View Full Version : NTL Business STM
MagicMan
26-01-2009, 10:04
Hi all
Not posted for a while but here goes.... I've recently had a 10Mb NTL Business connection installed through work (so I can access VPN etc...). Not wanting to see the connection wasted I have been using newsgroups quite a bit. For the first few weeks after install, I was never getting STM applied and I thought that was because it was a business account and it must have been immune. Over the past week or so, STM has become an issue and my download rate has slowed to 250 (ish) KB/s. Last night, after sitting at around the 250KB/s mark for a couple of hours, it slowed to 60KB/s and remained that way all night (from 10pm until 7am). Has anybody else experienced anything odd like this? Is this normal?
Thanks
Not STM... Sounds like more congestion or a problem with the line... What was your upload at this point in time? Also did you try any speed tests or downloading from any other sources...
MagicMan
26-01-2009, 11:56
Thanks Kymmy. It was a constant 60KB/s, the same as it would be with STM. I didnt bother trying speedtests, I left my news program downloading over night thinking that if it was STM, it would pick up speed after a few hours but it stayed at a constant speed. I wasnt uploading anything, just downloading from my USENET host (using SSL not that that should make any difference).
I've seen congestion where it will burst up to 1MB/s and then drop and then pick up etc... but never where it stays at a constant low speed for such a long time. I will obviously have another look when I get home but I'm expecting 10Mb again for a bit until I get STM'd down to 2.5Mb. What are the hours for STM for business? Are they the same as residential (4pm - 9pm)?
broadbandking
26-01-2009, 12:04
As far as I can see the times would be the same but I dont think the business side has STM but I am use a res service hopefully Kymmy can confirm this.
MagicMan
26-01-2009, 12:10
I've had a quick look at the NTL Business website and it states
Unmetered and 'always-on' connection - no usage restrictions or caps**.
But then the small print says "Subject to acceptable usage policy"
The 250KB/s speed that it goes down to is consistent with STM on a 10Mb connection but the 60KB/s is unsual to say the least. I'll be doing more checking when I get home but I'm puzzled at the moment.
There is no STM for Business broadband.
If Business was STM'd then the up/down would be 192Kb/2.5Mb...not any other firgure and it wouldn't go down in stages...
Also Stephen says that there is no STM for business users and I kinda trust his judgement in this case ;)
The AUP is only there to stop the idiots from using the connection for spamming/abusing purposes though Paragraph 7 does state their FUP I've never yet heard of it being imposed..mainly as they'd soon lose their business customers..
If/when your connection drops again try the usual speed tests from various sources, downloading from the VM servers and also grab a copy of the up/down/config pages of the modem..
MagicMan
26-01-2009, 13:36
I'll keep my eye on things later and be back with some speed test results and modem readings etc...
Thanks everybody for your advice so far :)
MagicMan
26-01-2009, 19:10
Ok so I got home and fired up Newsleecher, was getting 1MB/s when I started downloading, after 5 minutes - 60KB/s.
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2009/01/2.jpg
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2009/01/3.jpg
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2009/01/4.jpg
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2009/01/5.jpg
Sorry for the images - anybody have any ideas?
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2009/01/4.png (http://www.speedtest.net)
Just did a disconnect and then a reconnect in Newsleecher and I'm back at 1.05MB/s......this is getting weirder lol
I'm going to contact my USENET provider and see what they have to say, doing some tests from the Virgin Media server as well
Turkey Machine
26-01-2009, 19:51
That downstream powerlevel seems quite high. Anybody else agree?
MagicMan
26-01-2009, 21:12
I've tried different servers (SSL and non SSL) US and Europe and still this 60KB/s kicks in after around 5 minutes of connecting. If i then disconnect and reconnect, I'm back to 1MB/s for 5 (ish) minutes and then down again. Mys USENET provider is a rebranded Highwinds connection and looking at a trace route, Virgin connect directly to them, with no hopes via any third party. Their tech support tell me that they have no issues and my account has no problems etc. etc. etc.
AbyssUnderground
26-01-2009, 21:20
Sounds like Virgin have implemented DPI and throttling based on the application, as you're not the first to report this happening after around 5 minutes, it even happens on 50Mbps for at least one person.
Well done Virgin, you just screwed yourselves over... again...
MagicMan
26-01-2009, 21:38
Sounds like Virgin have implemented DPI and throttling based on the application
I didnt want to mention the dreaded DPI. Can anybody back this up?
AbyssUnderground
26-01-2009, 21:40
I didnt want to mention the dreaded DPI. Can anybody back this up?
