VM admit that STM hours vary without notice [Archive]

View Full Version : VM admit that STM hours vary without notice

ceedee

23-03-2008, 12:09

Hi

KANA EMAIL REF: 2747xxx

Thanks for getting in touch with the Virgin Media Support team.

After looking in to this for you, I can confirm that you have hit our download amount threshold. The times change on a bank holiday and weekend.

As this started around 1pm, it will last until 6pm. I do apologise fot his, but for any further information please go here

http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/internet/traffic.html

If there's anything else we can help with, please let us know.

Kind regards,

Mod edit (Gavin): Personal info removed
Econtact Support Team
Virgin Media
KANA EMAIL REF:2747xxx

As far as I'm aware this is the first (quotable) admission from VM that they are routinely implementing STM out of the published hours despite there being no mention on the VM website.

Or have I got this completely wrong?

BenMcr

23-03-2008, 12:16

Nope you are right there. First I've heard of the weekend hours being different from the weekday ones.

Not good :(

Toto

23-03-2008, 12:32

That seems a complete admission yes, and I can't see what STM times apply for weekends and bank holidays, unless I missed something obvious.

whydoIneedatech

23-03-2008, 12:33

Some weekday times are slowly changing depending on region and UBR capacity.

moaningmags

23-03-2008, 12:36

And tech support look like liars and idiots because they don't know about it.

Toto

23-03-2008, 12:38

ceedee

23-03-2008, 12:39

Some weekday times are slowly changing depending on region and UBR capacity.

That email was referring to the afternoon of last Friday (a bank holiday, for later readers) and the user was already STM'd by 1pm. Which would indicate that it had 'started' late morning.
I'd say that was quite a *drastic* change...

Any idea if/when VM intend to inform us of these new STM limits?
(And the Tech Support staff too?)

fatassmichael

23-03-2008, 12:39

Some weekday times are slowly changing depending on region and UBR capacity.

But to quote the traffic management policy,

Will the thresholds change?

The way that our customers use their broadband is changing all the time, so it's possible that in the future we may increase or decrease the thresholds - don't worry though, we'll always let you know on our website if we're going to make any changes, and we don't expect the thresholds to change very often.

Seems VM are trying to shaft us again without letting us know.

ceedee

23-03-2008, 12:41

And tech support look like liars and idiots because they don't know about it.

I'm actually as angry about that as I am about discovering they've changed the rules without bothering to notify us.

I bet TS will be rather 'upset'...

brundles

23-03-2008, 12:42

Not happy at all at that admission.

While I don't agree with having a limited connection during peak hours, I have configured my router to block certain types of traffic (i.e. newsgroups!) appropriately during that time so I don't go over the threshold.

How the hell am I supposed to manage my usage to avoid STM if I don't actually know when the triggers are? :mad:

whydoIneedatech

23-03-2008, 12:42

But to quote the traffic management policy,

Will the thresholds change?

The way that our customers use their broadband is changing all the time, so it's possible that in the future we may increase or decrease the thresholds - don't worry though, we'll always let you know on our website if we're going to make any changes, and we don't expect the thresholds to change very often.

Seems VM are trying to shaft us again without letting us know.

You will find out if you ring to complain about slow speeds at unusual times like before Midday!!!

moaningmags

23-03-2008, 12:49

Upset is a very mild term for how I feel about this.
I'm furious, HTF am I supposed to do my job properly
when I'm missing information??

Gary L

23-03-2008, 13:03

This company enjoys lying to its customers. they get a big buzz from lying and cheating its customers. they think they're really clever always lying and deceiving its customers.

TraxData

23-03-2008, 13:07

The STM changes (for weekends/bank hols) in some areas is 12pm-9pm

ceedee

23-03-2008, 13:10

I can confirm that this information is incorrect, the operating times for
STM do not change. Whilst we are aware of instances of it triggering
outside the normal hours, these cases are usually escalated to find the
cause

--
Kind Regards
Dxxx Lxxxxxx
Virgin Media Technical Support
http://status2.virginmedia.com/

Left-hand / right-hand problem?

HDFootyMan

23-03-2008, 13:10

Not happy at all at that admission.

Same here. Whoever updates the website should be sacked.

First its the XL+/Triple XL package, which I didn't know about until a visit to another cable forum, and now the STM times change at the weekend????

And yet none of this info is on the website.

Simply not good enough.

TraxData

23-03-2008, 13:11

Left-hand / right-hand problem?

Yes...as STM times are changing soon. (Only for really oversubscribed areas, this is so VM dont have to pay to upgrade anything)

moaningmags

23-03-2008, 13:12

Originally Posted by ceedee
Left-hand / right-hand problem?

Nope, just a case of making support look stupid and unreliable to customers.
We'll no doubt find out after the rest of the world.

Gary L

23-03-2008, 13:15

Kind Regards
Dxxx Lxxxxxx
Virgin Media Technical Support

Just wondering why you have to hide the identity of the person you are quoting?

TheNorm

23-03-2008, 13:16

ceedee

23-03-2008, 13:32

Just wondering why you have to hide the identity of the person you are quoting?
I only obscured the full name of the TS staff as Gavin had edited the full name of the sender of the original email and I've no wish to offend him.

I have no wish to make this personal and the person's name is easily identifiable by looking in the newsgroup if you're curious.

Stuart

23-03-2008, 14:14

We don't generally allow people to publish personal details of employees because it can cause hassle for the employees. If a person has done something good, they can end up flooded with emails.

If they have done something bad and it has been raised with VM (either by the customer, or one of our contacts) then publishing their details can interfere with the resulting investigation.

Toto

23-03-2008, 19:23

Yes...as STM times are changing soon. (Only for really oversubscribed areas, this is so VM dont have to pay to upgrade anything)

So those areas won't be offered 50Mb service? Or is this just your personal opinion?

popper

23-03-2008, 19:54

It does make the STM system a bit of a farce in my opinion. VM have announced the peak times STM kicks in, thereby encouraging heavy users to download off-peek. Now they appear to be moving the goal posts a little without any supporting information.

Poor in my opinion, although I do agree with the STM policy in principal.

its far more than moving the goal posts a little...though.

it appears from the OP info, that infact it is now in operation at anytime of the day, not just the officially Notifyed 4pm-9pm only.

at least every weekend and BH, perhaps even your average week day now?.

---------- Post added at 19:54 ---------- Previous post was at 19:43 ----------

Some weekday times are slowly changing depending on region and UBR capacity.

you say that like its perfectly fine for Virgin Media to totally ignore their very own T&C contract setting out the legally binding 30 day 'official notice' of any chance BEFORE they activate the option they want to change :shocked:

Toto

23-03-2008, 19:55

Actually, I found a post on the VM newsgroups, and it seems our O/P was given some innacurate info. LOL.

Quote from Virginmedia.discussion.broadband....

Hi ceedee

I can confirm that this information is incorrect, the operating times for
STM do not change. Whilst we are aware of instances of it triggering
outside the normal hours, these cases are usually escalated to find the causeThey admit there may be faults that trigger STM out of the hours stated though.

How odd isn't it?

cleshe

23-03-2008, 20:35

TraxData

23-03-2008, 20:36

Actually, I found a post on the VM newsgroups, and it seems our O/P was given some innacurate info. LOL.

Quote from Virginmedia.discussion.broadband....

They admit there may be faults that trigger STM out of the hours stated though.

How odd isn't it?

I can assure you, STM times are going to change in some areas, if you want to know how good my info is you can go back and look how i've been right every time so far ;)

Again, this is only for area's that are really oversubscribed.

There have been numerous times where people have been shaped way before 4pm, that was because of the STM trials.

As for where i got the info, someone high up at VM =)

AbyssUnderground

23-03-2008, 20:38

This will be why I was STM'ed this morning at 11.30am then... VERY annoyed since I needed to send someone a file quickly only to find my upload limited to 100Kbps :mad:

Toto

23-03-2008, 20:39

I can assure you, STM times are going to change in some areas, if you want to know how good my info is you can go back and look how i've been right every time so far ;)

Again, this is only for area's that are really oversubscribed.

There have been numerous times where people have been shaped way before 4pm, that was because of the STM trials.

As for where i got the info, someone high up at VM =)

I'm not doubting they will change in some areas, considering the times have already changed this year.

Can you confirm that not all areas will be upgraded to 50Mb, as per your previous post about VM not wanting to perform upgrades?

piggy

23-03-2008, 20:53

TraxData

23-03-2008, 21:07

I'm not doubting they will change in some areas, considering the times have already changed this year.

Can you confirm that not all areas will be upgraded to 50Mb, as per your previous post about VM not wanting to perform upgrades?

VM can simply not afford to upgrade all area's, not for a while yet, around 70% of the network will be upgraded this year.

Rest wont be touched until VM has the money to do so.

Even when those area's are upgraded for 50mbit, it may lift weight off the docsis1 network but the 12-9 weekend STM will be staying...but that's because some area's having nearly 6 times the amount of users its supposed to have.

Woodgar

23-03-2008, 21:15

Why don't VM use a "rolling" STM system, where high users are capped only when the network traffic is heavy? If traffic is not suffering, there is no need for STM.

For example, if traffic is 90% capacity at 8.30pm, the top 3% downloaders (over the past hour) are capped. The situation is reviewed every half hour.
Interesting idea, and it would make it more fair.

If the stated aim of STM is to Ã¢â‚¬Å“punish those abusing the systemÃ¢â‚¬Â, then it would certainly seem to be fairer to use a more controlled method of capping rather than the blanket system we have now where everyone is capped irrespective of their actual affect on other users.

Toto

23-03-2008, 21:30

VM can simply not afford to upgrade all area's, not for a while yet, around 70% of the network will be upgraded this year.

Rest wont be touched until VM has the money to do so.

Even when those area's are upgraded for 50mbit, it may lift weight off the docsis1 network but the 12-9 weekend STM will be staying...but that's because some area's having nearly 6 times the amount of users its supposed to have.

Asuming of course that VM move 20Mb customers to DOCSIS 3. OK, no new information then, I thought you may have more information that may not be in the public domain. Thanks.

AmAtoL

23-03-2008, 23:37

I can assure you, STM times are going to change in some areas, if you want to know how good my info is you can go back and look how i've been right every time so far ;)

Again, this is only for area's that are really oversubscribed.

There have been numerous times where people have been shaped way before 4pm, that was because of the STM trials.

As for where i got the info, someone high up at VM =)

I've heard that they might be thinking of backheeling the top downloaders altogether to relieve stress on the system.

They might want to try backheeling all those that can't pay the damn bill first :mad:

Toto

24-03-2008, 07:22

What does "backheeling" mean?

ceedee

24-03-2008, 07:43

What does "backheeling" mean?

What you do to a football to pass it behind you?

:shrug:

Always wanted an excuse to use this: :redcard:
:)

AmAtoL

24-03-2008, 09:11

What does "backheeling" mean?

Eh ?

It means to get rid of unceremoniously, to do away with, and generally lose these "customers".

May or may not be correct but we'll just have to wait and see, something will have to happen to save the network as I can't see DOCSIS3 being the Holy Grail for VM.

