011, 23:02
you basically mean same feature set and interface design.
but with a different chipset and different firmware supplier the actual performance could well be very different.
eg. the current superhub cant get above 500mbit on wired gigabit and has poor wireless performance, its entirely possible the other superhub will not have these issues.
you basically mean same feature set and interface design.
but with a different chipset and different firmware supplier the actual performance could well be very different.
eg. the current superhub cant get above 500mbit on wired gigabit and has poor wireless performance, its entirely possible the other superhub will not have these issues.
They have designed it to perform exactly the same or near as damn it to the present Superhub, the interface will be the same so as to ensure that everyone knows where everything is which saves on training.
pip08456
03-06-2011, 23:15
I agree which is why I was seeking clarification as it sounded as if he may have missed the fact this was about the business services and not residential.
I am a customer of VM Business on their 10 Mb/s service with 'fixed' IP address, and keen to upgrade to their 50 Mb/s service, which was originally due to be launched on 31st May, but has been delayed some 3 weeks.
Given that the way they will provide the true static IP addresses (and static IP subnets) will be via an L2TP tunnel on the router there will be no option to use Modem only mode.
Given the service has been absolutely rock solid stable for the past three years using a Scientific Atlanta modem connected my my own Cisco 881W router I am keen to find out as much as I can about how the new service will be provided before making a decision on upgrade.
What I find astounding is that VM have not released to their business customers exactly what equipment they are going to have to use for the "improved" service.
The delays in deployment would appear to mirror the delays in the residential S****hub firmware deployment.
That in itself would lead to speculation that it will be supplied via the same kit!
ccarmock
03-06-2011, 23:29
You've got it in one pip - hence my concern!
pip08456
03-06-2011, 23:45
You've got it in one pip - hence my concern!
I got it in one for you earlier!
Be afraid, be very afraid!
Sephiroth
03-06-2011, 23:45
The will be a different chipset but they are keeping the firmware and interface the same, obviously it will be written for the 2nd model but apart from that the will be very little difference and you will not have a distinction like we have with the 2 V+ Vboxes, as you will get the modem that is installed and not given a choice because they have been designed to work in the same way and with the same performance.
There's a huge difference between buggy firmware and well written firmware. Igni made this point in another thread.
I'd expect the spec to be the same.
pip08456
03-06-2011, 23:51
There is nothing wrong with the internal spec. As you say, it's all down to the firmware.
Sephiroth
03-06-2011, 23:51
So is the Superhub to be used by Virgin Media Business the same as the current residential one?
I'm astonished at the way thie answer to this question seems to be avoided by the VM insiders.
craigj2k12
03-06-2011, 23:55
There is nothing wrong with the internal spec. As you say, it's all down to the firmware.
the wireless isnt great, it would probably need redesigning inside but mostly firmware, not tested it myself but apparently modem only still gives more jitter so maybe there is hardware problems, either way if it was asda price it would be better than netgears shoddy attempt
pip08456
03-06-2011, 23:57
the wireless isnt great, it would probably need redesigning inside but mostly firmware, not tested it myself but apparently modem only still gives more jitter so maybe there is hardware problems, either way if it was asda price it would be better than netgears shoddy attempt
I was referring to the chipset, nothing more.
ccarmock
03-06-2011, 23:57
I'm astonished at the way thie answer to this question seems to be avoided by the VM insiders.
I am giving them the benefit of the doubt since most here are on the residential side. However I did note that there was a very quick jump to defend the Superhub and to point out there will be no differences, yet the question wasn't about the alternative manufacturer of the residential Superhub, nor was this a criticism of the Superhub at all.
I must admit I am beginning to form the same conclusion that they are one and the same, since the VMB delays seem to map to the firmware delays we are seeing. Hopefully I am wrong!
pip08456
03-06-2011, 23:58
I am giving them the benefit of the doubt since most here are on the residential side. However I did note that there was a very quick jump to defend the Superhub and to point out there will be no differences, yet the question wasn't about the alternative manufacturer of the residential Superhub, nor was this a criticism of the Superhub at all.
I must admit I am beginning to form the same conclusion that they are one and the same, since the VMB delays seem to map to the firmware delays we are seeing. Hopefully I am wrong!
A reasonable stance to take due to the lack of information forthcoming for business users.
craigj2k12
04-06-2011, 00:10
I was referring to the chipset, nothing more.
you said "internal spec", how was i meant to know that :D
Igni also reports that in Bridge Mode his SH works perfectly and he has a decent router sitting behind it.
The replacement brand SH will be from a top notch supplier. The clue was in Igni's revalation!
I think his source just heard something and passed it on .. he doesn't seem to know much about it ..
ccarmock
04-06-2011, 11:50
Does anyone know anything about the forthcoming Virgin Media BUSINESS Superhub?
Does anyone know anything about the forthcoming Virgin Media BUSINESS Superhub?
I've got one setup, service wise it does as it should but thats pretty much as far as I go with testing .. get it to work and make sure it works with all levels of service it should ..
Seems to be very much like the SH to be honest, clearly its got some big differences, but you need someone from Netgear or VM to allow the specs to be released to find anything interesting.
Sorry I can't be of much us .. doesn't Ste (cable team) work for business ?
craigj2k12
05-06-2011, 00:06
So another different superhub again for business?
So another different superhub again for business?
Its a different modem, I don't think Superhub is in the name .. I can't remember what they decided to call it ..
Looks pretty much the same though .. but then the Superhub does look good.
In fact scrap that .. I've only seen what they have used to test, so it could just be a test case .. case ..
ccarmock
05-06-2011, 12:34
So it's Netgear then, thoguh good to hear a different product to the residential one. Looking at the standard Netgear products this one seems to be the one that meets the requirements - ie L2TP and support for Static subnets, albeit in a different case.
http://www.netgear.com/service-provider/products/routers-and-gateways/cable-gateways/CG3000DCR.aspx
I really don't know .. I might not be talking about the same device ..
craigj2k12
05-06-2011, 13:37
I really don't know .. I might not be talking about the same device ..
giving false information again.....
giving false information again.....
Its a business ploy to lead you away from the new Supersuperhub ..
craigj2k12
05-06-2011, 13:48
Its a business ploy to lead you away from the new Supersuperhub ..
whats it called, the amazinghub
qasdfdsaq
08-06-2011, 21:27
'Magic' Hub.
As in it magically stops working when there is no plausible reason or influence that could cause it to do so.
They would be morons to keep the superhub name when launching a new business product after it has been so thoroughly dragged through the mud on the consumer side, even if it is the same kit with some firmware tweaks. It will probably use the Tivo convention of being stupidly long. So the "Virgin Media Business Hub powered by Netgear."
ccarmock
13-06-2011, 17:27
I spoke to Business sales today again. They now have a date of 1st July for the new services. Told me the service does come with a combined modem/router but that its not the same device residential use (as far as he knows!).
He also confirmed that the price for business 50 Mb/s service with phone line will be £54 a month, which will include the existing 60 mins inclusive call package for UK & selected international calls. However they are adding free calls to UK mobiles now (first 10 mins).
The 10 Mb/s service will stay, but the 20 Mb/s service will be replaced by a business 30 Mb/s service at £44 per month (including phone line). True static IP addresses will be available on all packages. for £5 a month for a single static IP or £10 for 5 static IP addresses.
So nothing like what you were originally told :rolleyes:
Any word on upload speeds?
ccarmock
13-06-2011, 17:53
Upload speeds will be 3 Mb/s for the 30 Mb/s service and 5 Mb/s for the 50. So the same as residential, and these will follow the upload upgrade plans being rolled out at the moment.
10Mb upload? Already rolled out for residential in my area but no change for VMB
ccarmock
13-06-2011, 18:02
Sorry didn't ask about the 10 Mb/s service... I assume it should be uplifted to 1 Mb/s. The 10 Mb/s service is still going to be offered, so I don't see them not changeing to upload on that too. Might be worth a call to them about that.
