View Full Version : Virgin gets done for false advertising
n0c0ntr0l
04-02-2009, 13:50
http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudications/Public/TF_ADJ_45720.htm
Serves them right, they make such a big do about fibre optic, when their service is subject to STM, and the main thing choking the virgin networks is backhaul bandwidth.
Sky challenged whether:
1. the claim "old-fashioned copper phone wires that other broadband companies use, are struggling to cope" in ad (a) was misleading and could be substantiated, because their own broadband network used copper wire and was not struggling to cope with demand;
ASA Response - Complaint UPHELD.
2. ad (a) was misleading, because it implied that Virgin's fibre optic broadband was the solution to the increase in consumer demand for broadband when in fact Virgin operated a traffic management policy which restricted use during peak times, which suggested that its fibre optic system was unable to satisfy the demands of its customers.
ASA Response - Complaint NOT UPHELD.
3. the press cuttings in ads (a) and (b) and the claim "why wait 4 years when you can get/have it now" in ads (c) and (d) gave a misleading impression, because the press cuttings were taken out of context and implied that Virgin Media was already offering the same service as that which BT planned to introduce. Sky believed Virgin only offered fibre optic cable broadband to street cabinets (FTTC), whereas the BT services referred to broadband delivered straight to the home (FTTH) and in ads (c) and (d) were for both FTTC & FTTH.
ASA Response - Complaint UPHELD.
4. the claim "fibre optic broadband is already here and paid for" in ad (b) was misleading, because they believed Virgin Media served only 50% of the UK with fibre optic broadband and would have to invest considerably to achieve nationwide fibre optic coverage as claimed in the ad.
ASA Response - Complaint UPHELD.
5. A member of the public challenged whether the claim "... with the massive growth of the internet, these wires are finding it hard to cope. Which means your broadband can be rather slow." in ad (e) was misleading and could be substantiated.
ASA Response - Complaint UPHELD.
I wonder whether VM has a dedicated case worker at the ASA. :rolleyes:
n0c0ntr0l
04-02-2009, 13:57
I wonder whether VM has a dedicated case worker at the ASA. :rolleyes:
Probably need it with the trouble people have with their false advertising. Especially thwe way they tout fibre optics, seeing as its only FTTC which is physically limited to roughly 400Mb/s (sucks, but electrons aren't anywhere as fast as photons)
Ignitionnet
04-02-2009, 14:23
Probably need it with the trouble people have with their false advertising. Especially thwe way they tout fibre optics, seeing as its only FTTC which is physically limited to roughly 400Mb/s (sucks, but electrons aren't anywhere as fast as photons)
It's not FTTC it's FTTN, and digital TV is bandwidth too, the VM network fires data in the Gbit/s range down, no physical limitation to 400Mbit/s.
Speed it irrelevant, it's all about bandwidth. Optical networks are fast as they use much higher wavelengths and higher bandwidths within those wavelengths than other networks. Theoretical bandwidth on a EuroDOCSIS 3 network is 5.814Gbit/s downstream, 114 x 51Mbit 8MHz channels.
On the other hand, GPON uses a 2.5GHz wide channel for downstream.
It's all about the Hz, FTTH just has more of them :)
rjsetford
04-02-2009, 14:24
Probably need it with the trouble people have with their false advertising. Especially thwe way they tout fibre optics, seeing as its only FTTC which is physically limited to roughly 400Mb/s (sucks, but electrons aren't anywhere as fast as photons)
If i recall correctly, electrons in a copper wire flow at around 8cm an hour, light travels at something like 670,000,000 mph.
Thought that might be of interest
n0c0ntr0l
04-02-2009, 14:34
If i recall correctly, electrons in a copper wire flow at around 8cm an hour, light travels at something like 670,000,000 mph.
Thought that might be of interest
Doesn't work like that... once one elctron moves, causes a knock on effect like dominoes.