Toto

24-03-2008, 09:33

OK, never heard of that expression before. I'm Welsh, A rugby fan. :)

So, VM actually getting rid of high users, now there's a PR disaster in the making. :)

piggy

24-03-2008, 13:09

OK, never heard of that expression before. I'm Welsh, A rugby fan. :)

So, VM actually getting rid of high users, now there's a PR disaster in the making. :)

imo it would a very good move downloading whores should be banned no isp needs/wants them the only problem is what is a acceptable figure!! (ill get my coat :shocked:)

Sirius

24-03-2008, 13:23

IMO it would a very good move downloading whores should be banned no ip needs/wants them the only problem is what is a acceptable figure!! (ill get my coat :shocked:)

So i take it that Virgin Media are wrong in your eye's then.
Coping fine

“We have seen a rise in traffic from things like iPlayer but we are in an excellent position in terms of bandwidth and we don’t have an issue with that type of traffic," the spokesperson said.

“Ultimately we provide an unlimited service and whatever data people choose to receive, we will cope with that demand.

“That is our position with regards to our unlimited packages.”

http://www.techradar.com/news/internet/virgin-confirm-iplayer-for-april-267152

And i take it you want me off the network then./

Mar 23, 2008 (Sun)
Mar 24, 2008 (Mon) 14.58 GB

Mar 16, 2008 (Sun)
Mar 22, 2008 (Sat) 121.73 GB

Mar 9, 2008 (Sun)
Mar 15, 2008 (Sat) 349.11 GB

Mar 2, 2008 (Sun)
Mar 8, 2008 (Sat) 214.04 GB

Feb 24, 2008 (Sun)
Mar 1, 2008 (Sat) 6.70 GB

Feb 17, 2008 (Sun)
Feb 23, 2008 (Sat) 163.50 GB

:LOL:

BTW

Most of that was HDtv epps that VM seem fit NOT to provide via there V+ HD box.

If VM decide to provide Linear HD channels then my bandwidth usage might reduce a bit. Until then i will have to get my HD fix via the usual locations :)

TraxData

24-03-2008, 14:26

So i take it that Virgin Media are wrong in your eye's then.

http://www.techradar.com/news/internet/virgin-confirm-iplayer-for-april-267152

And i take it you want me off the network then./

Mar 23, 2008 (Sun)
Mar 24, 2008 (Mon) 14.58 GB

Mar 16, 2008 (Sun)
Mar 22, 2008 (Sat) 121.73 GB

Mar 9, 2008 (Sun)
Mar 15, 2008 (Sat) 349.11 GB

Mar 2, 2008 (Sun)
Mar 8, 2008 (Sat) 214.04 GB

Feb 24, 2008 (Sun)
Mar 1, 2008 (Sat) 6.70 GB

Feb 17, 2008 (Sun)
Feb 23, 2008 (Sat) 163.50 GB

:LOL:

BTW

Most of that was HDtv epps that VM seem fit NOT to provide via there V+ HD box.

If VM decide to provide Linear HD channels then my bandwidth usage might reduce a bit. Until then i will have to get my HD fix via the usual locations :)

I best not show my usage, i had people on here moaning at me for it last time :D

AmAtoL

24-03-2008, 14:33

It is a tricky one indeed, for a start I don't think that unnamed source from the quoted atricle is in the real world. The VM network is in dire straits, speeds are abysmal for the most part, quality is even worse. Yet he says it can take even more...yeah right.
If it was up to me then yes you would be off the network Sirius, 1000 gig in a month, give or take, is taking the proverbial, and you probably aren't even in the top 3%.
That's a lot of HDTV content, more than anyone can reasonably watch, maybe that's just me though being out at work all day.
Still, you are paying your money and taking advantage of your right.
Tell me that people rapi, sorry, making full use of the bandwidth available aren't affecting my pings and packet loss and I will be happy.

TraxData

24-03-2008, 14:49

ceedee

24-03-2008, 14:49

Tell me that people rapi, sorry, making full use of the bandwidth available aren't affecting my pings and packet loss and I will be happy.

We're not affecting your pings and packet loss.
Well, not as much as over-selling the service in already congested areas anyway...

I often wondered how VM came up with that "3% of users are heavy downloaders" statistic until I realised that they were including all the broadband subscribers who weren't actually online at the time.
It's the only logical explanation for setting the cap^u^u^u, sorry I mean, *limits* so low!

Sirius

24-03-2008, 15:04

That's a lot of HDTV content, more than anyone can reasonably watch, maybe that's just me though being out at work all day.
Still, you are paying your money and taking advantage of your right.
Tell me that people rapi, sorry, making full use of the bandwidth available aren't affecting my pings and packet loss and I will be happy.

There are 5 people in my house. They all watch different things at different times of the day. A good HD TV ep runs in at 9 gig. Then there is streaming TV from 4Od and the BBC. Then Youtube and the likes, It all mounts up when there are 5 users using the connect. And before you get on your high horse the users are me, my wife, and 3 kids and the youngest of those is 19 years old.

I don't upload on torrents there far to insecure, i only use Newsgroups.

If VM decided to drop the unlimited then yes i would leave complete with my 2 TV drives with the full package and phone. There is always Beunlimited, BT, Sky

TraxData

24-03-2008, 15:08

There are 5 people in my house. They all watch different things at different times of the day. A good HD TV ep runs in at 9 gig. Then there is streaming TV from 4Od and the BBC. Then Youtube and the likes, It all mounts up when there are 5 users using the connect. And before you get on your high horse the users are my wife, and 3 kids and the youngest of those is 19 years old.

I don't upload on torrents there far to insecure, i only use Newsgroups.

If VM decided to drop the unlimited then yes i would leave complete with my 2 TV drives with the full package and phone. There is always Beunlimited, BT, Sky

Nah, a good HD tv ep runs in at 17gig (take caps from CTV for example, one lost episode is 14-15gig..sometimes 20)

Then there is HD movies (including legal services)....some people seem to think we're still in the age of 100mb being a large download...

Sirius

24-03-2008, 15:13

Nah, a good HD tv ep runs in at 17gig (take caps from CTV for example, one lost episode is 14-15gig..sometimes 20)

Then there is HD movies (including legal services)....some people seem to think we're still in the age of 100mb being a large download...

Indeed

I do the 9 gig ones due to hard drive space. Aria in Manchester give me discount now on the amount of hard drives i buy. :LOL:

piggy

24-03-2008, 16:29

So i take it that Virgin Media are wrong in your eye's then.

http://www.techradar.com/news/internet/virgin-confirm-iplayer-for-april-267152

And i take it you want me off the network then./

Mar 23, 2008 (Sun)
Mar 24, 2008 (Mon) 14.58 GB

Mar 16, 2008 (Sun)
Mar 22, 2008 (Sat) 121.73 GB

Mar 9, 2008 (Sun)
Mar 15, 2008 (Sat) 349.11 GB

Mar 2, 2008 (Sun)
Mar 8, 2008 (Sat) 214.04 GB

Feb 24, 2008 (Sun)
Mar 1, 2008 (Sat) 6.70 GB

Feb 17, 2008 (Sun)
Feb 23, 2008 (Sat) 163.50 GB

:LOL:

BTW

Most of that was HDtv epps that VM seem fit NOT to provide via there V+ HD box.

If VM decide to provide Linear HD channels then my bandwidth usage might reduce a bit. Until then i will have to get my HD fix via the usual locations :)

if i was running a buisness with limited bandwidth then yes i would kick you off,

i dont have any answers but the network is over-subscribed if the figures of the top 3% are true then i would kick those aswell but where do you stop??

you dont believe that article do you??

Sirius

24-03-2008, 16:40

if i was running a buisness with limited bandwidth then yes i would kick you off,

i dont have any answers but the network is over-subscribed if the figures of the top 3% are true then i would kick those aswell but where do you stop??

you dont believe that article do you??

Should i not believe it. VM are telling us they need to sell our private data to a spyware company so they can improve my surfing so maybe i should believe everything they say ?

They seem to able to deliver here.

Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:40:14 GMT

Test 1: 1024K took 441 ms = 2322 KB/sec, approx 19133 Kbps, 18.68 Mbps
Test 2: 1024K took 442 ms = 2316.7 KB/sec, approx 19090 Kbps, 18.64 Mbps
Test 3: 1024K took 417 ms = 2455.6 KB/sec, approx 20234 Kbps, 19.76 Mbps
Test 4: 2048K took 901 ms = 2273 KB/sec, approx 18730 Kbps, 18.29 Mbps

Overall Average Speed = approx 19297 Kbps, 18.84 Mbps

To repeat this test from the source server click here.

piggy

24-03-2008, 16:46

i know your speed is good .....1000gb a month it needs to be!

AmAtoL

24-03-2008, 17:04

Fair enough, 3 good answers
I'm not going to get on my high horse :)
It's just with all the increased services VM are offering/not offering and the limited bandwidth especially upload, I feel all this traffic is throttling me to the point of distraction. There are 3 of us using the net at night, and one son in particular can really bork my experience just by playing a Half Life mod. I don't know why exactly but he does even on the 20 meg.
I'm even considering getting my BT line reactivated just for gaming, heaven knows if it will be any better, but with summer hols coming up it calls for drastic measures.
If the other lad does any P2P it kills my connection stone dead, can't even do any browsing. I just think of that on a larger scale and think wtf is going on here.

Druchii

24-03-2008, 18:40

Mad Ad

24-03-2008, 19:14

No i think it might be TF2 :D

/me waves at Ama

I know how you all feel. I was throttled (STMed) on XL at about 4.30PM some weeks ago, support confirmed it. However I was running DU meter on the NIC connected to the CM which metered only 642MB in the whole 4-5 hour.

I was ****ed naturally, and hoped that it was a one off fault, however its slowly beginning to look like they started this new 'secret trial' back then, and I was just the first to notice.

I was tanning the download before 4pm that day, to get ready for management so it all makes sense now.

No matter, they can stick their triple play harshly managed phormerated rubbish where the sun doesnt shine, replacement line should be fixed tomorrow. Shame, because I dont want to leave, moving phones is a hassle, moving emails and webspace is a hassle, and ill miss the TVOD but they messed with my BB so this is what happens. :)

bonzoe

24-03-2008, 19:21

There's a lot of talk of "only for area's that are really oversubscribed". Well, if they are oversubscribed VM are getting in the Ã‚Â£Ã‚Â£Ã‚Â£Ã‚Â£s for that area so I hope that these are the areas to be upgraded FIRST.

Not that my area "appears" to be oversubcribed!

Mad Ad

24-03-2008, 19:33

No my area never has been, if i set up a source that i can get 2.5MB/s (XL max) from then thats what it delivers.

Infact I only upgraded to XL after xmas because they'd STMed the life out of my rock solid 4meg that id had for years.

popper

24-03-2008, 20:10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto
OK, never heard of that expression before. I'm Welsh, A rugby fan.
So, VM actually getting rid of high users, now there's a PR disaster in the making.
imo it would a very good move downloading whores should be banned no isp needs/wants them the only problem is what is a acceptable figure!! (ill get my coat :shocked:)

well it is my 2000th post so i thought i might as well make it a long informed one ;)

well you have obviously not thought this through in any reasonable way.

Toto is exactly right, a disaster waiting to happen, did you not see Virgin Media taking full advantage of the ASA ruling by currently advertising "fibre optic cable network" all over the show?

