View Full Version : STM rates VM expect you to keep to
During the period 4PM till 9PM all customers downloads are limited to 3Gig or less, depending on your package.
Below are the rates that VM expect you to stay under, compared to the package speed you bought (or thought you did).
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XL Headline rate: 20Mb/s (20 Meg)
Allowance: 3 Gigabytes over 5 hours.
Actual speed you have to stay under not to trip STM: 1.33Mb/s
(1.3 meg, yes thats less than the lowest M service)
Reduction ratio: allowed to use only 1/15th of what you paid for, or your whole service is restricted, up and down.
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L Service (new)
Headline rate: 10Mb/s (10 Meg)
Allowance: 1.2 Gigabytes over 5 hours.
Actual speed you have to stay under not to trip STM: 0.53Mb/s
(0.5 meg, yes half a meg, the level of service available at launch 8 years ago)
Reduction ratio: allowed to use only 1/19th of what you paid for, or your whole service is restricted, up and down.
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L service (old)
Headline rate: 4Mb/s (4 Meg)
Allowance: 1 Gigabyte over 5 hours.
Actual speed you have to stay under not to trip STM: 0.44Mb/s
(0.4 meg, 20% less than the service available on launch 8 years ago)
Reduction ratio: allowed to use only 1/10th of what you paid for, or your whole service is restricted, up and down.
-----------------------------------------
M Service
Headline rate: 2Mb/s (2 Meg)
Allowance: 500 Megabytes over 5 hours.
Actual speed you have to stay under not to trip STM: 0.22Mb/s
(0.2 meg or 220k, the equivalent of 4x 56k phone modems)
Reduction ratio: allowed to use only 1/9th of what you paid for, or your whole service is restricted, up and down.
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Rates can be monitored using netmeter (free), netlimiter (complicated but free) or dumeter (30 days free only).
I couldnt be bothered to do the uploads in the same style, but for those that want raw data
Service|Allowance|Actual
XL|768k|1.4g|620k
L(n)|512k|700m|300k
M|256k|200m|90k
As we can see, packages above M have quite a high upload ratio compared to the headline rate, however because the download rates are so stringent and harsh, it doesnt matter because the uprate is also slashed when you download over the trigger level.
xspeedyx
18-06-2008, 19:30
didnt you post this on Digitalspy
whydoIneedatech
18-06-2008, 19:39
He did but not everyone looks at different forums they stick to what their used to, so a good post.
zing_deleted
18-06-2008, 19:42
It would be a good post if it wasnt plastered all over the place here
whydoIneedatech
18-06-2008, 19:47
Not great post just a good post agreed
Just spreading the word - have had enough of their hide it and dont tell anyone policy on STM. People should be told exactly what they are buying.
whydoIneedatech
18-06-2008, 19:57
Just spreading the word - have had enough of their hide it and dont tell anyone policy on STM. People should be told exactly what they are buying.
Information is good for people, lets them be aware of whats going on.
AndyIggs83
18-06-2008, 20:09
It's not just between 4-9PM now though, I was STM'd at 2.30 today
stm is here to stay ....the adverts are wrong but the facts are if you dont like it then leave the grass is not always greener
stm is here to stay ....the adverts are wrong but the facts are if you dont like it then leave the grass is not always greener
true take us charge by X gigs used over set limit.
To be honest STM should be two way.
If you dont use the allocated allowance you should be allowed to go over your limit.
That way it would be lot fairer system.
Also pass through data should not be counted its not your traffic. Web browsing is another which should be omitted unless stream sites.
Only streaming , downloading should be counted.
I knew Vm would run into trouble once iplayer, channel4 vod, itv hit the webs. Really its questionable these also should not count.
This is ontop of xbox, ps3 traffic of gigs downloadable content from demos, games movies. Youtube and any other vid sharing. To cap it lot of websites gone java flash based and sites now are much bigger due to the overly use flashy graphics.
All this is grinding broadbands to meltdown. This could easily been predicted and the ISP's been guilty sitting on there backside and just over subscribing networks raking the money. In defence for VM there is also the freeloader issue which needs to be solved of the dodgy modems which must be effecting badly.
But they been quite happy raking there monies in for all us to do simple things like browse the web of non flash based sites. Using a fraction of our bandwidth. But when all of sudden the average user has to umph its usage just to even browse the internet. Then we get the new super nice new things like the online vods the hungry new consoles. They start panicking and STM.
This not a rant againt VM every single ISP provider has ample opportunity to be warned the internet would blossom and the average person would have to use more gigs,
Lets not forget the average patch for pc games has grown over a gig. Its not hard to imagine you could easily hit these meagre limits very easily doing rather very little.
Lets not forget the average patch for pc games has grown over a gig. Its not hard to imagine you could easily hit these meagre limits very easily doing rather very little.
Sure, but how many do you need to do every day during STM periods?
No user is forced to download anything, normal browsing won't get anywhere near the STM limits and the internet isn't close to grinding to a halt as some would exaggerate. STM may be a pain in the backside but the new thresholds aren't so bad that you can't work within them.
All it takes is a little patience and everyone will have a 'decent' connection speed rather than very few getting 'very good' speeds. Is that so bad?
TraxData
18-06-2008, 22:10
Sure, but how many do you need to do every day during STM periods?
No user is forced to download anything, normal browsing won't get anywhere near the STM limits and the internet isn't close to grinding to a halt as some would exaggerate. STM may be a pain in the backside but the new thresholds aren't so bad that you can't work within them.
All it takes is a little patience and everyone will have a 'decent' connection speed rather than very few getting 'very good' speeds. Is that so bad?
Yes its bad, the whole point of a high speed connection is to get things downloaded quicker, not 3 or 4 times longer than it should.
Sure, people can start pcs, xbox360s etc and download overnight, but why should they?
Err, normal browsing in this day and age is youtube, iplayer, itunes etc and those who generally do that are on lower packages and hit STM quite often, if you saw the true % of how many people get stm'd you'd be in total shock, it's quite amusing though because techs are often called out about slow speeds but it's stm that is the problem and as you know VM dont like to inform their customers.
And no, the limits on all tiers are appalling, maybe if this was pre-2000 but come on file sizes are huge these days.
chickendippers
18-06-2008, 22:19
Please do a similar calculation with Sky Broadband:
Base - Headline Speed 2Mb - 2 GB Usage then access suspended
Mid - Headline Speed 8Mb - 40 GB Usage then access suspended
Max Headline Speed 16Mb - Fair Usage Policy
TraxData
18-06-2008, 22:21
Please do a similar calculation with Sky Broadband:
Base - Headline Speed 2Mb - 2 GB Usage then access suspended
Mid - Headline Speed 8Mb - 40 GB Usage then access suspended
Max Headline Speed 16Mb - Fair Usage Policy
The 16mbit has a "soft" cap of 500GB/Month.
And a hard cap of 750GB/Month.
Most people would be alot better off on that...
Also you should note that VM has STM AND! A Fair Usage Policy which they can do whatever the hell they want with.
Berealwith
18-06-2008, 22:38
Lol who gives a flying k anymore............i have found life again its when you press shut down and not restart ...........
Sure, people can start pcs, xbox360s etc and download overnight, but why should they?
As you know full well, because they signed up for a contended connection that isn't 'fat' enough to allow everyone to download at the advertised speeds at the same time.
Yes I know that it shouldn't be that way but the reality of VM's finances mean that is the position.
And no, the limits on all tiers are appalling, maybe if this was pre-2000 but come on file sizes are huge these days.
I usually download between 100-150GB/month and have hit the STM limits twice (once deliberately just to check it was working!) -- it's only appalling if you ignore the thresholds and/or have no patience.
Obviously, ymmv.
whydoIneedatech
18-06-2008, 22:42
Lol who gives a flying k anymore............i have found life again its when you press shut down and not restart ...........
What will you do when your new provider is oversubscribed just like all the others and it implements STM, and this will happen with all UK providers because the money is not their to increase capacity.
TraxData
18-06-2008, 22:46
As you know full well, because they signed up for a contended connection that isn't 'fat' enough to allow everyone to download at the advertised speeds at the same time.
People are not asking to be able to download all the time are they?
They come home from work, they want to play a few demos, listen to a few streams, do the odd update...and for this, they get stm'd and classed as an "abuser" that's beyond unfair, it's downright atrocious.
That's what a normal user does these days, VM know this thus give them pathetic stm limits as a way to "force" them to upgrade to 20mbit which they dont need as they rarely download just like to do normal things, but they have no choice, win win for VM, lose lose for customers.
Especially ones who cannot afford it.
Yes I know that it shouldn't be that way but the reality of VM's finances mean that is the position.
VM's finances are fine, they are currently doing segment splitting on the network ready for docsis3, the matter here is they dont want customers to actually use any bandwith which they are paying for, and you can hardly say VM are in bad financial state when the bosses keep getting an extra 100k bonus every year.
I usually download between 100-150GB/month and have hit the STM limits twice (once deliberately just to check it was working!) -- it's only appalling if you ignore the thresholds and/or have no patience.
Obviously, ymmv.
You still dont get it, do you? people pay for a higher speed connection to get files faster, it's as simple as that, your not gonna pay £37/month to download files slower, patience? you dont need it, you have a high speed connection, you get your file fast, but now you dont, they make the download times nearly 4 x longer than it needs to be, sorry but that IS appalling, of course if you enjoy all day stm each to their own but VM's service is fast becoming pretty much useless, especially in 2 area's where overnight STM in play.
Sure, but how many do you need to do every day during STM periods?
No user is forced to download anything, normal browsing won't get anywhere near the STM limits and the internet isn't close to grinding to a halt as some would exaggerate. STM may be a pain in the backside but the new thresholds aren't so bad that you can't work within them.
All it takes is a little patience and everyone will have a 'decent' connection speed rather than very few getting 'very good' speeds. Is that so bad?
your totally missing the point trzdata sees the issue.
just simple browsing today can hit the low end very easily due to many website overly need to run flash websites. Some have no java flash but these are becoming very rare indead.
With broadband you can also get pop ups with video adverts not just pic based. Although many can be blocked there always 121 media/phorm type companies who make it hard to block.
Like traxdata says theres the common youtube, iplayer type usage which now becoming norm.
Before the ISP relied on % which hardly used there broadband to compensate heavy usage. They cant and should not now rely on this anymore. Each user should be deemed 50-75% usage user.
