Leaving Virgin ?

[Berealwith]

I'll keep it short. I am now on the count down (30 days) then i'm gone, finished with Virgin. This has got me wondering, Who else is thinking of leaving Virgin ?

Note this is not a "Lets slag Virgin off", but keep it short are you thinking of leaving ? Yes or no

[Sirius]

I'll keep it short. I am now on the count down (30 days) then i'm gone, finished with Virgin. This has got me wondering, Who else is thinking of leaving Virgin ?

Note this is not a "Lets slag Virgin off", but keep it short are you thinking of leaving ? Yes or no

I will be if they bring in the Phorm spyware system

[Berealwith]

I know what you are saying .............. It's one hell of a thread

[Hugh]

No - unless they bring Phorm in.

[basa]

Already left (does that count ??) :D

[higgsfield]

No - unless they bring in Phorm

[whydoIneedatech]

No

I Have Too Good a Deal

Plus I would not pay BT to install a phone line.

[basa]

Plus I would not pay BT to install a phone line.

Erm ... at least Sky give it you back ! :D

[Down the Pub]

notice given tuesday, bt in tomorrow along with o2. didn't want it to come to this but after the recent happenings with my account and email is what broke the camels back - along with the various other issues over the past 12 months.

[whydoIneedatech]

Erm ... at least Sky give it you back ! :D

Tried Sky had 4 replacement Boxes in 3 months, Phantom dialling and out of 3 months with them only had 2 months service.

I got out of the contract because they broke it with the poor level of service plus I was still a Cable customer due to my phone so back I went, almost 14 years with them now through all the different guises.

[Ed2020]

The new STM rules have got me considering it. As soon as they even start trialling Phorm I will no longer need to think about it, I'll be gone.

[the-cable-guy]

I'll keep it short. I am now on the count down (30 days) then i'm gone, finished with Virgin. This has got me wondering, Who else is thinking of leaving Virgin ?

Note this is not a "Lets slag Virgin off", but keep it short are you thinking of leaving ? Yes or no

nice1 i would if i could have a phone line, but i cant afford the line rental & i'd run up massive bills.

---------- Post added at 00:41 ---------- Previous post was at 00:39 ----------

Erm ... at least Sky give it you back ! :D

not if you cant afford it in the first place. are they gonna pay for it for you upfront without you spending a penny ? i think not :dunce:

[Down the Pub]

nice1 i would if i could have a phone line, but i cant afford the line rental & i'd run up massive bills.

---------- Post added at 00:41 ---------- Previous post was at 00:39 ----------



not if you cant afford it in the first place. are they gonna pay for it for you upfront without you spending a penny ? i think not :dunce:


when i ordered the line, bt gave me the option of paying the £125 over 6 months or if i took the 18month rental then they virtually paid for it.

[ultimate]

I am advertphobic, I will cancel everything if I have advert on my browser and if I cannot stop it.

[the-cable-guy]

when i ordered the line, bt gave me the option of paying the £125 over 6 months or if i took the 18month rental then they virtually paid for it.

still £125 aint peanuts to some of us uno.

---------- Post added at 09:45 ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 ----------

I am advertphobic, I will cancel everything if I have advert on my browser and if I cannot stop it.

:LOL:

[whydoIneedatech]

I would not leave as I have too good a deal with them look to the left under my Avatar, and virtually troublefree in 14 years plus I am 2 miles from the National Headend in Knowsley so mt connection is very stable.

[LondonRoad]

Having experienced Sky and BT I'm more than happy to stay with Virgin:)

[Down the Pub]

still £125 aint peanuts to some of us uno.

---------- Post added at 09:45 ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 ----------



it's not to me either, with all the bill rises and fuel etc etc, plus we've got a new baby in the house..............at least the opportunity is there to not have to pay the whole lot up front. so yes £125 ain't peanuts to you or me, but there are options, something bt didn't give me last time i had a new line installed.

[the-cable-guy]

still i cant afford that upfront.

[Down the Pub]

still i cant afford that upfront.

that's what i was trying to say before, at the moment you don't have to pay it upfront if you don't want to. you can either

a) pay it off over 6 months with your bill, which works out at just under £21 a month

or

b) have the line over 18 months and bt pay off £95 leaving you to pay £30


so you have 3 choices , pay it up front or either of the two ways i've mentioned.

[the-cable-guy]

oh ok then. well now you can get a second hand box subscription without a phone line :o)

[mark777]

For me, they go in the bin if they don't drop Phorm by the end of May. That's after nearly 7 years.