Virgin Media advertise we have the newest, fastest,best unlimited broadband fibre blitz ,then kick the top 3% or whatever because they cant take the download hit Hmmm.

so its your informed opinion that some users are taking full advantage of their payed for service, and in doing so are taking your bandwidth due to lack of capacity, your so called 'downloading whores'.

so it must be assumed that the capacity problem if any, cant be in the Virgin Media core backbone due to the old April 2nd 2007 announcement, i covered here.
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/10/33624637-virgin-media-announces-50mb-lines-next-page-10.html#post34476302
http://www.businesswire.com/portal/s...86&newsLang=en
"
...
Virgin Media provides high quality digital TV, Internet and telephone services to nearly 3 million subscribers throughout the UK.

In addition to supporting all of its own broadband customers, Virgin Media also leases capacity on its core network to several of the UK’s leading ISPs, so the Juniper Networks T-series will be supporting an expansive network capable of delivering Internet-based communications services to more
than 12 million UK homes (more than 50 percent of the total households in the UK), and 85 percent of UK businesses.

“Service reliability, throughput speed and scalable capacity are the main criteria that will enable a successful roll-out of next-generation network services in both the immediate future and in the long term,” said Rob Sim, Head of Network Architecture at Virgin Media.

“We wanted to put support for 40G in place now, and both the T640 and TX Matrix platforms from Juniper enable us to support 40G as soon as needed.

Also, as the capacity demands on our network grow, we can easily upgrade the T640 to TX Matrix as required, whilst maintaining both operational and service consistency without an operating system change.”
...
"

so the problem you might think, would be at the edge, and in Virgin Media's case thats the UBR cards,yes...

well guess what, the price of these cards/port price have been and are droping like a stone.

not only that, but they are getting far more up and down ports due to the Docsis 2.0b/pre3.0 push and i covered that here.
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/10/33624637-virgin-media-announces-50mb-lines-next-page-10.html#post34470723
http://www.lightreading.com/document...&page_number=1
"CMTS Downstream Prices PlummetDECEMBER 28, 2007
Timing is everything.

Just as cable operators prepare to test and launch Internet services with speedier downstream capabilities, the top three providers of cable modem termination system (CMTS) gear -- Cisco Systems Inc. (Nasdaq: CSCO - message board), Arris Group Inc. (Nasdaq: ARRS - message board), and Motorola Inc. (NYSE: MOT - message board) -- have developed, or are in the process of developing, new downstream-heavy modules that snap into their widely deployed CMTS chassis. Along with denser downstream footprints, these new cards are also having a profound effect on CMTS pricing.

CMTS downstream port prices are "dropping like a rock," says Patti Reali, an analyst with Gartner Inc. In the early going, much of that trend, she notes, is being driven by Cisco and its development of a special module/linecard. That card, dubbed the Shared Port Adapter (SPA), fits into Cisco's flagship CMTS, the uBR10012.

But the story doesn't start and end with Cisco. Although the CMTS market leader can already point to trials and deployments for its downstream-heavy module, Motorola is gathering steam with its entry, the TX32. Meanwhile, Arris, which is making a run at increased CMTS market share, tells Cable Digital News that it has a new, specialized CMTS card in the making.

While the minimum configuration for Docsis 3.0 calls for the bonding of at least four upstream and four downstream channels, most operators are expected to begin their migration to 3.0-based services by bonding downstream channels.
...
"
so..., if for every single users payments per month, Virgin Media are taking x% out for re-investment into the network,
then these drops in UBR card prices means they can infact buy far more cards for the same cash outlay, and yet get even more ports per card.

a win/win it might seem for everyone especially the users, IF VM are infact spending this same set aside re-investment cash for that purpose,yes?

however, we now hear that virgin Media PR have to find a way to pay yet another high profile US star actor advertising blitz
(mick missed that one for the front page news BTW) alongside the already payed for condescending Uma Thurman and iritating ruby wax adverts.

you have to wonder what they will have him say to try and sell you more VM product ;).

that not withstanding, its yet another outgoing that has to come out of your consumers monthy fees, will it perhaps be taken from the VM re-investment cash and interest?

http://www.product-reviews.net/2008/03/06/samuel-l-jackson-named-as-face-of-virgin-media/
"Samuel L. Jackson has been named as the new face of British cable TV company Virgin Media."
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/money/city/2008/02/29/virgin-media-pins-hopes-on-samuel-l-jackson-after-racking-up-heavy-losses-89520-20335371/
"Virgin Media is pinning hopes on Hollywood star Samuel L Jackson after racking up heavy losses at the end of last year.
The UK's second biggest pay TV operator has hired the Pulp Fiction star to plug its video-on-demand service."

OK,so to move on...
its a good job (some might say,or not...)the whole UK only have Virgin Media now as its (cable) supplyer, as it means
they own the whole Network end to end,and so any good choices they make are good all round, OC VM seem only good at making bad choices, but thats beside the point for now :)

would you like to be in the position the Canadian vendors now find themselves in here
http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Bell-Canada-Throttles-Wholesalers-Doesnt-Bother-To-Tell-Them-92915
Bell Canada Throttles Wholesalers, Doesn't Bother To Tell Them
09:30AM Monday Mar 24 2008 by Karl
"...Bell Canada is throttling traffic before it reaches wholesale partners. According to Teksavvy CEO Rocky Gaudrault..."
and here http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r20191279-Nexxia-throttling
how long before they are taken to arbitration or court i wonder?, because thats what your suposed to do when you arnt getting what you contract and pay for right!....

moving on....
given that the above virgin media re-investment, core network, and new and improved UBR Edge cards are infact still in place, and now vm have got rid of/lost one of the internal slackers, and replaced them with Andrew Barron as its managing director of strategy to help exploit its "natural advantages".
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/digitaltv/a91319/virgin-media-appoints-md-of-strategy.html?rss
he says
"Virgin Media has some important natural advantages that we are determined to exploit in order to grow our business and deliver a genuinely
differentiated proposition that meets consumers’ changing expectations," said Berkett. "Andrew’s experience will be invaluable in helping us meet this
challenge."

how might they do that?...., if your (OC you are) going to point out the P2p/torrent users are using (downloading whores/leaching,etc) all this external capacity, then its perfectly obvious to those people that have infact given this some real thought....

apparently you didnt give it any thought, and want to kick the cash paying customers that pay the company bills etc.

stop blaming the paying users...,they are paying into your re-investment fund continuesly month on month.

stop trying to compensate for this past lack of real long term system investment per head, by paying for yet another multi million ad blitz, and just use that money to buy far more of the friggin UBR cards and kit, fit them and re-seg....as you should have been doing all along.

these are just the tip of the iceberg OC, how might Andrew Barron (and associates), the new MD of strategy deal with this external bandwidth cost problem on the cheap, alongside the other investments already outlined, he must like that idea
as it makes him far more productive right?...

the most obvious first:
set aside a tiny amount of cash in comparison to the other outlays and pay some internal VM and external code developers to actually look at the freely available P2p/Torrent codebase and really help extend and improve it's effectivness with some real code contribution from the ISPs and do it NOW.

how, and what options are needed, thats easy...
1: tweak and extend its DHT code to make sure it does 'best effort' to keep the torrent swarm (in this order)inside the LAN,then the WAN, then the UBR segment, the ISP segment,the Internal ISP core,the fastest peered other ISPs,less fast peered,the national Co-location sites,
international...

it might need a little tweak here and there on the last parts, and you need to allow for pulling in and given out the less popular content etc, but overall its going to save a lot of external costs with just a small sweak of that one simple DHT code for virtually no cost but time of your
internal and exteranl coders, just do it.

2: my long favoured option, but it will take a little more effort on the ISPs and coders part, is pay for the coders to retrofit Multicast DHT and related code and protocols into the free P2p/Torrent java AZ codebase using, and adapting parts of the existing code and protocols (Bamboo,Mtunnel,all the old MBONE etc) or write your own, and release it under the same free licence as the AZ java codebase.

the biggy for Virgin Media with its 52% UK cable coverage, and the other ISPs it seems, is reactivating multicasting on all the existing internal routers and related kit, all the way to the end users.

you need to do this (re-activate) Multicast anyway for the new Docsis3 kit as its mandatory, but if you cant bring yourself to do that quickly (as a trial perhaps,sign me up) for the old IPv4 stacks and kit (you can though) then get your payed coders to add that Multicast tunneling capability iv been asking for directly into the java codebase for use by your extended Multicast P2p/Torrent DHT code, if direct Multicast isnt (currently if ever) available to the users or their ISP werever in the world that might be.

if your (post Mbone defeatest)coders say it cant be done, get yourself some new ones, and drag that old Mbone multicast CANDO thinking into the P2p age.

only after you have done 2 (because long term, its in everyones best interests, including the users) and 1 should you move on to
3: install and use the already existing torrent cacheing kit
"BitTorrent, Inc. has actively pursued commercial ventures with CacheLogic. CacheLogic is an ISP solution firm which seeks to lessen the bandwidth burden placed on networks by caching P2P traffic.

Caching servers, which are hosted by the ISP, maintains the most popular and most queried traffic. Instead of the BitTorrent client utilizing the ISP's external bandwidth to obtain the required file(s), traffic is contained between the cache server and the end user. In other words, the traffic is
maintained within the ISPs internal network, which is considerably cheaper than handling external traffic."

DONT just jump directly on 3: as it appears to be your simple quick fix answer...., really consider 1 and especially 2 please.

other bits, what goes for the P2p/torrent above also goes for the usenet (by far the bigger download user)put back the binary code caches and internal/directly peered (fater the better OC) news groups to include many of the most popular (you know which OC ;) ).

you might be thinking ,the ISPs cant do internal/fast direct peered P2p/Torrent/NG binary cacheing as they are then breaking some law!.

Not so, as they are covered directly by the EU E-Commerce Directive European law
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32000L0031:EN:NOT

Internet Service Providers (ISPs) are intermediaries. They are not, in law, responsible for what internet users do,
at least until this Phorm thing came along and they signed the contract.

OC it might be that the Phorm contracted ISPs covering 70% of the whole UK Broadband market, appear to infact be relinquishing their legal right to said intermediaries/E-Commerce Directive protection, now that they have infact signed comercial contracts with this 3rd party Phorm, to freely enter into 'a general obligation to monitor the network' but thats a whole new ball game and doesnt cancel out the above options to lessen or do away with throttling all together and improve everyones lot does it.

:angel:

Toto

24-03-2008, 20:43

@ popper

Bah, you beat me to 2000 AND there is no way I could bable on like that either. ;)

TraxData

24-03-2008, 20:47

piggy

24-03-2008, 20:47

@popper

nice long post, but meanwhile in the real world the network is stuffed!!

pay as you go will be here sooner rather than later and i do believe a 1000gb would be a tad more than Ã‚Â£37 a month

@traxdata

what profit?? if you factor in the loan repayments cable hasnt made a profit yet!!

TraxData

24-03-2008, 20:48

Indeed

I do the 9 gig ones due to hard drive space. Aria in Manchester give me discount now on the amount of hard drives i buy. :LOL:

I used to do the 9gig ones...i still do sometimes, depends what chan it has been capped off, anything off CBS is not worth it (quality is barely above SD imo). Fox isnt much better either.

I have too many hard drives, all fun, i forget where half of my files are :p:

Sirius

24-03-2008, 21:03

I used to do the 9gig ones...i still do sometimes, depends what Chan it has been capped off, anything off CBS is not worth it (quality is barely above SD IMO). Fox isnt much better either.

I have too many hard drives, all fun, i forget where half of my files are :p:

Well my next purchase will be 4 terabyte drives to replace the 500 gig ones. Will then move the 500 gig ones to a new server next to the existing one in the shed .:D:shocked:

---------- Post added at 21:03 ---------- Previous post was at 20:56 ----------

@popper

what profit?? if you factor in the loan repayments cable hasnt made a profit yet!!