It would be impossible to back this up without either inside information or extensive tests using a variety of protocols and ports...
hokkers999
27-01-2009, 00:22
It would be impossible to back this up without either inside information or extensive tests using a variety of protocols and ports...
Not true, simply connect over the VPN. If you do that VM have zero idea what the content is. If your work won't allow it try here www.swissvpn.net
Ignitionnet
27-01-2009, 10:00
I've tried different servers (SSL and non SSL) US and Europe and still this 60KB/s kicks in after around 5 minutes of connecting. If i then disconnect and reconnect, I'm back to 1MB/s for 5 (ish) minutes and then down again. Mys USENET provider is a rebranded Highwinds connection and looking at a trace route, Virgin connect directly to them, with no hopes via any third party. Their tech support tell me that they have no issues and my account has no problems etc. etc. etc.
Did you get the same results from the Virgin newsgroups?
MagicMan
27-01-2009, 10:16
Work definitely would NOT allow me to use their VPN for that kind of thing, besides they only have a 10Mb pipe anyway so I'd use up all the bandwidth. I may look into that VPN site that you suggested. I also found a couple of others that I'm looking into some of which offer a free trial so more testing is called for tonight :)
---------- Post added at 10:16 ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 ----------
Did you get the same results from the Virgin newsgroups?
I dont think I left it running long enough on the VM newsgroups but whilst I was watching it, it seemed to stick at 1Mb/s. I'm going to run them again later this evening, I'll probably start timing it as well to see how long it takes for the speed to bomb.
I need to test VM news servers, my USENET providers servers and then do both again over whichever VPN and see what happens.
Interestingly, I have just done some trace routes (albeit from work) and both hostnames (for my USENET provider and VM) both resolve to the same IP address/server.
Never had a problem here with my current astranews or my previous powerusenet (giganews reseller)
MagicMan
27-01-2009, 11:18
How strange. Maybe I need to switch providers and see what happens, its due at the end of the month I think.
I'm doing some more testing later, involving HTTP downloads from Microsoft and then FTP from some ac.uk site to grab an Ubuntu distro. Then maybe a torrent download (of Ubuntu again) and back onto newsgroups (Virgin and my paid provider).
Should keep me busy lol
Try giving faults a ring and see if they can help identify the issue.
MagicMan
27-01-2009, 12:16
What information will faults need? I dont have the account number (as its via work) but I will have the MAC address of the router and the hostname.
broadbandbug
27-01-2009, 13:21
There is no STM for Business broadband.
There is STM on Business 20Mb/s Broadband.. 4Mb/s and 10Mb/s Business Broadband STM is still being trialled as far as I know. So that would mean if you are on 4Mb/s or 10Mb/s BBroadband in Wigan/Preston you will get STMd
MagicMan
27-01-2009, 13:25
I'm near Altrincham which isnt a massive distance from VM in Baguley, definitely wouldnt come under the umbrella of Wigan or Preston.
broadbandbug
27-01-2009, 13:27
I'm near Altrincham which isnt a massive distance from VM in Baguley, definitely wouldnt come under the umbrella of Wigan or Preston.
If you are not on 20Mb/s Bus Broadband then in your case it is not STM that is slowing you down.
MagicMan
27-01-2009, 13:33
Thats what I understood, as per the posts from Stephen and Kymmy. There's obviously something more to it, I guess if all else fails, I will post on the VM newsgroups and see if anybody can shed some light.
What information will faults need? I dont have the account number (as its via work) but I will have the MAC address of the router and the hostname.
If you don't have the account number then your address details should be able to get your account info on the system.
MagicMan
27-01-2009, 14:00
Cool, thanks for that. It might be worth a call if this issue continues.
MagicMan
27-01-2009, 18:47
Ok so I tried using Relakks (VPN) and speeds were hovering around 600KB/s (I didnt expect full 1MB/s) and then after 5 minutes 60KB/s. VM Newsgroups here I come :)
Just as a side note, I had downloaded less than 200MB when the speed restriction hit.
**EDIT** Virgin Media newsgroups are fine and no speed drop is evident. Very weird considering that my provider is on the same server farm as the vm ones so the traffic essentially takes the same path......
**EDIT 2** Tried connecting via IP instead of hostname and it made no difference. Still drops to 60KB/s after 200MB.
cook1984
27-01-2009, 23:22
There is STM on business packages, but it's different to the residential ones.
Since businesses hammer their connections during the day (we download gigabytes and gigabytes all day long 9AM to 5.30PM) there is no STM during business hours. However, there is STM from 6pm to 11pm.