[BenMcr]

For me, they go in the bin if they don't drop Phorm by the end of May. That's after nearly 7 years.

They haven't taken up Phorm!

[JohnHorb]

They haven't taken up Phorm!

I assume he meant if the don't come down off the fence by the end of May.

[Sirius]

They haven't taken up Phorm! Really. Then the CEO of Phorm needs to stop telling everyone they have, And that they intend to start the role out in weeks ?. Virgin will see this as a very big revenue stream and will in my opinion go ahead with this on an opt out system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5Mq-AhaeFg for proof

So we have Neil saying nothing.
Kent saying something ?

One is willing to talk in public the other is not ?

As soon as the letter arrives saying this is about to be turned on, I will be on the phone to disconnections

[BenMcr]

Really. Then the CEO of Phorm needs to stop telling everyone they have, And that they intend to start the role out in weeks ?. Virgin will see this as a very big revenue stream and will in my opinion go ahead with this on an opt out system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5Mq-AhaeFg for proof

So we have Neil saying nothing.
Kent saying something ?

One is willing to talk in public the other is not ?

As soon as the letter arrives saying this is about to be turned on, I will be on the phone to disconnections

Virgin have said something

http://www.virginmedia.com/customers/webwise.php

[Sirius]

Virgin have said something

http://www.virginmedia.com/customers/webwise.php

So WHY are they allowing Phorm to continue saying that it is ready. ?

I don't trust Virgin over this i really don't.

I now have a working BT line installed, I will be moving to BE unlimited as soon as the letter from Virgin arrives.

[oliver1948uk]

In my opinion, if this Phorm works from the point of view of the ISP's (ie it makes them money) then it will not just be VM using it. They will all jump on the bandwagon, especially BT.

I think that anybody at the moment moving from VM just because of Phorm is short sighted

[BenMcr]

So WHY are they allowing Phorm to continue saying that it is ready. ?

Virgin can't exactly stop them! However I'm sure it hasn't gone un-noticed by them what Phorm are saying

I now have a working BT line installed, I will be moving to BE unlimited as soon as the letter from Virgin arrives.

What would you do though if you got a letter saying 'Yes we are doing Phorm but you have to Opt In?'

[JohnHorb]

Virgin can't exactly stop them! However I'm sure it hasn't gone un-noticed by them what Phorm are saying



What would you do though if you got a letter saying 'Yes we are doing Phorm but you have to Opt In?'

Don't know about others, but I'd want to be VERY clear what happens to traffic which is NOT opted in, i.e. does it go anywhere near the Phorm-related kit (whether owned by Phorm or 'gifted' to VM). I.e. HOW would VM know I was NOT opted in?

[BenMcr]

Probably the same way they can tell what speed of broadband you have, whether you have PCGuard, what your e-mail addresses are, whether you are on STM etc

Anyway this thread is getting off topic

[Sirius]

Virgin can't exactly stop them! However I'm sure it hasn't gone un-noticed by them what Phorm are saying



What would you do though if you got a letter saying 'Yes we are doing Phorm but you have to Opt In?'

Leave as they cannot be trusted not to send the data through the kit anyway and just not send the adverts to me to make it look like they are not seeing my data. How can Virgin say you are Opt in to Phorm when they will have no access to Phorms servers in there own headends and Pops and will have NO visibility of what that **** bag company is doing with the data.. So yes i would still leave.

[NTLVictim]

Been with them for years...but if they adopt webspies, I'm gone.

[Sirius]

Virgin can't exactly stop them!


'

Why

If i had a company and another was lying about me i would have them in court.

[Florence]

I have moved from VM over Phorm I paid to have BT line fitted and joined Aquiss.net a smaller ISP not big enough to attract phorm plus one that has said they are not interested in using phorm. They are supplied by Entanet that is largly a business internet supplier who has also said they will not deal with phorm.

After 15years cable phone and 8yrs internet I have finally moved back to a BT line I now have a sync rate of 7meg with a ping to couinter strike of 15 to 21 vast difference to my VM ping to same servers of 50 to 400 spiking all the time. Work to resolve this was put back 3 times as far as I know perhaps still being set back.

---------- Post added at 10:37 ---------- Previous post was at 10:34 ----------

Why

If i had a company and another was lying about me i would have them in court.

Well are they lying after all VM are the ones who stuck their heads in the sand after the browstuff hit the fan.

Anyway if Phorm shares don't get suspended then the investigation will prove that VM have signed up with them and VM are the ones not speaking since it would not be the truth.