Then maybe VM needs to start making people pay for there service instead of giving it away to everyone that says they are going to leave. I know one person who only pays 4.99 a month for 20 meg because they blagged a "i will leave" reduction.

Everyday you read on this forum how so and so got this reduction because they said they would leave, We all know its a blag just to get a reduction.

Virgin needs to make the blagger's pay the full price instead of playing to there lies.

So before you have a go at me who pays for his service, Start with the blaggers and cloner's.

AmAtoL

24-03-2008, 22:37

No i think it might be TF2 :D

/me waves at Ama

Lol, hey there MadAd, blooming long time no see :)
The lad has got TF2 and plays it a bit and also has Garrys Mod but his favourite one is the Specialists, dunno why but it is :dozey:
I've not played TF2 or TFC since 2005, I've been playing Battlefield 2 & 2142.
Any gaming is a trial atm as you may have gathered, not like the good old days when the C&W 56k could ping a nice 130 to Wireplay ;)

Take care Ad

Sorry OP off topic

flashpaul

24-03-2008, 23:30

@ Sirius

Out of interest how much better is the quality when you download a 10GB+ rip

I have a few 1.1GB 720p rips and they look amazing , are the larger rips really worth it ?

TraxData

24-03-2008, 23:35

@ Sirius

Out of interest how much better is the quality when you download a 10GB+ rip

I have a few 1.1GB 720p rips and they look amazing , are the larger rips really worth it ?

If you think those 1.1gb mkv rips look amazing (i think they look terrible btw, barely worth the upgrade from the 400mb xvids imo) then you'll lose the 9+gig rips!

popper

24-03-2008, 23:39

@popper

nice long post, but meanwhile in the real world the network is stuffed!!

oops: you missed out that 'informed' as in, real facts from the real world.

its clear when you said "i dont have any answers" and "but the network is over-subscribed" you dont know anything about this subject, but thats OK, as i gave you some answers and the reasons why directly from real facts

if you had read and understood my post, then you would have realised it was giving you answers for both.

you dont believe that article do you??
hmm, so you dont want to beleave this report eather, do you actually live in the real world!

that article too, made it pritty clear even for a non techy reader just how it intended to work in the real world.

pay as you go will be here sooner rather than later and i do believe a 1000gb would be a tad more than Ã‚Â£37 a month

sure, and it wont work as you expect it too, no one in their right mind would sign up for any primary high bandwidth use PAYG broadband , well apart from people with more money than sense in your world perhaps.

theres a reason the mobile PAYG 'Pay By The Mbit Download' didnt take off in this country and why your now seeing fixed monthly rate mobile data packages taking its place, theres no high market share in PBTMbD.

@traxdata

piggy said:what profit?? if you factor in the loan repayments cable hasnt made a profit yet!!
Doh, the profit Virgin Media are making by taking far more user subs for the given over subscribed UBRs, rather than the fewer subs they would be taking if it was only at designed capacity .

lets see if i can break my post down so even you can understand.

in the real world, people pay a price for a service and expect to get that payed for service as per contract.

you as an end user are taking the easy option and blaming the other users for not getting what you pay for, and your wrong.

businesses, such as the one in canada, are not going to blame the users for the throttling.

infact they are rightly so,blaming the supplyers they have contracted with to supply them an agreed and set bandwidth (give or take a small % over time)not a varying throttled connection...,they will take them to court or arbitration but they will get what they pay for.

why dont you take the same stance?, thats not the easy option though is it,far easyer to blame something or someone you cant control, right.

VM are using Ã‚Â£millions of your subscription cash to finance ineffective adverts both in the past and right now..., instead of using that cash to bulk up the re-investment cashpot to buy far more UBR cards and related kit while the price is really low , that time to buy is right now.

and finally, all the ISPs not just Virgin Media, complain about the Torrent and streaming video uptake.

but not one of them puts in their pocket and initiates a simple plan to help the torrent users, coders,network or even themselves by paying a few coders afew quid to extend the P2p/torrent codebase.

they refuse to re-activate (they go out of their way to turn it OFF, to make it clear to you)the existing Multicasting capabilitys in all their routers and related kit, and help code up a near realtime multicasting video streaming server.

there are plenty to choose from, VLC being to most popular end user Muticasting client/server and they and everyone would benefit ,not least the ISPs saving masses of bandwidth.

so spend a few quid helping the java AZ and the VLC projects and turning on existing as in for free multicasting, and everyone wins.

verses , spend a few million UKP on US actors adverts and .....,ohh we get a few more users to help over subscribe that new/old UBR....

ceedee

25-03-2008, 02:58

Tech Support now accept that the STM is broke...

From the virginmedia.support.broadband.cable newsgroup:
>>> "kxxxxxxxf" <kxxxxxxxf@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:uYQFj.27887$XI.4415@text.news.virginmedia.com ...
>>>> Virgin Media Technical Support - Kxxx Rxx wrote:
>>>>
>
> Hi,
>
> you are currently being STM'd now....good news...it should end shortly.
>

So, we can surmise from this that the STM was applied before the 4:00pm
time it is supposed to kick in, i.e at around 12:30pm today.

Is it new policy or the machinations not working properly?

thanx for the confirmation

>>>> "kxxxxxxxf" <kxxxxxxxf@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:uYQFj.27887$XI.4415@text.news.virginmedia.com ...
>>>>> Virgin Media Technical Support - Kxxx Rxx wrote:

Hi,

I don't know if this is policy or a glitch. We will feed this back to the
network guys to check the config etc.

--
Kind Regards
Kxxx Rxx
Virgin Media Technical Support
http://status2.virginmedia.com/

Magilla

25-03-2008, 12:25

if i was running a buisness with limited bandwidth then yes i would kick you off

If they start kicking people there will have to be big changes across the service with regard to billing and advertising.

The root problem here is the miss-selling of services by the providers themselves.

i dont have any answers but the network is over-subscribed if the figures of the top 3% are true then i would kick those aswell but where do you stop??

Cease adding new customers when you can't support the existing ones would seem to be a prudent step?

arcamalpha2004

25-03-2008, 12:55

If they start kicking people there will have to be big changes across the service with regard to billing and advertising.

The root problem here is the miss-selling of services by the providers themselves.

Cease adding new customers when you can't support the existing ones would seem to be a prudent step?

VM will not stop adding new customers due to the fact that they cannot give the full service they are being paid for because that would lose them money, and so what they do is vastly hype up the service to drag customers in then when something goes wrong they give the V sign, that is the first letter in VM see, what the M stands for is certainly not media, suggestions on a postcard to......

Web-Junkie

25-03-2008, 13:09

VM = Very Misleading, obviously!

AmAtoL

25-03-2008, 13:59

Then maybe VM needs to start making people pay for there service instead of giving it away to everyone that says they are going to leave. I know one person who only pays 4.99 a month for 20 meg because they blagged a "i will leave" reduction.

Everyday you read on this forum how so and so got this reduction because they said they would leave, We all know its a blag just to get a reduction.

Virgin needs to make the blagger's pay the full price instead of playing to there lies.

So before you have a go at me who pays for his service, Start with the blaggers and cloner's.

Exactly right, VM could/should be much more strict on who they sign up for their services. No credit checks are done, no mandatory DD payments scheme etc. people know that they can sign up for 20 meg and basically not pay anything until it has gone all round the houses to debt recovery then churn, only then will they pay a piffling amount. VM does not need these sort of customers on its books but won't do anything to address it due to the customer base figures. You wouldn't believe how much is spent on outsourced debt recovery agencies chasing up these wasters, and for what, for them to do it all over again in 3 months time.
Much stricter credit control is needed, but it will never happen.

Druchii

25-03-2008, 15:23

Exactly right, VM could/should be much more strict on who they sign up for their services. No credit checks are done, no mandatory DD payments scheme etc. people know that they can sign up for 20 meg and basically not pay anything until it has gone all round the houses to debt recovery then churn, only then will they pay a piffling amount. VM does not need these sort of customers on its books but won't do anything to address it due to the customer base figures. You wouldn't believe how much is spent on outsourced debt recovery agencies chasing up these wasters, and for what, for them to do it all over again in 3 months time.
Much stricter credit control is needed, but it will never happen.
That is incorrect, we were subject to a credit check for our account to be opened, then again, form our neighbourhood i'm not surprised...

AmAtoL

25-03-2008, 15:41

That is incorrect, we were subject to a credit check for our account to be opened, then again, form our neighbourhood i'm not surprised...

Well whatever...
Still hasn't discouraged the hundreds of thousands who can't pay or won't pay :mad:

piggy

25-03-2008, 16:07

oops: you missed out that 'informed' as in, real facts from the real world.

its clear when you said "i dont have any answers" and "but the network is over-subscribed" you dont know anything about this subject, but thats OK, as i gave you some answers and the reasons why directly from real facts

if you had read and understood my post, then you would have realised it was giving you answers for both.

hmm, so you dont want to beleave this report eather, do you actually live in the real world!

that article too, made it pritty clear even for a non techy reader just how it intended to work in the real world.

sure, and it wont work as you expect it too, no one in their right mind would sign up for any primary high bandwidth use PAYG broadband , well apart from people with more money than sense in your world perhaps.

theres a reason the mobile PAYG 'Pay By The Mbit Download' didnt take off in this country and why your now seeing fixed monthly rate mobile data packages taking its place, theres no high market share in PBTMbD.

Doh, the profit Virgin Media are making by taking far more user subs for the given over subscribed UBRs, rather than the fewer subs they would be taking if it was only at designed capacity .

lets see if i can break my post down so even you can understand.

in the real world, people pay a price for a service and expect to get that payed for service as per contract.

you as an end user are taking the easy option and blaming the other users for not getting what you pay for, and your wrong.

businesses, such as the one in canada, are not going to blame the users for the throttling.

infact they are rightly so,blaming the supplyers they have contracted with to supply them an agreed and set bandwidth (give or take a small % over time)not a varying throttled connection...,they will take them to court or arbitration but they will get what they pay for.

why dont you take the same stance?, thats not the easy option though is it,far easyer to blame something or someone you cant control, right.

VM are using Ã‚Â£millions of your subscription cash to finance ineffective adverts both in the past and right now..., instead of using that cash to bulk up the re-investment cashpot to buy far more UBR cards and related kit while the price is really low , that time to buy is right now.

and finally, all the ISPs not just Virgin Media, complain about the Torrent and streaming video uptake.

but not one of them puts in their pocket and initiates a simple plan to help the torrent users, coders,network or even themselves by paying a few coders afew quid to extend the P2p/torrent codebase.

they refuse to re-activate (they go out of their way to turn it OFF, to make it clear to you)the existing Multicasting capabilitys in all their routers and related kit, and help code up a near realtime multicasting video streaming server.

there are plenty to choose from, VLC being to most popular end user Muticasting client/server and they and everyone would benefit ,not least the ISPs saving masses of bandwidth.

so spend a few quid helping the java AZ and the VLC projects and turning on existing as in for free multicasting, and everyone wins.

verses , spend a few million UKP on US actors adverts and .....,ohh we get a few more users to help over subscribe that new/old UBR....

