Terrible speeds, Virgin won't do anything about it. Any suggestions?

[qasdfdsaq]

Well the background to this is that I upgraded from 2 meg to 10 meg recently, and since then I've been getting utterly rubbish speeds, especially in the evenings. I'm getting about 1.5mbit/sec on Speedtest.net's tests, and about 0.5mbit/sec on VM's 50 meg speed test. It's OK in the mornings (before 12pm) but from then on it just goes downhill and stays crap until well past midnight.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2009/10/26.png

Download #5
------------------------------------------------------------------
File size transferred : 10.0 MB (10485760 bytes)
Total time taken : 162.53 seconds (162531 milliseconds)
Throughput : 64.0 KB/sec [Kilobyte-per-second]
= 0.06 MB/sec [Megabyte-per-second]
= 512.0 Kbps [Kilobit-per-second]
= 0.51 Mbps [Megabit-per-second]

Download #6
------------------------------------------------------------------
File size transferred : 10.0 MB (10485760 bytes)
Total time taken : 155.41 seconds (155409 milliseconds)
Throughput : 67.0 KB/sec [Kilobyte-per-second]
= 0.07 MB/sec [Megabyte-per-second]
= 536.0 Kbps [Kilobit-per-second]
= 0.54 Mbps [Megabit-per-second]

Download #7
------------------------------------------------------------------
File size transferred : 10.0 MB (10485760 bytes)
Total time taken : 143.6 seconds (143601 milliseconds)
Throughput : 73.0 KB/sec [Kilobyte-per-second]
= 0.07 MB/sec [Megabyte-per-second]
= 584.0 Kbps [Kilobit-per-second]
= 0.58 Mbps [Megabit-per-second]

Download #8
------------------------------------------------------------------
File size transferred : 10.0 MB (10485760 bytes)
Total time taken : 163.89 seconds (163894 milliseconds)
Throughput : 63.0 KB/sec [Kilobyte-per-second]
= 0.06 MB/sec [Megabyte-per-second]
= 504.0 Kbps [Kilobit-per-second]
= 0.5 Mbps [Megabit-per-second]I'm definately not STM'd, as can be seen from both the upload speed, and the fact that I get about 3.5mbit/sec with ten concurrent connections. Web browsing is horrendously slow, and downloads usually go at around 0.3-0.5mbit/sec from various sites, including my university whose network has a direct peering with VM.

Traceroute suggests that the congestion is at the most local part of the network:

1 <1 ms 1 ms 1 ms 192.168.1.1
2 56 ms 57 ms 57 ms 10.123.192.1
3 52 ms * 136 ms 62-31-64-41.cable.ubr06.brad.blueyonder.co.uk [6.31.64.41]
4 40 ms 34 ms 41 ms lee-bb-b-ge-300-0.network.virginmedia.net [195.12.178.94]
5 40 ms 38 ms 29 ms nth-bb-a-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net [213.105.75.133]
6 41 ms 42 ms 39 ms nth-bb-b-ae0-0.network.virginmedia.net [62.253.15.118]
7 53 ms * 70 ms tele-ic-1-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net [62.253.184.2]

...etcLast I recall the first hop should be around 6-8ms, and no more than 10ms, but as you can see it's hitting over 50. No difference when the machine is connected directly to the modem and/or when the modem is restarted, etc. etc.

Now, the problem is VM is refusing to do anything about it. They won't speak to me, because I am not the account holder (the landlord's boyfriend is). They won't speak to him, because he doesn't live here and can't be here to test it out on the phone with them. Given that there is definately a problem here, is there anything anyone could suggest to get this damn thing fixed? The problems seem to coincide/alleviate with the students returning to this part of town for the start of term so it would suggest that it's a chronically oversubscribed UBR or something. Why I'm on "cable.ubr06.brad" is beyond me though, I'm in Edinburgh...

Thanks in advance for any help.

[Edit]

Thought I should add, modem's stats seem perfectly fine, though correct me if I'm wrong


Downstream Channel
The data shown in the table below provides information about the signal coming from the network to your cable modem.