[Tarantella]

I left VM (20mb connection??!) in January after 7 years and came back in April (2mb). I started online many years ago playing games and if I don't like what what happens I'll simply go back to playing games again, and watching a bit of iPlayer to suck up some bandwidth.

What annoys me most is that their business plan does not reward long term customers with automatic discounts but you have to phone up and threaten to leave to get them to drop prices, whilst all the while they offer new customers cheaper deals.

If you see your customers as one year clients then that's what you will end up getting. It's that simple.

[BenMcr]

Virgin don't. All multi service bundles like the 2 for £20/3 for £30/VIP have no end date. This has been in place since Virgin launched in Feb 2007

The problem is the ex-ntl/ex-tw pricing and migrating those customer correctly to current options

[Florence]

BenMcr those options are worthless if your privacy is under threat from phorm. There is no way I will accept that amount of intrusion into my privacy for any company I pay to have a service from that is the bottom line I pay for my service I expect respect and my privacy protected, not sold out to an advertising platform. I pay for the bandwidth that has limits on it or slow down why should it be used up with forced unwanted adverts.

If people feel strongly enough about their privacy and if they lose trust in the ISP then regardless of what the cost or loss to speed they will move elsewhere..

[BenMcr]

I'm not disagreeing that IF Virgin adopt Phorm then people will leave and may have good grounds to do so. Personally I'm not a fan of it at all.

But it hasn't happened yet. And no-one knows how Virgin may implement it if they do (not even Virgin as they have only done lab tests so far)

[Bonglet]

But it hasn't happened yet. And no-one knows how Virgin may implement it if they do (not even Virgin as they have only done lab tests so far)

I beg to differ on the lab tests especially since i saw the same dns sysip.net as documented by bt customers on the illegal trials on vm in 2007 belive it or not and i belive a good few other people had the problems i had but put it down to virus or browser hijack at the time.

I also belive that vm also did these trials roughly as i can recall 1-2 month after the VM name rebrand, as a company just like bt vm could not do just lab tests to many tick boxes have to be ticked before it is fully rolled out, how many people would join a trial that involves you being spied upon with no benefit compared to a trial for extra bandwith not very many im sure you'll agree, plus those network impact reports have to tick all the right boxes before live also.

Considering vm changed there T&C's in the rebrand to accomodate phorm for such a trial in 2007 were in place, then and the very fact that they were going to roll out by now if the bt stuff didnt hit the fan (checkout the youtube videos of kent posted by phorm themselves promoting phorm back in febuary-march saying all the 3 isp's were having phorm turned on in a couple of weeks) is just another part of all the puzzle.
Especially more in my eyes considering vm have ignored my last 2 emails where all i wanted was a written denial by themselves that i was no part of any 2007 trial of any phorm kit by hand or e-mail.

If any high up vm employee sees this prove me wrong, my calls to support in between about may-july 2007 should be documented by yourselves.

Instant switch off if phorm ever goes live by myself, been a customer for over 6 years a 18 month bt line contract and be unlimited will sort me out.

Pity all the good work telewest done with the customer back in the day has gone and all were left with is not a lot.

[Florence]

I'm not disagreeing that IF Virgin adopt Phorm then people will leave and may have good grounds to do so. Personally I'm not a fan of it at all.

But it hasn't happened yet. And no-one knows how Virgin may implement it if they do (not even Virgin as they have only done lab tests so far)

I left after I was passed a message from a friend who kows someone high up in VM say it wasn't so much if thye implement this more when. They also said they wouldn't like to be the person to sort out the mess if it went tits up since it is a load of servers i a line.

For me that is enough to lose faith and trust since we all know what the yanks are like see dollars and the blinkers go up they become deaf, dumb and blind to everything but the dollars.

[slowcoach]

Microsoft has been calling home with our information for years, many proprietary applications routinely call home, what information they are collecting and passing home we can only guess, but you can be sure they will always want more of it. Phorm is just one more information collector on the long list.
Our on-line activities are already well known by many companies so it is a little late to start worrying now, unless you have dark secrets lurking in the closet. :p:

[Berealwith]

Rumor has it ................ it was part of the deal to get back some of those programmes, that got lost.....get it "lost"....you get them back but you must take on phorm as part of the deal......like i said its only a rumor.

sorry on topic............looks like more will leave if Phorm comes in

[HSp8]

although I don't want phorm/STM, speed is the most important factor for me, and as an early morning downloader, I tend to get full speeds when I need them

yes, it's expensive, but I don't think I could stand going back to ADSL

[xspeedyx]

I dont see why people are so up in air about phorm as slow coach said there are companies that collect your informatoion already its market research I bet the people who are kicking off regarding phorm dont even know how Phorm works and just jumping on the band wagon its gonna be either a opt in or opt out if you guys know so much make sure u opt out all ISP will do this soon

[ceedee]

I dont see why people are so up in air about phorm as slow coach said there are companies that collect your informatoion already its market research I bet the people who are kicking off regarding phorm dont even know how Phorm works and just jumping on the band wagon its gonna be either a opt in or opt out if you guys know so much make sure u opt out all ISP will do this soon

Applications 'phoning home', search engine tracking and "market research" have virtually nothing in common with Phorm, except they all compromise the user's privacy to some extent.