@popper
people do have different opinions, writing long posts dosnt always make yours right :dozey:

i fully understand what your getting at and also where the money should be spent but im talking of the real world and all isps oversubscribe its not right and i dont agree with it but that is the real world profit first customers second, the whole broadband market in the uk is a con with plenty of spin we have all seen the "upto" and "unlimited" deals they dont exsist!!

@sirius

im not having ago at you personally i have just stated my opinion anybody who downloads 100's of gigs a week i wouldnt want them on my network
i wouldnt knock the individuals its the system thats wrong there should be a plain english FUP at the start of the t&cs not buried somwhere in the middle

TraxData

25-03-2008, 16:11

i fully understand what your getting at and also where the money should be spent but im talking of the real world and all isps oversubscribe its not right and i dont agree with it but that is the real world profit first customers second, the whole broadband market in the uk is a con with plenty of spin we have all seen the "upto" and "unlimited" deals they dont exsist!!

It's a UK only thing, when in frace i get 100mbit symetric, truely unlimited.

Hell even the old 8mbit ADSL i had in france was really unlimited, download and upload as much as you like.

Let's not get me started on the tokyo 1gbit connection i used for a while ;)

@sirius

im not having ago at you personally i have just stated my opinion anybody who downloads 100's of gigs a week i wouldnt want them on my network
i wouldnt knock the individuals its the system thats wrong there should be a plain english FUP at the start of the t&cs not buried somwhere in the middle

100+gig/week is not alot of data at all in this day and age, so really you'd kick anyone off who enjoyed watching a few HD tv eps and movies a week? that makes no sense.

And you need to realise heavy users who download constantly dont affect the network all that much, its just a spin VM want you to believe.

Its the p2p users who are constantly uploading that drag the network to its knees.

Druchii

25-03-2008, 16:17

i fully understand what your getting at and also where the money should be spent but im talking of the real world and all isps oversubscribe its not right and i dont agree with it but that is the real world profit first customers second, the whole broadband market in the uk is a con with plenty of spin we have all seen the "upto" and "unlimited" deals they dont exsist!!

It's a UK only thing, when in frace i get 100mbit symetric, truely unlimited.

Hell even the old 8mbit ADSL i had in france was really unlimited, download and upload as much as you like.

Let's not get me started on the tokyo 1gbit connection i used for a while ;)

100+gig/week is not alot of data at all in this day and age, so really you'd kick anyone off who enjoyed watching a few HD tv eps and movies a week? that makes no sense.

And you need to realise heavy users who download constantly dont affect the network all that much, its just a spin VM want you to believe.

Its the p2p users who are constantly uploading that drag the network to its knees.
I dunno about 100Gb a week not being a lot mate, to me it's stupid amounts of data. In the past few weeks, i think 3 since it started coutning i've used about 35Gb. And i've been watching episodes of tv and all sorts pretty much none stop in spare time. How can i do this in 35Gb and you in, if i recall correctly, TB's?

TraxData

25-03-2008, 16:35

I dunno about 100Gb a week not being a lot mate, to me it's stupid amounts of data. In the past few weeks, i think 3 since it started coutning i've used about 35Gb. And i've been watching episodes of tv and all sorts pretty much none stop in spare time. How can i do this in 35Gb and you in, if i recall correctly, TB's?

1 TV EP 15GB (and i watch a few shows)(1080p h264, and before anyone starts, this is from a legal service)

1 1080p Movie weighs in at 15-25GB as well...

I dont download low quality stuff...100gb/week is nothing these days.

Druchii

25-03-2008, 17:01

1 TV EP 15GB (and i watch a few shows)(1080p h264, and before anyone starts, this is from a legal service)

1 1080p Movie weighs in at 15-25GB as well...

I dont download low quality stuff...100gb/week is nothing these days.
Oh, 1080p... Should've guessed.

Ah well, whatever, 720p is fine with me for now...

popper

25-03-2008, 18:55

Originally Posted by Sirius http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12/33630325-vm-admit-stm-hours-vary-without-page-5.html#post34513069)
Virgin needs to make the blagger's pay the full price instead of playing to there lies.

So before you have a go at me who pays for his service, Start with the blaggers and cloner's.

Exactly right, VM could/should be much more strict on who they sign up for their services.

No credit checks are done, no mandatory DD payments scheme etc.

people know that they can sign up for 20 meg and basically not pay anything until it has gone all round the houses to debt recovery then churn, only then will they pay a piffling amount.

VM does not need these sort of customers on its books but won't do anything to address it due to the customer base figures.

You wouldn't believe how much is spent on outsourced debt recovery agencies chasing up these wasters, and for what, for them to do it all over again in 3 months time.

Much stricter credit control is needed, but it will never happen.

Still hasn't discouraged the hundreds of thousands who can't pay or won't pay :mad:
sirius, you know full well its NTL etal that made the problem in the first place.
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34/33629187-vm-reneging-ex-ntl-competitive-discounts.html
Stuart makes the point very well
"Unforetunately, NTL were desperate to retain as many customers as possible. As such, they seemed to encourage retentions to keep customers at all costs. This has led less scrupulous agents to basically make up deals, just to keep the figures up.

Note: I don't know if they did encourage it, but they certainly didn't seem that active in discouraging it either"

AmAtoL,your getting angree over your misconception of how you think VM works, rather than how VM really works.

the No.1 thing you need to take onboard and retain is ,
Virgin Media (and ex-C&W/NTL before it at least)
charge one month PAYED IN ADVANCE OF services .

in other words, the service your using right now, was already payed for in advance by you last month,and this is all mandatory as you put it.

even though you, as a potential new customer, are always asked to pay the initial Ã‚Â£25 deposit, and for your first months services in advance, you can not officially sign up for any VirginMedia services without a credit check.

how exactly they justify a credit check when your paying in advance a 'pay before you go' as it were, is amazing.

you couldnt and cant even officially sign up to, (never mind get it activated), the Virgin Media broadband without a direct debit and your first payment taken.

if you as an active customer do not pay your bill that month, or even its just an accounts mess up and it shows as in default by mistake or inaction from a Ccare worker (yes, thats happens too), Virgin Media will and do auto disable your cable modem so you cant use it, so no 3 month anything from VM.

as for your point about the VM accounts outsourcing costs, yes your right but not for the reasons you might expect.

its known that Virgin Media accounts etc have infact contracted and payed 3rd party companys several hundred pounds per physical disconnection at the customers outside wall cable point.

notice thats not the street cab, but the persons actual home .

they did infact manage to disconnect the coax adaptor joining the external cable to the internal house cable and walk away to the van.

the only problem was that customer was infact 2.5 months payed up in advance :mad:.

now thats something to get mad about.

you might be thinking its a scam artist trying something at the the users house, not so....

yes you guessed it, that customer was me, and i (well lets just say i convinced him to get out of the van with the removed adaptor and ) had him call his Virgin Media accounts contact and make sure he had the right address.

they confirmed they has sent him to disconnect my address, but it was in error and i was indeed 2.5 months pay up in advance and they instructed him at my insistance to re-connect the remove coax adaptor.

it was he that informed me of the costs involved, and how they get payed for every disconection valid or not as long as its on the sheet, and even more, they can take 3 days to come back and re-connect an adaptor for you, and get payed again for the re-connection at the same price.

after he had gone, i followed up in several Virgin Media departments to get confirmation that his call was registered on their system and it was really official, IT WAS.

then we have your last point, Virgin Media selling the so called debt and your personal data to the DRA and CRA's, a very nice bit of cash flow there.

not to mention the fact Virgin Media and this so called debt are many times the fault of VM accounts policy, weather deliberate or incompetence, by continuing to bill for services after the customers have infact canceled their contract, hence the phantom debt being sold to the DRA's.

piggy

25-03-2008, 19:22

sirius, you know full well its NTL etal that made the problem in the first place.
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34/33629187-vm-reneging-ex-ntl-competitive-discounts.html
Stuart makes the point very well
"Unforetunately, NTL were desperate to retain as many customers as possible. As such, they seemed to encourage retentions to keep customers at all costs. This has led less scrupulous agents to basically make up deals, just to keep the figures up.

Note: I don't know if they did encourage it, but they certainly didn't seem that active in discouraging it either"

AmAtoL,your getting angree over your misconception of how you think VM works, rather than how VM really works.

the No.1 thing you need to take onboard and retain is ,
Virgin Media (and ex-C&W/NTL before it at least)
charge one month PAYED IN ADVANCE OF services .

in other words, the service your using right now, was already payed for in advance by you last month,and this is all mandatory as you put it.

even though you, as a potential new customer, are always asked to pay the initial Ã‚Â£25 deposit, and for your first months services in advance, you can not officially sign up for any VirginMedia services without a credit check.

how exactly they justify a credit check when your paying in advance a 'pay before you go' as it were, is amazing.

you couldnt and cant even officially sign up to, (never mind get it activated), the Virgin Media broadband without a direct debit and your first payment taken.

if you as an active customer do not pay your bill that month, or even its just an accounts mess up and it shows as in default by mistake or inaction from a Ccare worker (yes, thats happens too), Virgin Media will and do auto disable your cable modem so you cant use it, so no 3 month anything from VM.

as for your point about the VM accounts outsourcing costs, yes your right but not for the reasons you might expect.

its known that Virgin Media accounts etc have infact contracted and payed 3rd party companys several hundred pounds per physical disconnection at the customers outside wall cable point.

notice thats not the street cab, but the persons actual home .

they did infact manage to disconnect the coax adaptor joining the external cable to the internal house cable and walk away to the van.

the only problem was that customer was infact 2.5 months payed up in advance :mad:.

now thats something to get mad about.

you might be thinking its a scam artist trying something at the the users house, not so....

yes you guessed it, that customer was me, and i (well lets just say i convinced him to get out of the van with the removed adaptor and ) had him call his Virgin Media accounts contact and make sure he had the right address.

they confirmed they has sent him to disconnect my address, but it was in error and i was indeed 2.5 months pay up in advance and they instructed him at my insistance to re-connect the remove coax adaptor.

it was he that informed me of the costs involved, and how they get payed for every disconection valid or not as long as its on the sheet, and even more, they can take 3 days to come back and re-connect thay adaptor for you, and get payed again for the re-connection at the same price.

after he had gone, i followed up in several Virgin Media departments to get confirmation that his call was registered on their system and it was really official, IT WAS.

then we have your last point, Virgin Media selling the so called debt and your personal data to the DRA and CRA's, a very nice bit of cash flow there.

not to mention the fact Virgin Media and this so called debt are many times the fault of VM accounts policy, weather deliberate or incompetence, by continuing to bill for services after the customers have infact canceled their contract, hence the phantom debt being sold to the DRA's.

i agree with everything you say except the disconnect cost the lads in our area get Ã‚Â£15 a job and yes they do get it wrong and they can take several days to come back and rectify there mistake, being fair to the disconnect lads it is usually a mistake in the the paperwork from customer services

lostandconfused

25-03-2008, 20:32

AmAtoL

25-03-2008, 21:27

popper

25-03-2008, 21:47

i knew you would Lost ;) as you remember me posting the original.

the key facts are, its still payed in advance, no matter how you want to split it.

and VM are spending extra cash to 3rd partys to physically disconnect a customer.

incuring yet another cost for physical re-connection ,instead of the far simpler and zero cost electronic option available to them.

