View Full Version : Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
Haven't seen this posted anywhere else... Forgive me if it has...
From the story posted yesterday, here (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/article/377/virgin-media-signs-targeted-ad-deal).
What do you make of this and would you be opting out, by opting out you are telling Virgin Media, you do not want your surfing habits tracked and this information given to a third party?
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There have been Updates since the beginning of this thread:-
Post 77:- http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34491957-post77.html
Post 102:- http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34492122-post102.html
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FAQ:-
Who should I complain to about this if this is something I do not agree with?
The first port of call should be to complain to Virgin Media directly, state that you are not happy about your data being tracked and sold to a third party even if your identity is protected or not.
Secondly, there is a Data Protection concern regarding how the data is collected and the fact customers have automatically been opted in, regulation usually requires that customers should be given the option to Opt in.
If you are concerned and feel you need to complain to The Information Commissioner's Office - http://www.ico.gov.uk/ You can ring them on 01625 545 745.
When will Virgin Media Implement this system with Phorm?
Virgin Media have simply stated that they have not decided yet what they are doing or what options are there for the customers. The bottom line is, they need to be fully consulting with the customer and we will be making sure that they provide relevant information to the customer and what options will be available to them.
Is there anything I can download to prevent this 'Intrusion' i.e stopping the data analysis being collected by my ISP and passed on to the likes of Phorm?
Yes there is, its called Tor and can be downloaded Free from http://www.torproject.org/. Please make sure you read the documentation before you decide to download and use it. Please note that use of this software is at your own risk.
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Mikey845
18-02-2008, 17:10
I hate ads relevant or not:mad:, I do not like the idea of having my surfing habits tracked to provide me with a direct ad "service".:erm: I've already contacted VM to find out how I can opt out. Does privacy mean bugger all to anyone?
Haven't seen this posted anywhere else... Forgive me if it has...
From the story posted yesterday, here (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/article/377/virgin-media-signs-targeted-ad-deal).
What do you make of this and would you be opting out, by opting out you are telling Virgin Media, you do not want your surfing habbits tracked and this information given to a third party?
I will definitely want to opt out .
dilli-theclaw
18-02-2008, 17:20
No I don't think its a good idea.
Haven't seen this posted anywhere else... Forgive me if it has...
From the story posted yesterday, here (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/article/377/virgin-media-signs-targeted-ad-deal).
What do you make of this and would you be opting out, by opting out you are telling Virgin Media, you do not want your surfing habbits tracked and this information given to a third party?
Is there any information on this and how to opt out.
I have asked VM today - awaiting a response, coming soon. :p:
I have asked VM today - awaiting a response, coming soon. :p:
Thanks Mick
PeteTheMusicGuy
18-02-2008, 17:27
it's a very bad idea
Well, I don't have anything to hide, and as I shop online for a lot of goods and services. This could be a good thing, but it might not be.
If I suspect though that the cookies are taking to much information, I can make some basic changes in my browser (see sig picture) that should block them.
xspeedyx
18-02-2008, 17:33
I dont want my info on web habits to be sent to companies bad idea VM boo
Well, I don't have anything to hide, and as I shop online for a lot of goods and services. This could be a good thing, but it might not be.
If I suspect though that the cookies are taking to much information, I can make some basic changes in my browser (see sig picture) that should block them.
It's yet another of Virgins greed decisions. I for one do not want it and WILL be opting out. Unfortunately i don't think Virgin will release the information on how to opt out if it means they lose money.
Does it mean I will get my VM services cheaper?No I think not so the answer would no.
if they pay me for the info then maybe .
Not only will be opting out but i'd probably cancel my account with VM.
Its one thing to have VM knowing your surfing habits but its entirely another thing to pass the details to another 3rd party that is completely unaccountable and unmonitorable (if such a word exists). Its not about having anything to hide about a particular site that people view as most people would have nothing to fear, but data mining (the process by which anonymous bits of data are matched together using filters and sequences). Given an IP as a tracker, and a list of URLs it would be quite easy to build a big profile up and match the data with real people. And any rogue employee at Phorm can do it with the data access can do it.
MovedGoalPosts
18-02-2008, 18:15
It's one thing visiting a specific website and they track your habits about your specific visit. It's quite another being tracked across the internet. I beleive that is called spyware :(
I dont want my info on web habits to be sent to companies bad idea VM boo
Totally agree with you there dl!
What was is I saw in a thread a few days ago about internet privacy??
Although, having said that, I got FF secured as tight as I can make it, in the past 3 years, I have never seen ANY adds or popups at all thanks to ff & the extensions!
You can bet your life I will be checking my cookies a number of times a day to make sure no such rubbish is stored on my computer.
I actually thought that it was illegal to track internet usage & to serve up ads, weather or not they are relevant?
When VM do this, I will be straight on the phone to them and they will have ANOTHER unhappy chappy on their line giving them what for!
EDIT:
If I want to check something out, I google it and then browse through the results, I have never once clicked an ad or anything that has popped up, I dont care how damn relevant it is, if I want to buy any product, I will go to a reputable (re)seller, I dont go flagrantly clicking links just because it has something that MIGHT interest me!
Well, I don't have anything to hide, and as I shop online for a lot of goods and services. This could be a good thing, but it might not be.
If I suspect though that the cookies are taking to much information, I can make some basic changes in my browser (see sig picture) that should block them.
Why on earth would they need to use cookies? They can probably obtain this information from either their DNS servers or (more likely) track you using the UBRs.
If that's the case, your choice of browser will be irrelevant.
Also, if you think blocking popups/ads will help, comcast have, I believe, been doing a lot of work in html rewriting, so they may just be able to embed the ad in your page regardless (as comcast did).
I'll be opting out asap.
I can't believe that with all the data privacy laws and such that VM can get away with this.
If the police etc were collecting data on a suspect, possibly linked to criminal activity, wouldn't they need a warrant to monitor their web traffic? How is it different, just because it is 'advertising'? It's still snooping.
Why on earth would they need to use cookies? They can probably obtain this information from either their DNS servers or (more likely) track you using the UBRs.
If that's the case, your choice of browser will be irrelevant.
Also, if you think blocking popups/ads will help, comcast have, I believe, been doing a lot of work in html rewriting, so they may just be able to embed the ad in your page regardless (as comcast did).
BUT surely if you have cookies turned off in your browser, then they cant track, or have i got it wrong (again)?
Be interesting to see if the DPA applies. Mr Angry would probably know this, but I think the Data Protection Act would apply if any personally identifiable data is passed to the other company from Virgin (I don't know if this ID number they are planning to use would be counted as personal data, as it would be tied indirectly to you).
For the record, if I used Virgin for broadband, I would either be expecting some sort of compensation for this data I am helpfully providing them, or cancel my account.
---------- Post added at 18:29 ---------- Previous post was at 18:27 ----------
BUT surely if you have cookies turned off in your browser, then they cant track, or have i got it wrong (again)?
They don't need cookies. Even if the UBRs can't log who is downloading what, technically it would be relatively easy to install equipment that does. They could bring back the proxies and use them to do this, for instance.
Well from what i have seen here so far they will have to allow me 1 of the following.
Opt out
Disconnect
VIRGIN what will it be ?
Apparently you can switch it on and off at will
http://www.phorm.com/
How it works:
*Ntl gives phorm a random number and the web page you are looking
*Phorm gives NTl the relevant ad together with the number
*NTl pops the ads on your screen, they know your IP as it is associated with the random number returned by Phorm
http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19#isp
http://webwise.com/ NOTE that Virgin Media are missing from that website
cookster
18-02-2008, 18:35
Apparently you can switch it on and off at will
http://www.phorm.com/
How it works:
*Ntl gives phorm a random number and the web page you are looking
*Phorm gives NTl the relevant ad together with the number
*NTl pops the ads on your screen, they know your IP as it is associated with the random number returned by Phorm
I'll be opting out then!!!
http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19#isp
Ahh, so they are stealing advertising revenue from sites, such as, say, this one.
Ahh, so they are stealing advertising revenue from sites, such as, say, this one.
Thats Virgin Media for you.
Boy i bet this thread grows pretty dam fast
Apparently you can switch it on and off at will
http://www.phorm.com/
How it works:
*Ntl gives phorm a random number and the web page you are looking
*Phorm gives NTl the relevant ad together with the number
*NTl pops the ads on your screen, they know your IP as it is associated with the random number returned by Phorm
From what I've just read there, it isn't so clear
With OIX and Webwise, consumers are in control: they can switch relevance 'off' or 'on' at any time at Webwise.com. There's no small print and no catches: it's completely up to the consumer.
To me that reads as if you can choose relevant ads or irrelevant ones.
Have I got the wrong end of the stick?