If you'd kept up with the Phorm technical discussions you'd know that we're eagerly awaiting details of how Phorm's opt-in/out will work without either profiling someone who's opted out or relying on a cookie (which has been ruled out by European privacy guidelines).

And a very large part of the determination to defeat Phorm is precisely to prevent other ISPs from considering this or other ad-laden, wiretapping schemes.

Maybe the guys who'd rather leave VM than accept Phorm know a little more about it than you do?

[Sirius]

I dont see why people are so up in air about phorm as slow coach said there are companies that collect your informatoion already its market research I bet the people who are kicking off regarding phorm dont even know how Phorm works and just jumping on the band wagon its gonna be either a opt in or opt out if you guys know so much make sure u opt out all ISP will do this soon

Your wrong in o so many ways.

I do know how phorm works. I spent a few days reading the patent application to make sure i did understand it. I have been in the telecommunications industry for the last 16 years and have been involved in the Internet side of that for the last 5 years.

I think i can make a judgement on Phorm and that judgment is that i want no bloody part of it and i certainly do not want to be funding there business from my private click stream or data .

What gives them the right to use my data and sell it.

Tell me this ?

If you Opt Out will the data still be profiled and you will just not receive the adverts.

Why are they not going to use the Opt In method according to the CEO of Phorm "Could it be we would all not Opt In which would make there system useless"

Why do Phorm want to install there servers in the Headends and Pop sites and then refuse VM, BT, CPW any access to them. What have they got to hide by doing that.

If Phorm are ethical why have they been up to no good on the Wiki site and Allegedly attacking a certain website with virus and spyware. In other words you cannot change a leopard's spots :)

NOT every ISP will sign up with Phorm.



Why is the CEO of Phorm stating this is about to go live, If he is lying about that WHY are VM not jumping all over him and telling him to stop. ??????
And finally i do not want my Internet connection anywhere near 121 media Aka Phorm or there employed Hackers

Anything else you want to have a dig at of those of use that DONT want Phorm ?

unless you have dark secrets lurking in the closet. :p:


No dark secrets, Just don't agree with the 121 media-Phorm spyware.

[lucevans]

I dont see why people are so up in air about phorm as slow coach said there are companies that collect your informatoion already its market research I bet the people who are kicking off regarding phorm dont even know how Phorm works and just jumping on the band wagon its gonna be either a opt in or opt out if you guys know so much make sure u opt out all ISP will do this soon

Then let me explain to you why I am so up in air (sic) about Phorm:

Let me first say that whatever technical or legal difficulties this system suffers from, as far as I am concerned, the single most important reason to prevent it's use is simply this: it is morally wrong. To spy on people against their wishes, who have committed no offence, is just plain wrong whatever the reason, and particularly if it is for someone else's profit. Before you say "you can opt out": No, you can't. You can opt out of receiving targeted advertisements, but you can't be certain that doing so also prevents the interception and analysis of your clickstream data, and in the world of online security, uncertainty is no better than knowing that your computer has been compromised.

Having read and understood Richard Clayton's technical paper on Phorm's OIX system, I have concluded that it represents a new level of intrusion that no currently-employed system comes even close to in terms of it's obnoxiousness or ubiquity. The point is this; with all the other data mining systems currently out there it is perfectly possible to avoid them or defeat them if they are server-based (such as google's tracking system), or avoid installing them if they are client-side (e.g. spyware code that piggybacks on "free" downloaded software).
If your ISP hardwires the system into your physical connection to the internet, you have no control over it's functionality and no means by which to remove it or bypass it.
There is also a significant question over trust: not all organisations are equal when it comes to trusting them with your personal data.
Given Phorm's spyware history, I'm far less inclined to trust them with my clickstream data than I would a large, well-known company that has a history of producing software that people actually want and find useful in their everyday lives (Google). A real world analogy: given the choice, would you rather have your salary paid into a NatWest bank account, or a Bank of Zimbabwe account?
I only have Phorm's word for it that their systems are secure and cannot be exploited to harvest more from my data stream than randomised advertising category data. As I'm sure you are aware, deep packet inspection software is highly configurable, and can be used to analyse data in almost unlimited ways. I don't believe Phorm's assurances.
Finally, there is the performance hit that people who understand network design better than you or I are predicting if this system is rolled out. The mutliple redirects which will be triggered for every port 80 GET request will put further strain on Virgin Media'a already oversubscribed infrastructure, and what will happen to our internet connection if the Phorm system falls over?