As for frequencies, just wait for analogue TV to go away, when it does, we can have fFTTH doing 5gb/s quite easily.
rjsetford
04-02-2009, 14:43
I think it might also depend on whether it's an AC or a DC currant. School was a long time ago to be honest.
Any physicists in?
If i recall correctly, electrons in a copper wire flow at around 8cm an hour, light travels at something like 670,000,000 mph.
Thought that might be of interest
If that had any relevance, it would take ages for the light to come on after you flick the light switch.
Ignitionnet
04-02-2009, 14:47
Doesn't work like that... once one elctron moves, causes a knock on effect like dominoes.
As for frequencies, just wait for analogue TV to go away, when it does, we can have fFTTH doing 5gb/s quite easily.
We have FTTH at the moment that's being held back by analogue TV? :erm:
I must have missed that!
rjsetford
04-02-2009, 14:55
If that had any relevance, it would take ages for the light to come on after you flick the light switch.
No, not really. The electrons are already in the copper ready to flow. They don't move from the light switch to the bulb, they're already at the bulb waiting to be pushed along by the one's behind them.
I also seem to recall that electrons in a copper cable move slightly faster than those in an aluminium one. Something to do with density. I really should google this before I put my foot in it.
Ignitionnet
04-02-2009, 14:58
I think it might also depend on whether it's an AC or a DC currant. School was a long time ago to be honest.
Any physicists in?
No you are right, AC current electrons don't flow down the wire, they oscilate.
Stabhappy
04-02-2009, 14:58
You're contradicting yourself somewhat, you state that electrons move slowly (correct) implying that it would be several magnitudes slower, and that light travels so quickly (again correct) that it would make a noticeable difference to have FTTH than FTTC
rjsetford
04-02-2009, 15:03
You're contradicting yourself somewhat, you state that electrons move slowly (correct) implying that it would be several magnitudes slower, and that light travels so quickly (again correct) that it would make a noticeable difference to have FTTH than FTTC
The funny thing is that I don't even know what FTTH and FTTC stand for! LOL!
Please enlighten.
Like I say above my avatar, I'm a bit new to all this.
---------- Post added at 15:03 ---------- Previous post was at 15:01 ----------
No you are right, AC current electrons don't flow down the wire, they oscilate.
Ah ha! Now I remember build a quad diode bridge rectifier at school (used to turn an AC current in to a DC one).
Ah the memories..........................
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FTTH
The funny thing is that I don't even know what FTTH and FTTC stand for! LOL!
FTTC = Fibre To The Cabinet
FTTH = Fibre To The Home
VM uses FTTC (but not all cabinets, the one at the bottom of your street may be served by copper cable fed from a larger cab elsewhere, which will itself be fed by fibre).
Virgin Media operates what's sometimes known as a HFC (Hybrid Fibre and Cable) network.
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/phy00/phy00989.htm
rjsetford
04-02-2009, 15:12
Thanks Chris and Horace.
You learn something new everyday. :)
Turkey Machine
04-02-2009, 15:17
I think it might also depend on whether it's an AC or a DC currant. School was a long time ago to be honest.
Any physicists in?
You rang? :)
Electricity flows through electrons at the speed of light. Light travels at the speed of light. With me so far?
Electricity through a wire should ideally be done at high voltage and low current so as not to waste energy. The thinner a wire is, the faster the electricity gets pushed through the wire (don't ask me why, it's just the way physics work). Copper's one of the best ways to do this. It's perfect for analogue data. A/C means it flows both ways, D/C just one-way.
Fibre optic is great for digital streams of data, but has the drawback of needing boosting every couple of miles to keep the light up. Conversely, there's no added benefit to either copper or fibre optic except each *******ised company trying to tout the newest technology.
Virgin were right to be punished; around half their network coverage is via phone lines which (correct me if I'm wrong, please) are copper wires. The fact the backbone of their network in the exchanges may be fibre'd up is of no benefit to the consumer.