If it happens then it'll just be a config change, not much point in calling them..
Also if I call them they might start charging me for the fixed IP's ;)
---------- Post added at 18:20 ---------- Previous post was at 18:19 ----------
I wonder how much they'll charge for upgrading?? Just that they wanted £20 just for setting up caller-ID :rolleyes:
ccarmock
13-06-2011, 18:23
Wow they activated Caller ID for me free! There is a monthly charge, but I didn't have to pay an activation fee.
Upgrade costs from an existing package or where cable is present is £49, or £99 if it's a new install. Upgrade does involve an engineer visit.
Can you get this with out a telephone line
ccarmock
14-06-2011, 15:46
Yes it is available without a phone line. £29 for 50 Mb/s and £24 for 30 Mb/s
all of these are 3 year contracts.
qasdfdsaq
14-06-2011, 15:48
Yes
3 year contract, ouch!!!
Cheers
I spoke to Business sales today again. They now have a date of 1st July for the new services.
And still not here.. that's now 18+ months since they promised the new packages :cry:
Its coming, just a small delay. I got my briefing on the new services during the week.
ccarmock
02-07-2011, 13:13
How small is the delay this time? I was originally told Jan/Feb which was then pushed to May and then June and then most recently was told 1st July is the definite launch.
I know this is the danger of disclosing the dates. But as Kymmy points out this is now 18+ months late.
Are you able to confirm if the delays are due to buggy Superhub firmware? Everyone seems silent when this is asked, yet some people have said the business device will be different, however to the untrained eye the repeated delays in the new business services do seem to be tracking the delays in new Superhub firmware fairly closely.
Mick Fisher
02-07-2011, 15:46
On Cable, everything's always 'Coming Soon'.
Surely you've noticed that by now. :)
How small is the delay this time? I was originally told Jan/Feb which was then pushed to May and then June and then most recently was told 1st July is the definite launch.
I know this is the danger of disclosing the dates. But as Kymmy points out this is now 18+ months late.
Are you able to confirm if the delays are due to buggy Superhub firmware? Everyone seems silent when this is asked, yet some people have said the business device will be different, however to the untrained eye the repeated delays in the new business services do seem to be tracking the delays in new Superhub firmware fairly closely.
The Superhub has given us things to consider.
ccarmock
02-07-2011, 17:52
Is there any clarity on whether the Business SuperHub & residential Superhub are one and the same device?
Is there any clarity on whether the Business SuperHub & residential Superhub are one and the same device?
They are two separate devices ..
ccarmock
02-07-2011, 18:12
Thanks for the confirmation. So I assume then that the things you are having to consider for the Business Superhub are unrelated in any way to the work being undertaken on the residential superhub.
I guess you can't comment on the revised launch date?
Cost of services will be interesting.. When I first started on VMB it was a case of having advantages over the residential services such as:
1# Faster upload
2# Free tech support calls
3# Included fixed IP's
4# No traffic management
Now if you take the details put forward in the thread the only free advantage will be the no Traffic Management (and that's only on the lower packages.)
I'm seriously wondering what the advantages are in being tied down to another long term contract and paying for the upgrade??
Too little too late for an uncompetitive package at a dear price?? We'll have to wait and see..
Also they are no longer just fixed IPs but proper Static IPs and available on both 30Mb & 50Mb
---------- Post added at 09:55 ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 ----------
They are two separate devices ..
Are you 100% on that? From what I have seen its the same device.
ccarmock
05-07-2011, 12:15
Its coming, just a small delay. I got my briefing on the new services during the week.
I called Business sales today - was told I was due 1st July, but now likely to be a 2-3 month delay. Is this right? As Kymmy says this is now 18+ months late. Though the person I spoek to said it's all gone very quiet now.
VMB has been left way behind by other business broadband providers. The unfortunate situation for me is that BT Infinity isn't going to give me much more than the 10 Mb/s I get from VMB now so I have little choice but wait.
I don't think it will be as long as that at all. Will see what I can find out.
ccarmock
05-07-2011, 13:02
Thanks it would be useful to know.....
You're lucky, best I can get besides VM/VMB is 6.5Mb down 800Kb up with ADSL. No ADSL2 or Infinity here for many years yet..
Still though being a small company I can't justify spending more than the current costs especially with our industry being hit so hard :(
I really do hope they are going to think about freely upgrading existing customers and not just try to rely on new customers or extortionate upgrade fees for services that we should be on anyway :(
ccarmock
07-07-2011, 00:15
I gather the upgrade fee for existing customers is £50
I had a call back from VMB and had a much longer conversation with someone who seemed very clued up on the next steps.
He acknowledged the delay and apologised. Said there were multiple reasons but one of them IS firmware related on the business Superhub. I asked about that device and was told it is identical hardware to the residential one but with a different version of firmware with the extra L2TP options in. However some good news is that the modem part will form the L2TP tunnel to support fixed IP not the router side and thus bridge mode will be supported, though not at launch.
He told me the likely launch time is during August as they are waiting on Netgear to issue new firmware.
qasdfdsaq
07-07-2011, 14:18
Yikes. Bridge mode not supported at launch. Where have we heard this one before?
Yikes. Bridge mode not supported at launch. Where have we heard this one before?
That may be the partial reason for delay though. Waiting on the firmware.
Yikes. Bridge mode not supported at launch. Where have we heard this one before?
That's going to mess up a lot of business networks
ccarmock
07-07-2011, 16:43
That's going to mess up a lot of business networks
In what respect?
theoldbill
07-07-2011, 19:18
In what respect?
Use of owned or managed hardware at a guess - oh and the need for more than 4 network ports :cool:
ccarmock
07-07-2011, 20:25
Use of owned or managed hardware at a guess - oh and the need for more than 4 network ports :cool:
The current business modem is owned by VMB. More than 4 ports can be acheived by connecting to a switch.
The issue I was concerned about was if VMB insist on their router holding the public IP address, then all devices behind that woudl have a private address ie 192.168.xx.xx or 10.0.0.0/8 etc. However they are going to offer a no NAT option with multiple fixed IP addresses than can be assigned to customer equipment.
He told me the likely launch time is during August as they are waiting on Netgear to issue new firmware.
Did he specify which year?? :rolleyes:
ccarmock
08-07-2011, 10:29
No he didn't - good point! :)
But they can only do a no NAT fixed IP with bridge mode ;) which has already been stated will not be available at launch.. hence my point that it'll mess up a lot of businesses who don't realise this on ordering. ;)
ccarmock
24-07-2011, 20:24
They can do a No NAT without bridge mode too apparently.
Also latest news on availability - September - every month that goes my sees this go back by a month.
theoldbill
25-07-2011, 11:02
Does Business traffic get a higher priority in the local network over residential traffic?
Does Business traffic get a higher priority in the local network over residential traffic?
They used to say that you had a better contention ratio but that info was never believed and seems to have vanished from their website ;)
Sephiroth
25-07-2011, 12:10
My understanding is that QoS is deployed to favour business circuits. Do Kymmy or Ben agree?
Honestly no idea.. It seemed no faster when I switched from VM to VMB and results were no different.. Only someone with access to the config could probably agree or not..
Sept/Oct was the date I got from someone associated with the project though they did say that they're not privvy to the actual exact release details..
They did say that this would probably be 50 and 100Mb only with the 10/20 being left as existing packages..
I hope though that they realise that the can't leave the 10/20 packages as is especially as they are so out-dated..
ccarmock
10-08-2011, 17:10
I was told that the 10 / 20 packages will still be available to those that have them today but will be withdrawn and replaced with 30 Mb/s and 50 Mb/s, both with fixed IP address options (single or multiple addresses).
If you go for the calls inclusive option for the phone on the 50 Mb/s they are goign to add mobile calls into the free category (for up to 10 min per call for mobiles and 60 mins for other calls).