---------- Post added at 11:55 ---------- Previous post was at 11:46 ----------

unless you have dark secrets lurking in the closet. :p:

That's what RIPA and warrants are for: the ability to track the online activities of lawbreakers has been available to the authorities for years, and Phorm is not related to anything so worthy: it about destroying peoples' privacy in the pursuit of profit :devsmoke:, not justice :angel:.

[Sirius]

Then let me explain to you why I am so up in air (sic) about Phorm:

Let me first say that whatever technical or legal difficulties this system suffers from, as far as I am concerned, the single most important reason to prevent it's use is simply this: it is morally wrong. To spy on people against their wishes, who have committed no offence, is just plain wrong whatever the reason, and particularly if it is for someone else's profit. Before you say "you can opt out": No, you can't. You can opt out of receiving targeted advertisements, but you can't be certain that doing so also prevents the interception and analysis of your clickstream data, and in the world of online security, uncertainty is no better than knowing that your computer has been compromised.

Having read and understood Richard Clayton's technical paper on Phorm's OIX system, I have concluded that it represents a new level of intrusion that no currently-employed system comes even close to in terms of it's obnoxiousness or ubiquity. The point is this; with all the other data mining systems currently out there it is perfectly possible to avoid them or defeat them if they are server-based (such as google's tracking system), or avoid installing them if they are client-side (e.g. spyware code that piggybacks on "free" downloaded software).
If your ISP hardwires the system into your physical connection to the internet, you have no control over it's functionality and no means by which to remove it or bypass it.
There is also a significant question over trust: not all organisations are equal when it comes to trusting them with your personal data.
Given Phorm's spyware history, I'm far less inclined to trust them with my clickstream data than I would a large, well-known company that has a history of producing software that people actually want and find useful in their everyday lives (Google). A real world analogy: given the choice, would you rather have your salary paid into a NatWest bank account, or a Bank of Zimbabwe account?
I only have Phorm's word for it that their systems are secure and cannot be exploited to harvest more from my data stream than randomised advertising category data. As I'm sure you are aware, deep packet inspection software is highly configurable, and can be used to analyse data in almost unlimited ways. I don't believe Phorm's assurances.
Finally, there is the performance hit that people who understand network design better than you or I are predicting if this system is rolled out. The mutliple redirects which will be triggered for every port 80 GET request will put further strain on Virgin Media'a already oversubscribed infrastructure, and what will happen to our internet connection if the Phorm system falls over?

---------- Post added at 11:55 ---------- Previous post was at 11:46 ----------



That's what RIPA and warrants are for: the ability to track the online activities of lawbreakers has been available to the authorities for years, and Phorm is not related to anything so worthy: it about destroying peoples' privacy for profit, not justice.

:clap:

Why do those that seem to like Phorm always say " what have you got to hide, What dark secrets do you have." :mad:

[frogstamper]

No I'm staying, there are things I don't like about VM, but I do like my 20mb BB, always over 18mb, also VOD which can only get even better. Ive been stung before with the "grass being greener", until you get there!!. So I'm staying put for now.:)

[slowcoach]

We don’t know what information is being collected by any of the companies who go in for data mining but, it appears to me, people are happy to have their data collected provided they receive a tangible benefit in return.
The fact that we don’t know what happens to that data once collected rules out assuming if a company is good or bad, the fact is we do not know who is good and who is bad, however, from past history we can safely assume that the Banks and Microsoft will not have any qualms about supplying our data to anyone, whatever their agenda, willing to pay the price.

The data mining companies usually say that they are collecting our information in order to provide improvements to their products and services when in reality it is just a means of gaining more revenue, as if they haven’t enough money already.

I won’t bring up Information is Power, as we all know that these plutocrats are all proven megalomaniacs.

The fact that the Data Protection Act allows for the mining and selling of third party data just shows how deep the corruption runs, no doubt the Government is one of the biggest culprits seeing as they store more of our details than anyone else.