BTW, if anyones interested in following that canadian ISP being throttled theres another update confirming it.

http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Bell-Canada-Confirms-Throttling-92973
Bell Canada Confirms Throttling

lostandconfused

25-03-2008, 21:51

i knew you would Lost ;) as you remember me posting the original.
snip

sorry i couldnt help myself!;)

popper

25-03-2008, 22:16

I cba quoting any of your post popper but I think you also need to have a rethink on how VM works in the real world.

Thousands of people do not pay by direct debit and never will.
People may pay Ã‚Â£25 initially but then go ahead and not pay any more bills, until final reminders, DRA, then months have past.

I wasn't referring to physical disconnections at the household, but the hundreds of thousands of pounds paid out to DRA's before it gets to that stage.

I'm saying miss out those agencies and just wave goodbye to the persistent non payers.

I know cock ups can occur, and that modems can be turned off, it happened to me when we changed banks but the new one only took the DD for tv and phone and not BB.

Anyway got to try the connection for gaming now :)

well cant be arsed, is as good a reason as any ;), infact VM and many other business base their whole extra profits on that fact, CBA sending a DPA notice being the current topic elsewere.

im constantly re-evaluating many things as time passes, dont you ?

as for "Thousands of people do not pay by direct debit" thats a very small % of users on the VM broadband isnt it (currently something like 4+ million BB or more ) and of that thousands, only a very small % of that, have a problem paying on time sometimes.

after all VM's own rules, dont allow you to sign up to BB without it, people might choose later to change after the initial connection and DD but most dont as they dont want to incure the unlawful non DD charges (yep, theres another one).

sure, VM saying 'goodbye to the persistent non payers.' i can agree with upto a point.

however if people are paying enough not to be electronicly disconnected by the auto system already in place after the month, then VM or anyone else has no valid reason to complain.

enjoy the game :D

piggy

25-03-2008, 22:36

another good reason to physically disconnet people is stop them buying/obtaining equipment and then getting all services for free!!

TraxData

25-03-2008, 22:39

another good reason to physically disconnet people is stop them buying/obtaining equipment and then getting all services for free!!

And what if new tenants move in and want VM? they then have to go through the costs (vm, that is) of connecting them back up, its not worth it.

ceedee

26-03-2008, 14:01

Warning: briefly returning to the original thread topic
;)

Apparently the irregular and unpublished changes to the times that STM operates were isolated "trials" and the email from TS (see the first post) was just a mistake.
"Virgin Media Technical Support - Dxxx Lxxxxxx" <news-support@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message news:83rGj.28758$XI.19343@text.news.virginmedia.co m...
>
There were no changes to the STM over the bank holiday weekend, or any
weekend for that matter, it's not that flexible as to change the settings
for different days of the week. Any trials for STM will only be affecting
one or two areas, for instance prior to the 20Mbs rollout, the Preston area
was given it first as a trial. Another recent case where STM was applied at
the wrong time was found to be settings on the UBR, and once identified was
corrected

The next time that anyone finds that their connection speed has been drastically reduced -- as though you'd been STM'd, but outside of the 4-9pm peak period -- I'd encourage them to post a message to the TS newsgroup requesting they check your current status.
(It would be useful to include the first part of your postcode in the subject line.)

:angel:

brundles

26-03-2008, 14:05

Warning: briefly returning to the original thread topic
;)

Apparently the irregular and unpublished changes to the times that STM operates were isolated "trials" and the email from TS (see the first post) was just a mistake.

The next time that anyone finds that their connection speed has been drastically reduced -- as though you'd been STM'd, but outside of the 4-9pm peak period -- I'd encourage them to post a message to the TS newsgroup requesting they check your current status.
(It would be useful to include the first part of your postcode in the subject line.)

:angel:

Call me cynical if you like, but "trials" seems a rather handy way of saying "You'll be STM'd at some random time and it would be unreasonable for all of our support staff to know whether it's right or wrong because it is a trial".

TraxData

26-03-2008, 14:16

Warning: briefly returning to the original thread topic
;)

Apparently the irregular and unpublished changes to the times that STM operates were isolated "trials" and the email from TS (see the first post) was just a mistake.

The next time that anyone finds that their connection speed has been drastically reduced -- as though you'd been STM'd, but outside of the 4-9pm peak period -- I'd encourage them to post a message to the TS newsgroup requesting they check your current status.
(It would be useful to include the first part of your postcode in the subject line.)

:angel:

VM run different STM trials all the time, it wasnt a mistake, some area's are changing, i also think you need to remember they will lie through their teeth about things until it becomes too public (like they did with the first STM trials).

Infact, VM staff are not allowed to discuss about STM trials so it would seem pretty obvious that they'd just deny it ;)

ceedee

26-03-2008, 14:21

Call me cynical if you like, but "trials" seems a rather handy way of saying "You'll be STM'd at some random time and it would be unreasonable for all of our support staff to know whether it's right or wrong because it is a trial".

"You might think that.
But I really couldn't comment..."

:scratch:

Chrysalis

27-03-2008, 13:40

imo it would a very good move downloading whores should be banned no isp needs/wants them the only problem is what is a acceptable figure!! (ill get my coat :shocked:)

Sorry but I dont accept this treatment for heavy downloaders.

If an isp sells a product described as unlimited then they have to accept some people will use their connection heavily, if the isp doesnt want this then they should sell a limited broadband service only.

As for thinking if they dump the heavy users it will fix things it wont, proven by plusnet and some other isps the heaviest users are an easy scapegoat but are not to blame, sheer customer numbers is.

---------- Post added at 13:40 ---------- Previous post was at 13:35 ----------

Well my next purchase will be 4 terabyte drives to replace the 500 gig ones. Will then move the 500 gig ones to a new server next to the existing one in the shed .:D:shocked:

---------- Post added at 21:03 ---------- Previous post was at 20:56 ----------

Then maybe VM needs to start making people pay for there service instead of giving it away to everyone that says they are going to leave. I know one person who only pays 4.99 a month for 20 meg because they blagged a "i will leave" reduction.

Everyday you read on this forum how so and so got this reduction because they said they would leave, We all know its a blag just to get a reduction.

Virgin needs to make the blagger's pay the full price instead of playing to there lies.

So before you have a go at me who pays for his service, Start with the blaggers and cloner's.

I agree, the people VM should target first are cloners and people on discounts for non technical reasons. After that they should stop over subscribing areas, over subscription does not mean heavy downloaders it means over contention aka too many customers for the equipment. During peak hours heavy downloaders are likely only a minority of total traffic used.

nemesis01

27-03-2008, 14:13

mmm....well I don't agree heavy downloaders should be banned, aslong as they pay their bills each month as I do what's the problem? if they cause congestion then it's upto VM to update whatever they need to, to be able to cope with the traffic. personally, I don't pay Ã‚Â£37 a month or whatever it is to download a few GB a week, for instance I DL around 60GB of stuff this morning, why, because I can, and I pay to be able to do that. I don't do that regular, however my GN sub runs out in a few days and I just felt the need to take advantage. :)

if I want a shitty service where I could only DL a few gb a month I would get some rubbish ADSL sub for 50p a month or whatever it is these days.

TheNorm

27-03-2008, 14:31

moaningmags

27-03-2008, 18:09

So, they could advertise a 20mb 1GB per month service (for example). Anything over 1GB would be charged at a published rate.

Extortionate!!!! Hopefully you don't give them any ideas if they're peeking :-)

Zain

27-03-2008, 18:22

i'll be honest, i constantly download tv episodes etc in roughly about a month ive downloaded 60-70gb as i leave my laptop on 24/7 downloading and uploading...however, i do stop my downloads during STM for smooth browsing.

popper

27-03-2008, 19:49

It might be more fair (and transparent) to charge for both speed AND total downloaded per month.

So, they could advertise a 20mb 1GB per month service (for example). Anything over 1GB would be charged at a published rate.

it wouldnt work TN, i assume you typed 1 gigabyte in error?, as you get more than that on cr@ppy mobile broadband packages and even they are moving to the fix fee monthy model now as PBTMbD dosnt get you market share.

the reasons simple, once you reach the limit whatever that might be, your being asked to pay your provider so you can download that freely available not for profit data/content.

the web conduit provider makes a massive extra profit off free content, the original provider of the free content makes zero profit, that's wrong.

perhaps the free providers should take leaf out of this Phorm lessons, and also forbid PBTMbD charging for their content in a webpage notice?.

or in the case of the Original payed for content ,its even werse.

your being asked to pay twice, you pay the 'Original Payed For Content Provider' a fee, and again, your web conduit provider makes in some cases, even more profit than the Original PFCP.

No primary high data throughput wired PAYG PBTMbD ISPs (or any other kind of web conduit)can ever become a big market share.

your just killing the UK web growth and virtical markets if you try that old money grab with wide spread Pay As You Go Pay By The Mbit.

fix fee PAYG wireless might stand a reasonable chance though ,if you dont get greedy, and charge Ã‚Â£30+ a month for 512Kbit.

to remove the STM/throttling, ISPs need to think far better than that to make reasonable profits we can all live with, or loose your customer base to those that will.

Wimax is almost here, or here already in the case of west manchester with somerfield :shocked:,
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/communications/0,1000000085,39353041,00.htm

watch as they drop their prices to get market share and build out their new networks if all goes to plan.

you might even eventually get symmetrical wireless (same speed both up and down) for a reasonable price.

and you can be sure they wont limit you to 1 wireless BB modem card per household, like VM do with cable, they want to make as much profit as they can after all

TheNorm

27-03-2008, 20:09

...Wimax is almost here, or here already in the case of west manchester with somerfield...

Wimax looks very interesting - is this similar to The Cloud that my dad in Leicester has been telling me about?

I'm sure Wimax will be very wary of users like this:

... i leave my laptop on 24/7 downloading and uploading.......

To use an analogy, the VM broadband at the moment is a bit like the water supply - you pay a fixed fee, but then can use what you like. However, if too many people leave their taps running, the whole area suffers a drop in water pressure. Shouldn't VM be using the gas/electricity/telephone model, where you pay a fixed fee, and are charged for what you use?

...Extortionate!!!! Hopefully you don't give them any ideas if they're peeking :-)

I'm sure they have plenty of experienced and knowledgeable people working on this!

piggy

27-03-2008, 23:05

Stouffer

28-03-2008, 11:52

Yeah, that would work. But as has been said enough times, it's advertised as unlimited, which is the key point. The only reason we've stuck with VM is that fact alone.

And about the people on deals, I'm not surprised. We're on a half price one due to having to complain about something at least once a month. Not even petty things like only getting 17mb instead of the 20mb, but being over charged by Ã‚Â£30 on our bills, or being sent a letter from debt colectors even though we've paid them already.

They should sort their end out before they continue to **** off the people who use the service, be it heavy or light usage.

BenMcr

28-03-2008, 12:03

To use an analogy, the VM broadband at the moment is a bit like the water supply - you pay a fixed fee, but then can use what you like. However, if too many people leave their taps running, the whole area suffers a drop in water pressure. Shouldn't VM be using the gas/electricity/telephone model, where you pay a fixed fee, and are charged for what you use?

thats the way to go.

They were. At one point ntl was going to give everyone 10Mb and charge per useage. Even popped up in the internal staff handbooks, and training was given on how ntl were going to show people how much they had used etc.

Then everyone started focusing back on speed i.e. why did ntl only do up to 10Mb when others do up to 16Mb etc

Kymmy

28-03-2008, 13:25

And simply put if VM charged per usage then they'd lose well over half of thier clients to ADSL.