Downstream Status
Operational Channel ID
0 Downstream Frequency
331000000 Hz Modulation
256QAM Bit Rate
10240000 bits/sec Power Level
13.9 dBmV Signal to Noise Ratio
37.2 dB Upstream Channel
The data shown in the table below provides information about the signal being transmitted to the network from your cable modem.
Upstream Status
Operational Channel ID
2 Upstream Frequency
22200000 Hz Modulation
16QAM Bit Rate
512000 bits/sec Power Level
32.0 dBmV

[General Maximus]

check your power levels http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12/26006-cable-modem-signal-levels.html and post them, I am sure axegrinder or someone will digest them for you :)

The other thing you can do is post a message in the newsgroups with the all relevant info of the account holder and hopefully they can fix it remotely for you without any further verification.

[Peter_]

Power Level 13.9 dBmV is to high and will need a call to Technical support to book an engineer visit to get it sorted.

151 option 3 or 0845 454 1111 option 3.

[qasdfdsaq]

The connection is stable (no loss, no drops) just slow. The link General Maximum gave says "For this modulation the recommended power range is -6dBmV to +15dBmV with a recommended SNR of 33dB." - I've got 13.9dBmV and 37.2dB SNR - perfect according to that post?

Is quoting this number going to be enough? As I've said, they won't deal with me directly and the account holder doesn't live anywhere near here. I can give him the numbers if VM are likely to do anything about it?

[Peter_]

The connection is stable (no loss, no drops) just slow. The link General Maximum gave says "For this modulation the recommended power range is -6dBmV to +15dBmV with a recommended SNR of 33dB." - I've got 13.9dBmV and 37.2dB SNR - perfect according to that post?

Is quoting this number going to be enough? As I've said, they won't deal with me directly and the account holder doesn't live anywhere near here. I can give him the numbers if VM are likely to do anything about it?
You are an EX Telewest customer so your downstream should be below 12dBmv not above, and as the is a fault if you call Virgin they should still deal with you as you are not trying to change account details just report a fault that needs fixing.

[qasdfdsaq]

The linked post says "Both Telewest and ntl", but I'll give it another go in the morning, see if they'll listen this time...

As for the newsgroups, aren't posts made there public? Wouldn't I then be posting the account holder's personal details on a public group?

[Stabhappy]

There shouldn't be an issue with reporting a problem as Moldova has stated, think of it as getting a neighbor or relative to contact BT about phone issues.

[qasdfdsaq]

OK, I've just spoken to them again, they reluctantly spoke to me after I gave the account holders details. But they did nothing, and claimed there was nothing wrong - and that the modem signal levels are perfectly fine... Any further ideas? :-/

[Stabhappy]

Use the newsgroups.

[qasdfdsaq]

OK will do. Thanks. What account holder details will I need to post? Name, address, acc no. I assume, anything else?

[moaningmags]

Only a username, never post account details or names or addresses.
If they can't find you from your post, they'll ask you to mail your modem mac address to their email address.

[qasdfdsaq]

Thanks again. I've posted in the newsgroups, lets see what they say...

[Magilla]

I'm in the same boat, speed is consistantly below 512Kb every night with massive packet loss, often below 250Kbs. Has been like this for over 4 months. UBR massively oversubscribed, "the worst I've ever seen" according to the tech from the newsgroups, closely followed by "the upgrade work was not done, cancelled twice, it's not looking good".

That is the sum total of information given by VM. No response to any posts asking why "it's not looking good".

In my experience all emails are simply ignored, I've yet to recieve any response that bears any resemblance to the issues originally highlighted. Phone support is a none starter, they simply refuse to do anything other than put you through to the tech, who then says there's nothing they can do. You just end up going in circles.

Sent a recorded letter of complaint last month (after 3 months of phone and emails), no response as yet (2 days to go), then it's onto the 3rd party complaints proceedure and then Ofcom.

Beyond resorting to the courts there seems little else that the end customer can do.