Just for the record, I am against any company or individual who steal my data, at the least they are devious but more likely they are totally corrupt.

[lucevans]

We don’t know what information is being collected by any of the companies who go in for data mining but, it appears to me, people are happy to have their data collected provided they receive a tangible benefit in return.
The fact that we don’t know what happens to that data once collected rules out assuming if a company is good or bad, the fact is we do not know who is good and who is bad, however, from past history we can safely assume that the Banks and Microsoft will not have any qualms about supplying our data to anyone, whatever their agenda, willing to pay the price.

The data mining companies usually say that they are collecting our information in order to provide improvements to their products and services when in reality it is just a means of gaining more revenue, as if they haven’t enough money already.

I won’t bring up Information is Power, as we all know that these plutocrats are all proven megalomaniacs.

The fact that the Data Protection Act allows for the mining and selling of third party data just shows how deep the corruption runs, no doubt the Government is one of the biggest culprits seeing as they store more of our details than anyone else.

Just for the record, I am against any company or individual who steal my data, at the least they are devious but more likely they are totally corrupt.

Not everyone is happy to be data mined - me for one. That's why I try to minimize my everyday exposure to such systems, like not having any "loyalty" cards and always ticking the box that says "you may not use my information for marketing purposes or pass them on to third parties". I may or may not be in a minority...I refer you to your own Mark Twain quotation!

I don't agree with your assertion that we can't tell good companies from bad: whilst a previously-thought good company may be revealed to have done something naughty from time to time, it is certainly possible to blacklist "bad" companies for past misdemeanors (Phorm, formerly know as 121 Media, for example).

My own security rule of thumb is "once a crook, always a crook" so I operate a one strike rule with companies I choose to do business with - i.e. if they have ever done anything I consider unacceptable, they've burnt their bridges as far as my custom is concerned.

The Data Protection Act also gives the data subject (you) ultimate control over the mining and selling of your data by giving you the authority to issue the data controller of a company a DPA Notice, specifying how that company may and may not process your data. If you don't want them to sell it to third parties, the Act gives you the legal authority to insist that they do not. Failure to comply will ultimately result in heavy fines, thus totally negating the financial gain to them of selling your data in the first place.

[ceedee]

Just for the record, I am against any company or individual who steal my data, at the least they are devious but more likely they are totally corrupt.

In that case, I suspect an imposter has been posting in your name:
Our on-line activities are already well known by many companies so it is a little late to start worrying now, unless you have dark secrets lurking in the closet. :p:

Could you cite some sources for your claims concerning MicroShaft, banks and 'data miners' who can access and deal in our browsing history as Phorm hope to?

[xspeedyx]

As people seem unhappy if VM do bring Phorm in why dont you just Opt out because if u hate phorm you will need to have BT Line which are using Phorm anyways, so I am thinking you will get rid of VM because you dont want to fund phorm but you will end up someway funding phorm as you will use a BT line

[kt88man]

As people seem unhappy if VM do bring Phorm in why dont you just Opt out because if u hate phorm you will need to have BT Line which are using Phorm anyways, so I am thinking you will get rid of VM because you dont want to fund phorm but you will end up someway funding phorm as you will use a BT line

LLU

[webcrawler2050]

The real question, I ask, is "Opt Out" truly opt out as the name suggests. Personally I dont think it is. I also believe our government has something to do with Phorm, it would make sense, especially with the illegal downloads etc.

Personally, if this is implemented, it will cripple VM as a business. People will leave in the flock fulls.


As this link says: http://www.webwise.com/privacy/can-choose-NA.html

You can choose, I think its complete and utter rubbish. SOmething isnt right here and we should all stand up for it. Its about time, ths country stopped trying to control its people to the point where we hae no freedom, whats next, monitoring when you go to the loo?

[Sirius]

As people seem unhappy if VM do bring Phorm in why dont you just Opt out because if u hate phorm you will need to have BT Line which are using Phorm anyways, so I am thinking you will get rid of VM because you dont want to fund phorm but you will end up someway funding phorm as you will use a BT line

BT line but using BE Unlimited LLU, Pray tell how that involves Phorm. You go on about users getting worked up over something they nothing about as you say. I suggest you read up on it yourself.

[ceedee]

BT line but using BE Unlimited LLU, Pray tell how that involves Phorm. You go on about users getting worked up over something they nothing about as you say. I suggest you read up on it yourself.

Thank you, Sirius.
You put that *far* more politely than I could have.

[Sirius]

Thank you, Sirius.
You put that *far* more politely than I could have.