What has more bandwidth: 10 ethernet cables (each with 4 twisted-pairs of, you guessed it, copper wires) or 10 fibre optic cables? It depends on the equipment it's connected to.
It's why you can get optical cable changers to coax sockets for digital amplifiers. There's virtually no loss in quality.
You rang? :)
Electricity flows through electrons at the speed of light. Light travels at the speed of light. With me so far?
Electricity through a wire should ideally be done at high voltage and low current so as not to waste energy. The thinner a wire is, the faster the electricity gets pushed through the wire (don't ask me why, it's just the way physics work). Copper's one of the best ways to do this. It's perfect for analogue data. A/C means it flows both ways, D/C just one-way.
Fibre optic is great for digital streams of data, but has the drawback of needing boosting every couple of miles to keep the light up. Conversely, there's no added benefit to either copper or fibre optic except each *******ised company trying to tout the newest technology.
Virgin were right to be punished; around half their network coverage is via phone lines which (correct me if I'm wrong, please) are copper wires. The fact the backbone of their network in the exchanges may be fibre'd up is of no benefit to the consumer.
What has more bandwidth: 10 ethernet cables (each with 4 twisted-pairs of, you guessed it, copper wires) or 10 fibre optic cables? It depends on the equipment it's connected to.
It's why you can get optical cable changers to coax sockets for digital amplifiers. There's virtually no loss in quality.
Damn - all that money I wasted putting multiple 1gig fibres into call centres comms rooms from the local BT switches, when I could have just used CAT6 cabling......;)
LondonRoad
04-02-2009, 15:39
Damn - all that money I wasted putting multiple 1gig fibres into call centres comms rooms from the local BT switches, when I could have just used CAT6 cabling......;)
You could have just emptied a couple of buckets of electrons in. They'd have sorted themselves out eventually. :confused::dunce:
You could have just emptied a couple of buckets of electrons in. They'd have sorted themselves out eventually. :confused::dunce:
Nah - the BT switches were downhill.
demented
04-02-2009, 16:15
I think it's fair enough to rap virgin media over STM if it ever claims its system is the solution or that they are unlimited or their competitors are overloaded. All the other points are a load of rubbish imho.
mathiaskt
04-02-2009, 16:28
Well - we seem to forget that fibre itself is not the weakest point here. You can push anything down a fiber (well that is not entirely true but can be marked as true in todays network as the electrical bit at each end of the fibnre connot yet overwhelm the fibre). the limitting fator here is the electrical part (GBIC or SFP, etc...) at the end of each fibre. These electrical bits are the translation between electrical signal and optical signal. Some of these SFP could push data down a fibre for 1000s of km without repeaters. Cisco and Comcast recently tested 100G interface - of course on fibre(http://lw.pennnet.com/display_article/332898/13/ARTCL/none/none/1/Comcast-and-Cisco-demo-100GbE-router-interface/). This speed cannot be optainned using a copper cable unless the law of physics is changed. Having said that, all broadband provider do have fibre somewhere in their network.
The only time in my opinion VM will be right in their ad is when they run fibre to my house. Until then they are just like others - What is the point having 20M or 50M if the minute you use it you are throttled?
alistairgd
04-02-2009, 16:37
I like the bit where VM say they target technically savvy users, that's anyone who knows how to actually use the bandwidth they are paying for apparantly LOL!
Virgin said their traffic management policy was put in place to prevent technically astute individuals from hogging bandwidth on their network, by using high bandwidth applications
Hilarious,
Ignitionnet
04-02-2009, 16:59
FTTC = Fibre To The Cabinet
FTTH = Fibre To The Home
VM uses FTTC (but not all cabinets, the one at the bottom of your street may be served by copper cable fed from a larger cab elsewhere, which will itself be fed by fibre).
Virgin Media operates what's sometimes known as a HFC (Hybrid Fibre and Cable) network.
Quick corrections (sorry).
VM use FTTN - Fibre To The Node / Neighbourhood, to be FTTC requires fibre to the final cabinet before all customers with no other cabinets in between.