On timeline in downloads how many would be annoyed by the rule of download over the night for a big patch.
I would think many who go to the shops to buy a game. Come home install it run it get told there is new patch at 1.2gigs.
VM answer to it download it later why should they in most cases some games dont give you the option it just goes ahead with the download if it detects your online its not going to stop say hey your ISP is VM I will do it later outside there STM.
Thats the typical modern day now. People not going to wait play there new game tomorrow so they can download the patch during out of STM hours and why should they.
Get very popular new game such as GTA4 and it really does up the ante with many want patches on the release day or its first patch date.
Equally why should a person who say does just some browsing then once in while needs big file or goes over there allowance get shafted by VM. Who during other times been quite happy to see you pay for your service but mothball it. Like I said if they want to STM then they must give something back in return if you dont use your usage. Maybe upgrade your speed to the next tier for the same price your currently on for a day as reward.
Matter fact why do VM need to hurt its customers over those who cheat thief the bandwidth on dodgy modems.
People are not asking to be able to download all the time are they?
It's not a question of "all the time" but "at the same time" as I wrote.
They come home from work, they want to play a few demos, listen to a few streams, do the odd update...and for this, they get stm'd and classed as an "abuser" that's beyond unfair, it's downright atrocious.
That's what a normal user does these days, VM know this thus give them pathetic stm limits as a way to "force" them to upgrade to 20mbit which they dont need as they rarely download just like to do normal things, but they have no choice, win win for VM, lose lose for customers.
No choice but to upgrade to XL?
How about reducing what they download during the STM hours?
How about putting up with the STM'd speed reduction for a few hours after they've completed their downloads?
Alternatively they could always dump VM and switch to Be/O2 but I'm sure they'll have some form of traffic management before long...
VM's finances are fine, they are currently doing segment splitting on the network ready for docsis3, the matter here is they dont want customers to actually use any bandwith which they are paying for, and you can hardly say VM are in bad financial state when the bosses keep getting an extra 100k bonus every year.
Paying a few over-inflated bonuses to over-important (and in my opinion, completely useless) execs doesn't change the reality of their finances. And they're bloody awful!
You still dont get it, do you? people pay for a higher speed connection to get files faster, it's as simple as that, your not gonna pay £37/month to download files slower, patience? you dont need it, you have a high speed connection, you get your file fast, but now you dont, they make the download times nearly 4 x longer than it needs to be, sorry but that IS appalling, of course if you enjoy all day stm each to their own but VM's service is fast becoming pretty much useless, especially in 2 area's where overnight STM in play.
Your exaggerations are laughable, mate.
In another thread (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34577484-post43.html), I estimated that even allowing for overnight STM, an XL connection would still be able to download 115GB over a 24-hour period at an average rate of 10Mb/s. If that's "pretty much useless" then we'll see huge numbers of customers dump it in next quarters statistics.
Hopefully VM will learn their lesson and cancel the 50Mb/s service too.
TraxData
18-06-2008, 23:16
It's not a question of "all the time" but "at the same time" as I wrote.
-rolls eyes- they dont affect the network enough to cause a problem, when setup properly they can do this and ample bandwith will still be available.
Only reason they cannot is VM have purposely oversubscribed, why should customers be penalised, for that?
No choice but to upgrade to XL?
How about reducing what they download during the STM hours?
How about putting up with the STM'd speed reduction for a few hours after they've completed their downloads?
Alternatively they could always dump VM and switch to Be/O2 but I'm sure they'll have some form of traffic management before long...
Yes no choice, reduce what they download? again why should they? they are paying for a connection to which they want to use, your comment here makes no sense? that goes back to putting xbox360 on overnight just to play a demo the next day, so much for files now! what about if you pay for a movie online? those links only work for 24 hours you know, want them to download that overnight as well? you fail to see that because everyone has shifted to heavy downloaders overnight we are having night STM as well, when should they download? In VM's eyes, never.
Paying a few over-inflated bonuses to over-important (and in my opinion, completely useless) execs doesn't change the reality of their finances. And they're bloody awful!
For a company of their size, their finances are nowhere near as bad as you think.
Your exaggerations are laughable, mate.
In another thread (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34577484-post43.html), I estimated that even allowing for overnight STM, an XL connection would still be able to download 115GB over a 24-hour period at an average rate of 10Mb/s. If that's "pretty much useless" then we'll see huge numbers of customers dump it in next quarters statistics.
Hopefully VM will learn their lesson and cancel the 50Mb/s service too.
Most would think yours are laugable, all because you dont really do anything with your connection doesnt mean others are the same.
Again you just do not get it at all, i hate to cause offense but read this slowly and clearly ceedee, STM does not at current affect downloaders as they just move to overnight downloading.
HOWEVER, normal users want to do the stuff i mentioned, they do not want to download 115GB over a 24 hour period, they want their demo their streams and so fourth, barely hitting 115GB/Month never mind 24 hours and it IS THEM who are being penalised and having half of their connection taken away from them, you sitting here and publishing "115GB/24 Hour Period" means literally nothing to normal web users, they aint heavy downloaders, do you get it, yet?
And yet they still get stm'd and get called "abusers" by VM, it's all a farce to get them to upgrade making them think they need to.
So yes, it is useless for normal users.
VM are not going to learn as their 50mbit has STM also.
I would think many who go to the shops to buy a game. Come home install it run it get told there is new patch at 1.2gigs.
And there's nothing stopping them.
If they're on 10Mb/s then they may not be able to get their headline speed again for a couple of hours but it should still be adequate to browse websites, watch YouTube clips or play their new game online.
VM answer to it download it later why should they in most cases some games dont give you the option it just goes ahead with the download if it detects your online its not going to stop say hey your ISP is VM I will do it later outside there STM.
Once the update has downloaded (in about 10mins on 20Mb/s), an XL user would still have almost 2GB 'allowance' (assuming we're talking the 4-9pm slot) before their speed was restricted.
Thats the typical modern day now. People not going to wait play there new game tomorrow so they can download the patch during out of STM hours and why should they.
So it's okay to stamp their feet like spoilt children because after downloading a huge update during the busiest time of the day, their connection is slowed to what a couple of years ago was considered insanely fast?
Well, that's why I suggested that folk need to learn a little patience... ;)
Equally why should a person who say does just some browsing then once in while needs big file or goes over there allowance get shafted by VM.
Getting their 20Mb/s connection reduced down to 5Mb/s is hardly "shafted" is it?
C'mon, enough of the "sky's falling in" exaggeration?
TraxData
18-06-2008, 23:35
And there's nothing stopping them.
If they're on 10Mb/s then they may not be able to get their headline speed again for a couple of hours but it should still be adequate to browse websites, watch YouTube clips or play their new game online.
Here we go again...5 hours my friend, not a "couple" and again your not understand things here, try multitasking while your stm'd, it's physically impossible and still goes back to the fact it forces the download to take 4x longer than it should do.
What about light users who have kids in the house? more than 1 PC on 5mbit that acts more like a 128K ISDN line, no thanks.
Youtube while your stm'd? that really is a laugh, everyone i know has huge buffering issues with youtube during STM because you go through a different route (go on, check it, look how many extra hops you do)
Once the update has downloaded (in about 10mins on 20Mb/s), an XL user would still have almost 2GB 'allowance' (assuming we're talking the 4-9pm slot) before their speed was restricted.
Normal users are not on XL package, are they?
You can hit STM in 17 minutes so your "2GB" is flawed.
And that 2GB can be hit easy just with a few iplayer shows, itunes, streaming etc, i'm still pretty sure u just dont realise how big files are in this day and age.
So it's okay to stamp their feet like spoilt children because after downloading a huge update during the busiest time of the day, their connection is slowed to what a couple of years ago was considered insanely fast?
Well, that's why I suggested that folk need to learn a little patience... ;)
HUGE update? ok i just lost any respect for you, a 1.5GB is not huge anymore, it was in the 90s, today thats a normal filesize just for a demo, nevermind updates iplayer etc and everything else on time.
10am-3pm is peak hours/busiest time of the day is it? do you work for VM, you sound like their marketing stratergy group manager ;)
Again, your not understand the basic concept that people want to use their connections when they are actually home, from work, to relax and play a demo, download something, whatever they need to do, they are paying to use a broadband service and they get -purposely- (and this is the difference here...) restricted, throttled and called an "abuser" for this, VM sold it as unlimited, you cant complain because customers want to use it as such..AND YET AGAIN i'm having to note to you that those apparent huge files are normal file sizes these days and of course they are going to want to use it during peak hours, there is nothing wrong with that.
Oh get real, again, file sizes have significently (sp) gone up in size over the years so you cannot compare the 2, we are not downloading 20mb files anymore :rolleyes:
Getting their 20Mb/s connection reduced down to 5Mb/s is hardly "shafted" is it?
C'mon, enough of the "sky's falling in" exaggeration?
You think them taking 75% of your connection from you for 5 hours (or more, dependant on the time you hit the STM limits) is not being shafted? VM must love you as a customer, screw you over and you still happily pay :)
And again, for the record, it doesnt level out at 5Mbit and any sort of real web use becomes impossible due to response times/pings and such.
So C'mon enough of the "OMG FILES ARE 5MB! anything else is huge" attitude and come into the 21st century ;)
-rolls eyes- they dont affect the network enough to cause a problem, when setup properly they can do this and ample bandwith will still be available.
A working example of how the network could handle a large number of subscribers using their full bandwidth would be useful.
Yes no choice, reduce what they download? again why should they? they are paying for a connection to which they want to use, your comment here makes no sense? that goes back to putting xbox360 on overnight just to play a demo the next day, so much for files now! what about if you pay for a movie online? those links only work for 24 hours you know, want them to download that overnight as well? you fail to see that because everyone has shifted to heavy downloaders overnight we are having night STM as well, when should they download? In VM's eyes, never.
You've again ignored that they're supplied with a contended connection.
I offered a number of "choices" that you claimed were not available. But of course it's completely impossible to play xbox online while STM'd and utterly unrealistic to watch the movie while STM'd?
Most would think yours are laugable, all because you dont really do anything with your connection doesnt mean others are the same.
Again you just do not get it at all, i hate to cause offense but read this slowly and clearly ceedee, STM does not at current affect downloaders as they just move to overnight downloading.
You think 100-150GB/month isn't using my connection?
The last I heard, the average data usage for a VM customer was 6GB/month.