:angel:

[xspeedyx]

All I am is saying VM havent started using Phorm yet and even if they do you have a choice to either opt out or opt in I dont like the idea of Phorm hence why I will just make sure I am opted out of the system comapnies bring new ideas in all the time and will always not be able to please everyone, all I am trying to really say is if you can get around it then why are you worried and as for all ur worries if Phorm where that made i.e stealing personal information the ISP that wanna use it wouldnt be as it would be illegal, I am trying to say I am sticking up for phorm I am just seeing from a netural point of view

[slowcoach]

In that case, I suspect an imposter has been posting in your name:
The two statements do not conflict with each other, I despise them for doing it whilst I know that it is going on and has been for as long as they have been able to do it.


Could you cite some sources for your claims concerning MicroShaft, banks and 'data miners' who can access and deal in our browsing history as Phorm hope to? I never said Microsoft/Banks were stealing our browsing history, the fact is we do not know what data they collect and what happens to it afterwards.
In the case of Microsoft we do know that they read the disk to check if your copy of their application is legit, we also know they check to see if you need any updates, what we don’t know is what else they are doing because they cover their tracks.

In the case of Banks/Supermarkets, your spending habits are a valuable commodity, to be able to filter data just containing details of customers who for instance regularly buy wine in a certain price range makes this information worth many times the normal value, this type of filtered information is critical for some other company wishing to have a successful targeted marketing campaign.
Hell, they are that greedy and short termed they will even sell your data to one of their rivals.
Avoiding Phorm still leaves us vulnerable to the thousands of other data collectors.

There are the companies who do nothing else but buy and sell data, they will source data from all and sundry, very little you do today goes unrecorded by someone.

[Wild Oscar]

All I am is saying VM havent started using Phorm yet and even if they do you have a choice to either opt out or opt in

With respect Darthlinux , you are missing the point!

You are only opting-in or opting-out of recieving targeted ads ... your surfing data has already been intercepted and analysed ..

:td:

[BenMcr]

With respect Darthlinux , you are missing the point!

You are only opting-in or opting-out of recieving targeted ads ... your surfing data has already been intercepted and analysed ..

:td:

How do you know that?

[ceedee]

How do you know that?

Nobody *knows* it but that is how Phorm explained how their system worked, how Richard Clayton understands that it works, how BT have described how their implementation will work and the only way that advertising marketing commentators reckon that Phorm will be profitable.

Of course, VM could surprise the entire world and have found another way of implementing Phorm that'll satisfy every privacy concern. But then you'd have thought that if that was the case, they'd have publicised their proceedure to counter some of the negative PR VM have suffered.

I'll concentrate on what's known so far and not hold my breath.


On a different tack: perhaps VM have already decided to drop Phorm (as rumours suggest) but are waiting for the next bit of bad news (nationwide daytime STM?) before letting us know?

[BenMcr]

On a different tack: perhaps VM have already decided to drop Phorm (as rumours suggest) but are waiting for the next bit of bad news (nationwide daytime STM?) before letting us know?

Again, how can they drop something they haven't introduced???

[cadex]

Hell no, Im not leaving Virgin!
Always had amazing service from them, even if they introduce phorm I probably wouldn't switch, it's not worth the hassle as I ignore all adverts on the net anyway!

[ceedee]

On a different tack: perhaps VM have already decided to drop Phorm (as rumours suggest) but are waiting for the next bit of bad news (nationwide daytime STM?) before letting us know?
Again, how can they drop something they haven't introduced???

If a bunch of armed police officers ask you to "drop the smoking gun," would you reply that you can't because you've not introduced it yet?
:)

From VM's website (http://www.virginmedia.com/customers/webwise.php):
"You may have heard that Virgin Media is currently working with a company called Phorm about the possible introduction of a technology called ‘Webwise’."

drop (STOP)
verb [T]
1 to stop doing or planning something, especially an activity:
I'm going to drop yoga and do aerobics instead.
Can you drop what you're doing and help me with this report?
(Source: Cambridge Advance Learners' Dictionary (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=23995&dict=CALD))

[BenMcr]

I know what drop means, but most people infer that if you drop something you already have it.

If armed police tell you to drop the smoking gun, it may not be smoking, but 99 times out of 100 you are still holding a gun. (the other time it is probably a table leg)

If you had said 'I hope Virgin don't introduced/start/commence with Phorm' I would agree :D

[Sirius]

Again, how can they drop something they haven't introduced???