As I said though this person was technical and not sales
qasdfdsaq
10-08-2011, 21:41
I'll take the 100mb business service anyday, if it means not having to deal with that crappy CPE they're forcing on the consumer market... And doubly so if it means better contention ratios.
ccarmock
10-08-2011, 21:55
They don't have a 100Mb/s service in the business lineup yet. The CPE for business is the same hardware as the residential Superhub, but with different firmware
qasdfdsaq
10-08-2011, 22:21
Well officially there isn't a 50mb yet either, but I guess we'll find out what they release when they release it.
That said I have taken a look at the insides of a superhub, and the base hardware isn't really bad - most of the faults are probably firmware related so different firmware can only make things better...
Sephiroth
10-08-2011, 23:07
I think some caution is required here in terms of what one might expect by way of reduced contention.
VM's residential claim for the 10 meg residential service is 9.66 Mbps; for the business service it is 8.7 Mbps. That would be over common infrastructure with QoS implemented. So, caution there.
So, when thinking of going for Business Broadband (which I'm doing), you must ask VM to tell you what speed YOU can expect and then ask them to justify that.
Other parts of VM's business web site led me to raise an eyebrow or two.
1/
"Help is always on hand - a 24/7 FreePhone (0800) number gets you through to our dedicated Business Support Team, reassuringly based here in the UK."
You can draw yor own conclusions about VM's realisation of how customers feel about Indian call centres, yet do nothing about it.
2/"
Virgin Media Business uses 21st-Century fibre optic cable to deliver broadband, not last-century copper wires, (sometimes the last few metres may be a coaxial depending on the location of the premises being supplied)."
I seriously doubt the truth of this "21st-Century" claim. What about all the areas cabled up in the 1980s and 1990s? VM would be replacing the 1980s stuff, but the 1990s fibre? I also feel that one could be led to believe that in most cases it'll be fibre to the home. There is no other way one could interpret that paragraph unless fairly savvy about such matters. Or is it fibre to the business?
Anyway, I'll see what VM have to say about their 50 meg business service; I'll make the right challenges and hope to come away with a good feeling. But this is more in hope than expectation.
Sep, VM Business departments are all in the UK. You will NEVER speak to someone in India.
Sephiroth
11-08-2011, 11:26
Mr Moo (I like the handle),
I was amused by the "reassuringly based here in the UK" phrase. The domestic broadband users would take that as an acknowledgement by VM that there was something "unreassuring" about the offshore support team. The domestic users would also like to be "reassured", don't you think?
Cheers
Totally agree. Although, from reading other peoples posts on the VM forum, there is NOTHING reassuring about speaking to someone in India.
And thanks =)
Also the off-shore support don't call you back the day after the fault just to make sure that everything is fully sorted and that I'm happy that the fault is now fixed. In fact just like the phone call I've had.
qasdfdsaq
11-08-2011, 19:35
Wonder if I could sue them when I sign up for "21st-Century fibre optic cable to deliver broadband, not last-century copper wires" and come install day the installer fits... guess what, a last -century copper wire to my property.
I doubt though that the cable was made last century ;) :p:
qasdfdsaq
12-08-2011, 22:13
Really? Because as far as I'm aware the vast majority of the cable network(s) were laid before 2000...
I always count last century as 100-199 years old..
qasdfdsaq
13-08-2011, 02:24
Hmm. I've always understood last century as the previous century to this one... 21st century, 20th century, etc. Same as I consider last year to be 2010, not the last 365 days. Apparently that's the standard in the English language.
It probably is.. As I said though when people say last century I always think of 100+ years ago.. perhaps it's living 32 years in the 20th century has ingrained last century as the 19th century..
;)
dbeyzade
16-08-2011, 14:03
Hi,
New here. Have spoken to them available, still not be available, but should be very very soon.
No 100MB available though only 50MB. Seems silly home users will be able to get faster speed than business users.
I guess they don't want to compete with their 100MB UP & DOWN fibre offering at £500+ a month!
Daniel
ccarmock
18-09-2011, 17:06
So we are half way through September and still no sign of the new options being available from VM Business.
ccarmock
20-09-2011, 13:29
Just spoke to business sales - they are saying they now have no dates for the new services and no information on the delays.
Given the current business servcies significant;y lag behind the residential ones and they flatly refuse to offer fixed IP on the current 20 Mb/s service it maybe time to call it a day with VM Business.
I've also give up waiting from a response from the Sales team, just a shame BT infinity does not cover the two offices that Virgin cover.
ccarmock
21-09-2011, 00:31
The constant delays with no news is poor. I suspect that it's related to the Superhub firmware delays as the hardware will be the same on the business service, but with different firmware. I do wonder if Netgear have been so busy with the issues leading up to R30 that they are now behind schedule delivering the business version.
Someone on business sales did tell me that the August dely was because of a clash between the new business and residential service, which I find hard to imagine.
Just getting an idea if it was weeks, months or years away might be good!
Sephiroth
23-09-2011, 13:46
Unless I'm mistaken, a VM person could SSH into the SH, turn on QoS which would then be configured against the user's stored profile (for the issued MAC address). Or have they totally blocked SSH even against the right admin credentials?
No doubt someone will corect me - but that's how I'd expect it to be. But I was aware that the 20 meg business broadband modem had different firmware (from somewhere on this forum).
ccarmock
23-09-2011, 16:30
Unless I'm mistaken, a VM person could SSH into the SH, turn on QoS which would then be configured against the user's stored profile (for the issued MAC address). Or have they totally blocked SSH even against the right admin credentials?
No doubt someone will corect me - but that's how I'd expect it to be. But I was aware that the 20 meg business broadband modem had different firmware (from somewhere on this forum).
The current 20 Mb/s business product doesn't use the Superhub. However the 10 & 20 Mb/s will be withdrawn from new sale soon (or maybe not!) and they will offer 30 Mb/s & 50 Mb/s business services. Both will use the same superhub hardware as the consumer version, but will make use of different firmware in essence to support L2RP tunnels which will be used in order to provide true static IP address(s) for the business service.
Thsi was all supposed to launch in May this year, which hass been delayed each month since. The current message is thay have no information on availability!
ccarmock
26-09-2011, 17:35
Just ben told they should be accepting orders 3rd Oct....
qasdfdsaq
26-09-2011, 22:10
Wow short notice.
Just ben told they should be accepting orders 3rd Oct....
I'll believe it when I see it;)
ccarmock
26-09-2011, 22:50
I agree about believing when I see it!
Thinking about it the word "accepting" is making me wonder when they might get round to installing it.
qasdfdsaq
27-09-2011, 18:14
Yes but at least at that point we'll have firm details on what they are offering and pricing.
Sephiroth
27-09-2011, 20:12
A 485, no doubt. (OPINION)
A 485, no doubt. (OPINION)
I take it you mean the, Huawei VMNG485?
i know its officially not in circulation yet other than to select testers possibly.
but any news on if this is going to be a better product than the netgear?
Sephiroth
27-09-2011, 21:49
I take it you mean the, Huawei VMNG485?
i know its officially not in circulation yet other than to select testers possibly.
but any news on if this is going to be a better product than the netgear?
October 6th?
Just ben told they should be accepting orders 3rd Oct....
Just checked the website, still nothing will hve to ring later.
I've not been advised of the new BB tiers launching today.
Weird though how the STORE link has vanished and the subdomain is being bounced back to the main site.. So something's going on
ccarmock
03-10-2011, 11:03
The store link had vanished last week or so. I was told by a VMB account manager that 3rd was the day when orders could be accepted....
I have just been updated and it should be available within a couple of weeks.
ccarmock
03-10-2011, 11:39
I called the sales number - they too said a couple of weeks, but that the date of the 3rd I got from a VMB account manager might be that the account management team can order now and that the small/medium business team in a couple of weeks.
