View Full Version : God when are we going to get a decent upload speed!
BenRichards
23-09-2009, 11:26
/Rant on
When are virgin going to give us a decent upload speed.
Not everyone uploads things illegally!!!!
/Rant off
AbyssUnderground
23-09-2009, 14:29
Probably when pigs fly - never.
We see promises of upload increases and never see them. In fact around Christmas last year I got an anonymous tip-off that all upload speeds were to double. That's not happened yet either. Could have been a rumor but who knows?
BenRichards
23-09-2009, 14:32
It just sux!
other countries have great upload rates.
Just not the UK it seems :(
AbyssUnderground
23-09-2009, 14:35
Yeah I know, tell me about it. I had to get a server in France just to get a cheap price and 100Mbps port with un-metered bandwidth. Bandwidth in the UK is extremely expensive it seems.
Welshchris
23-09-2009, 14:38
i did hear also that when Virgin completed the 50mb roll out they were going to up the 50mb users upload to 2.5mb and the 20mb users to 1.2mb.
AbyssUnderground
23-09-2009, 14:40
I heard similar as I said above, but it was going to be 10Mbps get 1Mbps upload, 20Mbps get 2Mbps and 50Mbps get 5Mbps, the 2Mbps tier gets no change... Probably all rumor though as nothing has been confirmed by Virgin.
I can do nothing more than totally agree with you guys! Do you think tht there is enough demand for virgin to take it a bit more seriously? No more news on the 10mb upload trials mentioned a few week ago :( not gonna be for ages I spose
Yea it needs to be done
It'd be nice if the upload rivalled that of Be, who offer "upto 2.5" on their Pro package.
The problem is the headline speed is still down.
What we need is an ISP to start advertising how fast UP they go, perhaps VM will then match or beat them.
AntiSilence
23-09-2009, 20:52
Maybe they will up it when we're all paying that extra '50p' tax on our phone lines...
BenRichards
24-09-2009, 10:48
i just want to be able to upload my iphoto library to dropbox at speeds better than 50kbps :(
broadbandking
24-09-2009, 12:44
You can if you upgrade
BenRichards
24-09-2009, 12:48
I dont need any more than 10meg downstream though and spending money just to get a tiny bit better upload speed is pointless!
If the 50MB package had 10MB ie (1 mbps) upload then i'd go for it!
pip08456
24-09-2009, 15:17
Be's 20 Mb package gives 1.5Mb upload as standard, the Pro pckage gives 2.5Mb up if you are prepared to sacrafice 2Mb of your download.
I consider this a fair trade off, an extra 1Mb upfor the loss of 2Mb down.
As I am on the 20Mb package Iwould gladly give up 2Mb to get a decent uplod rate but Virgin just don't seem interested in upload rates.
BenRichards
24-09-2009, 15:20
i'd really consider moving to Be but my house doesnt have a bt phone line and i'm not paying BT £125 for the privilege!
broadbandking
24-09-2009, 22:47
Cables network has always been crap for upload,I can see a promising future for upload as Virgin will be using channel bonding for the upstream, which to me means 50Mb will soon have a decent upload speed, as for the other tiers, Virgin really need to clean all AREAS up before they even think about increasing the upload as this will strain the network to the max.
watzizname
25-09-2009, 00:00
I can do nothing more than totally agree with you guys! Do you think tht there is enough demand for virgin to take it a bit more seriously? No more news on the 10mb upload trials mentioned a few week ago :( not gonna be for ages I spose
Unfortunately, i can't really see them providing a 10Mb upload for any of the current tiers.
I think it far more likely (given that it's VM we're talking about) it's destined for use on the eventual XXXL 100Mb or XXXXL ???Mb tier.
Of course, they'll probably have found a way of cutting it down to 5Mb by then, so probably best not to get your hopes up :dozey:
Welshchris
25-09-2009, 00:11
Unfortunately, i can't really see them providing a 10Mb upload for any of the current tiers.
I think it far more likely (given that it's VM we're talking about) it's destined for use on the eventual XXXL 100Mb or XXXXL ???Mb tier.
Of course, they'll probably have found a way of cutting it down to 5Mb by then, so probably best not to get your hopes up :dozey:
they claim to want to provide 200mb by 2012 so they will have to get their act together to provide a decent upload speed by then.
I can't see them increasing the upload rate until 50mbit has been fully rolled out and left a while to make sure it is stable as to do minor alterations. 5mbit would be really good, but the chances of getting 10mbit up is unlikely.
Mind you if VM do the maths and find there is money to be made with faster upload rate, they might create a sub tier like one for 50mbit and another for 50mbit +10mbit upload rate. It would depend how much extra they would charge the users for the 10mbit up though. Mind you I think it would be worth it as I believe there are enough people that want a faster upload rate to make it commerically viable to offer.
AbyssUnderground
25-09-2009, 12:39
I can't see them increasing the upload rate until 50mbit has been fully rolled out and left a while to make sure it is stable as to do minor alterations. 5mbit would be really good, but the chances of getting 10mbit up is unlikely.