Instead of talking about what measures VM should put in place to prevent high bandwidth usage shouldn't VM instead be installing/upgrading the equipment to cope with the high bandwidth that attracts most of thier customers.

Kymmy

Hugh

28-03-2008, 13:27

And at the same time, offer discounts to people?

popper

28-03-2008, 14:53

as already pointed out, the cable modem UBR card prices are at an all time low, and infact, as an extra bonus, all the vendors are also supplying far more up and down ports on their current cards.

so its a win/win for everyone if Virgin Media were to put all their buying power to use right now.

---------- Post added at 14:53 ---------- Previous post was at 14:45 ----------

And at the same time, offer discounts to people?

sure, why not, if VM buy 100% more UBR ports and related kit at the all time low prices now,and so pay far less, or get even more for the same money.

and at the same time, gain 50% more new users with a discount of some sort on a select few deals, then its all good right?.

popper

29-03-2008, 03:44

well as i said, just how many new UBR ports and kit did that cost....

i just got a VM email in my box pointing to the new advert..."
Psssst! Who's that guy in our new TV ad?"

what can i say, its in the 1990s Amiga Toaster style wipes effects but no were near as good...:eeek::nono:

and to think, some artistic PR type got payed to produce that :rolleyes:

http://www.mixituptv.com/

popper

29-03-2008, 14:26

Wimax looks very interesting - is this similar to The Cloud that my dad in Leicester has been telling me about?

I'm sure Wimax will be very wary of users like this:

Yeah, in a fashion, theres two types, a fix mobile and the new mobile.

the average reported top speed is something like 70Mbit/s but just like cable Modems, you dont really want to run them at max to start with, allow growth and selling/leasing/renting more per household/account, unlike VM restricting you to only 1 for no good reason.

and being realisitic, they say 10Mbit/s is a good starting point, and that can be a symmetrical connection so its going to be a very good seller if they play and price it right.

you can add more base stations as the userbase grows so its vary much like the UBR model but without cables.

and apparently they allow Multicast ;).

remember im always thinking how might the provider make it better for me the customer, but being realistic i also realise they need to make it profitable or nothing will happen.

and VM can also do much of this if they chose to, buying some of the freed up analogue TV airwaves is the best long term option, but they could always rent/lease it off whoever buys it (such as sky,they might you know if their cleaver ;) )

and useing the old Wireless Mesh DOCSIS2 kit or look at making the providers an offer to make a Wireless mesh DOCSIS3 unit....

place these on the VM cable edge or even your users premeses and you have an instant new Wimax network buildout....

didnt pick the right spot to cover the trial and grow the network?, simple..., move your portable Wimax Docsis kit to another area and trial again, once the MESH gets to 50% usage, put in a few new fibres to the new area to take the load off the wireless path.

Wimax or anyone else dont need to be wary of anything, all it takes is a little longer term thinking and being realistic about what your customers are going to do.

throttling is a valid short term option, not the long term option to let you massively over sell you capacity and it never will be.

your average high bandwidth users doesnt really care were they get their content.

thats a given, so how might you stop them ?, thats your first mistake, dont...

use it to your advantage, take your UK high speed data centre or co-location site, and install real virtual server space ISCSI farm kit , and include as standard in your basic userbase package a serverside set space,say 10 gigbytes of space to match your users 10Mb/s connection.

they learn to use the that internal/high speed peered space remotely instead of maxing out the last mile 24/7.

how will you stop the majority of expensive external P2p/Torrent traffic,already covered that, but also you can go one step more, make a so called general purpose walled garden for your users to use....

yes i did just say an internal/peered restricted small version of the whole web...

but that wont work as you cant get all the content you want, you might be thinking....

but it will when you reach 52% + UK coverage such as VM do, heres why i said general purpose, just like my tweaked DHT torrent code idea, your walled garden is doing 'best effort' to keep as much of the content inside the internal/high speed peered network connections.

your users are likeing the fast remote serverside speeds to get and give that content to other internal users.

anything thats not on the internal users walled garden network, soon will be placed there by the users, as you dont restrict that above keeping that section flowing smooth at the highest data throughput.

a Win/Win for your ISP and your users if you dont get greedy and charge loads for the basic connection or any extra virtual UK serverside space a user might pay for above the base package.

its in effect,a mini easten gigabit network, but only for your customers use ,and later your high speed peering other ISPs.

To use an analogy, the VM broadband at the moment is a bit like the water supply - you pay a fixed fee, but then can use what you like. However, if too many people leave their taps running, the whole area suffers a drop in water pressure. Shouldn't VM be using the gas/electricity/telephone model, where you pay a fixed fee, and are charged for what you use?

well, they own the pipes/wires but in effect, not the content another party makes and feeds that conduit just like the interweb;)

they also do the calculations and set the price to in effect give you a fix fee per week/month/quarter/year.

if they get that wrong , they say sorry and put the price up, get slaged off for making massive profits for their shareholders and not feeding that profit back into the system or end users pockets, just like VM/BT/etc.... :)

however, what it seems like your proposing, is infact just like the 1970s, although theres plenty of fual to feed the conduit, your going to go on strike and cut people off if you dont get your pay rise.

the devils in the details as it were.

I'm sure they have plenty of experienced and knowledgeable people working on this!

apparently not, or at least they are not being listened too and the required actions being openly talked about to see the pitfalls and then taken.

its all about removing the STM/throttling and making a reasonable profit we can all live with, or it should be for real UK long term growth .

OF1975

29-03-2008, 14:28

To use an analogy, the VM broadband at the moment is a bit like the water supply - you pay a fixed fee, but then can use what you like. However, if too many people leave their taps running, the whole area suffers a drop in water pressure. Shouldn't VM be using the gas/electricity/telephone model, where you pay a fixed fee, and are charged for what you use?

thats the way to go.

I have no problem with that then as long as virgin media drop the fixed fee part down to a reasonable level. VM prices are already uncompetitive compared to other providers.

TraxData

29-03-2008, 15:04

I have no problem with that then as long as virgin media drop the fixed fee part down to a reasonable level. VM prices are already uncompetitive compared to other providers.

I'm getting sick of repeating this but no, they are not.

Please rememeber to counter in line rental costs on top of what ADSL providers are providing, you'll see there is only a few quid difference.

OF1975

29-03-2008, 15:28

Ã‚Â£37 for 20megabit and Ã‚Â£11 or thereabouts for phone and you are saying that aint expensive compared to other providers?

TraxData

29-03-2008, 15:32

Ã‚Â£37 for 20megabit and Ã‚Â£11 or thereabouts for phone and you are saying that aint expensive compared to other providers?

-rolls eyes-

Ã‚Â£11 Line Rental + Ã‚Â£14.99 (for a good enough provider that actual has decent bandwith)

Ã‚Â£25.99/Month, i'd rather pay Ã‚Â£10 more and get an unlimited and stable service...you need to factor in the fact most ADSL packages have 40gb/month limits...even sky have a FUP (which is 200gb/month)...i can do ALOT more than that on my cable connection...

Your paying a premium price for a high speed stable connection which isnt affected by distance, if you like more than 2.5km from an exchange you wouldnt be having this conversation.

P.S Also, XL is Ã‚Â£20/month if taken with the phone package.

OF1975

29-03-2008, 15:44

-rolls eyes-
{snip}
P.S Also, XL is Ã‚Â£20/month if taken with the phone package.

Depending on what virgin do regarding Phorm I may need to give them a call as I am paying Ã‚Â£37/month.

ceedee

29-03-2008, 15:59

Depending on what virgin do regarding Phorm I may need to give them a call as I am paying Ã‚Â£37/month.

If you find an ADSL ISP that's offering an unlimited connection (hell, even at <8Mb) without throttling of 'heavy' users for Ã‚Â£26 (or Ã‚Â£37 including BT's monthly "ADSL tax"), please make sure you post it.

I got bored searching...

Sirius

29-03-2008, 16:03

If you find an ADSL ISP that's offering an unlimited connection (hell, even at <8Mb) without throttling of 'heavy' users for Ã‚Â£26 (or Ã‚Â£37 including BT's monthly "ADSL tax"), please make sure you post it.

I got bored searching...

Bt for the line Ã‚Â£11.00 i think

Be unlimited for broadband Ã‚Â£18.00 a month. :)

That's who i will be jumping to as soon as i receive the letter of intent to sell my data to a spyware company.

Sky will provide my TV.

BenMcr

30-03-2008, 12:33

Bt for the line Ã‚Â£11.00 i think

Be unlimited for broadband Ã‚Â£18.00 a month. :)

That's who i will be jumping to as soon as i receive the letter of intent to sell my data to a spyware company.

Sky will provide my TV.

Ah but will you get anywhere near their advertised speed. Im with be* and get 10Mb for my Ã‚Â£18 (even if I plug it in the test socket) :(

Would much rather be with Virgin as it would be Ã‚Â£2 cheaper!

Sirius

30-03-2008, 12:42

Ah but will you get anywhere near their advertised speed. Im with be* and get 10Mb for my Ã‚Â£18 (even if I plug it in the test socket) :(

Would much rather be with Virgin as it would be Ã‚Â£2 cheaper!

If they bring in this spyware system then i for one will never allow VirginMedia anywhere near my PC. I dont care what speed i get as long as my private data is safely away from PHORM/121Media

My choice will then be

Tv SKY

Phone BT

Broadband BE or any NONE Phorm/121 media ISP

Phorm/121media are never going to be using my private data as long as i have a choice of who provides my broadband

I live 1.5km from the BT exchange BTW

ceedee

30-03-2008, 13:35

If they bring in this spyware system then i for one will never allow VirginMedia anywhere near my PC. I dont care what speed i get as long as my private data is safely away from PHORM/121Media

Agreed.
(Tho' I prefer to call it "clickstream wiretapping" myself.)

It appears BT are upgrading my exchange to 21CN 'Wholesale Broadband Connect' in August so there's a good chance I'll have a better choice of fast, secure ISPs with a light-touch on STM.

Shin Gouki

30-03-2008, 16:42

They've STM'd me again today bang on 16:00.

All i've been doing is browsing the net.

*******

TheNorm

30-03-2008, 16:48

...All i've been doing is browsing the net....

Maybe your MAC address has been cloned?

Someone posted a solution that involved a call to customer services.

deed02392

30-03-2008, 19:02

OMFG popper, you're going to need to cancel your VM subscription just to afford the keyboards you must be going through right now.

What a heated debate! My opinion has and always will be that STM is OK so long as it is clearly advertised so that we as customers can work around it, and let grandad check his emails once a century.

The service IS advertised as unlimited (downloads) and therefore it must be unlimited... which it is. However, this whole 'up to' speed bullcrap is where a line must be drawn. It's not fair to say that a service is up to a certain speed, when some users in the heavily oversubscribed areas do not get any reasonable amount close to the advertised 'up to' speed. The midlands are a good example of this, with almost daily reports of 'manchester down/slow again?' blah blah.

As popper has already iterated, the VM networks NEED updated in these areas, and it's quite hilariously unbelievable that they are spending YET MORE money on advertising, and they don't seem to be realising that their customers are disappearing due to the anger many are experiencing and not receiving close to their advertised speeds.

With ADSL ever-improving, and Be broadband getting more and more coverage as we speak, it only helps to compel current VM customers to switch providers. VM must wake up and smell the coffee, and begin to reinvest their profits from the massively oversubscribed areas, and allow more of their customers to actually receive a fair speed in relation to what they were advertised.