Have emailed the contact that sugested today for clarification.
Not true, when its ready to go live it will be for SMB and Public Sector at the same time.
They wouldn't be able to order it now, it needs to be live and on the system for them to do that. So whenever it goes live that is when it can be ordered.
ccarmock
03-10-2011, 20:53
Interesting. We are definitely being told different things then. But the whole launch of this has been very hit & miss all along.
Interesting. We are definitely being told different things then. But the whole launch of this has been very hit & miss all along.
I think my info would be the most accurate as I am in the department that load the orders on to the billing system and arrange installs. Sales people aren't the most clued up people imo.
ccarmock
05-10-2011, 00:07
I think my info would be the most accurate as I am in the department that load the orders on to the billing system and arrange installs. Sales people aren't the most clued up people imo.
I don't doubt you for a minute. Just relaying what I was told by a VMB account manager.
Good to hear we're only talking a couple of weeks anyway. I am keen to switch to the new service but have got a little frustrated at the delay after delay with it so I am pleased to hear it's close now.
Well with any new product launch there can and usually is a few delays. After all they don't want any problems when it does go live.
ccarmock
06-10-2011, 18:03
Totally agree, and would much rather this was a reliable service when it launches. Though the delays have been pretty significant on this - originally the plan was to launch at the end of 2010 I was told.
I know there has been no confirmation, and I doubt there will be, but since the Superhub hardware (with a different firmware stream) will be used to provide this service it's easy to form a view that the delays in this service have been related to the core firmware issues with the Superhub.
Hopefully modem mode on the business service will now be supported from day one, though I was told that might not be the case, but this was before R30 was available.
Still hopefully we're still on track for this to be available in a couple of weeks.
Ignitionnet
06-10-2011, 18:52
As I understood it it'll use modem mode ccarmock, with a Cisco router behind it handling PPPoE duty, this may not be the case now though as the Superhub's 'father' the CG3101D can also do PPPoE though this is disabled on the residential Superhub.
ccarmock
06-10-2011, 23:49
Interesting. Do you know if the Cisco router they proposed to supply is mandatory? I ask sine I have a Cisco 881W sitting behind a Scientific Atlantic EPC2100 modem ont he 10 Mb/s businesss service at the moment
Weird, my modem got a new UCD two weeks ago and now has QAM16 modulation on the upstream (still on 2560 symbol rate though). It had been QSPK for the last three years. I wonder if it's a change due to the new packages launch?
ccarmock
09-10-2011, 20:13
Has your area had the upstream upgrade yet Kymmy? I'd expect this to be part of that work as opposed to any changes for the business packages.
I have been on QPSK since I had the service - there was a brief couple of days on 16QAM. I am fed from New Malden where the network needs fairly extensive work to provide the upstream upgrade.
Hopefully the new services will laucnh soon - any more news Stephen?
The upstream and 100Mb was upgraded on the residential service months ago in this area. I did check the upstream details when it happened in the hope of the business following residential but that never happened. If it was part of that upgrade I would have expected the symbol rate to have doubled.
ccarmock
09-10-2011, 20:32
Yes I agree - I'd have expected this to change together with Symbol rate at the time the area was done. Even if the business services don't use the new profiles yet, I would have thought the symbol rate and coding would change for everyone on that cable.
ccarmock
17-10-2011, 21:43
Any further news on availability of the new services?
We have been processing orders so I think they have done a small soft launch to start with.
ccarmock
17-10-2011, 22:38
Sounds promising.... Any indication of public launch yet?
Had Virgin out to site yesterday, as looking at site to site links and they have quoted on IPVPN solution, but the Quote contains the following;
thought it might be of interest..
Virgin Media Business have recently launched Cable Modem access into IPVPN, providing unparalleled cost effective connectivity where available. Running over the Virgin Media local infrastructure, it provides carrier diversity for ADSL services at comparable cost. We will provision a Cisco 1921 router to terminate the Cable Modem service which is capable of supporting the 50Mb Cable Modem service.
As Cable Modem has not completed full testing for voice and IP multimedia services currently, it is proposed to use Cable Modem for data and ADSL with Real time 1 QoS for voice services. It is expected in due course when tested and ratifies that the cable modem service would be re-configured for voice services. VMB will install a hybrid fibre coax cable to the premises, on the end of which we will install a cable modem. An L2TP tunnel is established between the cable modem and the broadband access router which marks edge of the IPVPN network. An Ethernet port on the cable modem is provided for connection of the customer premises router.
In a similar fashion to our IPVPN ADSL service, we will support traffic prioritisation at ‘edge’ and not in the shared broadband network. #Edge# means the customer premises router, for outbound traffic, and the broadband aggregation router in the network, for traffic in-bound to the site.
Cable Modem is subject to availability and full site survey.
Speed
30Mbps (3Mbps upstream) and 50Mbps (5Mbps up) will be available
SLA
Fix SLA 20 hours
Availabilty 99.80%
ccarmock
18-10-2011, 13:24
Yes this is an instance of the new services they are about to launch...... So it does look close now.
I called to day to test the waters and was told the new Business modem service was released 2 weeks ago. They could not however take upgrade orders yet...as the computer would not let them! Said by the end of the month.
The guy had no technical details of the modem but did quote prices:
Speed 2yr 3yr contract
30/3 £34 28
50/5 39 33
Prices per month of course.
If any one has this I would be interested to know if it is working OK and more about the modem supplied. If it is a Superhub can it be set in modem mode. Also how does the fixed IPs work and are they extra in cost.
ccarmock
21-10-2011, 23:18
This looks to be the pricing for the service without inclusive call allowance, which is still offered, but will now include free calls to mobiles of up to 10 mins.
They do plan to offer the Superhub in Modem mode, but did say this might not be from launch. My guess is they were waiting for the R30 firmware stream to derive the business equivalent firmware.
The fixed IPs are extra cost - £5 for a single fixed address, £10 for 6 and £15 for 14 IP addresses. Costs are per month.
They are truely static addresses that will not change even if network resegmentation work takes place. They are provided via an L2TP tunnel from the Superhub to the VMB network. If you move locations you can take the IP addresses with you.
Good that it's finally live- but a bit weird they didn't cater for upgrades from the start!!! It's not like they haven't had time, since this is well over a year late now.
ccarmock
31-10-2011, 13:53
Well I see that finally the VM Business web page has been updated. It now mentions next generation networks etc. Talks a bit high speed broadband. But the classic thing is that ti makes NO mention of bandwidth options offfered. brilliant piece of marketing!
I'm astounded at their fixed IP costs (if what's been published on here is correct) :( Currently I paid £10 for the setup of my 5 fixed IPs and there's no monthly charge. Now if they'd charged per address (I only tend to use two these days) then it would be a lot more cost effective than being charged for what I don't need.
So much for their understanding of small businesses :(
Re the fixed IP costs these seem to be similar to the competition I am afraid (just paid similar to BT for a backup line).
I just received a copy of the manual from the welcome pack. The modem is a Super Hub. There is no reference to "modem mode" in the manual, only reference to what happens in fixed IP mode (with multiple IPs) where the modem acts as a fixed router. That probably means its firewall is still active so there may be similar problems to the domestic service. Unfortunately the PDF version of the manual is not high enough quality to make out the full details of other settings from the screen dumps.
I was told they are still not in a position to upgrade existing users due to technical issues!
ccarmock
01-11-2011, 14:33
I gather they don't have the required order screens yet for upgrades, but when I called was told they are expecting that to be available any day now.
I'm astounded at their fixed IP costs (if what's been published on here is correct) :( Currently I paid £10 for the setup of my 5 fixed IPs and there's no monthly charge. Now if they'd charged per address (I only tend to use two these days) then it would be a lot more cost effective than being charged for what I don't need.