HOWEVER, normal users want to do the stuff i mentioned, they do not want to download 115GB over a 24 hour period, they want their demo their streams and so fourth, barely hitting 115GB/Month never mind 24 hours and it IS THEM who are being penalised and having half of their connection taken away from them, you sitting here and publishing "115GB/24 Hour Period" means literally nothing to normal web users, they aint heavy downloaders, do you get it, yet?
Show me an XL user who's seriously affected by STM without any avoidable downloads that seriously couldn't be postponed until after 9pm and I'll begin to accept your assertion.
Or an 10Mb/s user who *needs* the full speed to download more than 1.2GB during the peak period?
And yet they still get stm'd and get called "abusers" by VM, it's all a farce to get them to upgrade making them think they need to.
I'm sure they'll be able to sue VM for such terrible emotional damage! :rolleyes:
So yes, it is useless for normal users.
VM are not going to learn as their 50mbit has STM also.
If you seriously think that STM makes VM's services completely useless then I think we'd better agree to disagree, mate.
I'm certainly not happy that VM believe it's necessary and accept that working around the thresholds can be a pain but it's still way better than any other ISP's connection I've had in over 12 years.
---------- Post added at 23:57 ---------- Previous post was at 23:52 ----------
Here we go again...5 hours my friend, not a "couple" and again your not understand things here, try multitasking while your stm'd, it's physically impossible
I really can't be bothered to argue when you make such ridiculous statements. I don't generally disagree with you but your attitude is impossible.
TraxData
19-06-2008, 00:04
A working example of how the network could handle a large number of subscribers using their full bandwidth would be useful.
Google and wikipedia is your friend, i dont like lazy people, i really wonder how european isps go on with things with their ultra fast connections, even their adsl+2 whips the arse out of our apparently fibre optic cable connections.
You've again ignored that they're supplied with a contended connection.
I offered a number of "choices" that you claimed were not available. But of course it's completely impossible to play xbox online while STM'd and utterly unrealistic to watch the movie while STM'd?
And again you've ignored the fact STM cripples the connection especially if you have more than 1 PC in the house, watch the movie while stm'd? but it hasnt finished downloading yet because 50% of the connection just went walkies, so now your stuck with a download sucking all the connection and you cant do anything else for the most part, many people get dropouts on xbox online while being stm'd because pings go up.
So again, your the one not listening ;)
You think 100-150GB/month isn't using my connection?
The last I heard, the average data usage for a VM customer was 6GB/month.
-rolls eyes- where did i say that? infact you just proved my point with your last bit of this message, 150GB/month dont mean anything to those people, they dont download much, they just want their xbox/streaming etc to work to which they have paid for (with network beneficials as a factor, of course), but if they dare do things they want to, VM cut half the connection away from them.
6GB/Month? your the first person i've met who believes VM on that point.
I really wish you had access to just how many people get stm'd, if you work it out over the network its MUCH, MUCH, MUCH higher than 1/3/5% that VM keep claiming, why dont you see this reported then? as said before, VM dont let customers know about things, most people wouldnt go looking on the site when they see "unlimited" everywhere and navigating the VM site is bad anyway.
Show me an XL user who's seriously affected by STM without any avoidable downloads that seriously couldn't be postponed until after 9pm and I'll begin to accept your assertion.
Or an 10Mb/s user who *needs* the full speed to download more than 1.2GB during the peak period?
Funny, we were talking about normal web users, i have said before XL users who download alot just do it overnight, unsure as to why you've changed the subject to this?
But still, goes back to the point of the fact they shouldnt need it, it takes away the point of having a high speed connection when your not allowed to use it.
4-9PM i can somewhat understand for STM, but not the silly limits.
10am-3PM is just plain proof that STM has literally nothing to do with heavy downloaders but just VM making sure no one uses the bandwith.
As per your comment on 10/20mbit user who needs that bandwith during peak, quite alot, why do you think so many people get stm'd? people are at work during the day (and some people night) and only time they get to use their connection is during peak hours, dont start with leaving things on overnight, alot of people shouldnt have to, so what are you saying? because they are only at home during peak hours they should never ever ever ever download at all, naughty naughty people!
I'm sure they'll be able to sue VM for such terrible emotional damage! :rolleyes:
Un needed? nice high maturity level here and has no revelence to the conversation.
If you seriously think that STM makes VM's services completely useless then I think we'd better agree to disagree, mate.
I'm certainly not happy that VM believe it's necessary and accept that working around the thresholds can be a pain but it's still way better than any other ISP's connection I've had in over 12 years.
Each persons needs are different, STM does cripple the connection to a worthless connection, googling up, reading other forums, the newsgroups and certain sites proves that.
If you look on VM's newsgroups, you get quite alot of people who find they go there and have no idea what STM is and cannot understand why their connections are so slow which in turn they complain and a tech gets sent out, only to find nothing wrong, why is this? because VM refuse to tell customers they even use STM, you dont see it on their adverts do you? remember VM have STM and a FUP on top (which is being put into play soon)
I wonder if you'll change your tune when you have all night STM as well (5mbit 24/7 for heavy downloaders i guess)
And the application throttling that will be turned on even out of STM hours.
Fun times ahead my friend.
Yes we better agree to disagree, i feel that your stuck in the 90s, but that's just my personal opinion to which we are as humans all entitled to.
That's the thing, you may think so, but there is a hell of alot of people who have ADSL+2 and are alot better off, with no stm, no application throttling etc, i know i was..and i'm certainly not close to my exchange.
So there you have it, at 150GB/month you'd class yourself as a "medium to heavy user" as you think most only do 6GB/Month...therefore VM suits you as per my whole point through this process is it doesnt affect people like you, its normal people who are at work all day and just want to use the net for a few hours at night who get shafted.
Here we go again...5 hours my friend, not a "couple" and again your not understand things here, try multitasking while your stm'd, it's physically impossible and still goes back to the fact it forces the download to take 4x longer than it should do.;)
Oddly enough for the first time in my memory we got STM'd the other day - younger brother downloaded TF2 (1.8GB) whilst getting something else.
Even with the STM it was possible for 2 people to play TF2 online, one UO, and all to use various voice comms, the only problem was he had to shut down his background (slowish) uploads...
Even when STM'd there is enough bandwidth for "multitasking", just not downloading at high speeds and time critical things (gaming/voip)).
TraxData
19-06-2008, 00:13
Oddly enough for the first time in my memory we got STM'd the other day - younger brother downloaded TF2 (1.8GB) whilst getting something else.
Even with the STM it was possible for 2 people to play TF2 online, one UO, and all to use various voice comms, the only problem was he had to shut down his background (slowish) uploads...
Even when STM'd there is enough bandwidth for "multitasking", just not downloading at high speeds and time critical things (gaming/voip)).
And there is my point, i said multitasking, that is uploading as well ;)
Your lucky to be in an area where STM works properly though.
Get stm'd here and as soon as you start a download/upload/do any sort of game online and it goes to dial up speeds!
Like this for alot of people :(
Its a good bit of working out, and worrying at the same time. :(
broadbandbug
19-06-2008, 10:13
And there is my point, i said multitasking, that is uploading as well ;)
Your lucky to be in an area where STM works properly though.
Get stm'd here and as soon as you start a download/upload/do any sort of game online and it goes to dial up speeds!
Like this for alot of people :(
Trax, you keep saying that people would lol if they saw what % are actually impacted by STM.
Are you talking about per day, week, month what?
What % do you think are impacted and what are you using to provide that data?
TraxData
19-06-2008, 14:07
Trax, you keep saying that people would lol if they saw what % are actually impacted by STM.
Are you talking about per day, week, month what?
What % do you think are impacted and what are you using to provide that data?
% per day, VM quote over the network the average is %1 per 10am-3pm (this is actually roughly true, most people aint at home then, except for hols)
AND 3-5% over the full network during 4pm-9pm.
I darent even try to work out what it would be per month/year.
I've been using multiple UBR stats to work out the %
Per day here for example 87% of people get stm'd, everyday and only 5% of them are 20mbit/XL users.
Sheffield was the worst with 96% getting stm'd daily.
From what i know most UBR's hang around the 50-70% of people getting stm'd everyday, this is mainly because of the pathetic limits they have on both of the lower tiers, so it really depends what stats they are going by (aka if they are just counting the XL customers) and so fourth.
But either way, their stats are wrong.
You also need to count in the fact Cisco's code just doesnt work properly at all and stm's people for no reason, then you have to count out the cloners, i know how VM came up with 3/5% and it's not exactly a representive view of customers as a whole.
broadbandbug
19-06-2008, 15:33
% per day, VM quote over the network the average is %1 per 10am-3pm (this is actually roughly true, most people aint at home then, except for hols)
AND 3-5% over the full network during 4pm-9pm.
I darent even try to work out what it would be per month/year.
I've been using multiple UBR stats to work out the %
Per day here for example 87% of people get stm'd, everyday and only 5% of them are 20mbit/XL users.
Sheffield was the worst with 96% getting stm'd daily.
From what i know most UBR's hang around the 50-70% of people getting stm'd everyday, this is mainly because of the pathetic limits they have on both of the lower tiers, so it really depends what stats they are going by (aka if they are just counting the XL customers) and so fourth.
But either way, their stats are wrong.
You also need to count in the fact Cisco's code just doesnt work properly at all and stm's people for no reason, then you have to count out the cloners, i know how VM came up with 3/5% and it's not exactly a representive view of customers as a whole.
If the % per day were that high they would have been hammered by Ofcom/ASA etc by now. I know that they have already been challenged on those %'s and were able to provide the data to back them up.
TraxData
19-06-2008, 15:34
If the % per day were that high they would have been hammered by Ofcom/ASA etc by now. I know that they have already been challenged on those %'s and were able to provide the data to back them up.
The data they used to back it up was kind of abit "iffy" to say the least.
As i said, how they use the % is interesting and not representive of customers at all.
And no, they wouldnt, offcom/ASA doesnt give a crap about what ISP's do.
Im with you on This TRAXDATA
The way VM are treating their customers is appauling.
Im on the ( so called 20mb Service ) Last Night i started my download at 1.15am.........my speed was good for 20 minutes, and then dropped to 500kb.
Safe to say i was bloody fuming.........