[Ignitionnet]

The modem levels are high but ok - regardless of Telewest or ntl the modems are now the same, as are the tolerances and while above 12dBmV might not be ideal it's satisfactory so long as the SNR is reasonable.

The issue is oversubscription, diagnosable from these bits:

It's OK in the mornings (before 12pm) but from then on it just goes downhill and stays crap until well past midnight.

2 56 ms 57 ms 57 ms 10.123.192.1

Power levels being marginal will cause slow speeds due to packet loss, and intermittent loss of service rather than a continuous pattern of poor performance during higher loading times tailling off well after peak times.

---------- Post added at 13:26 ---------- Previous post was at 12:49 ----------

Is this your post on the newsgroups OP?

Hi Yan,

I'm sorry to hear you're having problems with your connection speed.

Your downstream power level is very high, however as you are still able to
maintain a 10Mb speed at certain times of the day this would not appear to
be causing you any problems. I have taken a look at your local network and
can see that the load on your UBR is very high at times and have passed this
to our network team to investigate. We're sorry for the inconvenience
caused.

EDIT: Never mind I actually read the post in full - it is you. Glad they had some answers.

[qasdfdsaq]

Yep, indeed it was me. Thanks for all the tips.

I've got a response over the newsgroups, someone's admitted there's a congestion issue and given me a ref. number, though no news on if/when they'll actually fix it.

[General Maximus]

I wouldnt hold your breath, you can pretty much guarantee you'll be waiting a year for them to do anything about it.

[Joxer]

If it has a reference no. there should be an estimated fix time, post the reference and somebody can look it up.

[qasdfdsaq]

They gave me F000883601 but said there's no ETA as it's still being investigated and it requires a capacity upgrade. I'm hoping maybe the 50mbit rollout will introduce some extra capacity, it seems to me that the UBR is overloaded rather than the backhaul, the extra DS2.0/a channels might help...

Anyhow at least now I don't have to worry about getting STM'd, since it doesn't actually make my connection any slower when it kicks in :rolleyes:

[hokkers999]

I'm in the same boat, speed is consistantly below 512Kb every night with massive packet loss, often below 250Kbs. Has been like this for over 4 months. UBR massively oversubscribed, "the worst I've ever seen" according to the tech from the newsgroups, closely followed by "the upgrade work was not done, cancelled twice, it's not looking good".

That is the sum total of information given by VM. No response to any posts asking why "it's not looking good".

In my experience all emails are simply ignored, I've yet to recieve any response that bears any resemblance to the issues originally highlighted. Phone support is a none starter, they simply refuse to do anything other than put you through to the tech, who then says there's nothing they can do. You just end up going in circles.

Sent a recorded letter of complaint last month (after 3 months of phone and emails), no response as yet (2 days to go), then it's onto the 3rd party complaints proceedure and then Ofcom.

Beyond resorting to the courts there seems little else that the end customer can do.

You can hit them in the pocket and do what I did, downgrade to the 2meg service.

[Noggo]

Hope you're speaking to customer services, now they're admitted your problem with download speed is due to lack of capacity. No point paying full price for a taff connection.

[Magilla]

You can hit them in the pocket and do what I did, downgrade to the 2meg service.

I would but it's just letting them off the hook. I decided I'd go through the official complaints proceedure to see if I can get it resolved, or force a statement that they are unable to resolve the problem within a reasonable timescale.

[yorkshireborn]

I would but it's just letting them off the hook. I decided I'd go through the official complaints proceedure to see if I can get it resolved, or force a statement that they are unable to resolve the problem within a reasonable timescale.


as said above downgrade to 2 meg the only other thing is if u need to download then do it in the the early hours of the morning.

[Magilla]

as said above downgrade to 2 meg the only other thing is if u need to download then do it in the the early hours of the morning.

Downgrading to 2Mb will mean that I am not recieving considerably less than the tarrif below mine, and as such I would have no grounds for complaint.

As someone who would like more than the 2M package, how does downgrading help in anyway?

[hokkers999]

Downgrading to 2Mb will mean that I am not recieving considerably less than the tarrif below mine, and as such I would have no grounds for complaint.