[url]http://webwise.com/ NOTE that Virgin Media are missing from that website
It is here ;)
http://www.phorm.com/isp_partners/
MovedGoalPosts
18-02-2008, 18:39
Why should I have to opt out. I should have to opt in :mad:
It is here ;)
http://www.phorm.com/isp_partners/
but thats not the site for turning off there spyware
Lets face it. This is another shafting from Virgin
http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19#isp
http://webwise.com/ NOTE that Virgin Media are missing from that website
Thanks for that link, I have just had a quick browse through it, and time & time again, the 1 word that they like to use is "PRIVACY"
How in gods name can they serve RELEVANT ads to joe Bloggs and say that they dont store browsing habits? how on earth do they do it then if they dont store these details, I mean, if they dont store details, how they supposed to give the user relevant ads?
I shall be opting out, can see absolutely no reason to want this rubbish!
Did I miss something - dont data protection laws mean you have to opt in to sharing your data, not out ?
MovedGoalPosts
18-02-2008, 18:50
VM's Terms & Conditions:
Section G, clause 3
We may also, subject to your consent:
1. use your personal information for the purposes of marketing our products and services to you; and
2. use your personal information for the purposes of marketing the products and services of other Virgin companies (e.g. Virgin Atlantic) to you,
and we may disclose your personal information to other Virgin companies and our sub-contractors and agents for these marketing purposes.
I see nothing in there about disclosure of personal details to third parties, other than the Virgin Group. I see nothing in there about doing so without my consent. As far as I am concerned my internet use habits represent my personal details, especially if I'm visiting secure sites such as personal banking.
And from the Privacy Policy
Disclosing your information
<snip>
We will not pass on your personal information to third parties except in accordance with this policy and our Terms and Conditions or where we are required by law to disclose that information.
Looks pretty clear to me that VM would be in breach of their own consumer contracts. But then we know how they like to run roughshod over them and change at will.
Looks like my adblocker will be working overtime then.
Why dont they (VM) just go full hog & "install" a VM rep inside your home, sat right next to you at your pc with a notebook & pen?
Its basically the same thing, whatever next from the 2 bit pile of donkey dung that they call a "BUSINESS"??
VM's Terms & Conditions:
I see nothing in there about disclosure of personal details to third parties, other than the Virgin Group. I see nothing in there about doing so without my consent. As far as I am concerned my internet use habits represent my personal details, especially if I'm visiting secure sites such as personal banking.
And from the Privacy Policy
Looks pretty clear to me that VM would be in breach of their own consumer contracts. But then we know how they like to run roughshod over them and change at will.
They can update those whenever and however they want though?
VM's Terms & Conditions:
<snip>
Looks pretty clear to me that VM would be in breach of their own consumer contracts. But then we know how they like to run roughshod over them and change at will.
As you say, if the lawyers think it's necessary, they'll just change the T&Cs to fit.
I have a theory.
There are a group of numpty's that travel from company to company with the sole intention of destroying it. At the moment i thinks its Virgins turn to have the numpty's working for them in the "What a good idea department"
Delta Whiskey
18-02-2008, 19:07
I don't see any on-page/pop-up/pop-under ads, Firefox & AdBlock Plus are your friends.
I got an ad blocking program on a disc that used to block all ads weather they were Embedded or pop up, if VM go ahead with this fool of a scheme i will just install it again
I got an ad blocking program on a disc that used to block all ads weather they were Embedded or pop up, if VM go ahead with this fool of a scheme i will just install it again
I have been using adblock for a good year or so and it works fine for me. My problem here is the fact that it looks like VM are going to ride rough shod over the customers privacy. VM no doubt will change the contract to suit them so they can give your private information to this company that they have signed up with..
MovedGoalPosts
18-02-2008, 19:25
Ad block pop up blocker things aren't the answer though. You might not see the ad, but it is still there. The real concern is the system of generating the ad, which has somehow been monitoring your personal browsing habits. That is big brother territory. It's that monitoring that has to be prevented, not the ad itself.
By contrast, google adsense and other systems generate content relative to the page that is being read. Yes some may find those ads annoying, but they haven't intruded on private browsing habits to do so. All they know is what the website is displaying.
Ad block pop up blocker things aren't the answer though. You might not see the ad, but it is still there. The real concern is the system of generating the ad, which has somehow been monitoring your personal browsing habits. That is big brother territory. It's that monitoring that has to be prevented, not the ad itself.
By contrast, google adsense and other systems generate content relative to the page that is being read. Yes some may find those ads annoying, but they haven't intruded on private browsing habits to do so. All they know is what the website is displaying.
Rob
I fully agree i just dont like adds fullstop m8.
Sirpingalot
18-02-2008, 20:08
it's an invasion of privacy and therefore a breach of the law..?
Clearly six people who have voted 'No' so far are happy to have their privacy intruded upon. They have voted no but haven't included their reasons to why they wouldn't mind.
This is like allowing a stranger to read a paper at the same time as you. This like saying you wouldn't bat an eyelid if someone stared into your house through your windows.
How strange - but then again we do live in a strange world.
How in gods name can they serve RELEVANT ads to joe Bloggs and say that they dont store browsing habits? how on earth do they do it then if they dont store these details, I mean, if they dont store details, how they supposed to give the user relevant ads?
there is store and there is "store", the data will be recieved, processed to generate an ad, then deleted. therefore it would only be stored for a short amount of time.
haven't voted yet, but, how is this any different to any other contextual based advertising such as google adsense?
This is awful and indigitive of the big brother state we are becomming. :mad:
I would opt out/cancel if I were still with VM but how long will it take for the other isp's to cash in?
It's a bit naive to believe that your browsing habits are private. Surfing leaves an electronic footprint; ads or no ads.
Schemes like this are designed to cash in on the data that exists. You may avoid targeted ads if you opt out; but opting out to preserve privacy is like closing your eyes to make the big bad wolf go away.
MovedGoalPosts
18-02-2008, 22:51
I know that if I visit site A Site A will collect some data on my browsing and use of that site. If I visit site B, the same will happen. If I return to site A, that site remembers me, and may offer me some information based on my last visit.
What I so not expect is that having visited site V, I find that site V continues to track my browsing of both visits to site V, but also lets site X know that I'm visiting site A & B, so that site X can tell site C what ad to display when I go there. That isn't privacy in any form whatsoever.
For a long while VM, or at least the old NTL Ts& Cs or AUP said they didn't track what what it's users were doing. When did that dissappear and why wasn't I told as to me that is a very significant change in what they, my ISP can do.
This is absolutely absurd, how can they be allowed to pass on your details to a 3rd party without your consent? surely this breaks the law under the data protection act?
Web-Junkie
18-02-2008, 23:08
God this is as bad as going down your local shopping centre and having leaflets thrust in your face every 5 steps that you didn't ask for!
As far as I'm aware it's ME that decides what to buy and where to shop not some ad company trying to force unsolicited 'virtual leaflets' in my face!
God this is as bad as going down your local shopping centre and having leaflets thrust in your face every 5 steps that you didn't ask for!
As far as I'm aware it's ME that decides what to buy and where to shop not some ad company trying to force unsolicited 'virtual leaflets' in my face!
:tu: :tu: :tu:
More here (http://www.thetelecom.co.uk/20080216/bt-virgin-talktalk-sign-up-to-phorms-ad-platform), here (http://news.zdnet.co.uk/internet/0,1000000097,39292867,00.htm), here (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b961adc0-daf9-11dc-9fdd-0000779fd2ac.html) and here (http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/14022008/323/phorm-exclusive-ad-platform-deals-bt-talktalk-virgin-media-update.html)
Phorm’s platform connects the Internet Service Providers with advertisers and Web sites, allowing online ads to be targeted according to a user’s anonymous browsing trends.
Phorm’s platform remembers the subjects a user has searched for and links this information to a user profile. The actual users and their Internet numbers remain anonymous.
The system tracks recent sites visited by the user and any keywords they have entered to search engines to identify their interests, but replaces their identifying details with a random number that cannot be traced back.
“We cannot know who you are or where you’ve been,” said Kent Ertugrul, chief executive.
Phorm (LSE: PHRX.L - news) 's technology will provide the ISPs with a new online advertising platform, the Open Internet Exchange, which will enable targeted advertising based on the search and browsing habits of the service providers customers, although the system anonymises the ISP data thereby safeguarding online privacy by protecting the identity of the consumers.
And from Virgin's own privacy policy (http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/legal/oncable/privacypolicy.html)
Disclosing your information
Here's when we may provide information about you:
To employees and agents of Virgin Media to deal with any accounts, products and services provided to you by Virgin Media now or in the future.
With your agreement, to Virgin Media group companies and other Virgin companies (e.g. Virgin Atlantic), whose products and services may be of interest to you.
To search the files of a credit reference agency, which will keep a record of that search, when you apply for service. Additionally, details of how you conduct your account may also be disclosed to the agency. This information may be used by other organisations in assessing applications from you and members of your household.