HFC means Hybrid Fibre-Coaxial.
Regarding the adjudication itself, the ASA do say some bizarre things as do Virgin in response.
2. Virgin reiterated that it was undisputed that a fibre-based network was the future for delivering broadband in the UK and refuted Sky's contention that they implemented traffic management on their network because it could not cope with demand.
Virgin said their traffic management policy was put in place to prevent technically astute individuals from hogging bandwidth on their network, by using high bandwidth applications, which negatively affected the online experience of their other customers at peak times. They said traffic management affected less than 5% of their subscriber base and was only enforced at peak times, between 4 pm and 9 pm. Virgin said the implementation of their traffic management policy was unrelated to the overall capacity of their fibre-based network.
Bizarre. If there's no capacity issues then why would management be required? If the network could cope with demand surely these 'technically astute individuals' would be causing no problems, as the network could cope with their demands?
The response comes down to it being described as 'fibre optic broadband' - it seems that so long as the fibre portion is not stressed anything else is ignored. I am astounded that the ASA permit it to be called fibre optic broadband and that they allow Virgin Media to ignore any capacity restraints on the non-fibre portion.
Equally I'm surprised that VM openly insult 'technically astute individuals' who will just queue their downloads to kick off from 9:01pm onwards and hammer the network at the back end of the peak load period.
I've spoken with the ASA, good people, but some of their adjudications and justifications are very weird. Nearly as weird as Virgin's response above regarding having no capacity issues needing throttling.
Back on topic then. :)
Here we go again......
What's the point though?
VM have breached ASA rules, but nothing is done about it save a virtual slap on the wrists. The adverts are in the public domain and not recalled, few of those who read them will even know about the upheld complaints, and VM have probably generated some sales. Has the ASA insisted on VM's adverts being passed by the ASA first before dissemination into the media? No. What credibility is there in the ASA judgements then?
It's the standard tug-of-war between Sky and VM that has been the trademark of their relationship since the re-branding.
Ultimately VM appear to have the upper hand in terms of reliability and speed, ADSL in the main doesn't, and won't until a new fibre-optic system is delivered nationwide.
I live close enough to an ADSL2 enabled exchange to get roughly 8Mbs at best, at non peak times, unless BT are prepared to offer a relaible FTTH service, I won't be going there in any hurry.....if at all.
n0c0ntr0l
04-02-2009, 17:21
You rang? :)
Electricity flows through electrons at the speed of light. Light travels at the speed of light. With me so far?
Electricity through a wire should ideally be done at high voltage and low current so as not to waste energy. The thinner a wire is, the faster the electricity gets pushed through the wire (don't ask me why, it's just the way physics work). Copper's one of the best ways to do this. It's perfect for analogue data. A/C means it flows both ways, D/C just one-way.
Fibre optic is great for digital streams of data, but has the drawback of needing boosting every couple of miles to keep the light up. Conversely, there's no added benefit to either copper or fibre optic except each *******ised company trying to tout the newest technology.
Virgin were right to be punished; around half their network coverage is via phone lines which (correct me if I'm wrong, please) are copper wires. The fact the backbone of their network in the exchanges may be fibre'd up is of no benefit to the consumer.
What has more bandwidth: 10 ethernet cables (each with 4 twisted-pairs of, you guessed it, copper wires) or 10 fibre optic cables? It depends on the equipment it's connected to.
It's why you can get optical cable changers to coax sockets for digital amplifiers. There's virtually no loss in quality.
Still wrong, doesn't flow at the speed of light, the way the hall effect works, it stilll takes some time, however light is faster (though how fast it is can also depend on the material used and its refractive index).
As for virgin, their network backhaul is a shambles, over subscribed UBR's plague it, I'm glad I got off ages ago.
and BTW I'm now on Be* Unlimited LLU and get 18Mb/s and I'm 800m from the exchange... so ADSL 2 is fine, long as you got a decent piece of wire, little interferance and a decent LLU provider.