The limit is not published anywhere but appears to be around the 4-5GB download mark for 20 meg. I'm not sure if uploading counts; we have done some off-site backups in the 3GB range before and it seems to be entire random if we get STM'ed.
On 20meg STM speeds appear to be around 4Mb down and 200k up.
We asked VM about it but they would not tell us, apparently it's some kind of secret. Luckily we can inform all our corporate customers about our own experiences. VM take note: there's nothing like a bit of uncertainty and doubt to make people buy your product.
MagicMan
28-01-2009, 07:00
Ok so I did a bit more playing around last night. When I was using 20 connections to my news provider, the speed dropped to 60KB/s. I cut the number of connections to 10 thinking that may make a difference, and my speed dropped to 30KB/s. When I used 2 connections, my speed dropped to 6KB/s...... 6!!!!!!
Each connection goes to 3KB/s and stays there......gonna call them today, tried the VM support news groups last night but they just support residential connections.
MagicMan
28-01-2009, 10:18
Before I left for work this morning, I had a quick go to see if the speed was different in the morning and lo and behold, over 20 minutes of downloading at a constant 1MB/s.
If its not STM, its traffic shaping/application management ........ whatever you want to call it, capping I would say.
hokkers999
28-01-2009, 10:19
Ok so I tried using Relakks (VPN) and speeds were hovering around 600KB/s (I didnt expect full 1MB/s) and then after 5 minutes 60KB/s. VM Newsgroups here I come :)
Just as a side note, I had downloaded less than 200MB when the speed restriction hit.
**EDIT** Virgin Media newsgroups are fine and no speed drop is evident. Very weird considering that my provider is on the same server farm as the vm ones so the traffic essentially takes the same path......
**EDIT 2** Tried connecting via IP instead of hostname and it made no difference. Still drops to 60KB/s after 200MB.
Well if you went via a VPN connection that would rule out application throttling....
MagicMan
28-01-2009, 10:46
Yeah, of course it would cause they would just see the tunnel as a single connection and not the multiple NNTP connections.
Still makes me wonder exactly what is going on when I can connect to the same IP address for news yet if I login (as a customer of my paid provider) I get nailled but if I dont login (as a Virgin Media) customer, my speed doesnt suffer at all. It doesnt matter either if I use the standard port for NNTP or any of the others that are offered as options by my news provider (including SSL), unless I'm seen as a Virgin Customer - I get restricted rapidly to dial up speeds.
Could that indicate DPI? If i use an unencrypted connection (ie connect without a password to the standard NNTP port or without going via VPN) then Virgin can see the traffic and do as they see fit? If I use a VPN or SSL to connect then they cant see into it using DPI and restrict it?
hokkers999
28-01-2009, 12:00
[snip] Could that indicate DPI? If i use an unencrypted connection (ie connect without a password to the standard NNTP port or without going via VPN) then Virgin can see the traffic and do as they see fit? If I use a VPN or SSL to connect then they cant see into it using DPI and restrict it?
Now there's a thought. Is VM's network capable of doing that?
MagicMan
28-01-2009, 12:27
There has been talk of DPI technologies being used with a lot of large ISP's although I dont think any of them publicly admit to it.
DPI is capable of seeing inside all internet traffic unless it is encrypted (like on a VPN or SSL connections).
Although the speed is restricted when I connect to my news provider using an unencrypted connection as well as over SSL or VPN.
hokkers999
28-01-2009, 13:04
There has been talk of DPI technologies being used with a lot of large ISP's although I dont think any of them publicly admit to it.
DPI is capable of seeing inside all internet traffic unless it is encrypted (like on a VPN or SSL connections).
Although the speed is restricted when I connect to my news provider using an unencrypted connection as well as over SSL or VPN.
What I meant was is their setup sophisticated enough to do this IF unencrypted full speed traffic ELSE cap to some pathetically slow speed ENDIF
MagicMan
28-01-2009, 13:32
What I meant was is their setup sophisticated enough to do this IF unencrypted full speed traffic ELSE cap to some pathetically slow speed ENDIF
Ohhh, sorry. I dont see why not, if it could be sophisticated enough to do IF application=bittorrent THEN throttle. Then it would be perfectly possible to throttle based on enrypted headers.
MagicMan
29-01-2009, 09:34
*UPDATE
Spoke with Tech Support briefly who explained that there were no issues etc... Got home and, without wishing to tempt fate, everything ran fine all night with no speed drops at all. :)
Wonder if there was a fault and it was fixed or if something else was causing an issue. Nothing has changed on my machine or network so must have been and issue somewhere else.
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