Mind you if VM do the maths and find there is money to be made with faster upload rate, they might create a sub tier like one for 50mbit and another for 50mbit +10mbit upload rate. It would depend how much extra they would charge the users for the 10mbit up though. Mind you I think it would be worth it as I believe there are enough people that want a faster upload rate to make it commerically viable to offer.
I would certainly pay more for a higher upload. I'd even sacrifice the 50Mbps down for 10Mbps down and 10Mbps up for the same price. VM just need to listen to their customers and they might actually make some money instead of being in debt.
ferretuk
25-09-2009, 13:03
i'd really consider moving to Be but my house doesnt have a bt phone line and i'm not paying BT £125 for the privilege!
Free if you're quick...
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/deals/free-BT-line-installation#free
broadbandking
25-09-2009, 15:39
I can't see them increasing the upload rate until 50mbit has been fully rolled out and left a while to make sure it is stable as to do minor alterations. 5mbit would be really good, but the chances of getting 10mbit up is unlikely.
Mind you if VM do the maths and find there is money to be made with faster upload rate, they might create a sub tier like one for 50mbit and another for 50mbit +10mbit upload rate. It would depend how much extra they would charge the users for the 10mbit up though. Mind you I think it would be worth it as I believe there are enough people that want a faster upload rate to make it commerically viable to offer.
They have finished the roll out now.
Aye I agree, it'd be nice to have a higher upload
I don't understand why they don't offer "addons" to their cable broadband, for increased upload for £x per month
An upload speed of 10mb would be a godsend for the work I do.
Milambar
05-11-2009, 01:21
Its funny, I have a friend in Bulgaria, yes, Bulgaria of all places who gets 47MB down and 15MB up on a cable network, for LESS than we pay for 10MB down and CRAP up, (altough Im now on 20MB down and 0.5CRAP up). Although I have not been able to verify his claims, I don't speak Bungarian, and can't read Bulgarian ISP webpages.
Yet VM keep telling us it can't be done. Lots of countries are proving them to be liars.
It's because Virgin want us to be slower, it has nothing to do with population density, age and history of infrastructure, Virgin's current upload trials or bumping old threads. Guess you'd better move to Bulgaria..yes Bulgaria.
Ignitionnet
05-11-2009, 10:38
No it's partly history of infrastructure and other things, Virgin never gave a crap about upload speeds because they don't look as good on press releases. Now that BT are making an 'issue' of upload speeds (http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/news/productbriefings/nga/nga04109.do) suddenly Virgin have become more interested. I expect 10Mbps to be rolling out next year along with 100Mbps downstream speeds at very least being strongly considered.
Due to said history of infrastructure and having little central interest in the return / upstream path apart from to keep the downloads going this means Virgin have some work to do in some areas.
I can imagine the engineers listening to the CEO saying that VM were doing 10Mbps upstream trials and saying 'We're doing what?!?!' :D
Im not a greedy man, id be quite happy with 2.5Mb upload on 50Mb :) (5 or 10 for an extra £ per month would be nice as well)
Ignitionnet
05-11-2009, 11:12
With BT offering 10Mbps up on 40Mbps down the CEO however won't. :)
I wonder what the small print is on BT's 10mb up though? It'll probably be traffic managed 24/7, except for port 80
heh
Ignitionnet
05-11-2009, 21:47
I wonder what the small print is on BT's 10mb up though? It'll probably be traffic managed 24/7, except for port 80
heh
I'm not talking about BT the ISP / BT Retail, I'm talking about BT the telco, BT Openreach. ISPs including Be/O2, Andrews and Arnold, and Entanet are some of those involved in delivering the services.
The actual BT controlled bit, from the cabinets back to the exchanges where they are handed off to providers, be it for resale through another division of BT or directly to operators like O2 and Sky who have their own equipment in the exchanges, is totally uncontended 1:1 bandwidth so totally up to the ISP how they deliver the service.
I would be delighted with a higher upload speed even if it was only within Virgins own network. I know several people with 50mb connections now who live within an hour from me, yet when i need to send them something it crawls along at 1.5mb speeds, it's fine for a couple of photos but anything more than a couple of hundred Mb and i might as well burn the files onto DVD and take the disk round myself.
Are there actually any plans to increase the upload speed at all in the next 6 months or so?
Ignitionnet
10-11-2009, 08:25
Yep :)
Broadbandings any chance you could give any more details, whether it is rumours or solid facts, either would be nice.
Ignitionnet
10-11-2009, 10:12
Well CEO already made announcements of trials, which should come to fruition within the 6 month time frame you mentioned.
Sephiroth
10-11-2009, 10:38
Unless there's an accompanying upgrade in VM cable infrastructure, I'm against an increase in upload speeds at this time.
It'll be abused by the same people that abuse download capacity and then complain about their achieved speeds.
Ignitionnet
10-11-2009, 11:03
There will be accompanying modifications, there have to be as the present system just won't support those data rates.