Well according to the CEO of Phorm they are ready to deploy. VM don't seem to want to stop him saying that ether, Now if that is a lie Its a bit strange That VM are not telling him to stop. If i was running a business and Phorm lied about when i was deploying i would have them in court if they did not retract it. ??????


I really dont trust VM over this one little bit.

[ceedee]

I know what drop means, but most people infer that if you drop something you already have it.
I think VM already *do* have it -- they're just waiting for the right time to tell us whether it'll be implemented or not.

If armed police tell you to drop the smoking gun, it may not be smoking, but 99 times out of 100 you are still holding a gun. (the other time it is probably a table leg)
RIP Harry Stanley.
Mind you, VM *are* still holding a smoking Phorm... :)

If you had said 'I hope Virgin don't introduced/start/commence with Phorm' I would agree :D
Just to muddy the waters a little further, how about:
On a different tack: perhaps VM have already decided not to introduce, start or commence Webwise and are planning to drop Phorm (as rumours suggest) from a very high building but are waiting for the next bit of bad news (nationwide daytime STM?) before letting us know?

[BenMcr]

Mind you, VM *are* still holding a smoking Phorm... :)

Shouldn't that be 'holding a steaming pile of Phorm'?

Just to muddy the waters a little further, how about:
On a different tack: perhaps VM have already decided not to introduce, start or commence Webwise and are planning to drop Phorm (as rumours suggest) from a very high building but are waiting for the next bit of bad news (nationwide daytime STM?) before letting us know?

Much Better :D

[ceedee]

Mind you, VM *are* still holding a smoking Phorm... :)
Shouldn't that be 'holding a steaming pile of Phorm'?

:rofl:
If you say so, Ben.
You're evidently closer to it than me...

:nworthy:

[BenMcr]

Well it does seem to have already hit the fan, as it were ;)

[Dephormation]

I'm a gonner. That includes all Virgin Media services too, including the mobile.

I also suspect they trialled this software in 2006/7. I have records of complaints made to vm.f at the time (including my own) about strange faults affecting web traffic. After the revelations about BT trials, I simply don't trust VirginMedia any more.

My internet connection is simply too important to me to be compromised by idiots like Phorm. I don't want to share any aspect of my net surfing with a bunch of Adware/Spyware merchants based in Moscow/Delware. And I don't want Virgin's 'Internet Product Architect' operating my service, if he can't understand what's wrong with Phorm.

So the choice was made for me. Aquiss have been great, I'm actually getting a faster connection from them than I had with Virgin.

Here's some tips if you want to move to a decent ISP. (http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?2888)

Pete.

[Dai]

How do you know that?

As I understand it extra hardware is introduced into the 'chain' to enable the analysis work. There is no obvious way to avoid the whole client datastream for every customer having to pass through this equipment. It is only *after* cookie analysis has taken place that the opt-in or opt-out status can be decided. At that time the decision is made whether or not to send adverts based on your opt-in status. However, by that time your data has already entered the system. Now how many of us really believe that any commercial organisation is just going to dump that valuable data?

[Florence]

As I understand it extra hardware is introduced into the 'chain' to enable the analysis work. There is no obvious way to avoid the whole client datastream for every customer having to pass through this equipment. It is only *after* cookie analysis has taken place that the opt-in or opt-out status can be decided. At that time the decision is made whether or not to send adverts based on your opt-in status. However, by that time your data has already entered the system. Now how many of us really believe that any commercial organisation is just going to dump that valuable data?

You are correct in this there is no way to avoid the servers placed in line by Phorm, there are a lot of them. If you are planning to stay I would take a few tracerts to sites and save to a file dated then re run the test to see if extra hops are added later this would be the servers added in to harvest your details.

[|Kippa|]

I am staying with them at the moment, but if STM gets any worse then I am off. It is worse for me as I am in the new STM trials. For me STM time is 10am - 3pm then 4pm - 9pm, which is an absolute pain in the arse. It was bad enough having 4pm to 9pm but with the new times it makes things a lot harder. If they go even further, then I have probably had it with them.

As for me I share legit files with friends, 99% of the time this is stuff like gaming files like patches and gaming maps and the like. For upload speed in the UK I had a good upload rate and was quite happy to send my friends like maps and small gaming patches. No that I have such a lot of STM on my upload rate during the day I have decided to get a hosted dedicated server to share stuff with my gaming files with my friends. It has worked out cheaper than I thought. I now have a dedicated server for £19.99 a month, which has 250gb hd, 100mbit up and down and no sharing quota. That has made sharing things with my friends a lot easier.

[the-cable-guy]

well i have STM from 7pm-12am not matter if i download owt or not.