So much for their understanding of small businesses :(
Ntl areas never used to charge monthly fees for fixed IPs and telewest areas did. So they have now got all areas the same. £5 per month for 1 and £10 a month for 5 I think.
ccarmock
02-11-2011, 00:13
Ntl areas never used to charge monthly fees for fixed IPs and telewest areas did. So they have now got all areas the same. £5 per month for 1 and £10 a month for 5 I think.
Those were the costs I was quoted with an option to have 13 for £15. Compared with ex-Telewest areas before this is a price reduction as the cost before was £10 for one.
ccarmock
10-11-2011, 00:20
Well another week, another call to VM Business. Still can't place an upgrade order. Still can't tell me when. They predict it could be up to two months more.
I asked if they are accepting orders for new service - yes they tell me. Ok can I place an additional order and cancel the old. No they said as that would mean a new contract (Well the upgrade does anyway!) and also a cancellation charge as I am still in contract on the old service. Madness - a case of the computer says no!
Not sure if Stephen is about - is it really likely to be 2 months more before I can place an upgrade order?
Just told it should be ready within 2 weeks - "the new screens are being trialled".
What's the situation with inclusive calls? Just that the current BB&phone has inclusive calls but the website has now removed all mention of them.
ccarmock
15-11-2011, 01:29
My understanding is that there is atill an option for inclusive calls, which now include calls to UK mobiles up to 10 mins.
any word yet on upgrades? Or is it going to be the usual January..no sorry May..no sorry October that we've come to expect from VMB :(
ccarmock
01-12-2011, 19:48
I called last Friday to be told upgrades are still a few weeks away. However since some here have had upgrades, I called again on Monday to be told yes I can take your upgrade order. I was told to expect an email to confirm details. I also now have the email and direct number for the person dealing with it for me. So when I hadn't had the email confirmation by Wednesday I called him back to hear they are processing so many upgrade orders per day and his next batch was thursday. However I have still not received the upgrade email I was expecting. So not really sure whether it is happening or not.
Stephen if you are about could you confirm?
We have been on the Superhub 50MB Business package since 31-01-2012 and had problems since day 1.
keep losing connection to the internet etc. they changed our router and this still continued to happen.
I have now been called this evening saying there is a firmware issue that if you are using static IPs and using services like VoIP / VPN which uses UDP then this is the reason for the connection dropping.
its a fault with the firmware which im told is being looked into.
I have asked the question that if we turn the superhub into a gateway (Modem Only) and supply our own rotuer, (we would need to have more then the 1 static IP for this to work) would this solve the issue?
the fault is due to the L2TP Tunel and my logic is that if the fault is with the superhub firmware then why not turn the superhub into a modem only and suppy our own router which will then manage the L2TP Tunel would this give us a stable connection.
VM said in therory yes, but will get this confirmed this week.
I have however been offered the option to downgrand to the 10MB service which will use the standalone modem and solve the issue until the firmware is fixed.
ccarmock
11-02-2012, 21:57
The issue is there is no modem only mode on the current version of the business Superhub firmware.
While you can put your own router behind the Superhub and assign it a public routable static IP address if you have a routed subet from VMB - this doesn't stop the Superhub routing. What it does do though is stop the Superhub NATting.
You would then run any NAT you require on your router. I have this config now and don't have issues with UDP services like VoIP and VPN.
Therefore I wonder if it is a NAT issue?
General Maximus
11-02-2012, 22:03
as much as I love VM for speed, being forced to have the shub as a router is enough to put me off VM for life. What nipple head at VM thinks the shub is so amazing that it can out class Cisco routers? I am actually lost for words it is such a stupid idea.
In terms of logic you would have thought it would be the other way around where they would have released modem mode for businesses and forced the routing fuction on domestic users.
VM told me this evening that if we upgrade to have 8 Static IPs this would then mean the superhub would simple act as a gateway / modem
how long as your connection been active for without going offline or resetting?
the problem we have is we are a VoIP company who supply and support VoIP Phone Systems and we use this our selfs in the office.
last week i was on a call (VoIP) and last the call and noticed the superhub connection had reset.
it appears the L2TP side is the issue and confirmed by VM tonight.
ccarmock
11-02-2012, 22:19
That's not true - the Superhub will continue to route if you have 8 static IP addresses. What it won't do is perform NAT.
I have had it setup in this NO NAT mode since day one. Current uptime of the SuperHub is 39 days.
If you have static IP addresses you will always have the L2TP tunnel, but I wonder if the combination of NAT that causes this as opposed to routing?
I was told that modem only mode for the business Superhub firmware is coming though.
Something worth adding - I have wireless on the Superhub completely disabled, and am using a Cisco 881W behind it for wireless connectivity.
Do i need to contact VM to do anything before we use our own router?
what do i need to do to get our own router working.
Disable the L2TP on the superhub and enable it on the new (second router)??
ccarmock
11-02-2012, 22:36
Strictly speaking no, but it doesn't gain you a lot on it's own. Also depending on your config you could end up double NATting. So if you contact them to have a routed subnet applied to your account then you can disable NAT on the Superhub and perform that on your own router. This is the option I went for, and don't suffer the resets you do.
I dont' believe VMB supper the option of you formign the L2TP tunnel on your own router. That would still be carried out on the Superhub even in modem only mode I gather.
so to confrim by doing what you have, you have had no downtime in 39 days?
once VM have enabled it. what do i need to do on the superhub and the new router?
ccarmock
11-02-2012, 22:52
Thats right - the Superhub has been solid stable for 39 days continuously.
Note earlier I mentioed also WiFi is disabled on the Superhub.
I am not sure of the process you need to go through if you change to a routed subnet - VMB might send an engineer to do the config. You can do it yourself though - did you get the PDF of the userguide - that explains how to setup the business Superhub from scratch and includes full config details of the routed subnet option.
No. did not get the PDF can you supply me a copy?
ccarmock
11-02-2012, 23:02
Sure - PM me your email address and I'll email you a copy over.
done
---------- Post added at 23:11 ---------- Previous post was at 23:03 ----------
could you also confrim that you are on the firmware: V5.5.2R04-BU???
ccarmock
11-02-2012, 23:16
Thanks - PDF on it's way to you. Yes my firmware is the same.
Thanks for the info.
so basically when setting up the superhub with a static range of IPs from VM
the first public IP will be assigned to the LAN interface of the Superhub, then any other devices on the network will be setup with the second public IP with a default gateway of the Public IP of the superhub??
if this is the case, then this is easy to setup :) once vm give me a range of IPs
Chrysalis
12-02-2012, 07:03
as much as I love VM for speed, being forced to have the shub as a router is enough to put me off VM for life. What nipple head at VM thinks the shub is so amazing that it can out class Cisco routers? I am actually lost for words it is such a stupid idea.
In terms of logic you would have thought it would be the other way around where they would have released modem mode for businesses and forced the routing fuction on domestic users.
I have to agree considering the issues on the consumer service its classic stupidity to use this on a business level service.
I would guess there are two reasons they used the Superhub.
1) is to support L2TP so they can provide fixed IPs in a better way. The way they have done this up to now with "sticky" IPs is a real pain for them and the users.
2) they want to match the offerings of BT and others who supply a Superhub like device with wireless etc built in. (Note though that I believe BT had recall on many of their BT Infinity routers due to a hardware issue so VM are not the only ones to have issues like this.)
ccarmock
12-02-2012, 10:43
Thanks for the info.
so basically when setting up the superhub with a static range of IPs from VM
the first public IP will be assigned to the LAN interface of the Superhub, then any other devices on the network will be setup with the second public IP with a default gateway of the Public IP of the superhub??
if this is the case, then this is easy to setup :) once vm give me a range of IPs
Yes that's pretty much it. The first IP gets assigned as a secondary to the Superhub.
Under LAN IP 192.168.0.1 still appears (which DHCP turned off)
Under static subnet is where the routed subnet appears.