My UBR is oversubscribed, so i try to stay off the web during the day,and in the evening ( but i shouldnt have to ) Weekends and Bank Holidays are a complete joke, i dont have to download anything and i still get throttled,
Ive said for months now that VM are throttling whenever and whoever they like , As i live over 2km away from my exchange im afraid adsl isnt an alternative, But to be honest , im getting tired of being SHAFTED by this crooked company......
As ive said before on other forums , FOR THOSE THAT DEFEND VM ,JUST WAIT TILL YOUR UBR IS OVERSUBSCRIBED, and then try to defend the tactics.
Rant Over....
Keep up the good work Traxdata
Cheers
Brian
ps....I dont have a faulty Modem - I do have a tip top PC - There is nothing wrong with my Line -
burningfeetman
09-07-2008, 13:08
Out of interest, those of you that think its ok to throttle the connection, how would you feel if you bought a new car but were told that during the day you could only do so many miles at 70MPH before your car would slow down to 20MPH making it unusable on the motorways? BUT if you want to you can drive all night at 70MPH....wouldnt that be great?? Its a similar thing when it comes to VM broadband. I have paid for a subscription to a service, i expect to be able to use that service in the way in which i signed up for it.
At VM's Will THEY increased my broadband speed, i did not ask for it. And now because they have increased everyones speed too much they are limiting what I can download? I did not ask for that either. I say put me back onto my old old 10MB connection and let me browse as i wish.
Out of interest, those of you that think its ok to throttle the connection, how would you feel if you bought a new car but were told that during the day you could only do so many miles at 70MPH before your car would slow down to 20MPH making it unusable on the motorways? BUT if you want to you can drive all night at 70MPH....wouldnt that be great?? Its a similar thing when it comes to VM broadband. I have paid for a subscription to a service, i expect to be able to use that service in the way in which i signed up for it.
At VM will they increased my broadband speed, i did not ask for it. And now because they have increased everyones speed too much they are limiting what I can download? I did not ask for that either. I say put me back onto my old old 10MB connection and let me browse as i wish.
i totally agree with you mate, i mean every isp has some sort of throttling in place and i didnt mind the evening stm policy 4-9pm which is peak times you know, everyone returning home and using the internet so its all goood. but the daytime stm policy is really doing my head in now, im really hacked off.
Im from the south east basildon area, is this daytime policy nationwide now because before it was only a few places and does this mean a "significant" change to the terms and conditions?
pip08456
09-07-2008, 18:29
i totally agree with you mate, i mean every isp has some sort of throttling in place and i didnt mind the evening stm policy 4-9pm which is peak times you know, everyone returning home and using the internet so its all goood. but the daytime stm policy is really doing my head in now, im really hacked off.
Im from the south east basildon area, is this daytime policy nationwide now because before it was only a few places and does this mean a "significant" change to the terms and conditions?
Get your facts right before you make such a sweeping statement.
NOT all ISP'S have some sort of throttling in place. Mine doesn't!
burningfeetman
09-07-2008, 18:48
I think by 'some sort of throttling', i-Set was referring to things like acceptable use policies also not necessarily just STM which i believe all ISP's have to one extent or another.
BFM
pip08456
09-07-2008, 18:57
I think by 'some sort of throttling', i-Set was referring to things like acceptable use policies also not necessarily just STM which i believe all ISP's have to one extent or another.
BFM
I didn't mention STM. All ISP's have AUP, mine would only take action if I was using my connection for illegal purposes, otherwise I have it in writing from them that there is "no form of STM or throttling of any kind". I can download what I want, when I want,as much as I want (does this ring bells?) without my connection or speed being affected.
My speed is a pretty stable 16Mbps (Minimum) which is far better than VM could ever supply me with!
This might be a dumb question, but why would anyone throttle their downloads to a speed which is less than the speed under STM, to avoid STM?
... if you see what I mean!
pip08456
09-07-2008, 19:04
This might be a dumb question, but why would anyone throttle their downloads to a speed which is less than the speed under STM, to avoid STM?
... if you see what I mean!
Not a dumb question at all
Why should anyone paying for a service have to limit the usage that they are paying for to avoid being penalised for what they are buying? If you see what I mean.
That is the dumb question!
Not a dumb question at all
Why should anyone paying for a service have to limit the usage that they are paying for to avoid being penalised for what they are buying? If you see what I mean.
That is the dumb question!
That's actually the same question I asked! The answer is to not limit usage, just download as fast as you can. That way, your speed will always be higher than if you'd kept to a self-imposed speed limit.
As someone who has only fallen foul of STM once or twice, I'm probably not the most qualified to comment on this, but what is the point of the thread; to shame VM into removing STM?
pip08456
09-07-2008, 19:34
That's actually the same question I asked! The answer is to not limit usage, just download as fast as you can. That way, your speed will always be higher than if you'd kept to a self-imposed speed limit.
As someone who has only fallen foul of STM once or twice, I'm probably not the most qualified to comment on this, but what is the point of the thread; to shame VM into removing STM?
I don't think VM can be shamed into doing anything. I suppose this thread is for people who are still paying for a service they don't get and want to have a winge as they can't get any sense from customer services. But I could be wrong, as a customer of Bolton Cable originally VM STINK!!! (couldn't be more explicit on a public site!)
Get your facts right before you make such a sweeping statement.
NOT all ISP'S have some sort of throttling in place. Mine doesn't!
pippincp whos your isp?
This might be a dumb question, but why would anyone throttle their downloads to a speed which is less than the speed under STM, to avoid STM?
... if you see what I mean!
Many reasons.
Some people dont like being branded a "heavy user" or "using more than their fair share", or being told they are "downloading and/or uploading an unusually large amount" on a line they pay good money for to have way more capacity than 1.33 meg over 5 hours.
Perhaps they dont want to feel that their "usage of the service would affect other users if they weren’t managed" or be in "the top 5% of users on a daily basis".
Also, if you are STMed in the afternoon, you are labeled an "extreme case"
(Quotes from http://www.virginmedia.com/help/traffic-management.php)
So, to avoid being any or all of these 'nasty' types of user, you must stay under that crawling along figure of 1.33 meg over 5 hours (XL user, top tier package).
Others may wish to schedule downloads after 9pm, perhaps to watch something late in the evening before they sleep.
Alternatively there is the nasty side effect throttling has on uprates, they may be gaming or using other time sensitive applications and need all their uprate for the duration, or after.
I sense retentions is going to be very busy! ...
chickendippers
09-07-2008, 21:54
Out of interest, those of you that think its ok to throttle the connection, how would you feel if you bought a new car but were told that during the day you could only do so many miles at 70MPH before your car would slow down to 20MPH making it unusable on the motorways? BUT if you want to you can drive all night at 70MPH....wouldnt that be great??
It's called rush hour ;)
burningfeetman
09-07-2008, 22:37
It's called rush hour ;)
I so knew that was coming from someone lol. cheeky :monkey:
Still, if rush hour was all day we might find a different road to go down huh, one that wasn't quite so busy ;)
Still makes me wonder how people can equate a service to a product...(BB connection to a car???)
Also with regards to STM, I know that I'd rather have STM in it's current format than a hidden FUP. I've fallen foul of the FUP's with Demon and Orange (both I now know set at 40GB a month) if you go over that for a couple of months then you get throttled during the day for the following months until your total throughput (up and down) is below that figure (down to 512Kb with orange and 128Kb with demon)
Even the new ADSL2+ ISP's have FUP's, just that some of them currently haven't decided yet to enforce them...
Kymmy
burningfeetman
10-07-2008, 10:54
Still makes me wonder how people can equate a service to a product...(BB connection to a car???)
Also with regards to STM, I know that I'd rather have STM in it's current format than a hidden FUP. I've fallen foul of the FUP's with Demon and Orange (both I now know set at 40GB a month) if you go over that for a couple of months then you get throttled during the day for the following months until your total throughput (up and down) is below that figure (down to 512Kb with orange and 128Kb with demon)
Even the new ADSL2+ ISP's have FUP's, just that some of them currently haven't decided yet to enforce them...
Kymmy
A Haircut then........you wouldnt like to get half way through a haircut and the hairdresser turn round and say you have used your fair share of electricity, no more clippers...instead we're going to use tweezers...you get the same end result, its just so much slower and painful to get there.
It's these people who keep justifying the STM etc that will allow VM to keep these measures in place, they will just keep pushing to see how far we will all go. Why justify it, why do you ALLOW yourself to be pushed around by the company you pay to do so? There is no need for STM or the like if the company spent some of its mass profits in upgrading the network where needed, not introducing 50MB with pathetic limits, just bring it down to 10MB and remove the limit. We dont need faster broadband, its fast enough because we're throttled most of the time there is no point. VM should realise that (in my oppinion!!!! ) the majority of XL customers want to download and watch VOD etc, we're not able to do so to the best of our ability unless we stay up till gone midnight.
Those of you that think that your not downloading during the day is somehow making someone else's broadband experience better are sadly mistaken. They wont notice the few k/sec difference and even better, you encourage VM to sign up more people in that area without upgrading....thanks.
/rant
anyway, weathers crap! :p:
BFM
When the STM was just in the evening, I didnt have a problem with it, its my day off today, ive got a nice new 1TB HD, queued up a "few" HD files ;)
And now the lovely day time STM has kicked in, so five hrs of 5MB and then no doubt again in the evening, this really is making me consider other ISPs after being with Virgin/NTL for about 6yrs.
So for most of today I will be paying for 20MB and receiving it for about ONE HOUR!!
If late evening and early hrs STM is implemented then that will be the final nail in the coffin
I pay £38 for a supposed "20MB" line, and have paid full price always, but I really feel LET DOWN now Mr Branson.
I also pay full price for my XL TV Package, so in all VM are gonna lose what was a PERFECTLY happy customer of 6yrs that paid full price for all services, over this STM Madness.
I used to be a avid fan of VM, but im afraid not now, not with the STM stupidity, evening yes, all day NO.
:(
I used to be a avid fan of VM, but im afraid not now, not with the STM stupidity, evening yes, all day NO.