We may use aggregate information and statistics for the purposes of monitoring web site usage in order to help us develop the web site and our service and may provide such aggregate information to third parties for example content partners and advertisers. These statistics will not include information that can be used to identify any individual for example, '10,000 people clicked on an advertisement yesterday'. We will not pass on your personal information to third parties except in accordance with this policy and our Terms and Conditions or where we are required by law to disclose that information.
But the thing is, they say they "store" all the sites you visit & the searches, HOW LONG do they keep the data to make up this "profile"??
For instance, I will come on here, catch up on the new posts & threads, then I will probably close my browser for a bit, remember I need to check something on ebay, then close again, later on I'm back on here catching up, follow any interesting links like news stories & the like, then back here again.
Will they track ALL of this, or just the current internet session, and when the browser is closed, so is their "profile"?
The system tracks recent sites visited by the user and any keywords they have entered to search engines to identify their interests, but replaces their identifying details with a random number that cannot be traced back.
So they DO have indentifying information about us at first, BUT what if there is a "computer error" or a "bug" in some of their software, or as someone mentioned earlier about the change of a "dodgy" worker that can access such details? And we ALL know that if something gets deleted, there is a good chance it can be recovered again!
If I wanted people watching what I do online, I'd link up a massive video screen wall in the middle of the town centre so they could watch!
Any sort of an update on how to opt-out of this rubbish?
Whats the betting their website crashes cos of too many people opting out at once :D :D
So, this is different to Google AdSense ?
So, this is different to Google AdSense ?
Adsense works by checking the text on the page being displayed (this is why you frequently get ads on this site that have nothing to do with Virgin Media, Cable or even the Internet). There is no personally identifyable data retrieved or sent to adsense.
This system works by tracking (and presumably keeping a record of) your browsing habits. This is the main problem I have with it.
Also, one other thing. How would it cope with public internet access terminals (such as those in Cyber Cafes)? You could go in one, and find that thanks to the viewing habits of those who used the terminal before you, their targetted advertising system sends you ads for hardcore porn, online pharmacies and nazi memorabilia.
If I wanted people watching what I do online, I'd link up a massive video screen wall in the middle of the town centre so they could watch!
Somebody already decided it would be a good idea to take your picture umpteen times when you're in the town centre. Coupled with our spending habits and online activity, we're owned already.
Internet privacy is an illusion :disturbd:
Adsense works by checking the text on the page being displayed (this is why you frequently get ads on this site that have nothing to do with Virgin Media, Cable or even the Internet). There is no personally identifyable data retrieved or sent to adsense.
This system works by tracking (and presumably keeping a record of) your browsing habits. This is the main problem I have with it.
Which brings me back to my question: how long will they keep this data for?
To build a sucessful profile of someone's browsing habits could take a long time, especially for occasional users.
More here (http://www.thetelecom.co.uk/20080216/bt-virgin-talktalk-sign-up-to-phorms-ad-platform), here (http://news.zdnet.co.uk/internet/0,1000000097,39292867,00.htm), here (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b961adc0-daf9-11dc-9fdd-0000779fd2ac.html) and here (http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/14022008/323/phorm-exclusive-ad-platform-deals-bt-talktalk-virgin-media-update.html)
Taken from that third link:
Phorm, an Aim-listed advertising technology company, has struck agreements with BT, Carphone Warehouse’s TalkTalk broadband business and Virgin Media, which account for about 70 per cent of the UK broadband market, to use its online advertising platform.
This is extremely worrying imo. Seventy percent of the UK's BB subscribers are affected, and 90% of the people that voted here object. I'm not with any of the 'big three' at present but I'd consider cancelling my subscription over this if I was. Let's hope the general populace opt out en masse and send the message to ISPs that this stuff is not acceptable.
So, this is different to Google AdSense ?
Yes it is - It's a lot different to that - It's been explained already that ads served on sites which use Google Adsense are served based on content already on the webpage.
The ads served by this new system will involve intrusive spying on what sites web users visit and this information being passed about willy nilly, just so a quick buck can be made.
It's quite unacceptable this and that the bottom line is that this is just like a basic Spyware process, but on a more massive scale.
However, bizarre as it may seem - according to the poll so far, seven people think its okay... Though I bet they would kick up a scream if we all camped outside their house for the day and peered through their windows, but I could be guessing wrong after all, they wouldn't mind it, seeing as they wouldn't mind this.
Shame its a private poll, would be interesting to see the few that have stated they dont mind, see if a "profile" can be created of these people by checking up on previous posts & threads, and then make assumptions based on what was found, bet they wouldnt be so happy about that! :angel: ;) :)
Adsense works by checking the text on the page being displayed (this is why you frequently get ads on this site that have nothing to do with Virgin Media, Cable or even the Internet). There is no personally identifyable data retrieved or sent to adsense.
there is no personally identifyable data sent to phorm either. both google and phorm can tell what sites you visit (cableforum's ad blocks will have an id, google record how many times people visit those ads so they both record).
from what i can tell, all phorm is doing is what google are doing now, but increasing the capturing area. they aren't going to insert ads randomly, it'll just be like googles ads, the web site sticks some code in the html and phorm sort the ads out.
there is no personally identifyable data sent to phorm either. both google and phorm can tell what sites you visit (cableforum's ad blocks will have an id, google record how many times people visit those ads so they both record).
from what i can tell, all phorm is doing is what google are doing now, but increasing the capturing area. they aren't going to insert ads randomly, it'll just be like googles ads, the web site sticks some code in the html and phorm sort the ads out.
But with Googe doing such, I dont get to see ads at all, this is the way I want it to stay!
When your browsing the net, well for me anyway, i wouldnt appreciate having ads all over the page, ads also take up space on the page, so the page loads slower too, and as I'm not the only one, I dont want bloody ads on the pages I browse.
Mostly when I use any search (like google or Wikipedia) its just general things I am interested in, like if I watch a film on TV and I like it, I will google or wiki it to find out all the info, I dont want ads diplayed, just the info I need.
It's funny that when these things come around peoples first response is they don't have anything to hide. The point is you shouldn't have to even state that. It's irrelevant. If the postman was to open your letters in order to work out which junk mail to add to your mail you wouldn't be stating your innocence. The first problem I have here if this gets implemented is working out which ISP to move to.
there is no personally identifyable data sent to phorm either. both google and phorm can tell what sites you visit (cableforum's ad blocks will have an id, google record how many times people visit those ads so they both record).
from what i can tell, all phorm is doing is what google are doing now, but increasing the capturing area. they aren't going to insert ads randomly, it'll just be like googles ads, the web site sticks some code in the html and phorm sort the ads out.
Actually, wrong. Google know the numbers of people clicking through, but don't get any personally identifyable number for each user (beyond their IP which would get transmitted whatever system was in use). Google's system can also be blocked by various ad blockers, which would prevent google recieving any data.
The phorm system relies on a random number which, for their tracking to work would have to be stored somewhere, with records of what that users has browsed (I know the site doesn't state this, but it's the only way I can see that such a system would target the ads). The ISP would store the random number, as well as personal details (such as CM Mac address and even account details). Someone with a modicum of hacking skills (or even someone who found dodgy employees in both companies) could obtain access to both these databases.
Yes, you have the opt out, but you only have their word that they are not still storing the data, even if you don't get the ads.
Would you still feel the same way if you found out that (say) the Post Office developed a technology that would enable them to read your letters without opening them, store that data and use it to target junk mail?
But with Googe doing such, I dont get to see ads at all, this is the way I want it to stay!
When your browsing the net, well for me anyway, i wouldnt appreciate having ads all over the page, ads also take up space on the page, so the page loads slower too, and as I'm not the only one, I dont want bloody ads on the pages I browse.
Mostly when I use any search (like google or Wikipedia) its just general things I am interested in, like if I watch a film on TV and I like it, I will google or wiki it to find out all the info, I dont want ads diplayed, just the info I need.
did you read what i said?
from what i can tell, its another ad serving network just with a different way of making the targeted ads. dont want to see them? add the domains to whatever ad blocker you use just like you do with google ads. they aren't magical ads that aren't blockable :rolleyes:
did you read what i said?
from what i can tell, its another ad serving network just with a different way of making the targeted ads. dont want to see them? add the domains to whatever ad blocker you use just like you do with google ads. they aren't magical ads that aren't blockable :rolleyes:
But like was said earlier, you might not get these ads on your webpages, but the fact is they are STILL colleting this information, as it is done through the ISP's side.