Also under Services Firewall features is off and greyed out. Only IPSEC & PPTP pass through and Multicast is enabled.
Chrysalis
12-02-2012, 11:51
I would guess there are two reasons they used the Superhub.
1) is to support L2TP so they can provide fixed IPs in a better way. The way they have done this up to now with "sticky" IPs is a real pain for them and the users.
2) they want to match the offerings of BT and others who supply a Superhub like device with wireless etc built in. (Note though that I believe BT had recall on many of their BT Infinity routers due to a hardware issue so VM are not the only ones to have issues like this.)
BT use the homehub on their business customers?
the recall I think was on the openreach modems themselves not routers.
qasdfdsaq
12-02-2012, 17:13
BT supply an optional Ethernet router on their high-end service(s) and a standalone modem. It's entirely your choice whether to use the router, modem, or both (though they will obviously only support their kit if a fault occurs).
Thankfully, since this thread started they've given me a far better alternative to VM business.
Thanks for the info.
I am waiting for VM to call back today RE: Firmware FIX
if no Fix is available this week, i will then upgrade to ensure we get a stable connection.
it went off Saturday night for about 20 minutes but seems to have been ok since then so far.
Did you either get a timescale for the bug fix or move to the subnet option. If the latter does it work OK?
its been more stable without having the routed option at the moment.
restarted on Friday due to (Resetting the cable modem due to docsDevResetNow)
going to monitor it this week and if it goes off anymore, will be asking for routed option.
i do however see the below in the logs for this weekend.
Sat Feb 18 16:07:30 2012 Critical (3) SYNC Timing Synchronization failure - Failed to acquire FEC framing;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;CM-QOS=1.1;CM-VER=3.0;
Sat Feb 18 16:07:30 2012 Warning (5) Lost MDD Timeout;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxCM-QOS=1.1;CM-VER=3.0;
Sat Feb 18 16:07:30 2012 Warning (5) MDD message timeout;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxCM-QOS=1.1;CM-VER=3.0;
Sat Feb 18 16:06:54 2012 Critical (3) SYNC Timing Synchronization failure - Failed to receive MAC SYNC frame within time-out period;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxCM-QOS=1.1;CM-VER=3.0;
MACs removed from last post. Please do not post Cable Modem MACs..
There is a lengthy debate about other issues with the business version of the Superhub going on in this thread on the official VM community forum:
http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/Up-to-50Mb-broadband/Virgin-Superhub-MTU-issues-and-buggy-firmware/td-p/1043341/highlight/false
Apart from mention of the VOIP issue there is a definite problem with running email server traffic through SH. VM acknowledge the problem and have a workaround but several claim that does not work.
VM staff do not respond to business service matters on that forum (there is not one for business users). If anyone with knowledge of the business modem service would like to comment here it would be appreciated as we have having one installed tomorrow.
We have now downgraded to Cisco 2100 Cable Modem on 10 MB Service, which was completed about 10 min ago.
all is good
We have now downgraded to Cisco 2100 Cable Modem on 10 MB Service, which was completed about 10 min ago.
all is good
The Cisco can handle 20 if you need more speed
correct, but no static IP :(
Andrewcrawford23
07-03-2012, 11:38
i have jsut been thiinking, this is goign to sound ridilkous but not impossible
i jsut read that plenty of people on business are having problems with email servrs.
well on residental lines virign block port 25 due to potential spam so peopel cant set up ther eown server.
i wonder if some idiot has not unblocked port 25 for business cusotmers?
ccarmock
07-03-2012, 11:49
Port 25 isn't blocked on the business service, but the Superhub causes problems, we think related to MTU for inbound SMTP connections.
Andrewcrawford23
07-03-2012, 11:55
Port 25 isn't blocked on the business service, but the Superhub causes problems, we think related to MTU for inbound SMTP connections.
fair enough just wanted to be sure as wouldnt surprise me if virign had
I can also confrim port 25 is NOT blocked on residental as we had an exchange server at home with no issues.
We have no trust in VM with the superhub, we are getting BT FTTC installed at the end of this month and VM will be used as a backup connection and will remain at 10MB
we have already lost £10k in lost sales due to the SH
qasdfdsaq
07-03-2012, 12:24
Aside from BT FTTC being a better service overall I'd have switched over a long time ago if I knew it was going to cost me any more than £20 not to!
Well this discussion continued on the VM communities forum but was just closed by a moderator on that forum - stating that all business internet problems should only be discussed on the phone! Well I don't think he can censor discussion here.
As an update I can confirm that reducing the MTU size in our router has solved the Exchange problem we also encountered after installation (although it was not evident at first).
I since had a call returned from Business Faults who tried to tell me to do the very same fix, i.e. to set the MTU value in the email server or the router (if you have one) depending on type of setup. They were not quite clear as to the best value to use, but something under 1460 was advised.
The guy also told me they had a new version of firmware was being tested "next week". He did not know how it fixes having this restricted MTU (I found most PPPoE networks use 1492) but said they were working on this issue and also some other issue with the tunnel dropping occasionally.
we are now hitting real problems with downgrading to the 10MB service due to limited bandwidth (Upload speed) with our VoIP Phone System.
so we are really on to a no winner here.
Our offices are serviced by both BT(ADSL Maxi) and (Virgin Media)
to operate we need at least 1.5MB upload speed.
BT can't give us enough bandwidth until FTTC is enabled, Virgin 10MB is not really fast enough, 20MB does not have static IP Address, and 50MB is full of faults.
Leased Lines is £1200 per month, we have now changed the codec on the phone system from G711 to G729 which will lower the bandwidth usage so will keep an eye on this.
I hope VM don't take too long in fixing the issues.
MovedGoalPosts
09-03-2012, 17:25
<------ Is slightly worried since his office is about to be upgraded to 50meg on Monday. Not quite sure how the superhub, even with a dynamic IP, is going to integrate into a dual WAN routed system so we can use either cable or and ADSL2 connection if one goes a bit wonky.
qasdfdsaq
09-03-2012, 17:25
Does 20mb (performance wise) work for you? If this is business critical, then there are ways of getting a static IP address by bypassing Virgin Media. It's a dirty hack, but does do the job.
Alternatively, some ADSL ISPs offer line bonding, which along with doubling your download speed also doubles your upload speed, but those options are expensive for what you get.
Rob: FYI we have a dual WAN device (SonicWall) now with the 50 Mb VM and Zen ADSL (Max) and now email is flowing OK it seems to be functioning OK. We do not have VOIP (other that the occasional Skye call). We did opt for the 5 fixed IPs with a subnet.
ccarmock
09-03-2012, 20:59
I see VM decided to shut the thread down on the community forum about this.
However I just wanted to post here (as I can't there!) that changing the config of the Cisco router I have behind the Business Superhub with ip mtu 1460 on the WAN interface and ip tcp adjust-mss 1420 on the internal VLAN1 interface seems to have fixed the email delay problems I had been experiencing.
are you getting any errors in the logs?
why such a drop in MTU Size? surely this can cause issues with networks sending packets larger then your MTU?
MovedGoalPosts
12-03-2012, 14:50
Superhub installed with dynamic IP. Installer had a bit of a fiddle in the street cabinet as he checked signal levels. Ethernet between LAN port and WAN2 port of our Draytek Vigor 2920 dual WAN router as a straight swap for the old Cisco modem. Not even a router reboot and all works fine.
I've disabled the wireless, without any testing of it. No real need for it as the Superhub is on the wrong part of the network configuration to allow any wireless connected devices to obtain stuff from our LAN servers. It's for that reason that I'd suggest in many business locations the Superhub provides more functionality than is needed, and thus may be a tad more expensive to provide to customers than an alternative chocie of a SACM. Seems a shame that the Cisco modem, only a year old, is now confined to a spares shelf to gather dust.
Rob, do you not have any mail servers?
are you getting any errors in the logs?
why such a drop in MTU Size? surely this can cause issues with networks sending packets larger then your MTU?