:(
I too cannot understand why there is a daytime limit. Is the system being 'abused' during the day by the unemployed/students/homeworkers? If it is, then surely it won't be long before we have a night time limit also? VM still have around 2 hours to play with before 20Mb speed cannot be achieved for the majority of the day (and that very strange gap between 3 and 4pm).
i think we should all sign a petition or something to take action against daytime stm because at the end of the day, if customers like us keep quiet and do nothing about it, then soon or later...mark my words there will be stm throughout the entire day...watch :(
instead of rolling out 50mb, update 20mb to 30mb with a 2.5mb upload. and for the lower packages just have 5mb and 10mb...its really simple....isnt it?
broadbandbug
10-07-2008, 16:30
A Haircut then........you wouldnt like to get half way through a haircut and the hairdresser turn round and say you have used your fair share of electricity, no more clippers...instead we're going to use tweezers...you get the same end result, its just so much slower and painful to get there.
It's these people who keep justifying the STM etc that will allow VM to keep these measures in place, they will just keep pushing to see how far we will all go. Why justify it, why do you ALLOW yourself to be pushed around by the company you pay to do so? There is no need for STM or the like if the company spent some of its mass profits in upgrading the network where needed, not introducing 50MB with pathetic limits, just bring it down to 10MB and remove the limit. We dont need faster broadband, its fast enough because we're throttled most of the time there is no point. VM should realise that (in my oppinion!!!! ) the majority of XL customers want to download and watch VOD etc, we're not able to do so to the best of our ability unless we stay up till gone midnight.
Those of you that think that your not downloading during the day is somehow making someone else's broadband experience better are sadly mistaken. They wont notice the few k/sec difference and even better, you encourage VM to sign up more people in that area without upgrading....thanks.
/rant
anyway, weathers crap! :p:
BFM
There are no massive profits... Where do people get this idea from:shocked:
---------- Post added at 16:30 ---------- Previous post was at 16:24 ----------
i think we should all sign a petition or something to take action against daytime stm because at the end of the day, if customers like us keep quiet and do nothing about it, then soon or later...mark my words there will be stm throughout the entire day...watch :(
instead of rolling out 50mb, update 20mb to 30mb with a 2.5mb upload. and for the lower packages just have 5mb and 10mb...its really simple....isnt it?
If large numbers of people (enough to make a petition worth while) were getting STM'd every day. Then VM would be hitting more than 5% of users per day and therefore would have to increase the volume limits.
If everyone just used the internet as they wish getting STMd when they go over the limits then the % caught will rise.. If people change their behaviour to download outside the STM hours then it keeps the capture rate down and therefore enables VM to leave the limits alone.. If the % captured goes up the volume limits have to go up also!;)
Greasemark
10-07-2008, 16:49
If all this STM'ing is supposed to be so shiny and do the biz, how come my 20mb line very rarely gets above 12mb dl and 350kb ul. The addage oversubscribed in an area may be the reason, but hey, thats not my problem. In this day and age of superhighway connections, its pathetic to see the limits imposed. My mrs sits at home due to disability watching tv all day, you imagine how she would feel to be told, youve used your signal bandwidth this week, no signal for you for 4 hours.
The reason most of us are on cable on 20 mb is because there is no better option, telling people to switch if they dont like it is ridiculous,
If all this STM'ing is supposed to be so shiny and do the biz, how come my 20mb line very rarely gets above 12mb dl and 350kb ul. The addage oversubscribed in an area may be the reason, but hey, thats not my problem. In this day and age of superhighway connections, its pathetic to see the limits imposed. My mrs sits at home due to disability watching tv all day, you imagine how she would feel to be told, youve used your signal bandwidth this week, no signal for you for 4 hours.
The reason most of us are on cable on 20 mb is because there is no better option, telling people to switch if they dont like it is ridiculous,
^^^ i agree...this is bull**** :angel: back in the telewest days we didnt have stm did we? sorry im only 18, before my dad used telewest but he doesnt know diddly squat lol
If all this STM'ing is supposed to be so shiny and do the biz, how come my 20mb line very rarely gets above 12mb dl and 350kb ul. The addage oversubscribed in an area may be the reason, but hey, thats not my problem. In this day and age of superhighway connections, its pathetic to see the limits imposed. My mrs sits at home due to disability watching tv all day, you imagine how she would feel to be told, youve used your signal bandwidth this week, no signal for you for 4 hours.
The reason most of us are on cable on 20 mb is because there is no better option, telling people to switch if they dont like it is ridiculous,
stm is here to stay, you say there is no better option so get on with it and stop moaning, why is telling someone to switch ridiculous??
I seemed to avoid the STM last night.
I normally just browse and check email but last night I thought I'd d/load a couple of linux distros.
1 was 700mb and 1 was 500mb and after the first 1 I was expecting to be running 1M but continued running at 2M all through the 2nd d/load and for the rest of the evening.
Lucky I guess.
pip08456
11-07-2008, 02:33
I'm sorry but I must be a bit thick. I always thought that if I paid for a service or a product then I should get what I pay for.
I know I'm no longer with VM but the ISP I now have provides the service I pay for. VM didn't and that's why I left them.
I cannot see how any company nor any customer being able to justify STM. If the network can't take the load then it is a problem with the network. A lack of investment in the infrastructure by the company should not be excused nor should customers be penalised for it.
It is about time VM woke up and entered the real world and realise that they WILL have high end users who expect the speeds advertised and pay for the higher end package otherwise it is just a rip off.
In all the time I was with VM (I can go back to Bolton Cable!) I managed to hit 15Mbps ONCE! The rest of the time it was under 10Mbps, a fortune on calls to India, 2 engineer visits, new moden etc, etc.
On cancelling my service with 30 days notice my phone line was cut off the next day! Now I enjoy a stable MINIMUM of 16Mbps 24/7 which I am more than happy with as it's double what I as getting from VM. Not only that but I was told by the VM rep that the maximum I would get via BT in my area was 2Mbps-wrong!
These problems only appeared when the rebranding to VM took place before that everything was acceptable.
It is about time that ALL ISP'S stopped advertising an "up to" amount and sold their products with a "minimum amount" this would be far better from a consumer point of view.
My current ISP was very clear to me in that I could expect ONLY 16Mbps but it has never been less than that and 9 times out of 10 it's more.
BTW VM advertise as being the fastest BB available-there not! They only advertise "up to" 20 Mbps there is a company who can supply "up to" 24Mbps through LLU and that doesn't take into consideration suppliers like Bulldog although they are in limited areas at the moment.
Greasemark
11-07-2008, 11:38
stm is here to stay, you say there is no better option so get on with it and stop moaning, why is telling someone to switch ridiculous??
No, you miss my point, my service is 99% never at the advertised rates, because of oversubscription, i "never" receive the quality of service I think im entitled to and I have to say, its all since good old STM. I am a loyal Cable customer, have been for at least 7 years, STM is an additional insult should i ever decide to download 20 albums off my itunes. Why dont you stop trawling the forums and picking on those that are saddened or disgruntled by the service they receive. You dont like these threads, dont read em.
And dont be so critical of others, especially as you seem to be in the minority in this thread. STM is here to stay eh? so is pollution, world hunger, war, alcoholic kids, it doesn't stop people moaning about it. And to touch on the Go elsewhere arguement, as I said, virgin cable is my only cable option, you remember when BT had the telephone franchise, how we moaned (or maybe your not old enough) telling me to switch to a couple of tin cans with string is just silly, you get my point? Thankee Sai, and may your days be long and your nights short.
pip08456
11-07-2008, 12:38
No, you miss my point, my service is 99% never at the advertised rates, because of oversubscription, i "never" receive the quality of service I think im entitled to and I have to say, its all since good old STM. I am a loyal Cable customer, have been for at least 7 years, STM is an additional insult should i ever decide to download 20 albums off my itunes. Why dont you stop trawling the forums and picking on those that are saddened or disgruntled by the service they receive. You dont like these threads, dont read em.
And dont be so critical of others, especially as you seem to be in the minority in this thread. STM is here to stay eh? so is pollution, world hunger, war, alcoholic kids, it doesn't stop people moaning about it. And to touch on the Go elsewhere arguement, as I said, virgin cable is my only cable option, you remember when BT had the telephone franchise, how we moaned (or maybe your not old enough) telling me to switch to a couple of tin cans with string is just silly, you get my point? Thankee Sai, and may your days be long and your nights short.
I'm sorry but I have to agree that if you don't like it LEAVE!
The more people that do leave will telll VM that their product is not good enough!
My post above explains why I left so stop winging and either go or put up with it! It's your money they are taking if you are not happy with the service you receive then do as I did - Find someone better!
Greasemark
11-07-2008, 13:05
yes but leave to where, I notice a lot of users have the option of alternate providers, my alternative is adsl at less than 512 due to distance from exchange?
How lucky for you with bolton cable, would you go to adsl with bottom end speeds?
TraxData
11-07-2008, 13:11
yes but leave to where, I notice a lot of users have the option of alternate providers, my alternative is adsl at less than 512 due to distance from exchange?
How lucky for you with bolton cable, would you go to adsl with bottom end speeds?
You'd have to be very far from the exchange to see those speeds.
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/07/89.jpg
Greasemark
11-07-2008, 13:54
interesting, considering what BT have provided for mrs greasemark. hmmmmm
xspeedyx
11-07-2008, 14:01
I can only get 3Mb max on adsl, adsl MAX, ADSL+2 so vm are the only option for me
pip08456
11-07-2008, 14:22
yes but leave to where, I notice a lot of users have the option of alternate providers, my alternative is adsl at less than 512 due to distance from exchange?
How lucky for you with bolton cable, would you go to adsl with bottom end speeds?
So I take it you have asked your altrnative ISP what they can supply to you or do you just believe what VM say to you when you tell them you're goig off elsewhere?
As I said in a previous post VM told me I would only get 2Mbps via a BT line, that was totally wrong and (I presume) just to get me to stay with them.
The bottom line is that VM should come clean and tell their customers EXACTLY what they can expect from them.
I've already said this about ALL ISP'S so I am not getting just at VM, but their advertising is the worst for being misleading.
BTW I am on ADSL now and enjoying better speeds than VM could suppLY!
TraxData
11-07-2008, 14:49
interesting, considering what BT have provided for mrs greasemark. hmmmmm
I'd go to http://www.samknows.com click availability checker and see how far you are from the exchange.
Greasemark
11-07-2008, 14:53
sorry didnt mean to hijack this thread
I know, its just infuriating that in this wonderful broadband revolution, everyone is potentially limited, same old story, the dodgy few get away with unlimited access, the legit users get penalised (kinda software protection issue again). Anyroad, My wife has her own connection (due to a bad experience with wireless) using BT, we are probably only 2 miles from exchange, however the max we can get on her connection is that old 512. Sky have offered 2, but with the bad press i have seen on their connection, I decided to stick with Virgin. Virgin offers the best all round speeds but its such a shame that we cant utilise the tech to its max. Whats the point of fuel injection if its governed.