Something just hit me, with all the news of this tracking & ads, what's it going to do for the privacy bit thats going on with how the govenment wants ISP's to look at all packets being sent & recieved to TRY to prevent piracy, makes me shudder to think what's going to be next...
did you read what i said?
from what i can tell, its another ad serving network just with a different way of making the targeted ads. dont want to see them? add the domains to whatever ad blocker you use just like you do with google ads. they aren't magical ads that aren't blockable :rolleyes:
You are missing the issue here - Your web surfing, all sites you ever visit, get tracked and this information passed on to a third party by your own ISP regardless of any 'Spyware' blocking software you have active and sitting in your systray. I don't think people are actually worried about the advert being shown process, we can all block an ad if we wanted to, but its how the whole thing is being done, before that ad is being served that is quite ludicrous.
And further to Mick's point (also repeating my own from above): While you can opt out of this advertising system, you have to trust they are not recording your browsing habits. If you block a Google ad, there is no way on earth Google will be able to track you through that ad. Yes, their is some evidence that they store any searches you make against your IP, and store gmail indefinately, but you do have the option not to use Google for searching, and to use email services other than gmail.
In essence, you can block Google's tracking relatively easily, whatever form it takes. You cannot actually block phorm from tracking you. You can opt out, and hope they don't track you, but you cannot be entirely sure, and even if you did find out you were being tracked against your wishes, you would need evidence and potentially a lot of money to take action against them.
georgepomone
19-02-2008, 02:17
Hi All,
if they post ads based on my surfing habits they will be really worth seeing.
George;)
Mick Fisher
19-02-2008, 04:59
Somebody already decided it would be a good idea to take your picture umpteen times when you're in the town centre. Coupled with our spending habits and online activity, we're owned already.
Internet privacy is an illusion :disturbd:
Speak for yourself. I haven't rolled over yet and never will.
I assume that both VM and Phorm will make money on the ads we click on that have been pushed on us by Phorm?
If this is the case, do what I do and don't give them an incentive to push these things on us. Make it uneconomical for them to continue this 'service' by not clicking on any pop-up or embedded ads. As soon as the click-throughs and hence the revenue streams dry up they'll have to reconsider.
I'll opt out, but I also have a personal policy of NEVER clicking on-screen ads. If I want something, I'll find it myself.
I'm still heavily against my browsing habits being tracked by a 3rd party and will be contacting VM as soon as more details become available.
I'm not bothered by it.
People seem to be missing one valid point though. If it means people will be served more relevent ads, its means more chance that they will click them. Which means more money for the site that you are visiting. How long would this forum stay online for if everyone used ad blocking software?
melevittfl
19-02-2008, 12:12
The phorm system relies on a random number which, for their tracking to work would have to be stored somewhere, with records of what that users has browsed (I know the site doesn't state this, but it's the only way I can see that such a system would target the ads). The ISP would store the random number, as well as personal details (such as CM Mac address and even account details). Someone with a modicum of hacking skills (or even someone who found dodgy employees in both companies) could obtain access to both these databases.
Actually, it's worse than that. In 2006 AOL accidently released data on what their customers search for over a three month period. They assigned each customer a random number to hid their identity.
However, just by looking at all the searches that, say 2343453 did in a week, it was possible to determine people's personal information in many cases.
For example, I might visit the website for my local town, then my bank, then a website that uses my username as part of the URL. Now they know where I live, what bank I use and at least one alias. A quick google search might find other places where my alias is used along with my real name, etc.
If you want to read about what happened with AOL, there's a good article here: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/09/technology/08cnd-aol.html
So, there doesn't need to be any collusion between both companies. The data provides enough information for people to discover identities.
---------- Post added at 12:12 ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 ----------
I'm not bothered by it.
Not bothered by loosing your privacy?
Care to post how much you earn and where you live?
MovedGoalPosts
19-02-2008, 12:25
Yes websites do rely on advertising. Before Google Adsense, this site was totally reliant on donations and the goodwill of the team at that time to pay for the server costs. es people find ads annoying and a balance needs to be struck so they are visible but not obtrusive. Those who opt out by use of ad blockers fair enough, but it's like the dimminishing returns TV advertisers are seeinng. One day the quality of your user experience will drop if the income doesn't pay the outgoings.
Adsense and similar systems can at most only know what the website owner knows about their visitor, i.e. which pages / web content on that site the visitor has seen. Ads are at most targeted to the webspace being viewed, rather than the user.
This proposed phorn method of serving ads is so much more invasive of the user's privacy than previous methods. It is clearly big brother technology. That somehow my webbrowsing habits are being tracked "annonymously" but they aren't annonymous since somehow my identity is allocated a random numer (a database allocation must control that which somehow must identify me so it isn't anonymous), makes it vulnerable. In turn, somehow the website's thaht serve up this system of ads, will be able to link me to the random number. Wouldn't take that much before the phisher type scammers work out how to use this random number against me.
I wonder what OFCOM and the Data Protection Commissioner have to say about all this?
Update:
Just got off the phone from the Virgin Media press office.
Basically VM haven't implemented anything yet so this is no where near launch. BT are apparently a step further and trialling it with 10,000 customers.
I raised the issue that customers should be given the choice to opt in, not the other way round. VM are looking at this process and are said to be finalising arrangements regarding this, nothing has been agreed yet.
At the moment - the option to opt out, the process involves a visit to a website, webwise and to tick a check box as to whether you want the service or not. This then stores a *cookie* on your computer.
I have asked we be sent some clear clarification on the whole process as there appears to be some ambiguity regarding how this all works.
I'll update this thread as and when I get more information.
hokkers999
19-02-2008, 13:19
I assume that both VM and Phorm will make money on the ads we click on that have been pushed on us by Phorm?
If this is the case, do what I do and don't give them an incentive to push these things on us. Make it uneconomical for them to continue this 'service' by not clicking on any pop-up or embedded ads. As soon as the click-throughs and hence the revenue streams dry up they'll have to reconsider.
I'll opt out, but I also have a personal policy of NEVER clicking on-screen ads. If I want something, I'll find it myself.
I'm still heavily against my browsing habits being tracked by a 3rd party and will be contacting VM as soon as more details become available.
Or do the exact opposite and click on EVERY ad on the screen! Why? The advertiser pays for that click, when they have to pay for millions of clicks and never get any income eventually they'll get the message...
Update:
At the moment - the option to opt out, the process involves a visit to a website, webwise and to tick a check box as to whether you want the service or not. This then stores a *cookie* on your computer.
Do you think they mean a cookie the same as the cookies I clear off my system every time I've finished browsing? So this will be a per session option, everytime I start browsing I have to "opt out". That doesn't seem right I'd assumed it would be an ISP side setting.
Would using a proxy stop this tracking? Surely all their records would show would be the address of the proxy.
I have enough junk through my letter box, which I return in the envelope provided, minus my address of course. I don't require any more via my PC thank you. I have not and never will buy anything from unsolicited advertising. If I require a service I will look for it. Guess if I voted yes or no.:mad:
MovedGoalPosts
19-02-2008, 13:58
I can see why they want it to be an opt out process. Who is going to opt in? and if they don't opt in then the system won't be of benefit to advertisers? If it's opt out, many will simply not do so, through apathy, or even ignorance that the system exists.
Opt out should place nothing on my computer(s). Would I have to do that for every computer I use, and as stated above, if I clear my cookies or whatever, would I have to go through the rigmarole again? Too many, questions, not enough clarity or answers yet.
I have just got off the phone to CS and asked them to add a note to my account stating that should this be a OP out i will be cancelling my service.
MovedGoalPosts
19-02-2008, 14:11
I have just got off the phone to CS and asked them to add a note to my account stating that should this be a OP out i will be cancelling my service.
Troouble is, will the "powers that be" who make the decisions on this sort of stuff, get to know of your intent, before this is actually commenced.
Equally, with apparently the large ISPs already signed to this, and no doubt others taking a strong interest in it, where do you go to reliably avoid it :(
JadeFalcon
19-02-2008, 14:25
i think you will find it is illegal to share customers details with anybody unless you have given strict permission to give that information out due to the data protection act, that is why you get tick boxes on applications and such stuff that allow you to opt in or out of having your details released to a 3rd party, as an opt out this would, imho, be illegal as it is in direct breach of the data protection
article 59 of the data protection act follows (have bolded the main points)--------
59 Confidentiality of information
(1) No person who is or has been the Commissioner, a member of the Commissioner’s staff or an agent of the Commissioner shall disclose any information which—
(a) has been obtained by, or furnished to, the Commissioner under or for the purposes of this Act,
(b) relates to an identified or identifiable individual or business, and
(c) is not at the time of the disclosure, and has not previously been, available to the public from other sources,
unless the disclosure is made with lawful authority.