On our router when you reduce the MTU size, there is also an option (we have checked) for the router to fragment packets larger than this size going from LAN to WAN.
I believe though that during initialisation of a TCP session between a device and a router, it will say what its maximum MTU size is and the device connecting to it should limit its packet size accordingly.
MovedGoalPosts
12-03-2012, 17:11
Rob, do you not have any mail servers?
Not on site no. We migrated to the cloud about a year ago, and our user's simply connect to the interweb servers via their locally run Outlook. We'd had too many issues with local server and connection downtime, plus issues with smartphone use that the cloud made sense especially when you could so easily log in from any remote location even if our own stuff was a problem. The cloud system also removes a big headache of local backups.
We don't do much remote or home working, but for those that do I am able to congure our network to give remote login to file shares on the server. The ADSL has static IPs, so dynamic IP on the cable isn't really an issue, especially since they are so sticky.
We do have some 20 users, and internet activity is critical to the business. Originally the VM cable was put in as a backup to the ADSL. Now it's reversing as Cable is offering the faster, more stable speeds than ADSL.
are you getting any errors in the logs?
I see VM decided to shut the thread down on the community forum about this.
However I just wanted to post here (as I can't there!) that changing the config of the Cisco router I have behind the Business Superhub with ip mtu 1460 on the WAN interface and ip tcp adjust-mss 1420 on the internal VLAN1 interface seems to have fixed the email delay problems I had been experiencing.
ccarmock
12-03-2012, 22:19
No I am not seeing errors in the logs at all now. The Superhub is just reporting some T3 timeouts as I am in a heavily congested area, but that's another story.
I am not seeing errors in the Cisco router logs either, and the errors I was seeing in the SMTP Receive log on Exchange have gone away now too. Email is being delivered quickly.
So MTU of 1460 has really helped for me. As soon as new Business Superhub firmware is available I will try to revert to default settings, but right now this has resolved my immediate issues.
Now just to have the IP Edge network team address my congestion issues! I have had a week of 'no ETA' Today I escalated to the CEO's office and am told that they put a planner on it today, planning should be complete by tomorrow lunchtime and they are working to implement by Friday if all goes well.
Now this leads me onto a further issue with the business superhub. At times congestion is so bad I am getting 100% packet loss. When this happens the upper blue light on the Superhub stops flashing and goes solid blue. If it stays in this state too long sometimes the superhub will not recover and needs a restart in order to work again.
i'm going to Order a Draytek 3200N Quad Wan Port Router and get Virgin to put us back on 50Mb and test again as the bandwidth of the 10Mb service is causing us issues.
Questions
1. Ask Virgin Meida for a block of 5 IPs?
2. Setup the Draytek router and set MTU to 1460
3. Do we need to change MTU on the Servers?
is there anything else i need to be aware of?
ccarmock
13-03-2012, 08:39
I still have the MTU size set on the Exchange server too, but will text with that back at the default and just MTU changed on the router and let you know how I get on.
Draytek Vigor 3200n Quad-WAN Router now ordered :)
currently running the Linksys E1000 Router with the Cisco 2100 Modem.
can't see the MTU setting within the E1000 router to "Accept large incoming fragmented UDP or ICMP packets"
think this option is only available on the Draytek.
I still have the MTU size set on the Exchange server too, but will text with that back at the default and just MTU changed on the router and let you know how I get on.
so you suggesting setting the MTU to 1420 on the router?
On our router we only had the option to change the MTU size. I believe any device connected should be able to work out the MSS size from the MTU size although there is a specific setting for the CISCO routers I believe relating to packets they reform.
We did not change anything in our Exchange server - I am hoping/believe it should work out what size of packet to use when it negotiates the connection to the gateway (the router). Email is passing through OK now.
For those hoping this particular issue may be solved by a firmware upgrade - it seems unlikely as having done a little more reading it seems to be a feature of running an L2TP tunnel. See this article here: http://www.cisco.com/en/US/tech/tk801/tk703/technologies_tech_note09186a0080094c4f.shtml
There are other issues to be fixed though like some VOIP issues and apparently the tunnel going down occasionally and taking a while to restart (to quote the VM tech support guy).
so even fixing the MTU size, we will still have issues with VoIP??
We do not use VOIP, but earlier in this thread someone seemed to have been given information that any VOIP issues might be limited to running the modem in NAT mode.
Some advice was given to go for the subnet of fixed IP addresses which avoids using NAT. ccarmock said he had been running for 39 days without issue in that mode.
ccarmock
14-03-2012, 00:47
I am suffering no VoIP issues (apart from when congestion strikes) as APS says. I have the 6 IP routable subnet.
just spoken to VM about going back to 50MB and use the work around.
Been told that VM are no longer doing 50MB until the issues have been fixed.
NO ETA
ccarmock
14-03-2012, 15:05
I had also heard they were suspending new sales of the 30 Mb/s and 50 Mb/s service pending new Superhub firmware. You might be able to make a case to go back to the 50 Mb/s service with the knowledge of the issues, as you had already had that service and rolled back. Ie you're not strictly speaking a new 50 Mb/s customer.
qasdfdsaq
14-03-2012, 15:58
Oh wow, admitting a problem and doing something sensible about it. Impressive.
Sephiroth
14-03-2012, 16:09
More like the Super Hub strikes again.
I heard heard about this a couple of weeks ago, and although it will pose a few problems short term, it is better for the long term that they get Netgear to sort out the issues and get a new firmware out ASAP.
can you provide us an ETA on the release of the new firmware?
I heard heard about this a couple of weeks ago, and although it will pose a few problems short term, it is better for the long term that they get Netgear to sort out the issues and get a new firmware out ASAP.
Sorry, no can do. Its in the hands of Netgear to sort out.
If Netgear do not class VM as a priority customer and provide a fix then maybe VM should look at other solutions or stick with Cisco.
Sorry, no can do. Its in the hands of Netgear to sort out.
General Maximus
16-03-2012, 15:20
absolutely, they should be emarrassed with the number of problems they have had with the shub and if i was one of the head honchos at Netgear I would tell them to put everything on hold till it was fixed. Fiascos like the shub not only tarnish VM's reputation but also Netgears.
craigj2k12
16-03-2012, 17:10
absolutely, they should be emarrassed with the number of problems they have had with the shub and if i was one of the head honchos at Netgear I would tell them to put everything on hold till it was fixed. Fiascos like the shub not only tarnish VM's reputation but also Netgears.
its true
queue the idiots who have a perfect superhub
qasdfdsaq
16-03-2012, 17:29
The only way a Superhub would be perfect is if it was shaped like a boob.
ccarmock
16-03-2012, 17:50
It has been embarassing for VM for sure. And now to cause them to withdraw their new business broadband services is very bad. But I have to say VMB have done the right thing here as they don't want to make the situation worse. However for business services it makes me think they should ditch the superhub and go with a Cisco device.
The business superhub runs different firmware, and so far I have been hit by two problems with it - high latency & jitter compared with the older 10 MB/s business service I had on a Scientific Atlanta modem.
The other problem is the MTU size issue, which actually might not be a Superhub issue at all, but a limitation of using an L2TP tunnel. However setting MTU to 1460 on the router behind the superhub does workaroudn the problem, so I no longer get delayed email.
Hopefully VMB will push Netgear hard to get new firmware out for these devices so they can start to sell the new services again.
Sephiroth
16-03-2012, 18:09
I'm wondering whether your interleave factor on the SH has changed frpm the 10 meg modem. The interleave stats used to be displayed on the VMNG 300, but they are suppressed on the SH (I say cynically to prevent knowledgeable customers from seeing what's going on). That would affect latency.
I also think you're giving credit to VM for an obviously needed decision without chiding them for yet another debacle of releasing something that was not fit for purpose.