---------- Post added at 14:53 ---------- Previous post was at 14:52 ----------
Summary of results for xxxxxxxxx / ME8xxx at 14:53 11/07/2008
Congratulations, you are in a broadband enabled area.
However, there is another service on your phone line (e.g. ADSL, LLU, DACS, etc) that would prevent you from ordering a new ADSL connection.
The following services are available in your location:
BT Wholesale ADSL
BT Wholesale ADSL Max
BT Wholesale SDSL
AOL LLU
Bulldog LLU
TalkTalk (CPW) LLU
Sky Broadband / Easynet LLU
Tiscali LLU
Orange LLU (Formerly Wanadoo)
Virgin Media (Cable)
Standard ADSL RAG results
You cannot receive 2Mbps ADSL
You cannot receive 1Mbps ADSL
You can receive 512kbps ADSL
You can receive 256kbps ADSL
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Youd think given distance and all, we could get a fairly good adsl service, but apparently not
No, you miss my point, my service is 99% never at the advertised rates, because of oversubscription, i "never" receive the quality of service I think im entitled to and I have to say, its all since good old STM. I am a loyal Cable customer, have been for at least 7 years, STM is an additional insult should i ever decide to download 20 albums off my itunes. Why dont you stop trawling the forums and picking on those that are saddened or disgruntled by the service they receive. You dont like these threads, dont read em.
And dont be so critical of others, especially as you seem to be in the minority in this thread. STM is here to stay eh? so is pollution, world hunger, war, alcoholic kids, it doesn't stop people moaning about it. And to touch on the Go elsewhere arguement, as I said, virgin cable is my only cable option, you remember when BT had the telephone franchise, how we moaned (or maybe your not old enough) telling me to switch to a couple of tin cans with string is just silly, you get my point? Thankee Sai, and may your days be long and your nights short.
i am old enough (unfortunately) but as i work for virgin i just follow there culture/values "IF YOU DONT LIKE IT GET OUT" and thats just for the staff.
broadbandbug
11-07-2008, 15:31
512Kb/s was the old limit for anyone that was more than about 4KM from the Exchange.
With RADSL (The new noise limits BT adhere to) that would likely go up to around 1.5 - 2Mb/s..
I get 1.5Mb/s where as previously I could only get 512Kb/s and before that I was classed as a failed install as SNR was too high :mad:
dj rob st
11-07-2008, 15:35
id rather get stm, or alter my constant downloads behavior to different times than be on another isp and always think theys a risk they just cut me off for taking the **** with 24/7 torrents , i only download after 12-10am and when i play my games it always works alright, me pc being on then dont bother me and everything comes down fast enough. i was 4mb and they put me on 10mb for no extra and even though i cut down my hours by more than half i still get as much downloaded and uploaded now with the speed upgrade
pip08456
11-07-2008, 15:49
sorry didnt mean to hijack this thread
I know, its just infuriating that in this wonderful broadband revolution, everyone is potentially limited, same old story, the dodgy few get away with unlimited access, the legit users get penalised (kinda software protection issue again). Anyroad,
Now just hang on there. Are you saying I'm one of the "DODGY FEW" because I would take that as a personal attack.
What I am is a person who expects to receive a service that I pay for! VM could not do that so I have gone to a provider that can and that provider has been clear and transparent on what they can provide.
I don't winge about VM any more as I have changed. VM would appear to me the worst ISP in the UK. Their recent ads on TV pour scourn on ADSL but they cannot seem to provide the service they offer mainly due to oversubscription.
Greasemark
11-07-2008, 15:59
no pippin i dont expect you have one of dem cloned modems. keywords - unlimited access
pip08456
11-07-2008, 16:18
no pippin i dont expect you have one of dem cloned modems. keywords - unlimited access
No I don't have a cloned modem. I pay for what I get and as such I expect to get what I pay for! Hence I have gone from VM to another ISP -Simple!
Have you checked with other ISP'S to see what you can expect via ADSL. I think not as a quote of 512Mbps seems rather small in this day and age.
Virgin are pretty smug because they know they have the cable monopoly, ADSL is still pretty second rate speedwise for a lot of people. :(
Never mind any download limitations.
Greasemark
11-07-2008, 16:33
No I don't have a cloned modem. I pay for what I get and as such I expect to get what I pay for! Hence I have gone from VM to another ISP -Simple!
Have you checked with other ISP'S to see what you can expect via ADSL. I think not as a quote of 512Mbps seems rather small in this day and age.
see above, i already have a bt service too. Im not sure where you get that im personally attacking you, speedreader maybe? Im not attacking anyone, im too long in the tooth to do that. Anyhoo, ive about reached the end of my justification container, i didnt think voiceing an opinion (original post) could create so much anger and lecturing, so ill just retire to oblivion again, go to work tonite and send out emergency vehicles to the ungrateful.
Peace out
:confused::p::D
pip08456
11-07-2008, 16:53
see above, i already have a bt service too. Im not sure where you get that im personally attacking you, speedreader maybe? Im not attacking anyone, im too long in the tooth to do that. Anyhoo, ive about reached the end of my justification container, i didnt think voiceing an opinion (original post) could create so much anger and lecturing, so ill just retire to oblivion again, go to work tonite and send out emergency vehicles to the ungrateful.
Peace out
:confused::p::D
Sod the ungrateful send the vehicles to the grateful!
Have you checked with other ISP's as to the speed you can expect? I think not.There is more than BT out there although you would need a BT line.
Check out your options - you could be surprised. There's more out there than VM
@Rone
ADSL can return speeds of "up to" 24 Mbps, better than cable so don't knock it till you've tried it!
I have tried ADSL ,BT, Nildram, Bulldog, Tiscali, all been poo i'm afraid, in the case of Bulldog, lets just say the worst company ever for anything, in total i've done over 7 years hard labour with NTL on and off.
If i could get near 24 meg [20 would do] without any stupid STM limits, please suggest one for around £40?
I'm thinking you might say BE?
@Rone
"ADSL can return speeds of "up to" 24 Mbps, better than cable so don't knock it till you've tried it."
ADSL can return speeds of "up to" 24 Mbps, better than cable so don't knock it till you've tried it!
No, cable has a much higher possible speed than that, but it's not available yet.
burningfeetman
12-07-2008, 11:23
What is the point in a much higher speed when the thing gets STM'd every time u use it to its potential, who REALLY needs faster speeds. I think we would all agree its about time they sorted out the pathetic upload speedand canned this STM nonsense. I say, stop trying to be the fastest, just be the BEST.
What is the point in a much higher speed when the thing gets STM'd every time u use it to its potential, who REALLY needs faster speeds. I think we would all agree its about time they sorted out the pathetic upload speedand canned this STM nonsense. I say, stop trying to be the fastest, just be the BEST.
Agreed.
pip08456
12-07-2008, 15:20
No, cable has a much higher possible speed than that, but it's not available yet.
I was talking about what is available especially when VM assert they provide then fastest BB in the UK when it's obvious they don't without taking STM into account.
I say, stop trying to be the fastest, just be the BEST.
Spot on!
In my opinion they had this status, back in the BY days. They've blown it by trying to keep up with the ridiculous speeds advertised (but rarely delivered upon) by the ADSL providers.
Ed.
allpag44
22-07-2008, 08:58
The reason that I have the 20Mb service is because I am a heavy user. I'm one of those terrible people who download movies,games,etc. If I just wanted to browse the Internet and send a few E-mails I would have gone for the 2Mb service and saved myself alot of money.
I'm really hacked off that my ISP can restrict my bandwidth usage as and when they feel like it. I believe that I should be recieving the service that I signed up for. I don't want to be monitoring my usage and worrying about if I'm about to exceed limits and having to plan downloads at certain times of the day. I'm paying for 20Mb so should be recieving 20Mb.
Everyone makes a choice when purchasing based on their usage. If you went to your local car dealer and had the choice of the economical family car but paid four times as much for the faster sports car, you would be very upset to find your top speed is restricted because you're doing too many track days. A bit of a stretch I know, but you expect to get what you pay for.
ragnarok
22-07-2008, 18:09
The reason that I have the 20Mb service is because I am a heavy user. I'm one of those terrible people who download movies,games,etc. If I just wanted to browse the Internet and send a few E-mails I would have gone for the 2Mb service and saved myself alot of money.
Here, here.:clap:
If they can't offer a service, don't pretend to. Everything was fine pre-STM days back on 10 meg, then ADSL2 arrived and they panic upgraded to 20 meg and it all went to pot. In came STM, it solved nothing, things are still slow in the evenings etc. and everyone is hacked off.
Be have the right attitude. Take a slightly longer term view - in a few years, you will need to have upgraded anyway so might as well invest in it now and become leader of the pack.
pip08456
22-07-2008, 19:25
It was mentioned earlier.
Stop trying to be the quickest just be the best!!!!
The only people who need more than 10Mbps are power users and they are wiling to pay for that speed and quite rightly expect it.
Wouldn't it be better if they advertised that they could suit ALL kinds of users and charge according to their requirements instead of charging a premium for 20Mbps and then bringing in STM for everybody because they oversubscribed?
ATM Be has to be the fastest ISP under the current advertising rules as they advertise "Up TO" 24 Mbps whereas VM only offer "Up To" 20Mbps yet they have started advertising as being "The Mother of all Broadbands" I think NOT!!!
An average power user who has been paying the extra for the privelige of a 20Mbps connection can only expect approximately 13.5Kbps if you include STM. Having to shape your use of a product to suit a company which has oversubscribed Has to be a NO-NO!
No doubt the VM afficianado's will come on with their excuses now but in my opinion there are none!
have these stm rates been brought in all over the country now
It was mentioned earlier.
Stop trying to be the quickest just be the best!!!!
The only people who need more than 10Mbps are power users and they are wiling to pay for that speed and quite rightly expect it.
Wouldn't it be better if they advertised that they could suit ALL kinds of users and charge according to their requirements instead of charging a premium for 20Mbps and then bringing in STM for everybody because they oversubscribed?
ATM Be has to be the fastest ISP under the current advertising rules as they advertise "Up TO" 24 Mbps whereas VM only offer "Up To" 20Mbps yet they have started advertising as being "The Mother of all Broadbands" I think NOT!!!