As someone who would like more than the 2M package, how does downgrading help in anyway?

It doesn't help you get more than 2 meg, but it does mean that you aren't paying for something you can't get. :)

What it does do is take £19/month out of VM's coffers. If *everyone* cut back to 2 meg they'd sure as hell notice that drop in income, perhaps then they might make the damn network "work"

[Stabhappy]

Or assume that britain doesn't want/need faster internet and offer worse products for more.

[qasdfdsaq]

OK, no idea what happened but as of tonight I'm actually getting broadband again, as opposed to speeds and pings considerably slower than my mobile phone. This is despite my modem power levels going even further out of spec (14.6dB Recieve level)...

Ping statistics for 64.233.183.104:
Packets: Sent = 100, Received = 100, Lost = 0 (0% loss)
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 31ms, Maximum = 67ms, Average = 38ms

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2009/02/35.png

Four weeks since I reported it, but coincidentally also two days after I mentioned moving to a rival ISP on the newsgroups... Didn't expect network engineers to be working Saturdays night but either way, lets hope it sticks...

*Braces self for depressing return to 150kbps tomorrow evening*

[Noggo]

Ping statistics for 64.233.183.104:
Packets: Sent = 100, Received = 100, Lost = 0 (0% loss)
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 31ms, Maximum = 67ms, Average = 38ms

You can tell something isn't still quite right by the above. I use to get erratic results like those when I use having issues with oversubscription and now without any issues:

E:\Documents and Settings\Bob>ping 64.233.183.104 -n 20

Pinging 64.233.183.104 with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 64.233.183.104: bytes=32 time=29ms TTL=242
Reply from 64.233.183.104: bytes=32 time=32ms TTL=242
Reply from 64.233.183.104: bytes=32 time=30ms TTL=242
Reply from 64.233.183.104: bytes=32 time=28ms TTL=242
Reply from 64.233.183.104: bytes=32 time=29ms TTL=242
Reply from 64.233.183.104: bytes=32 time=32ms TTL=242
Reply from 64.233.183.104: bytes=32 time=31ms TTL=242
Reply from 64.233.183.104: bytes=32 time=30ms TTL=242
Reply from 64.233.183.104: bytes=32 time=27ms TTL=242
Reply from 64.233.183.104: bytes=32 time=28ms TTL=242
Reply from 64.233.183.104: bytes=32 time=30ms TTL=242
Reply from 64.233.183.104: bytes=32 time=33ms TTL=242
Reply from 64.233.183.104: bytes=32 time=31ms TTL=242
Reply from 64.233.183.104: bytes=32 time=28ms TTL=242
Reply from 64.233.183.104: bytes=32 time=30ms TTL=242
Reply from 64.233.183.104: bytes=32 time=31ms TTL=242
Reply from 64.233.183.104: bytes=32 time=29ms TTL=242
Reply from 64.233.183.104: bytes=32 time=28ms TTL=242
Reply from 64.233.183.104: bytes=32 time=27ms TTL=242
Reply from 64.233.183.104: bytes=32 time=30ms TTL=242

Ping statistics for 64.233.183.104:
Packets: Sent = 20, Received = 20, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 27ms, Maximum = 33ms, Average = 29ms

Glad to see your speed is max though, fingers crossed for it stoping that way too. Quick you better touch some wood :D.

[Smythcolan]

Don't know if this may help anyone but ive only been with virgin for 2 weeks and on Friday my speed suddenly dropped to around 200 - 500k all day.
Contacted them on Saturday as it was still the same and a very helpfull chap guided me through a few checks.
To cut a long story short he told me to ping the BBC web site through Dos and this came back at 13ms which was good but through IE and Firefox using the speedtest site my Ping was 150-200ms.
It turned out in the end to be Virgins own PC Guard that was causing the problem. After uninstalling this i have not had a problem and speeds are back up to 9 - 10mb and ping is now 55ms.

So if anyone is having problems and has PC Guard installed try uninstalling it.