It's a shame really, cable has such good potential, Be* had the network, or maybe Easynet, things would be very different... even if it was shared the way BT do so.
btw, Sky now own EasyNet.
mathiaskt
04-02-2009, 17:32
I have been bouncing in and out VM or should I say Telewest. Live about 900m from the exchange and got 16M connection and could get 12M download consistently. Looking to go back to BE very soon as my contract ends.
btw, Sky now own EasyNet.
Yep, have owned it for about 2 years roughly? They offer some very competitive ADSL bundled deals. Not sure its making them much money, but its all about triple pay.
---------- Post added at 18:10 ---------- Previous post was at 18:09 ----------
I have been bouncing in and out VM or should I say Telewest. Live about 900m from the exchange and got 16M connection and could get 12M download consistently. Looking to go back to BE very soon as my contract ends.
It's a buyers market :)
alistairgd
04-02-2009, 18:44
Back on topic then. :)
Here we go again......
What's the point though?
VM have breached ASA rules, but nothing is done about it save a virtual slap on the wrists. The adverts are in the public domain and not recalled, few of those who read them will even know about the upheld complaints, and VM have probably generated some sales. Has the ASA insisted on VM's adverts being passed by the ASA first before dissemination into the media? No. What credibility is there in the ASA judgements then?
Well, you should ask ASA that question. Wait, you don't have to, I already did! Well, that would be if I hadn't lost their reply :mad: How frustrating.
Anyway, they do reply, and the address is enquiries@asa.org.uk
I'm sure the Murdoch press will devote some space to reporting this.
Ignitionnet
04-02-2009, 21:11
I'm sure the Murdoch press will devote some space to reporting this.
Nope that doesn't happen.
mathiaskt
05-02-2009, 10:03
Not sure if BT switched-on project (www.switchedonuk.org) also includes phone cable replacement.
This would certainly makes VM wakes up to reality.
Ignitionnet
05-02-2009, 10:10
Not sure if BT switched-on project (www.switchedonuk.org) also includes phone cable replacement.
This would certainly makes VM wakes up to reality.
That's just a BT core network change - instead of using legacy phone switches and ATM they are migrating to software switches and all-IP network.
It doesn't include any kind of fibre in the loop (FITL) deployment.
KingDaveRa
05-02-2009, 19:40
If i recall correctly, electrons in a copper wire flow at around 8cm an hour...
So THAT's why my download was slow! It's probably only gotten as far as the path outside.
;)
Welshchris
05-02-2009, 23:58
LOL! at this, i brought a few of these facts up with Virgin Media weeks ago when i complained about issues i was getting and i was told by a woman that i quote "All of our advertisements are checked by the ASA before we issue them" LOL! even that is a lie LOL!.
spiderplant
06-02-2009, 08:06
LOL! at this, i brought a few of these facts up with Virgin Media weeks ago when i complained about issues i was getting and i was told by a woman that i quote "All of our advertisements are checked by the ASA before we issue them" LOL! even that is a lie LOL!.
It's almost the truth. The ads are pre-checked by CAP, who are closely aligned to the ASA.
http://www.cap.org.uk/cap/
Welshchris
06-02-2009, 13:38
It's almost the truth. The ads are pre-checked by CAP, who are closely aligned to the ASA.
http://www.cap.org.uk/cap/
if thats the case why did they pass it when it broke regulations?
FTTC = Fibre To The Cabinet
FTTH = Fibre To The Home
VM uses FTTC (but not all cabinets, the one at the bottom of your street may be served by copper cable fed from a larger cab elsewhere, which will itself be fed by fibre).
Virgin Media operates what's sometimes known as a HFC (Hybrid Fibre and Cable) network.
To be pedantic VM offer FTTN, Fibre to the Node.
Each node, and I talking exCabletel build, was approx 500homes.
The Nodal cab would then serve several smaller cabs which in turn served many other much smaller cabs. All cabling from the Nodal cab onwards is copper.