With the equipment currently at an all-time low, it's hard to believe that they would not do this... although, VM is great at surprising us.

popper

30-03-2008, 22:21

LOL, i just like to look at all the options available to try and be fair ;)

you think this is a lot of typing , my lad puts me to shame with his skills, now he does though loads in a year, he's gone through 3 so far this year.

the new rinkle in the VM saga looks to finally make users speak up come tomorrow when they all read the 3 strikes alongside the STM and Phorm.

BTW wheres yet another set of options for users but that takes more effort and you are going to need a large collective.

my interests include all forms of wireless tech, and while the UK users doesnt really try that hard, other countrys have some very good Meshed community wireless networks, so you could collect up your local mates etc and make your very own mini co-operative Wireless WAN for all of you to use.

or even go the whole hog and buy a cheap point to multi point wireless microwave/WiMax setup directly from your nearest Co-Location site and do away with the current UK ISP connection altogether.

deed02392

30-03-2008, 22:37

Sorry, I don't quite follow. You mean to say create between me and my neighbours our own WAN? Where would be the Internet entry point :?

Thanks :)

homealone

30-03-2008, 22:56

I have not noticed any different behaviour, stm_wise from my connection, lately, but people still seeming to have cloned modems must be a worry???

Druchii

30-03-2008, 22:57

Sorry, I don't quite follow. You mean to say create between me and my neighbours our own WAN? Where would be the Internet entry point :?

Thanks :)
He means Wide Area Netowkr, however, everyone should have their own internet connection, and in effect, you could use everyones available bandwidth.

So, if 5 people have 16Mb from Be, and 2 have 10Mb from VM, you get to use (5 * 16) + (10 * 2) of bandwidth for your internet connection. Which is... 100Mbps.

kryogenik

30-03-2008, 23:02

I have not noticed any different behaviour, stm_wise from my connection, lately

Cheers.
To continue on topic, I found I was STM'd only minutes after 4pm suggesting the STM had kicked in earlier than it should have.
In the NG's this is being acknowledged by TS but there's nothing come to light just yet other than the possibility of 'secret' trials.

deed02392

30-03-2008, 23:35

He means Wide Area Netowkr, however, everyone should have their own internet connection, and in effect, you could use everyones available bandwidth.

So, if 5 people have 16Mb from Be, and 2 have 10Mb from VM, you get to use (5 * 16) + (10 * 2) of bandwidth for your internet connection. Which is... 100Mbps.

Sorry, I understood that much, but I thought he meant to simply forget the internet and just have a big LAN, which I now understand is a WAN, which is not the same as the internet. Sorry about that.

Y'know, I've dreamed many times of such a condition, yet the sad fact is no one near me would ever do something of the sort, as they are not technically minded enough to understand what this would incur.

One day ;'(

---------- Post added at 23:35 ---------- Previous post was at 23:02 ----------

To follow up, does anyone know exactly how one would simeltaneously take advantage of multiple internet connections. I.e. how would I download from more than one internet connection? I cannot seem to find a download manager which could do this, for exmaple if i had two wireless connections within my PC, how would I download with both my home internet and my neighbours internet connection?

Berealwith

30-03-2008, 23:44

Not a quiet man ......... but I try to be...but STM is done at all hours now and no matter what we do its virgins right to do it. I have had a ticket for 6 months waiting for an answer, I am on 20mb the good times I have had and now the bad. I have done more phone calls than I care to mention (I am not a pest just going through what anybody who gets frustrated that they are being sold a product and not getting what it said when you bought it) I have done test after test till I was blue in the face. I have learnt the system tried every which way you can and I have still not got anyway near back to how the 20mb connection was in the early few months I bought it. I have listened to the people who want caps on high bandwidth users...I have to ask them would you pay for 4 4mb connections for all the people in your house or just one 20mb on a router for the of the household then get capped at prime hours i.e., 2mb shared for internet browsing for 4 people....It stinks!!!!!!!!!!!! I now pay very little for it (due to the constant complaining I do) all I want is my 20mb back.........and as I know the ubr updating which is what I am waiting for........................and the big clue was what was ADSL Virgin like .....crap I didn’t know anyone who had it when cable was an option, so what did virgin bring to the table when it took over cable ? nothing it was crap before and it is now......now I hear its due to launch its own 7 day rewind TV...and still no updates on my UBR........Rubbish and yet more Rubbish........time to go fast it does not give two hoot about you just a 12 month contract firm........that is all Virgin is, work it out I speak the truth !!! Banter over and out

christopherw

31-03-2008, 03:39

Sorry, I understood that much, but I thought he meant to simply forget the internet and just have a big LAN, which I now understand is a WAN, which is not the same as the internet. Sorry about that.

Y'know, I've dreamed many times of such a condition, yet the sad fact is no one near me would ever do something of the sort, as they are not technically minded enough to understand what this would incur.

One day ;'(

---------- Post added at 23:35 ---------- Previous post was at 23:02 ----------

To follow up, does anyone know exactly how one would simeltaneously take advantage of multiple internet connections. I.e. how would I download from more than one internet connection? I cannot seem to find a download manager which could do this, for exmaple if i had two wireless connections within my PC, how would I download with both my home internet and my neighbours internet connection?

Bonding connections together (or load-balancing) is a technically complex and potentially expensive process.

You can do it the low-budget way, by running a Smoothwall router which takes inputs from all the various connections to effectively act as a proxy server, but it's still a bit of a 'faux' connection bonding technique - what the router will most likely do is assign one particular path for each connection made from your machine (and keep it assigned for the return path) - so if you were using P2P, all your traffic would go over one connection, if you were gaming, it would choose another connection etc... Otherwise it can cause real problems. Example: if you're seeding on a private tracker, and the tracker is seeing information updates for your user ID hash coming from two distinct IP addresses... You'd most likely get banned for trying to cheat the tracker, even though you're seeding legitimately.

Likewise, many games rely on UDP streams, which need one contiguous connection to run over - you can't split the packets over several connections and just expect it to work, because it horribly breaks networking specs.

It is doable, but just not in the true sense of 'bonding' - the only *real* bonding solutions are done over DSL, aren't even officially supported by BT because they're too problematic, and are prohibitively expensive to implement and run. Example: Andrews & Arnold offer a bonding service, it costs a shitload, you need (EXPENSIVE) Cisco kit installed on both your end and the exchange end, and it turns each DSL line into, effectively, a channel - the dedicated hardware at either end multiplex the data. The lines have to be running perfectly, at the same speeds, and if one line has a problem, everything falls over.

Oh, and thinking more low-scale, you can't have more than one residential cable connection installed at any one premises due to limitations with the billing system (apparently)... So if you wanted to install a line for you and a line for the kids, you'd have to get an ntl:telewest business cable installation for your second line (Ã‚Â£40 a month but no STM and a 20Mb uplift coming in the next few months).

deed02392

31-03-2008, 11:15

Nothing similar to what Druchii said then, whereby one effectively gains access to the internet at 100Mbps speeds?

|Kippa|

31-03-2008, 12:49

Just realised that I am getting STM at 11am this morning (monday). :( It is definetly STM. What exactly is the formal STM policy now?

Hugh

31-03-2008, 12:52

If you are getting STM'ed, your upload speeds will also be affected (as opposed to being on an oversubscribed UB).

Post a speedtest.

|Kippa|

31-03-2008, 13:04

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/03/2.png (http://www.speedtest.net)

It was a solid 20mbit a few hours ago, now it has gone to the above speed. If it were an oversubscribed UB I would expect fluctuations in the download rate, there are no real deviations from the mean average of 4815 kb/s.

ceedee

31-03-2008, 13:32

That certainly looks like STM to me.
Have you reported it via the TS newsgroup to confirm?
(I'd recommend not bothering to do it via the phone lines as you'll just be fed mis-truths that contradict the VM website.)

What part of the country are you in? (Just the first part of your postcode?)
I'm trying to build-up a picture of which areas are currently being trialled with 'irregular' STM hours and limits.

Wossi

31-03-2008, 22:05

I don't think Virgin have changed their clocks yet :( I'm now down to 1mb download, started a download at just gone 9pm and about 5 minutes ago went to check how it is doing and noticed the speed drop.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/03/1.png (http://www.speedtest.net)

Not happy at all considering I wait till gone 9pm before I download anything.

Which is the best newsgroup to post in about this?

deed02392

31-03-2008, 22:13

Coding now...
Coolyou scripteur accessing the internal database...
Please wait...

TheBottomLiner

31-03-2008, 22:21

Virgin media stole from me on Sunday afternoon.

ceedee

31-03-2008, 23:23

Which is the best newsgroup to post in about this?

VM's Tech Support group is 'virginmedia.support.broadband.cable' on news.virginmedia.com or text.news.virginmedia.com but they're only around from 8am until 10pm.

Chrysalis

01-04-2008, 14:11

Ã‚Â£37 for 20megabit and Ã‚Â£11 or thereabouts for phone and you are saying that aint expensive compared to other providers?

1 - adsl is variable, mrs white may get 16mbit but mr black 2 miles away will only get 3mbit, cable meanwhile everyone gets synch speed equal to what they purchased.
2 - adsl in particular the cheapest products excluding sky can have very heavy shaping/throttling certianly a lot worse than VM.
3 - at least phone on VM isnt required for BB whilst on adsl it is so it is a factor.

BenMcr

01-04-2008, 14:29

3 - at least phone on VM isnt required for BB whilst on adsl it is so it is a factor.

Even though there is the ongoing issue of why apparently you cant compare VM phone + BB price with BT + ADSL provider price (which always makes VM look more expensive)

hokkers999

01-04-2008, 17:37

1 - adsl is variable, mrs white may get 16mbit but mr black 2 miles away will only get 3mbit, cable meanwhile everyone gets synch speed equal to what they purchased.
2 - adsl in particular the cheapest products excluding sky can have very heavy shaping/throttling certianly a lot worse than VM.
3 - at least phone on VM isnt required for BB whilst on adsl it is so it is a factor.

Number 1 is REALLY funny. did you miss the UPTO part of the advertising. It is absolutely untrue that everyone gets the speed they have purchased. VM internet is as variable as anyone else's.

Chrysalis

01-04-2008, 18:39

I am speaking as someone who is on adsl and has used cable in the past, how many people complaining of cable been poor value have actually used adsl or just assuming the grass is greener on the other side?

Cable can slow down due to congestion and STM.
Adsl can slow down due to congestion, shaping/throttling, slow synch speed, and BTs bras profiling system it is technically a worse product.

hokkers999 are you claiming that not everyone synchs at the speed they purchase on cable?

When I was on ntl I was in a bad student area it was very congested so believe me I know cable can perform badly but what I do know is I was able to download fast zooming along at 10mbit 3-5amish whilst on adsl my line maxes out at around 5.5mbit throughput meaning I can never get above 5.5mbit because the synch limits it.

Now upto 8mbit for Ã‚Â£15 may sound super duper but the reality is at that price the product is more constrained and limited than what you get on cable, the few isps that perform well such as zen have caps. The very few isps that are fast and have no caps such as ukonline and BE will require you to be in a LLU area but these are not the norm what mainstream adsl isps such as tiscali and BT provide.

So I repeat if you buy 20mbit cable your modem will be synched at 20mbit and it is probable that at some point during the day (most likely 4am) that you can download at that speed whilst on adsl for millions of people the up to speed is not obtainable. (25% of lines capable of full 8meg synch only)