(2) For the purposes of subsection (1) a disclosure of information is made with lawful authority only if, and to the extent that—
(a) the disclosure is made with the consent of the individual or of the person for the time being carrying on the business,
(b) the information was provided for the purpose of its being made available to the public (in whatever manner) under any provision of this Act,
(c) the disclosure is made for the purposes of, and is necessary for, the discharge of—
(i) any functions under this Act, or
(ii) any Community obligation,
(d) the disclosure is made for the purposes of any proceedings, whether criminal or civil and whether arising under, or by virtue of, this Act or otherwise, or
(e) having regard to the rights and freedoms or legitimate interests of any person, the disclosure is necessary in the public interest.
(3) Any person who knowingly or recklessly discloses information in contravention of subsection (1) is guilty of an offence.
also section 55
55 Unlawful obtaining etc. of personal data
(1) A person must not knowingly or recklessly, without the consent of the data controller—
(a) obtain or disclose personal data or the information contained in personal data, or
(b) procure the disclosure to another person of the information contained in personal data.
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to a person who shows—
(a) that the obtaining, disclosing or procuring—
(i) was necessary for the purpose of preventing or detecting crime, or
(ii) was required or authorised by or under any enactment, by any rule of law or by the order of a court,
(b) that he acted in the reasonable belief that he had in law the right to obtain or disclose the data or information or, as the case may be, to procure the disclosure of the information to the other person,
(c) that he acted in the reasonable belief that he would have had the consent of the data controller if the data controller had known of the obtaining, disclosing or procuring and the circumstances of it, or
(d) that in the particular circumstances the obtaining, disclosing or procuring was justified as being in the public interest.
(3) A person who contravenes subsection (1) is guilty of an offence.
(4) A person who sells personal data is guilty of an offence if he has obtained the data in contravention of subsection (1).
(5) A person who offers to sell personal data is guilty of an offence if—
(a) he has obtained the data in contravention of subsection (1), or
(b) he subsequently obtains the data in contravention of that subsection.
(6) For the purposes of subsection (5), an advertisement indicating that personal data are or may be for sale is an offer to sell the data.
(7) Section 1(2) does not apply for the purposes of this section; and for the purposes of subsections (4) to (6), “personal data” includes information extracted from personal data.
(8) References in this section to personal data do not include references to personal data which by virtue of section 28 are exempt from this section.
Troouble is, will the "powers that be" who make the decisions on this sort of stuff, get to know of your intent, before this is actually commenced.
Equally, with apparently the large ISPs already signed to this, and no doubt others taking a strong interest in it, where do you go to reliably avoid it :(
Its a matter of principal. BE unlimited have at this time not signed up so it will be BEunlimited i move to.
bringerofnoise
19-02-2008, 14:37
Surely they will have let people know in writing about this "service" so that people will have the option of opting out? If they don't then we'll have to make sure we tell as many people as we can and they tell thier friends and so on making it useless anyway.
lol i opted out
jcardiff
19-02-2008, 14:37
i think you will find it is illegal to share customers details with anybody unless you have given strict permission to give that information out due to the data protection act, that is why you get tick boxes on applications and such stuff that allow you to opt in or out of having your details released to a 3rd party, as an opt out this would, imho, be illegal as it is in direct breach of the data protection
I think you will find after the goverment cleared the inland revenue, the immigration service and royal mail of all people the allowance to check your phone records that the supposed laws that would help us in this situation are now being rewritten, yet another nail in our privacy laws brought to you by new fascist- sorry new labour
Care to post how much you earn and where you live?
Yup £18k and Sheffield.
Yup £18k and Sheffield.
Whilst you are keen to post this information - others are not and they are entitled to this privacy although I notice you didn't post your full address. So you are keen to keep some details private.
Update:
Just got off the phone from the Virgin Media press office.
Basically VM haven't implemented anything yet so this is no where near launch. BT are apparently a step further and trialling it with 10,000 customers.
I raised the issue that customers should be given the choice to opt in, not the other way round. VM are looking at this process and are said to be finalising arrangements regarding this, nothing has been agreed yet.
At the moment - the option to opt out, the process involves a visit to a website, webwise and to tick a check box as to whether you want the service or not. This then stores a *cookie* on your computer.
I have asked we be sent some clear clarification on the whole process as there appears to be some ambiguity regarding how this all works.
I'll update this thread as and when I get more information.
Nice, thanks for that Mick
Virgin Media sure know how to hit that self destruct button don't they ?
I'll update this thread as and when I get more information.
Please consider starting *another* thread (and making it sticky) with any important information you and others obtain.
Adding it into this already very busy thread will make it almost impossible for newcomers to locate and benefit from.
Thanks.
Please consider starting *another* thread (and making it sticky) with any important information you and others obtain.
Adding it into this already very busy thread will make it almost impossible for newcomers to locate and benefit from.
Thanks.
Sorry but that would clutter up the place - One thread is enough - people can catch up with this in this thread, as well as the news item on the front page, to which this thread relates. There is also the search feature located at the top of every thread.
But I will reach a compromise and update the thread title with the post number which contains the uptodate information so it can be searched more easily.
Sorry but that would clutter up the place - One thread is enough - people can catch up with this in this thread, as well as the news item on the front page, to which this thread relates. There is also the search feature located at the top of every thread.
But I will reach a compromise and update the thread title with the post number which contains the uptodate information so it can be searched more easily.
It's obviously totally your choice but I'd recommend again:
One discussion thread, that'll quite likely extend to 20+ pages within a week and more once the new system goes live, and
A second announcement thread -- sticky and closed so only Mods can post perhaps -- purely for a summary of what's been uncovered so far. Probably only half a dozen posts.
If you came to the forum for the first time looking for vital information, which would you find easier?
ymmv
Whilst you are keen to post this information - others are not and they are entitled to this privacy although I notice you didn't post your full address. So you are keen to keep some details private.
But the information is already out there. Just by searching this site you'll be able to find which company I work for, Which Dept, and what my job title is, By searching others you'll find my full address, telephone number along with my email.
But the information is already out there. Just by searching this site you'll be able to find which company I work for, Which Dept, and what my job title is. By searching others you'll find my full address, telephone number along with my email.
Sorry but you cannot get such information at all by searching this site.
You don't know my full address details as much as I don't know yours and I can search this site high and low - I will not find it because this site does not contain such information unless of course you have chosen to give this information out.
But the information is already out there. Just by searching this site you'll be able to find which company I work for, Which Dept, and what my job title is, By searching others you'll find my full address, telephone number along with my email.
Ok here you go. If you are so adamant the info is out there.
Username sirius
i play games
been here a while
away you go tell me all the info you find about me ?
MovedGoalPosts
19-02-2008, 18:08
Ok here you go.
Username sirius i play games away you go tell me all the info you find about me ? you have 24 hours
This could be a good game :D
I can see why they want it to be an opt out process. Who is going to opt in?
For people not savvy enough to use Firefox/adblock, I should imagine seeing relative ads would be a lot better than random or content-targetted ads.
Not sure i'm happy about the opt-out process. Every time you clear your cookies you have to go to the site and request a new one?
This could be a good game :D
;)
For people not savvy enough to use Firefox/adblock, I should imagine seeing relative ads would be a lot better than random or content-targetted ads.
Not sure i'm happy about the opt-out process. Every time you clear your cookies you have to go to the site and request a new one?
+ Multiple machines. Multiple users (kids etc). Also how/when will cookie be sent? Do you have to visit VM home page at start of every session, or will they use a proxy session to intercept html and request the cookie?
I was planning on cancelling again now I got over the euphoria of my temporary 10M upgrade/cancellation glitch (see other threads). But I was still very much in two minds. If this goes ahead it will be a no-brainer and help towards next years holiday :)
Update 2. For further clarification, Virgin Media have directed me to the following FAQ on the Phorm website...
Frequently Asked Questions
Who is Phorm? (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)
Phorm is an innovative digital technology company that designed and built the infrastructure and technology that power Webwise and the Open Internet Exchange
(OIX). [X (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)]
Which ISPs have partnered with Phorm to launch the OIX and Webwise? (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)
UK ISPs representing approximately 70% of the UK broadband ISP market have joined Phorm to launch the service to consumers. These are BT Group PLC, The Carphone Warehouse PLC and Virgin Media Group. [X (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)]
For Consumers - Webwise
What is Webwise? (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)
Webwise is a feature offered by leading UK ISPs in the UK that helps protect customers from fraudulent websites and replaces generic online ads with ads that are relevant to customers' interests. Webwise is powered by Phorm technology.[X (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)]
How do I opt out, or switch off the service? (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)
If you have the OIX or Webwise available from your ISP, simply go to www.webwise.com (http://www.webwise.com/%20target=) and click Webwise Off. If you have several computers using the same internet connection, or use different log-ins or browsers, be sure to switch off Webwise from each one.