Anyway, the bottom line is VM is much faster than Sky. So Sky can moan about whatever they want that single fact remains.
To be pedantic VM offer FTTN, Fibre to the Node.
Each node, and I talking exCabletel build, was approx 500homes.
The Nodal cab would then serve several smaller cabs which in turn served many other much smaller cabs. All cabling from the Nodal cab onwards is copper.
I've been spanked over that twice now ... :sulk: :D
btw, Sky now own EasyNet.
Correct or SNS Sky Network Services - as they are now known by.
Just means they have their own Fibre Optic national network for backhaul, but they still have to use BTs access network.
Also much of their national fibre network is either contained within VMs infrastructure and/or maintained by VM.
---------- Post added at 14:57 ---------- Previous post was at 14:53 ----------
Fibre optic is great for digital streams of data, but has the drawback of needing boosting every couple of miles to keep the light up.
Wildly inaccurate.
Light travelling along a fibre optic only needs regenerating, typically, every 70km.
Amplified systems can go as far as 230km in one hop.
Ignitionnet
06-02-2009, 15:34
Also much of their national fibre network is either contained within VMs infrastructure and/or maintained by VM.
Not the case. Sky's fibre network was bought from Easynet, which in turn was born out of a merger between Ipsaris, a 90% owned subsidiary of Marconi, and Easynet.
This is the second largest core fibre network in the UK behind BT at 350,000 route KM of fibre.
It's certainly not largely maintained by or contained within VM infrastructure, it predates Virgin Media's component companies being a result of deals between Ipsaris and British Waterways. It's contained within formerly Ipsaris ducting.
Not the case. Sky's fibre network was bought from Easynet, which in turn was born out of a merger between Ipsaris, a 90% owned subsidiary of Marconi, and Easynet.
This is the second largest core fibre network in the UK behind BT at 350,000 route KM of fibre.
It's certainly not largely maintained by or contained within VM infrastructure, it predates Virgin Media's component companies being a result of deals between Ipsaris and British Waterways. It's contained within formerly Ipsaris ducting.
Sorry, it is the case.
I know of the history I was around when it was built. Actually the first incarnation of the company was "Fibreway" before it was renamed as Ipsaris.
I'll lay it out.
Easynet Core Fibre Backbone sections contained within Virgin Media duct and/or VM Fibre cable..
1. Glasgow to Carlisle
2. Edinburgh to Leeds
3. Leicester to Telehouse London.
4. Newbury to Slough
5. Reading to Colnbrook
6. Long Eaton to Solihull
7. Birmingham to Solihull
8. Tardebigge to Bristol Aztec
That's off the top of my head, If I have a real look at my records I would come up with more and on most of those routes VM maintains the fibre too.
Also in regards to size of Core fibre backbone, pre merger:
Telewest = 243,993 km
ntl = 259,554km
You do the math.
Ignitionnet
06-02-2009, 16:45
I'm quite interested now - are you saying that Fibreway / Ipsaris fibre alongside the waterways runs inside VM ducts?
Why do Easynet have an optical department and spent money on renewing fibre if large parts are VM maintained, and used Marconi engineers for onsite work rather than VM engineers if it's maintained by VM?
I'm actually genuinely interested, I welcome correction if I'm wrong so please do lay it out :)
There has been considerable activity in relation to canals. On 6 March 1997, Fibreway Ltd. announced the commencement of an optical fibre link along canal towpaths. Fibreway argue that these offer one of the UK's largest continuous and secure wayleaves, without risk from maintenance work.
In August 1998 Fibreway announced that its network of canalside cables was complete. The network covers 10,000km and carries services between eight major cities, the so-called "Figure of 8" (London, Bristol, Gloucester, Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, Nottingham, Birmingham). Spurs to the network will connect Edinburgh and Glasgow and also the Basingstoke corridor.
The fibre is being leased to the operators Telewest and TANet Ltd.