An average power user who has been paying the extra for the privelige of a 20Mbps connection can only expect approximately 13.5Kbps if you include STM. Having to shape your use of a product to suit a company which has oversubscribed Has to be a NO-NO!
No doubt the VM afficianado's will come on with their excuses now but in my opinion there are none!
More mad figures!
These made-up statistics may be great for Virgin bashers to quote in their posts, but they are, to be blunt, rubbish.
Yes Virgin throttle speeds, and yes they do it for a fair amount of the day... but for some part of the day people can get 'Up to 20Mbps'. Quoting figures such as 13.5kbps is just barmy, and doesn't relate, in any way, to the real world.
Quick question folks
with this new STM policy in place
does it mean that people now have the option to cancel out of any contracts they have with virgin in regard to the broadband service (and all services if on VIP package)
right now this new policy is really hurting me
i do a hell of alot of downloading and uploading (managing websites , backing up site files - 2GB, downloading game demos 360, BBC player and general video streaming - across 4 pcs )
so when i get home from work to use my connection it is awful (yes i download the odd film here and there - but SO WHAT! who honestly doesnt?? )
my main reason for getting the higher package was for the upload speed (which isnt great but is still better than i had previously ).
there doesnt seem to be a day when i cant use my connection at full speed?
at least with the old policy i could schedule my backups etc at certain times then use my pc for general browsing and downloading when im home from work -but now i cant :-(
do i have the right to cancel my services? (been a cable user seen the days of DIAMOND CABLE!! - yeah im old school baby hahaa)
pip08456
24-07-2008, 13:54
More mad figures!
These made-up statistics may be great for Virgin bashers to quote in their posts, but they are, to be blunt, rubbish.
Yes Virgin throttle speeds, and yes they do it for a fair amount of the day... but for some part of the day people can get 'Up to 20Mbps'. Quoting figures such as 13.5kbps is just barmy, and doesn't relate, in any way, to the real world.
Not mad figures at all, do the math yourself.
If you are a power user and use the full potential then you speed will be cut by 75% for 10 hours, so for 10 hours you only get 5Mbps downstream. Add to the fact that there are quite a few oversubscribed UBR's out there and some have never got anywhere near the 20 Mbps they were paying for and then you can enter the real world.
So do the math yourself and by all means prove me wrong!
Tiger33
Yes you can cancel your contract although be prepared for retentions to contact you almost daily with offers etc to try and change your mind, also a promise of things getting better.
It is up to you if you decide to change but you may end up with a better deal if you hang on in there.
Personally I hung on for another month, got a £10 discount on my monthly rental costs but still went when the promised improvement didn't happen.
Like you I'm an old hand with cable having been with them since the days of Bolton Cable.
As such a loyal customer for all those years I believe I have a right to bash VM as I had no problems until they came along!
Customer loyalty means nothing to them.
Leaving aside the issue of so called 'power users' being, apparently, incapable of scheduling their downloads, I have never had my speed drop to 13.5kbps and I don't know anyone who has. That is the real world as far as I, and thousands of others, are concerned.
Having read some of your other posts, I can see you are on a crusade to educate us. I can appreciate the thought, but lets keep it rational for goodness sake!
Not mad figures at all, do the math yourself.
If you are a power user and use the full potential then you speed will be cut by 75% for 10 hours, so for 10 hours you only get 5Mbps downstream. Add to the fact that there are quite a few oversubscribed UBR's out there and some have never got anywhere near the 20 Mbps they were paying for and then you can enter the real world.
So do the math yourself and by all means prove me wrong!
Tiger33
Yes you can cancel your contract although be prepared for retentions to contact you almost daily with offers etc to try and change your mind, also a promise of things getting better.
It is up to you if you decide to change but you may end up with a better deal if you hang on in there.
Personally I hung on for another month, got a £10 discount on my monthly rental costs but still went when the promised improvement didn't happen.
Like you I'm an old hand with cable having been with them since the days of Bolton Cable.
As such a loyal customer for all those years I believe I have a right to bash VM as I had no problems until they came along!
Customer loyalty means nothing to them.
ok thanks buddy
ill give them a call later today
so do i call and ask for retentions or cancellations?
pip08456
24-07-2008, 15:40
Leaving aside the issue of so called 'power users' being, apparently, incapable of scheduling their downloads, I have never had my speed drop to 13.5kbps and I don't know anyone who has. That is the real world as far as I, and thousands of others, are concerned.
Having read some of your other posts, I can see you are on a crusade to educate us. I can appreciate the thought, but lets keep it rational for goodness sake!
I do try to be rational. For the thousands of others who are quite happy there are equally thousands of others who aren't.
There are UBR's which are oversubscribed just as there are those that aren't.
The dissatisfied customers are in areas where the oversubscription takes place.
As regards the real world here it is as I see it, Having been with cable from year dot I progressed to dial-up when the internet came on the scene, then BB came along and I signed up straight away. I always paid for the Max package and paid a premium for it which I would never complain about because I got the service I was paying for.
If anyone asked me who the best BB provider was I would always say NTL!
Then this shower called Virgin Media came along and everything went downhill from then. Speeds were a problem before STM, I was in a trial area for STM without being informed, my UBR became oversubscribed which led to more loss of speed.
Only once in the time from Virgin Media have I achieved a speed in excess of 10Mbps whilst always being charged for "up to" 20Mbps. Whilst with NTL there was no problem.
I would have been happy if I could achieve the average 13.5Mbps I mentioned earlier.
I live in the real world, I now have a different ISP who provides everything I pay for. I would still be a VM customer if they had only done the same.
VM could do with taking a leaf out of my current ISP's book, they will disable an exchange for new customers if it looks like becoming oversubscribed and then upgrade it before taking on new customers.
I live in the "REAL" BB world, I know that no-one needs more than 10Mbps for web browsing,streaming or gaming online provided the speed actually exists.
And yes I will continue to slag off that shower called Virgin Media as an ex customer for so many years I think I'm qualified to do so!
brundles
24-07-2008, 15:45
If anyone asked me who the best BB provider was I would always say NTL!
Then this shower called Virgin Media came along and everything went downhill from then.
You are aware that it's still NTL just with a (slightly tarnished) red Virgin Media logo?
The company is still NTL is just uses the Virgin brand.
pip08456
24-07-2008, 15:55
You are aware that it's still NTL just with a (slightly tarnished) red Virgin Media logo?
The company is still NTL is just uses the Virgin brand.
Actually you are wrong.
It is a new company formed by the merger of NTL and TeleWest.
Yes they pay for the use of the VM logo.
Any other observations?
BTW I'm waiting for the monopoles commission to rule on this, BT are forced to make their lines available to other companies. The same should be said for VM. Level playing field and all that?
brundles
24-07-2008, 16:01
It is a new company formed by the merger of NTL and TeleWest.
A new company with 75% of the shares owned by the former NTL (http://news.zdnet.co.uk/communications/0,1000000085,39255859,00.htm) and NTL execs making up the exec list of the new company (Neil Berkett, current CEO, for example).
pip08456
24-07-2008, 16:06
A new company with 75% of the shares owned by the former NTL (http://news.zdnet.co.uk/communications/0,1000000085,39255859,00.htm) and NTL execs making up the exec list of the new company (Neil Berkett, current CEO, for example).
You've answered your own comment.
"A new company"!!!
brundles
24-07-2008, 16:16
A company being a new legal entity has absolutely no bearing on the reality of the companies day to day operations. On paper it's a new company, but it's controlled by NTL and still run by NTL.
I'm not suggesting that things haven't gone down hill (IMO they have) since they got their Virgin badge, but it is still NTL.
I'm not sure about your other comment on the monopolies and mergers stuff - the BT infrastructure was paid for with tax payers money but now provides income to BT as they re-sell to those other providers. That wouldn't exactly be level for cable opening their network would it as they paid for it themselves. Besides, if they did, we'd probably see greater STM levels or similar as they try and reserve bandwidth for those other companies who (will probably) have tied VM down with penalties if certain service levels aren't met.
(Mind you, perhaps that could be a good thing as it could force VM to review their infrastructure whilst giving them a source of funding to do it with.)
(I think we might be getting slightly OT now though
You've answered your own comment.
"A new company"!!!
a new company = yes, but if your living in the real world then no its the same company different name.
I would have been happy if I could achieve the average 13.5Mbps I mentioned earlier.
You actually wrote 13.5kbps, hence my disbelief.
As for 'slagging off' VM... whatever floats your boat. Many of us would have just moved on.
pip08456
24-07-2008, 17:26
A company being a new legal entity has absolutely no bearing on the reality of the companies day to day operations. On paper it's a new company, but it's controlled by NTL and still run by NTL.
I'm not suggesting that things haven't gone down hill (IMO they have) since they got their Virgin badge, but it is still NTL.
I'm not sure about your other comment on the monopolies and mergers stuff - the BT infrastructure was paid for with tax payers money but now provides income to BT as they re-sell to those other providers. That wouldn't exactly be level for cable opening their network would it as they paid for it themselves. Besides, if they did, we'd probably see greater STM levels or similar as they try and reserve bandwidth for those other companies who (will probably) have tied VM down with penalties if certain service levels aren't met.
(Mind you, perhaps that could be a good thing as it could force VM to review their infrastructure whilst giving them a source of funding to do it with.)
(I think we might be getting slightly OT now though
You are now getting there.
You agree that services have gone downhill since the rebranding-and they have.
Other companies would quite rightly buy and reserve X amount of bandwith on the system and pay for the same (Just as premium users do ATM without guarantees)
Who benefits in the end?
1) Customers-they are given choice and get what they pay for.
2) Companies - VM get paid for provisioning and from their own customer base and have the added advantage of bulk wholesale sales.
---------- Post added at 17:26 ---------- Previous post was at 17:23 ----------
ok thanks buddy
ill give them a call later today
so do i call and ask for retentions or cancellations?
Ask for cancellations. Retentions will get back to yhou over the next few days trying to persuade you to stay with them.
BTW who are you considering going to??
brundles
24-07-2008, 20:48
You are now getting there.
You agree that services have gone downhill since the rebranding-and they have.
Other companies would quite rightly buy and reserve X amount of bandwith on the system and pay for the same (Just as premium users do ATM without guarantees)
Who benefits in the end?
1) Customers-they are given choice and get what they pay for.