When Webwise is off, you will no longer receive warnings before reaching fraudulent sites. Webwise will also no longer analyse any data from the web pages that you browse to see if there are better ads to show you. For more information, see www.webwise.com/how-it-works/faq.html (http://www.webwise.com/how-it-works/faq.html). [X (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)]
How does Phorm protect customer privacy? (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)
No private or personal information, or anything that can identify you, is ever stored - and that means your privacy is never at risk.
Phorm identifies each user with a unique, randomly-generated number. With it, Phorm can deliver warnings of potentially dangerous websites and replace untargeted ads with more relevant ones, but can never identify the user personally. Phorm's technology can also be switched off easily at any time. [X (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)]
What information does Phorm store about browsing behaviour? (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)
Phorm only stores advertising categories that match a user's areas of interest. There is no sensitive data stored. [X (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)]
Does Phorm ever store a customer's IP address? (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)
No. The IP address is never stored. [X (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)]
Does Phorm collect any information that can identify me by name, address or any other personally-identifying information? (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)
No. Phorm does not collect personal information, and cannot use it to serve ads. The system does not attempt to identify the user in any way and does not integrate with any system (like the ISP's log-in system) that could identify the user. [X (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)]
How does Phorm ensure that no personal information is collected? (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)
Phorm uses technology that has been built from the ground up to avoid any information that might identify a customer personally. Phorm technology does not view any information on secure (HTTPS) pages, and ignores strings of numbers longer than three digits to ensure that we do not collect credit card numbers, phone numbers, National Insurance or other potentially private information. [X (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)]
Can a user's browsing history be identified if the government or ISP requests it? (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)
No. The browsing history is not stored in any way. The unique fundamental design of this technology ensures that consumer privacy is protected and that, even under compulsion, no personally-identifying data or detailed browsing data can be retroactively provided to anyone.
The privacy claims Phorm make about its technology's use of consumer data have been verified by leading global auditing firm Ernst & Young. (View report PDF (http://www.phorm.com/user_privacy/EY_Phorm_Exam.pdf)) The technology used by the OIX will be regularly audited on an ongoing basis to make sure that we continue to comply with our commitment. [X (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)]
What type of security measures do you have so that aggregated data is not stolen or lost? (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)
Phorm has a high level of system and network security and operates a stringent security policy. Access to database hosts is restricted to systems administrators and data access is only permitted for specific purposes within the terms of the security policy.
However, the major safeguard is that all data is anonymous and cannot be attached to any individual. Only derived channel-match information is stored against the anonymous id in the database and all raw data is deliberately and continuously deleted according to the privacy timeline. These procedures are regularly audited and verified by Ernst & Young. [X (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)]
MovedGoalPosts
19-02-2008, 18:48
Virgin (phorm) might need to rethink the idea of an opt in or opt out procedure relying on a cookie:
Guidance on the Privacy and Electronic
Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003
Part 2: Security, confidentiality, traffic and location data,
itemised billing, CLI and directories
2.2 Information to be provided
Cookies or similar devices must not be used unless the subscriber or user of the
relevant terminal equipment:
• is provided with clear and comprehensive information about the purposes
of the storage of, or access to, that information; and
• is given the opportunity to refuse the storage of, or access to, that
information.
The Regulations are not prescriptive about the sort of information that should be
provided, but the text should be sufficiently full and intelligible to allow individuals
to clearly understand the potential consequences of allowing storage and access
to the information collected by the device should they wish to do so. This is
comparable with the transparency requirements of the first data protection
principle (see Legal Guidance paragraph 3.1.7).
There may be different interpretations of the requirement that the user or
subscriber should be 'given the opportunity to refuse' the use of the cookie type
device. At the very least, however, the user or subscriber should be given a clear
choice as to whether or not they wish to allow a service provider to continue to
store information on the terminal in question.
The fact that an 'opportunity to refuse' such storage or access must be provided
imposes a greater obligation on the relevant party than simply making refusal a
possibility. The mechanism by which a subscriber or user may exercise their right
to refuse continued storage should be prominent, intelligible and readily available
to all, not just the most computer literate or technically aware. Where the relevant
information is included in a privacy policy, for example, the policy should be
clearly signposted at least on those pages where a user may enter a website.
The relevant information should appear in the policy in a way that is suitably
prominent and accessible and it should be worded so that all users and
subscribers are able to easily understand and act upon it.
On that basis I can refuse a cookie that stores that I've opted out, because it's storing information on my preference. Similarly I can refuse the opt in cookie.
Update 2. For further clarification, Virgin Media have directed me to the following FAQ on the Phorm website...
Frequently Asked Questions
Who is Phorm? (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)
Phorm is an innovative digital technology company that designed and built the infrastructure and technology that power Webwise and the Open Internet Exchange
(OIX). [X (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)]
Which ISPs have partnered with Phorm to launch the OIX and Webwise? (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)
UK ISPs representing approximately 70% of the UK broadband ISP market have joined Phorm to launch the service to consumers. These are BT Group PLC, The Carphone Warehouse PLC and Virgin Media Group. [X (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)]
For Consumers - Webwise
What is Webwise? (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)
Webwise is a feature offered by leading UK ISPs in the UK that helps protect customers from fraudulent websites and replaces generic online ads with ads that are relevant to customers' interests. Webwise is powered by Phorm technology.[X (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)]
How do I opt out, or switch off the service? (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)
If you have the OIX or Webwise available from your ISP, simply go to www.webwise.com (http://www.webwise.com/%20target=) and click Webwise Off. If you have several computers using the same internet connection, or use different log-ins or browsers, be sure to switch off Webwise from each one.
When Webwise is off, you will no longer receive warnings before reaching fraudulent sites. Webwise will also no longer analyse any data from the web pages that you browse to see if there are better ads to show you. For more information, see www.webwise.com/how-it-works/faq.html (http://www.webwise.com/how-it-works/faq.html). [X (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)]
No matter what that site says i still think Virgin are totally in the wrong by making this Spyware a opt out not a opt in.
When Webwise is off, you will no longer receive warnings before reaching fraudulent sites. Webwise will also no longer analyse any data from the web pages that you browse to see if there are better ads to show you. For more information, see www.webwise.com/how-it-works/faq.html (http://www.webwise.com/how-it-works/faq.html). [X (http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_faqs=4,5#)]
They really like to play on your fears don't they:rolleyes:
I bet they're hoping people will not notice that their choices are either sanctioned (£->Phorm) or unsanctioned (normal) web-ads, while all the time wrapping it up as if they're providing us with a 'service'.
Fortunately, I like to slice my own bread. I don't need Phorm to do it for me.
bringerofnoise
19-02-2008, 19:48
By making it a pain in the backside EG:needed to re-opt out everytime you do some pc hosekeeping they hoping that people will give in.
I think i'll do the opt out and see what the cookie contains and see if i can "automate the process" in someway if thats how they are going to make it:mad:
I wander what you have to do to get the head job @ VM it sure as hell can't be to do with intelligence, unless the idea is to loose customers then obviously they've hired a bonefide genius :rolleyes:
sigh
I've included some more questions from the FAQ from Phorms website in my post above:-
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34492122-post102.html
I've included some more questions from the FAQ from Phorms website in my post above:-
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34492122-post102.html
They go on and on about not using personal information, The bloody point is that VIRGIN are going to give them the information without asking me first ?????????:mad:
lucevans
19-02-2008, 20:38
Okay everyone... bookmark the page below (or even better, make it your homepage so every time you launch your browser, the first thing you do is click on OFF... that'll really **** Phorm off if hundreds of thousands of people start to do that 10 times a day...)
http://www.webwise.com/privacy/opt/out.html
:D
Okay everyone... bookmark the page below (or even better, make it your homepage so every time you launch your browser, the first thing you do is click on OFF... that'll really **** Phorm off if hundreds of thousands of people start to do that 10 times a day...)
http://www.webwise.com/privacy/opt/out.html
:D
Nice find :clap::clap::clap:
I have inserted it in my Sig for all to see. Maybe everyone should put it in their sig. Plus post it on every bloody website and forum you visit.
So do I need to keep this 1 cookie at all times??
What if having this stored cookie does the opposite of what they say?
OK, too late now but I wish to retract my previous comment. It would appear that the company behind Pform appear to deploy spyware tactics to push these adverts through, and are linked with very deep root kit intrusion systems.
I've been following the many threads on the VM newsgroups, and what I am seeing on there is concerning to say the least.
If the rumours are anywhere near true, cookies will not be a problem, it could be considerably worse.
Advice, if you are prompted to download an Active X control, or some other download mechanism from the VM portal in the near future carefully read the terms and conditions of that download.
I'm curious about this part on the Phorm FAQ:
What kind of ad units will be delivered to my subscriber, and where will they see them?
The OIX can potentially serve ads to any of the websites your subscriber normally visits in the regular places the website shows ads. The OIX does not show pop-ups or pop-unders. [X]
Does that mean this system replaces existing adverts on websites you visit? I can't imagine that would make anyone who runs a website particularly happy if they're to lose out on revenue from 70% of the UK.