Hope this may help someone.

[qasdfdsaq]

Ah well, back to the usual crap today:

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2009/02/34.png

Must have been everyone out last night or something.

[graf_von_anonym]

The issue would appear to be oversubscription but all is not lost. As Virgin roll out 50mb services across the network they are increasing (or parallelling) capacity, which should do something to alleviate these sorts of issues. It's allegedly due to finish before the end of 'Summer', but from the depths of winter that may look quite far off.

While the Complaints procedure is probably the right route to go down, they'll probably only be able to offer you credit (continuing or otherwise) on the account. While it's possible that a network upgrade could get bumped up the priority list, the 50mb deployment is so significant that it's unlikely they'll be doing much more than contemplating work not already scheduled while it is ongoing. 50mb should do

Then, of course, they'll activate the Packet/Application/Routing-Analysis Network Operation Inhibiting Apparatus to arbitrarily disconnect you for watching Little Howard's Big Question on iPlayer or downloading a legitimately purchased musical file.

[wolfkaiser]

I can confirm graf_von_anonym's verdict: not all is lost.

I've been on the XL package since October. My bt line didn't support more than 3.5mbits due to distance to exchange that's why I switched to cable.

Initially my speeds were all over the place, often around 12mbits during day but going down in the evenings to between 2 and 7 mbits. Average was 5mbits. After contacting the very responsive newsgroup support team they confirmed that it was due to high load on UBR. Two network engineer dates came and went but at the beginning of December it happened. The improvement was noticeable but not as dramatic as I've hoped for: now I got between 5 and 12 mbits in the evening. To tell you the truth I was actually reasonably happy with that given my previous adsl situation.

Then the 50mbit service was introduced. Initially my area, SE15, didn't offer it but as of around middle of January it does and what do you know? I now get 18-20 mbits during the day and between 13 and 20 (but mostly 17-19) in the evening. I don't know the first thing about cable technology but from what I've read about the 50mbit roll-out I'm assuming that I've been switched onto their new DOCSIS3 network.

One happy customer.

[qasdfdsaq]

Glad to see you got an improvement wolfkaiser, unfortunately I didn't.

10 months on, VM claim to have "fixed" their load problem several times, and sent engineers and replacement modems round, then continue to admit an "intermittent issue" which "will be investigated". My original network fault ticket was closed as resolved (yeah right). The 50mbit rollout has completed but I'm still seeing the same crappy old speeds, no improvement whatsoever.

I've finally bitten the bullet and left VM, this is just unacceptable. I'm now a more than happy O2 ADSL2+ customer.

Ten months ago vs. Now on Virgin Media (10 meg £24/month):
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2009/10/26.pnghttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2009/10/27.png

And on O2 (20 meg, £9.79/month)
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2009/10/28.png

What a difference, eh? Just to express that more visually, with a little download graph:
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2009/10/19.jpg

Just to clarify, same file, same server, same time, same PC, same cable(s). No tricks here.

Moral of the story... If your VM connection is slow cause of network load, they're probably not going to do anything about it. If you have an alternative, grasp it now.

Also for anyone else thinking of switching, BT Wholesale will give you an estimate based on phone number or postcode of what your line is likely to support. This estimate is very conservative, as some sites have mentioned.

I was told I'd get "5.5Mbps or greater ADSL connection via ADSL Max, 6Mbps or greater via ADSL2+", yet I'm happily synching at 16.5Mbps on ADSL2+ right now. If you use the checker(s) on O2 or Be's site(s) they are far closer to the truth (they estimated 14 meg, I got 13.5 on the default profile before tweaking things a bit to get the final 16.5), but require a live phone number to work and won't work on postcode alone.

VM have the technology to do far better than this and easily beat ADSL2+, especially on a noisy 2.5km long line, but for some reason can't find it to pull it out of their lazy oversubscribed and overpriced *bleep* to provide any sane level of service. If ADSL2+ can beat "super fast fibre-optic broadband" by this much without even having to cap people to 1/4 their rated speed, they must be doing something seriously wrong at VM...