Sephiroth
10-11-2009, 11:21
There will be accompanying modifications, there have to be as the present system just won't support those data rates.
"Accompanying modifications" doesn't sound like "accompanying upgrade".
You prolly know more about the detail than I, but I suspect that the modifications will be around load balancing and other passive measures rather than putting in more routers or whatever at the node.
If you can elaborate on what you think will be the "modifications", people will gain greater understanding of how things work.
Ignitionnet
10-11-2009, 11:38
Increasing upstream channel widths, modulations, and in time bonding of upstreams.
At the moment in virtually all areas apart from trials Virgin run at most with 3.2MHz wide 16QAM channels. One can confirm this by looking at their modem, it will have an upstream modulation and a symbol rate. For 3.2MHz wide channels the symbol rate is 2,560,000 symbols per second, and 16QAM means that that channel is carrying 4 bits of data within each symbol giving a total line rate of 10.24Mbit/s of data. After overheads this translates to about 9Mbps of usable data for each channel which will be shared between however many people.
So long as the networks are of sufficient quality to bear it Virgin can use upstream channels up to 6.4MHz in width and 64QAM modulation - this is a move from the presently used DOCSIS 1.1 upstreams to DOCSIS 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOCSIS). This increases the symbol rate to 5,120,000 symbols / second and 64QAM gives 6 bits per symbol for a line rate of 30.72Mbit/s and a usable rate of 27Mbit/s - triple the capacity of a legacy channel.
Then there's bonding - taking a couple of smaller channels and joining them together to form a larger channel. Where the network isn't of sufficient quality to allow 6.4MHz wide channels to be used Virgin could get the same result from bonding 2 3.2MHz wide channels once the firmware is available to make this possible on their equipment.
The caveat is that wider and higher order modulation (64QAM instead of 16QAM) upstream channels require better SNR and better quality networks to be carried without issues. There is some technology, Pre-Equalisation, which improves things but in some areas it's likely there will have to be some actual network upgrades on the optical networks to increase their capacity as the wider channels may overdrive legacy optical kit in a similar manner to how too much input into an amplifier causes it to overdrive and distort the end signal, along with work on the coaxial networks to remove sources of noise. In addition there may not be room in some networks which have a low upstream spectrum capacity so some upgrades will be needed to increase the amount of upstream spectrum available in these areas through things like changing out diplexers. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplexer)
This is what I meant by modifications, in some cases where the networks are of adequate quality it'll be a case of just configuration changes while in others it'll require some rebuild.
Below in pictorial form is what I was talking about with regarding to the different DOCSIS upstream capacities apart from that data rates are in Mbps not kbps that would be painful indeed.
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2009/11/14.gif
Sephiroth
10-11-2009, 12:07
Now that was a first class explanation. It combines (in detail) what I was saying about upgrades to legacy circuits with one of the best expositions I've seen as to how modulation can be managed according to DOCSIS version.
Well done!
Yeah, even I understood that. I guess people are going to be complaining about their speeds a lot more with narrower margins. What's the downside to using bonding apart from requiring a firmware update ?
Sephiroth
11-11-2009, 11:59
Channel bonding is advantage all the way. However it may be difficult to achieve for users with marginal SNRs because of bandwidth utilisation and the need for fidelity.
I suspect that VM are acting respectibly here (Broadbandings will know more) in that their 200Mbps trials are stressing the infrastructure so that they know what investment is necessary to make it widely available.
Ok so they have 200 Mpbs trials, but chances are they will go from 50mbit to 100mbit first of all. Do you think it is possible to see VM rolling out 100mbit connections within 12 months?
rogerdraig
11-11-2009, 15:02
i asked and he said Mark 13:32 ;)
Ignitionnet
11-11-2009, 16:23
Ok so they have 200 Mpbs trials, but chances are they will go from 50mbit to 100mbit first of all. Do you think it is possible to see VM rolling out 100mbit connections within 12 months?
Yep, BT are doing it and we know how much VM like to stay faster so I would say more than possible, probable.
Openreach to provide 2.5 million homes with access to 100-Mbps connection speeds.
BT on Friday announced it will roll out fibre-to-the-premise (FTTP) to more than double the number of U.K. homes than originally planned.
The increase means that approximately 2.5 million households will have access to broadband speeds of up to 100 Mbps, up from the 1 million that BT's Openreach division initially planned to connect.
---------- Post added at 16:23 ---------- Previous post was at 16:20 ----------
Channel bonding is advantage all the way. However it may be difficult to achieve for users with marginal SNRs because of bandwidth utilisation and the need for fidelity.
I suspect that VM are acting respectibly here (Broadbandings will know more) in that their 200Mbps trials are stressing the infrastructure so that they know what investment is necessary to make it widely available.
Bonding actually reduces the signal requirements by allowing use of less strenuous channel widths and/or modulations for the same results.
200Mbps trials are to test downstream more than upstream and Ashford's performance isn't indicative of the network as a whole. To qualify the network if done properly is a long process involving lots of statistics. A node in Ashford won't assist with that regrettably.
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