Please correct me if I've grasped the wrong end of the stick...
lucevans
19-02-2008, 21:28
OK, too late now but I wish to retract my previous comment. It would appear that the company behind Pform appear to deploy spyware tactics to push these adverts through, and are linked with very deep root kit intrusion systems.
I've been following the many threads on the VM newsgroups, and what I am seeing on there is concerning to say the least.
If the rumours are anywhere near true, cookies will not be a problem, it could be considerably worse.
Advice, if you are prompted to download an Active X control, or some other download mechanism from the VM portal in the near future carefully read the terms and conditions of that download.
Care to elaborate, Toto? I'd be interested to read any info you've seen on their rootkit activities (and more importantly, so might the data protection commissioner). Presumably these would be ineffective against our Mac and Linux cousins?
Care to elaborate, Toto? I'd be interested to read any info you've seen on their rootkit activities (and more importantly, so might the data protection commissioner). Presumably these would be ineffective against our Mac and Linux cousins?
Sure thing, if the moderators have no objections, I think I can find some links from the VM discussion forums....give me a few minutes.
OK, read this (http://www.phorm.com/reports/Admission_to_AIM.pdf) first (its a pdf document, scanned with NOD32, safe).
The Chairman and CEO listed in there may have been responsible for this (http://www.f-secure.com/sw-desc/apropos.shtml)
And this article (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/small-talk-spyware-company-has-its-eye-on-a-fund-raiser-534944.html) will seal it. You will notice the company name in there is the one behind Phorm.
Apologies if I have broken forum rules, but I think it makes interesting reading if these articles are true.
EDIT: This article (http://blogs.zdnet.com/Spyware/?p=820) really puts some meat on the bones. :)
---------- Post added at 21:41 ---------- Previous post was at 21:31 ----------
I'm curious about this part on the Phorm FAQ:
Does that mean this system replaces existing adverts on websites you visit? I can't imagine that would make anyone who runs a website particularly happy if they're to lose out on revenue from 70% of the UK.
Please correct me if I've grasped the wrong end of the stick...
I think you have grasped the stick firmly in both hands. Is it me, or does this look worse by the minute??
Speak for yourself. I haven't rolled over yet and never will.
Sorry Mick, I wasn't implying any kind of subservient compliance. But, it is fact that they know what car you drive, where you go on holiday, where you go during the day, what you eat, where you work, what your credit rating is, where you bank, what your health is like etc etc so knowing your browsing habits is part of a very long list. And who's to say that those who choose to opt out aren't actually of more interest to them than those who don't?
Hell, give 'em a hair these days and they'll go and make a new version of you. Sorry readers, I'm just rambling :D
Sure thing, if the moderators have no objections, I think I can find some links from the VM discussion forums....give me a few minutes.
OK, read this (http://www.phorm.com/reports/Admission_to_AIM.pdf) first (its a pdf document, scanned with NOD32, safe).
The Chairman and CEO listed in there may have been responsible for this (http://www.f-secure.com/sw-desc/apropos.shtml)
And this article (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/small-talk-spyware-company-has-its-eye-on-a-fund-raiser-534944.html) will seal it. You will notice the company name in there is the one behind Phorm.
Apologies if I have broken forum rules, but I think it makes interesting reading if these articles are true.
---------- Post added at 21:41 ---------- Previous post was at 21:31 ----------
I think you have grasped the stick firmly in both hands. Is it me, or does this look worse by the minute??
This does not shock me one little bit when it comes to Virginmedia.
---------- Post added at 21:57 ---------- Previous post was at 21:46 ----------
:
This does not shock me one little bit when it comes to Virginmedia.
---------- Post added at 21:57 ---------- Previous post was at 21:46 ----------
:LOL: how about this from the newsgroups
Well yeh, they aren't seeling on your details, but it bothers me like hell that in order to deliver these adverts it would "seem" that spyware is the only way to do it...........NO! NOT ON YOUR LIFE!!!!!!
Well yeh, they aren't seeling on your details, but it bothers me like hell that in order to deliver these adverts it would "seem" that spyware is the only way to do it...........NO! NOT ON YOUR LIFE!!!!!!
What gets me is that they are going to give my personal information to a third party without my consent and without telling me. That is a total like of security on VirginMedia's part and is criminal in my eye's
what we are going 5to need is for someone to come up with some form of blocking software to block them
What gets me is that they are going to give my personal information to a third party without my consent and without telling me. That is a total like of security on VirginMedia's part and is criminal in my eye's
They have said they won't be passing your personal information. By that I assume you mean your Name, address and even your IP address?
They have said they won't be passing your personal information. By that I assume you mean your Name, address and even your IP address? What sites i visit is my personal information and not that of a third party paying VirginMedia for the ability to place adverts relating to that information.
That is the PERSONAL information i am talking about. I do on line banking, Pay by credit card online. I do not want ANY information what so ever being passed on by Virgin to some third party so Virgin make a swift buck.
Virgin have stepped over the bloody line this time big time.
what makes this stink even more is that the company they are going to use has the worst reputation any company has ever had for Spyware and Rootkit systems. This is the company that VirginMedia are going to pass on your PERSONAL information to on a daily bases for the time you are a customer of there's.
So the next time you log into your bank or you pay for that flight with your credit card online think that the information on that page will be passed to a third party who has a very very very bad rep in the industry and will do with it as they see fit as long as it makes them a fist full of money
OK, this gets better, you have to love this little snippit from their AIM proposal.
The PageSense Javascript application can be embedded into web pages, where it analyses their
content and communicates this information to the Company’s servers. In this way, a profile of an
individual consumer’s browsing habits can be compiled anonymously, which enables advertising
to be targeted where it will have the most impact. PageSense Javascript can be embedded by a
variety of partners, such as Internet Service Providers, serving pages to those connecting to the
internet through them, web publishers showing content to their user bases, or wireless networks.
The Directors expect to enter into the first such partnership arrangement in the first quarter of
2005.
All I can say is this, thank goodness for the NoScript plugin for Firefox. :)
---------- Post added at 22:13 ---------- Previous post was at 22:12 ----------
What sites i visit is my personal information and not that of a third party paying VirginMedia for the ability to place adverts relating to that information.
That is the PERSONAL information i am talking about. I do on line banking, Pay by credit card online. I do not want ANY information what so ever being passed on by Virgin to some third party so Virgin make a swift buck.
Virgin have stepped over the bloody line this time big time.
Yes, I wasn't having a pop, I just wanted to clarify what you meant by personal information.
I think you have grasped the stick firmly in both hands. Is it me, or does this look worse by the minute??
To clarify this on how I understand the system - They cannot just replace ads on a website that hasn't joined the OIX (Open Internet Exchange) They cannot start to take web advertising space off someone elses ad space, such a move is illegal and we shall consider legal proceedings if anyone attempts to steal advertising space on this website without the website owners consent.
OK, this gets better, you have to love this little snippit from their AIM proposal.
All I can say is this, thank goodness for the NoScript plugin for Firefox. :)
.
Nice one just installed it. Will also lockout IE on all the pc's in my house and allow firefox only from now on.
Will also block Virginmedia's website via my router.
To clarify this on how I understand the system - They cannot just replace ads on a website that hasn't joined the OIX (Open Internet Exchange) They cannot start to take web advertising space off someone elses ad space, such a move is illegal and we shall consider legal proceedings if anyone attempts to steal advertising space on this website without the website owners consent.
OK, so what you are saying then is that adverts served up on those company sites that have joined Phorm will be based on browsing experience.
So for example, if I went to the VM portal, and say clicked on a link to Churchill Insurance (OH YES), then I visited the BT portal, I could expect to have adverts for similar services pushed at me?
---------- Post added at 22:23 ---------- Previous post was at 22:22 ----------
Nice one just installed it. Will also lockout IE on all the pc's in my house and allow firefox only from now on.
Will also block Virginmedia's website via my router.
Its a good little addon, and updates regularly, VERY regularly. :)
To clarify this on how I understand the system - They cannot just replace ads on a website that hasn't joined the OIX (Open Internet Exchange) They cannot start to take web advertising space off someone elses ad space, such a move is illegal and we shall consider legal proceedings if anyone attempts to steal advertising space on this website without the website owners consent.
:LOL:
So i can take it this site will not be joining Virginmedia's new customer shafting system then :)
OK, so what you are saying then is that adverts served up on those company sites that have joined Phorm will be based on browsing experience.
So for example, if I went to the VM portal, and say clicked on a link to Churchill Insurance (OH YES), then I visited the BT portal, I could expect to have adverts for similar services pushed at me?
Yes, this is how I understand the whole concept to work - If a site hasn't signed up to the OIX - Phorm won't exist on that website.