Googling shows nothing bar Fibreway leasing to others, indeed they are described as the first Dark Fibre Leasing Network in the UK.
Ignitionnet
06-02-2009, 16:50
Topic? ;)
Was boring and a flamefest, this is educational. :)
Was boring and a flamefest, this is educational. :)
True, true........ :D
I'm quite interested now - are you saying that Fibreway / Ipsaris fibre alongside the waterways runs inside VM ducts?
Why do Easynet have an optical department and spent money on renewing fibre if large parts are VM maintained, and used Marconi engineers for onsite work rather than VM engineers if it's maintained by VM?
I'm actually genuinely interested, I welcome correction if I'm wrong so please do lay it out :)
No, not along the waterways - in fact the sections along the Grand Union Canal and the Nottingham Canal, VM actually take fibres from Easynet that form part of the VM Core Network.
VM don't maintain the optical kit. VM maintain the actual fibre (on the sections I have outlined) So if the Easynet cable is damaged it is VM field teams that would go out and repair the fibre cable.
The Sky (easynet) NOC will contact the VM NOC and advise that they have a fibre damage and then the VM NOC will manage the fault until the fibre is repaired.
All the major telco companies are in bed with with each other when it comes to fibre infrastructure
The VM Core Network carries backhaul for the Core Networks of these carriers (not bandwith but actual physical fibre)
Global Crossing
BT Global Services
Reliance
TATA
Level 3
Easynet
Gamma
C&W
Surf
to name a few and, in the main, vice versa
Ignitionnet
06-02-2009, 17:08
OK Thanks Antoine I'm getting a better idea now - I think I took what you said a bit too extremely. Of course all the carriers are in bed with one another to plug their gaps in their respective networks, far cheaper than own buildouts. I thought you were suggesting that VM ran a good part of the Easynet network.
I now understand - thank you for the information.
Topic? ;)
Considering it was VM's fibre claims that got them in trouble, I think we can allow this as only a minor diversion. ;)
Its not false advertising at all, Ofcom and BT just dont like being shown up in front of Europe, they still dont even offer ADSL in my area and i'm in Central London! Virgin Media have been able to provide Fibre optic cable broadband since 2001 in my area, that just shows how outdated BT's network is!
Its not false advertising at all, Ofcom and BT just dont like being shown up in front of Europe, they still dont even offer ADSL in my area and i'm in Central London! Virgin Media have been able to provide Fibre optic cable broadband since 2001 in my area, that just shows how outdated BT's network is!
Well the ASA would argue that to a point it is false advertising, especially when VM compare parts of their service to other providers.
As mentioned before though,the main complainers were Sky, and they scored 3 of 4 hits against Virgin this time, but in my opinion the damage was done. Horses and closed gates come to mind.
Its not false advertising at all, Ofcom and BT just dont like being shown up in front of Europe, they still dont even offer ADSL in my area and i'm in Central London! Virgin Media have been able to provide Fibre optic cable broadband since 2001 in my area, that just shows how outdated BT's network is!
Really? So there's nowhere on the VM network that can't deliver broadband, then? :dozey:
if you can get bt you can get some sort of slow bb unless you live next door to the exchange you could get full adsl2 line speeds, i find it hard that you cant get broadband in london on an bt line as most users there do get high speed ADSL there
topic went way off an bit its is true it is fiber to the green boxs (the Big ones that hum away) the cable that comes to your house can very like handle very fast speeds as its only an 8mhz range per channel and the new 50mb modems support 4 bond links so they can do 200mb right now (but you need an new router as the one they supply has only 100mb ports {max 100mb bb} you cant even use all of the 300mb wireless speed (140 real) as network ports can only do 100mb/s but thay do cost alot the gigabit port ones)
Well BT,Orange and Tiscali said it isnt possible, it depends how far we are from the phone exchange.
Everyone close by to me is using Virgin Broadband,Dial up services and Mobile broadband services.