Well that concludes this mini rant/story.

[Sephiroth]

They gave me F000883601 but said there's no ETA as it's still being investigated and it requires a capacity upgrade. I'm hoping maybe the 50mbit rollout will introduce some extra capacity, it seems to me that the UBR is overloaded rather than the backhaul, the extra DS2.0/a channels might help......

Capacity upgrade --> Motorway effect <-- Students.

[bomber_g]

Moral of the story... If your VM connection is slow cause of network load, they're probably not going to do anything about it.

This is wrong

the network is constantly being upgraded. Granted you might be in an area that is not due to be done until next week or even next year, but hey that's how these things work.

If you have an alternative, grasp it now.

this is right =D

I would say there are a lot more people on BT that are being affected by long cables / high contention ratio's / old cabling etcetc than their are people being affected by oversubsrciption on NTL - but that's why we have a choice of providers, to keep competition in the market and hopefully force the big companies to keep upgrading their kit and to try and provide a better service than each other.

[qasdfdsaq]

This is wrong

the network is constantly being upgraded. Granted you might be in an area that is not due to be done until next week or even next year, but hey that's how these things work.



This may not be universally true, but it's what I was told by several people at the beginning. People on the newsgroups said I had pretty much no hope of them doing anything about it, after nine months of painful personal experience that has been shown to be true. As I've mentioned, my area has supposedly been upgraded already, more than once since my initial complaint. Whether or not they've really done that, I've experienced no appreciable improvement.

That said, I'm lucky to live in a city like this, where the POTS exchanges are close enough together that you're rarely over 1km from an exchange and will next to never have a line longer than 3km.

As for the motorway effect... I don't buy it. O2/Be are cheaper, and with almost everyone synching at >10 meg around here, they're probably having to provide more bandwidth per person than VM are. Yet they've managed to keep on top of capacity and contention perfectly well since the exchange first went live three or four years ago - and that's without any traffic management or download caps.

[Sephiroth]

.....

As for the motorway effect... I don't buy it. O2/Be are cheaper, and with almost everyone synching at >10 meg around here, they're probably having to provide more bandwidth per person than VM are. Yet they've managed to keep on top of capacity and contention perfectly well since the exchange first went live three or four years ago - and that's without any traffic management or download caps.

It's really simples.

If the students are suffering at, say 1 mbps on their 50 Mbps contracts, as soon as you increase the capacity, they'll use it all the way up to 50. This is a universal rule for anything involving traffic (let alone students).

You mention syncing at > 10 Mbps on O2/Be (through a BT line all the way to the ISP Gateway). Syncing is one thing, download is another. Your 50 Mbps VM circuit will sync at the nominal speed. But downloads are subject to contention at nodes and hubs at least.

[bomber_g]

I'd say if you feel that you get a better connection from an ADSL circuit in your area, than get it.

It's pretty obvious BT are going to have a better network set up, more capacity etc in some areas, and Virgin will provide a better service in others. So far Virgin are doing a pretty good job of delivering what they say they can - even Ofcom agree with this

[qasdfdsaq]

You mention syncing at > 10 Mbps on O2/Be (through a BT line all the way to the ISP Gateway). Syncing is one thing, download is another. Your 50 Mbps VM circuit will sync at the nominal speed. But downloads are subject to contention at nodes and hubs at least.

My point is on O2/Be I (and everyone else I know) sync at 10 megs+ and get 10 megs+ download. As my graph earlier shows, at 16.5 meg sync I'm getting 15 meg actual download. That's about as good as it gets - and thats during the height of the peak period. Most of the dips are actually due to the server, not my ISP. Their contention is low enough that even the fast(er) lines can get full speed, pretty much all the time.

Virgin Media will 'sync' at 2/10/20/50 meg. And you'll get 1.5 meg download speed. On a good day. Not even the slowest lines will get full speed at peak times; sure it's fine at 6am though... But that's not when I need to use it.

O2/Be have kept capacity and contention well under control, without needing any traffic management. Virgin Media have failed miserably - in this area at least.