Regarding the MTU size, if it woeks on a router behind the SH, then it must be got working by VM on the SH itself. It's why it's there. Why those idiots didn't put modem mde onto the business SH is beyond me; false reasoning I'm sure.
ccarmock
16-03-2012, 18:24
Good point about interleave. However I also have the static IP subnet option, which means the Superhub forms an L2TP tunnel to the VM network in Birmingham (I am in Surrey), so my breakout point on the internet is Birmingham, so that will add some latency. Interleave would affect it too as you say.
What I have is a Cisco router behind the Superhub. Since I have a routed subnet the Superhub is not performing any NAT, so that is done on the Cisco 892W I have behind it. On the WAN interface of that router I have the ip mtu set to 1460 and my delayed email issue has gone away.
I had understood that a future firmware release for the business superhub will add modem mode. However I am not sure if the formation of the L2TP tunnel comes from the router or modem side of the Superhub. If the router side it would likely not be viable for the static IP options.
Current business superhub firmware is: V5.5.2R04-BU which is the same base as the residential version. I wonder if this means it's derived from R04 of the residential firmware!
craigj2k12
16-03-2012, 23:05
I'm wondering whether your interleave factor on the SH has changed frpm the 10 meg modem. The interleave stats used to be displayed on the VMNG 300, but they are suppressed on the SH (I say cynically to prevent knowledgeable customers from seeing what's going on). That would affect latency.
I also think you're giving credit to VM for an obviously needed decision without chiding them for yet another debacle of releasing something that was not fit for purpose.
Regarding the MTU size, if it woeks on a router behind the SH, then it must be got working by VM on the SH itself. It's why it's there. Why those idiots didn't put modem mde onto the business SH is beyond me; false reasoning I'm sure.
interleaving on cable doesnt make as much difference as it does on adsl, a matter of 1 or 2ms on cable, whereas the same increase of interleaving on adsl would put it up 30 or 40ms
Sephiroth
16-03-2012, 23:39
Craigie
I suppose you're right about the amount of latency added in DOCSIS purely down to interleaving.
So it's back to that buffering tjing. Bonded channels complicate matters. Data doesn't arrive in sequence, and each channel can have different impairments; hence the high amount of buffering necessary to assemble a packet. Then there's the interleaving to further assist the FEC functions which adds to the buffer requirements.
So you can't avoid higher latency in DOCSIS and my sense tells me that it would increase further with 8 bonded downstream channels.
Or have I misunderstood something?
qasdfdsaq
17-03-2012, 00:36
Good point about interleave. However I also have the static IP subnet option, which means the Superhub forms an L2TP tunnel to the VM network in Birmingham (I am in Surrey), so my breakout point on the internet is Birmingham, so that will add some latency. Interleave would affect it too as you say.
Actually it's in Bradford, after going through Manchester.
ccarmock
17-03-2012, 00:41
Actually it's in Bradford, after going through Manchester.
Sorry yes you are absolutely right. Been a long day! :)
craigj2k12
17-03-2012, 00:42
Craigie
I suppose you're right about the amount of latency added in DOCSIS purely down to interleaving.
So it's back to that buffering tjing. Bonded channels complicate matters. Data doesn't arrive in sequence, and each channel can have different impairments; hence the high amount of buffering necessary to assemble a packet. Then there's the interleaving to further assist the FEC functions which adds to the buffer requirements.
So you can't avoid higher latency in DOCSIS and my sense tells me that it would increase further with 8 bonded downstream channels.
Or have I misunderstood something?
so are we saying here that the superhub uses additional buffering becuase it bonds more channels? I also thought the added buffering compared to the VMNG was on the upstream, which goes back to not making sense as the VMNG has the same amount of upstreams
Iggie would know but it seems the mods here have peed him off, maybe time to make use of the better moderation over at the alternative cable forum?
qasdfdsaq
17-03-2012, 00:44
Buffering on the DOCSIS layer is usually configurable based on information sent from the CMTS to the modem (i.e. config file).
Has anyone actually done any tests to measure the upstream/downstream buffers on the SH? (e.g. Netalyzr or the few better around)
craigj2k12
17-03-2012, 00:47
I can test the superhub, but nothing to compare it to, if someone could run it on the VMNG, but then that would make it a bit unfair as its on a different part of the network
qasdfdsaq
17-03-2012, 00:49
The buffering is configured as a modem function so the part of the network shouldn't matter (unless they use different buffering setups on the same modem in different areas, which is possible, in theory)
craigj2k12
17-03-2012, 00:54
http://n1.netalyzr.icsi.berkeley.edu/restore/id=43ca253f-3814-ce1ea7f9-c979-402e-95d6/rd
qasdfdsaq
17-03-2012, 01:40
Network buffer measurements (? (http://n1.netalyzr.icsi.berkeley.edu/info_buffer.html)): Uplink 229 ms, Downlink is good + (http://n1.netalyzr.icsi.berkeley.edu/restore/id=43ca253f-3814-ce1ea7f9-c979-402e-95d6/rd#)
Unusually low for VM. Still, Netalyzr is not one of the better buffering tests, I just can't dig out the good one I used recently
Chrysalis
17-03-2012, 03:50
Craigie
I suppose you're right about the amount of latency added in DOCSIS purely down to interleaving.
So it's back to that buffering tjing. Bonded channels complicate matters. Data doesn't arrive in sequence, and each channel can have different impairments; hence the high amount of buffering necessary to assemble a packet. Then there's the interleaving to further assist the FEC functions which adds to the buffer requirements.
So you can't avoid higher latency in DOCSIS and my sense tells me that it would increase further with 8 bonded downstream channels.
Or have I misunderstood something?
except the excess buffering is on the upstream and that currently has no bonding?
Sephiroth
17-03-2012, 10:15
Craigie
The main truth of my previous post was that bonding means that packets need to be re-constructed from the jumble, which includes jumble cause by interleaving. The higher the number of bonded channels, the greater the amount of re-assembly needed. Equals latency.
craigj2k12
17-03-2012, 11:43
Craigie
The main truth of my previous post was that bonding means that packets need to be re-constructed from the jumble, which includes jumble cause by interleaving. The higher the number of bonded channels, the greater the amount of re-assembly needed. Equals latency.
It will increase, but not by a noticeable amount, whereas bonding 8 channels compared to 4 will add <1ms, buffering more at the modem can mean 10ms+ (obviously depending on how many are buffered) - either way - the latency difference between superhub and VMNG isnt to do with channels, as when I was testing both, I only had 4 downstreams on both
And if you find Kymmy's TBB monitor, thats quite good (for a VM graph) and she is connected to 8 downstreams
ccarmock
18-03-2012, 11:07
Latest issues with the Business service.... The congestion causing poor performance has been improved greatly. Speeds of 48 Mb/s most of the time seem the norm again. Getting around 5.4 Mb/s up too which is good too.
However in Friday all day theer were drops and loss of sync. Suspected duff Superhub but then found to be due to a low SNR issue in the area. Supposedly fixed Saturday morning. Indeed the service was stable until Saturday evening and then overnight my think broadband graph shows lots of drops, then at 8 am dropped permanently with the blue light on solid on the Superhub. reboot fixes it.
Faults tell me they are seeing 50+ tunnel drops over the past 24 hours and I am likely to be suffering from a known firmware issue in the Business Superhub which causes a tunnel drop with UDP packets. I haven't experienced that with an IP Phone I have here, but do have a VPN tunnel setup too.
The person who diagnosed this as a firmware issue did say there are some limited field trials of a new version underway right now, so it may not be long before release.
The lady I am talking to in business complaints has arranged for me to be contacted by the team next week potentially to participate in that trial.
don't expect the firmware fix to be bug free from previous experence.
I have put a Draytek 3200 with QOS control in on our connection, hoping to use this router when we go back to 50Mb
the fixes are taking way too long to be released. a fix should be sent out within a few days of the bug being noticed / reported.
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