Considering its London, the borough at the end of my street is Westminster which is the busiest of areas and has many businesses and residential properties. The highest BT can offer in Mayfair is 6MB! Mayfair is supposed to be the richest part of the country, meanwhile Virgin can offer 3 times that but cannot offer Digital TV yet and Virgin are not allowed to offer Telephone either because of BT. Westminster council also restricts most properties from having satellite dishes and aerials too.
Westminster's cable network is owned by BT and Virgin's leasing it, and BT are taking there time coming up with a plan to upgrade it to Digital, they have made some negotiations with the Milton Keynes franchise so that might go Digital soon. Westminster can get Cable Broadband in most areas.
Now Virgin Media's Telephone network in Westminster is another long story. In 1994, Videotron decided to expand its network into Westminster and the City of London, however,it was only allowed to expand its Telephone network, the stupid goverment and stubborn Westminster council wouldnt allow Videotron to build its fibre optic Cable network through this area because BT already offered it however its very outdated! Videotron then intended to offer Vod and Freeview and basic telephone and ADSL services similar to BT Vision. They only got round to offering Telephone to Residents and businesses. Videotron then merged with Cable and Wireless, Cable and Wireless already had a telephone network(Mercury) in these areas which meant a competition issue sprouted up, therefore they where only allowed to take on residential customers after 1997.
BT then sold off its Cable customer base to NTL in 2000 and NTL began to lease that part of the network. The terms and Conditions of that lease by BT said that NTL could not offer Telephone to Cable users in the borough, whether this has changed over the years I dont know. 2005 came and NTL was able to offer Cable Broadband to some of the Borough. This means that people can get rid of there BT line and use something like Vonage,A Voip service since a BT line is not needed for Broadband!
I think its terrible that companies like BT still manage to control the majority of telecoms providers even though BT's powers where taken over by Oftel. And who looses out? 'Residents and Businesses'
According to a Cable forum user, BT have offered Virgin Media an upgrade to the Milton Keynes network for £3 Million. Any news on Westminster?
And Virgin should be able to provide Broadband even if its an Analogue only area, regardless of that BT is supposed to be the god of UK telecoms yet it cant even offer people 128K broadband to some streets, very disappointing!
Ignitionnet
15-02-2009, 19:46
BT aren't the God of my left clagnut telecomms let alone the UK. This is the bunch of cretins who borrow money for the sole purposes of paying a bigger dividend and trying, and failing abysmally, to prop up their own share price while whinging about how expensive FTTH is.
They make Virgin Media look like a paragon of industry, risk taking, and entrepeneurship.
There are a number of LLU operators in the Mayfair exchange.
They do,but people arent getting as high as advertised.
By the way BT has now been given the ability to charge the users of its network what ever it likes, Ofcom has relaxed yet again more regulations it holds over BT,yet again destroying free competition and enterprise.
That means when residential users sign up to something like TalkTalk phone and broadband or Sky Talk and Broadband and pay their line rental directly to them, BT is gonna increase the cost of the wholesale line rental, therefore these charges will obviously be passed on to the customer.
This is probably a technique to make everyone switch back to BT.
Just like they did with the marketing for 'free calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers'
Ignitionnet
18-02-2009, 16:16
They do,but people arent getting as high as advertised.
By the way BT has now been given the ability to charge the users of its network what ever it likes, Ofcom has relaxed yet again more regulations it holds over BT,yet again destroying free competition and enterprise.
That means when residential users sign up to something like TalkTalk phone and broadband or Sky Talk and Broadband and pay their line rental directly to them, BT is gonna increase the cost of the wholesale line rental, therefore these charges will obviously be passed on to the customer.
This is probably a technique to make everyone switch back to BT.
Not really - these charges will be Ofcom approved still. They are charged by BT Openreach to everyone so result in increased costs for BT Wholesale, and hence their main customer BT Retail.
To be honest there's considerable evidence that WLR was too cheap. BT haven't arbitrarily increased these costs Ofcom increased the cap that Openreach could charge.
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