2) Companies - VM get paid for provisioning and from their own customer base and have the added advantage of bulk wholesale sales.
I only said it might be useful. There is always of course the (more likely I suspect) possibility that if it did happen then VM would refuse to provide any QoS guarantees and just continue with the existing architecture prioritising their own traffic.
A company is always going to protect it's own customer base as best as possible over those of competitors that it's forced to carry. (I know suggesting VM might protect our service is a bit far fetched but you get the idea).
At the moment customers do have choice - to most people, broadband is broadband. Those that distinguish (or can distinguish or even care) between ADSL and cable are still in the minority.
The problem with bulk wholesale is the size of investment they'd need to make first to have the capacity to be able to bulk wholesale. Where's that coming from? Regulators forcing them back into Chapter 11 just to try and bring in competition that you could argue isn't necessary given the ADSL market, BTs plans and Sky's fibre to the cabinet ideas?
I have a vague recollection of a discussion on whether opening the cable TV network to competitors may be an idea during the Sky basics discussions - perhaps a thread on opening the broadband network could be interesting.
STM has totally failed - speeds are still rubbish in the evenings, with YouTube not working properly and disconnects/high pings in games etc.
The basic problem - not enough bandwidth on the network - will not go away no matter how much STM they have. If a few people near you suddenly start a download or watching a video, the few hundreds of megs is under the STM limit but still overloads the area and causes problems for everyone.
Money spent on upgrade is the only option.
sorry to be a pain but im on the XL package (20meg)
what are the current STM rules?
i cant keep up with all the changes..
brundles
24-07-2008, 23:19
Current rules can be found at http://www.virginmedia.com/help/traffic-management.php
20 meg means a 6gig limit between 10AM and 3PM, then a 3GB limit between 4PM and 9PM.
pip08456
24-07-2008, 23:27
Here are things that stand ATM.
VM is the ONLY cable company available in the UK.
The Monopolies and Mergers Commission could quite easily force VM to open their network to other companies. That was not the case when there was 2 seperate companies (NTL & TW).
BT was forced to open up their network under the same rules and there are companies who supply faster BB than BT on their own network.
It will be interesting to see what happens in the future.
STM-Failed with power users
Value for money-Failed for power users
Service-Failed for power users.
Investment in the backbone-Failed
If and this is only IF the M&MC decided to force VM to open the network it would only have benefits for customers
VM has alreay said it cannot compete with Sky on the TV side. How about a deal which allowed Sky to use the VM backbone service and VM charged for it?
Can there be a monopoly on the delivery method? I say no, and think the term monopoly can only be used for content. As long as the actual service is available (TV/Phone/Whatever) then how it is delivered doesn't matter. If Virgin suddenly became the only company able to offer super fast BB speeds, then there might be some justification for allowing third party access, otherwise I don't see it happening.
What proof do you have that Virgin have 'failed' power users, apart from your intense dislike for the company? I just don't see it. Are these power users leaving in droves?
btw, Virgin said they can't compete with Sky for premium TV content. They can still provide a good part of that premium content to their customers, due to the rate card, but won't be able to source their own. Therefore I can't see why opening up the Virgin network would have any benefit at all for cable users.
Thinking about it, avoiding STM is the worst thing you can you can do from VM's point of view.
If you get STMed you can't download or upload very fast, period. If you avoid it, but then suddenly open a web page with some large images or something, you peek the full 20Mb for a few seconds, until the next page or large email. That means sudden spikes, the kind of thing that mess up streaming video or gaming for other users.
Current rules can be found at http://www.virginmedia.com/help/traffic-management.php
20 meg means a 6gig limit between 10AM and 3PM, then a 3GB limit between 4PM and 9PM.
So from 9pm for 12 hours im free..
cool i tend to set downloads from 23:00 +
pip08456
25-07-2008, 00:33
Can there be a monopoly on the delivery method? I say no, and think the term monopoly can only be used for content. As long as the actual service is available (TV/Phone/Whatever) then how it is delivered doesn't matter. If Virgin suddenly became the only company able to offer super fast BB speeds, then there might be some justification for allowing third party access, otherwise I don't see it happening.
What proof do you have that Virgin have 'failed' power users, apart from your intense dislike for the company? I just don't see it. Are these power users leaving in droves?
btw, Virgin said they can't compete with Sky for premium TV content. They can still provide a good part of that premium content to their customers, due to the rate card, but won't be able to source their own. Therefore I can't see why opening up the Virgin network would have any benefit at all for cable users.
Now get into the real world!
Yes -power users are leaving in droves, that should make you happy as the UBR will be taking less strain.
The term MONOPOLY does not mean a game or the delivery method.
BT had a monopoly on their backbone copper system and were made to open it up to other providers.
If and when VM can deliver "super fast BB speeds" remains a question especially when they are talking about 50Mbps whilst BT are investing in a 100Mbps backbone.
To date VM advertise "the mother of all broadband" at 20Mbps when it is not true!
adsl2 can and does return speeds of up to 24Mbps.
Have you entered the real world yet??
BTW ask the Post Office about the delivery method!!
Cobbydaler
25-07-2008, 00:39
Now get into the real world!
Yes -power users are leaving in droves, that should make you happy as the UBR will be taking less strain.
The term MONOPOLY does not mean a game or the delivery method.
BT had a monopoly on their backbone copper system and were made to open it up to other providers.
If and when VM can deliver "super fast BB speeds" remains a question especially when they are talking about 50Mbps whilst BT are investing in a 100Mbps backbone.
To date VM advertise "the mother of all broadband" at 20Mbps when it is not true!
adsl2 can and does return speeds of up to 24Mbps.
Have you entered the real world yet??
1. Ummm, evidence? Link?
2. As mentioned by a previous poster, the BT network was paid for by public money, VM's wasn't...
pip08456
25-07-2008, 00:49
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sibell
Little Be-ing
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:57 pm Post subject: Byebye VIrgin, Hello Be! Reply with quote
Got my line activated today! Spent about 30 mins sorting out the router which reported full connectivity but DNS wasn't resolving. I reset it and used the default DNS servers instead of the ones sent to me and things are working fine now!
Stats from the router plugged into the test socket:
Uptime: 0 days, 0:06:29
DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,217 / 15,943
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 0.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 18.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 12.0 / 25.5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 7.0 / 6.0
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 952
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 476 / 0
Should I be worried about the errors? I game alot so was thinking about enabling fastpath and moving to Annex M, but will I see much improvement with that Line Attenuation?
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fooby
Be-keeper
Posts: 303
Location: Burton-on-Trent
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:38 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
line attenuation doesn't really change, as that's line loss. Meaning how far you are from the exchange.
Those errors are very low, but you have not been connected very long.
If you can post back to us when you have 8+ hours of uptime we can advise you further Smile
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sibell
Little Be-ing
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Hey guys, got an update:
Uptime: 0 days, 23:50:29
DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,217 / 15,860
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 0.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 18.5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 12.0 / 25.5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 7.0 / 6.0
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 8 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 2 / 1,903,026
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 2 / 610
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 483 / 529
Should I bother with fastpath, or just go ahead and be thankful for what I've already got (which I am!) ?
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siteguru
Super Be-ing
Posts: 1651
Location: Strathaven
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Go for it. If it ends up being unstable then you can always go back to interleaved. Just raise a ticket and ask for a 6dB fastpath profile. Smile
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sibell
Little Be-ing
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:18 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks siteguru, after fastpath enabled:
Uptime: 0 days, 1:12:50
DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,217 / 16,763
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 0.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 18.5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 12.0 / 25.5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 7.0 / 6.0
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 12 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 1 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 9 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 617
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 546
Downloads max out at a consistent 1759KB/s! Smile
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siteguru
Super Be-ing
Posts: 1651
Location: Strathaven
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:29 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 1 / 0
Can you account for that? Keep an eye on the Loss Of stats - if they start creeping up then it would seem your line wouldn't suit fastpath.
Other than that, your speed is about right for your attenuation. (Can be better with a different router, like a Netgear DG834GT).
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sibell
Little Be-ing
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:10 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Updated stats:
Uptime: 0 days, 12:03:25
DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,217 / 16,763
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 0.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 18.5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 12.0 / 25.5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 7.0 / 6.5
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 12 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 1 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 10 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 12 / 0
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 12 / 2,651
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 4 / 2,214
Is it possible the Loss of Signal occurred when I was moved to a fastpath connection? And should I worry about any loss of framing errors?
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ourpcman
Model Be-ing
Posts: 1394
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:15 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
The "Loss Of" errors haven't changed in over 10 hours so I wouldn't worry.
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OK thhis is only one example but Hey-Ho
Re public money. That doesn't matter to the Competition Commission. Bottom line Monopolies cannot exist!!!
brundles
25-07-2008, 03:13
That post provides no indication the subscriber was a power user - the only reference they made was to playing games. They did show technical aptitude but that's not the same as a power user.
In terms of the M&MC, yes, VM may be the only cable provider of size in the UK but is that relevant? As a company they offer telephone (plenty of competition there), TV (plenty there too), broadband (as I've already said, the majority of users don't even realise there is a difference - plenty of competition in the broadband market) and mobile (again, lots of competition).
How would you make the argument that the cable transport market is suffering when end customers don't purchase cable? They just purchase services carried over cable. Services which themselves are already in a highly competitive market.
Cobbydaler
25-07-2008, 07:16
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Byebye VIrgin, Hello Be!
<snip>
One person = 'leaving in droves'?
Compelling evidence then...
1 = single
2 = couple
3 = a crowd
how many is a drove?
My turn for a moan.
Downloaded the .iso's for FreeBSD 7.0 discs (full set including docs) and Kubuntu 8.04 to keep on disc - the first heavy use for a month- I'm on the Medium (means small in non-VM language), didn't think of the time, and after an hour wallop throttled. Normally I would have updated my ports collection, but at that speed it was a bit slow.
Came back on at 21:00 tonight to normal speed.
A bit annoyed to say the least, especially as the Kubuntu .iso came from Virgin Media's own mirror, so being a bit childish I decided to stop the download, and get it from California instead :)
Still it's good to have the 'Mother of all Broadband'.
So to be even more of a child, I've scheduled to download all night, every distro I can think of - just apologies if I affect anyone in my area (joke).
The only reason I can think Virgin have needed to do this is their servers are 386's with a hamster in a wheel providing power.
/end of rant - and thankyou ;)
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