---------- Post added at 22:29 ---------- Previous post was at 22:28 ----------
:LOL:
So i can take it this site will not be joining Virginmedia's new customer shafting system then :)
Not a chance in hell - over my dead body.
MovedGoalPosts
19-02-2008, 22:30
Looking at the vm website they have a specific address for privacy issues:
Attached is a letter I've just sent them. Anyone is welcome to copy or amend it.
Group Compliance
Virgin Media
160 Great Portland Street
London
W1W 5QA
Dear Sirs
Subscriber Privacy: Virgin Media & Phorm
I read with some disgust and alarm of the proposed tie up between Virgin Media & Phorm. This apparently, somehow, involves the disclosure by Virgin Media, to a third party (Phorm) of my web browsing habits, supposedly for marketing purposes.
I am not clear how exactly this works, and frankly am not interested in the technology. I am concerned about my privacy, which I expect you to reasonably protect.
I can find nothing in Virgin Media’s stated privacy policies, terms and conditions or service, or indeed anywhere else that permits Virgin Media to disclose my browsing habits or indeed any personal information to third parties, other than as specifically required by law. Indeed, until recently, there were clauses in the Acceptable Use Policy which indicated that as my ISP you did not even monitor how I used my services. That seems to have been insidiously dropped. Perhaps you can explain how, in view of your policies Virgin Media can now disclose my information without my specific consent?
My interpretation of guidance from the Information Commissioners Office, and elsewhere is that this advertising system would be an electronic transmission and thus requires me to specifically opt in. I hereby confirm I do not opt in. Indeed it should not be necessary for me to even have to spell this out to Virgin Media.
I also note it might be the intention of Virgin Media and / or Phorm to operate an “opt out†system which relies on cookies placed on a users computer. Such a practice is flawed. I am not obliged to retain on my computer any means of storage of information of my preferences, which may be used by others. Please see the Information Commissioner’s Office: Guidance on the Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003, Part 2, section 2.2. Thus reliance on a cookie to prevent transmission of my browsing habits to Phorm via Virgin Media, or simply to prevent me seeing their served up electronic ads breaches these rules. I confirm I do not give consent for such a cookie to be placed on my computer. Thus Virgin Media, if they persist with this ill-advised scheme, must find another method of securing my privacy.
For the avoidance of doubt, I do not consent to my browsing habits, or indeed any other personal data being disclosed to third parties, or even other Virgin Group companies. This applies to any marketing or other purposes that are not directly associated with the supply of the services I have contracted to receive.
At best this smacks of sharp practice in order to prop up Virgin Media’s poor balance sheet. At worst, this whole thing is probably illegal.
Yours faithfully
For those people wondering how to turn it off permenantly:
I delete my cookies regularly, and I want to keep Webwise switched off. How do I do that?
If you regularly delete your cookies and want to ensure that Webwise is permanently switched off, simply add [OIX.net] to the Blocked Cookies settings in your browser.
They use a cookie on you machine to store you identifying number so all you need to do is permenantly reject it.
Still a pita if you have more than one pc and more than one browser installed on each, especially since you need to remember to do it again after a reinstall and possibly an upgrade.
(Wanders off to look at possibility of blocking domain entirely on router firewall.)
Well my router has domain blocking so that was remarkably easy.
Looking at the vm website they have a specific address for privacy issues:
Attached is a letter I've just sent them. Anyone is welcome to copy or amend it.
Good letter Rob....
Did a quick look and found the following clause in their Privacy policy.
We may use aggregate information and statistics for the purposes of monitoring web site usage in order to help us develop the web site and our service and may provide such aggregate information to third parties for example content partners and advertisers. These statistics will not include information that can be used to identify any individual for example, '10,000 people clicked on an advertisement yesterday'
Not sure if it has any bearing on their potential tie up with Phorm.
Looking at the vm website they have a specific address for privacy issues:
Attached is a letter I've just sent them. Anyone is welcome to copy or amend it.
Rob your a star and i will be sending a copy as well. :tu:
lucevans
19-02-2008, 22:51
Sure thing, if the moderators have no objections, I think I can find some links from the VM discussion forums....give me a few minutes.
OK, read this (http://www.phorm.com/reports/Admission_to_AIM.pdf) first (its a pdf document, scanned with NOD32, safe).
The Chairman and CEO listed in there may have been responsible for this (http://www.f-secure.com/sw-desc/apropos.shtml)
And this article (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/small-talk-spyware-company-has-its-eye-on-a-fund-raiser-534944.html) will seal it. You will notice the company name in there is the one behind Phorm.
Apologies if I have broken forum rules, but I think it makes interesting reading if these articles are true.
EDIT: This article (http://blogs.zdnet.com/Spyware/?p=820) really puts some meat on the bones. :)
---------- Post added at 21:41 ---------- Previous post was at 21:31 ----------
I think you have grasped the stick firmly in both hands. Is it me, or does this look worse by the minute??
Thanks for the links Toto - very informative. From the last one, it sounds as if this Ertugrut chap ran into problems with the US authorities over the invasive nature of his company's "technology", so he's upped-sticks and moved the operation (allbeit under a new name) to the UK, where the government don't give a flying-one about individuals' privacy (in fact I'm surprised the government haven't contracted his services for their own nefarious purposes - maybe they have...?) The question now is "what can we do to stop this?"
Good letter Rob....
Did a quick look and found the following clause in their Privacy policy.
Not sure if it has any bearing on their potential tie up with Phorm.
Looks like Virgin are changing there terms and conditions without informing there customers to me.
lucevans
19-02-2008, 22:54
Good letter Rob....
Did a quick look and found the following clause in their Privacy policy.
Not sure if it has any bearing on their potential tie up with Phorm.
Sending the information "10000 people clicked on this link today" to third-parties is NOT the same thing as sending the information "Client 02365794 clicked on this, this, this....and this today" The latter is, whilst still technically anonymous, specific to a single individual, and therefore by definition, not aggregated data.
Looks like Virgin are changing there terms and conditions without informing there customers to me.
Actually, I think that has always been there, but in the absense of any document version number or date, I cannot be 100% sure.
---------- Post added at 22:59 ---------- Previous post was at 22:55 ----------
Sending the information "10000 people clicked on this link today" to third-parties is NOT the same thing as sending the information "Client 02365794 clicked on this, this, this....and this today" The latter is, whilst still technically anonymous, specific to a single individual, and therefore by definition, not aggregated data.
Yeh, getting tired now. There's probably something in the cookies section of their privacy "policy", but my eyes are itching.
Goodnight all.
The thing about the terms and conditions is it contains this section:
We and/or Virgin Media Payments may at any time improve, modify, amend or alter the terms of this agreement and/or the services and their content if:
1. there is any change or amendment to any law or regulation which applies to us or Virgin Media Payments or the services we provide to you;
2. we decide that the services should be altered for reasons of quality of service or otherwise for the benefit of our customers or, in our reasonable opinion, it is necessary to do so;
3. for security, technical or operational reasons;
4. the programming or content provided to us by any of our programme and service providers is altered;
5. we decide to offer certain programmes as Pay-Per-View or programmes on demand;
6. if the changes or additions are minor and do not affect you significantly or we wish to have all our customers on the same terms and conditions; or
7. in all other events, where we reasonably determine that any modification to our system or change in our trading, operating or business practices or policy is necessary to maintain or improve the services which we provide to you.
lucevans
19-02-2008, 23:14
Looking at the vm website they have a specific address for privacy issues:
Attached is a letter I've just sent them. Anyone is welcome to copy or amend it.
Thanks Rob. You're a star. Is there a privacy issues e-mail address, or is it snail-mail only?
MovedGoalPosts
19-02-2008, 23:28
I've only found the snail mail one so far:
http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/legal/oncable/privacypolicy.html
---------- Post added at 23:28 ---------- Previous post was at 23:19 ----------
It's also worth noting Virgin Media's own Code of Practice (http://allyours.virginmedia.com/pdf/code_of_practice_0208.pdf) - a plain speaking document that really can't be that much more explicit in it's wording:
5.8 Confidentiality of Customer Information
We will treat any information we have about you in confidence and will not disclose it to anyone except yourself, or in accordance with any instructions you have given us. However, there are circumstances in which we may be required by law to disclose information. Such requests normally come from Statutory Authorities, for example, Police Forces, Customs and Excise etc. Any such disclosure will be strictly controlled and will be made fully in accordance with current UK legislation, in particular the Data Protection Act 1998.
I specifically observe the phrase "any information"
So their Privacy Policy contradicts their Code of Practice?
Im sure that little loophole will be altered.
Either way, if this comes into practice, then its obviously a breach of contract.
fatbloke
20-02-2008, 00:46
I think that I will be saying bye bye VM soon..they never learn.:rolleyes:
I wonder if Watchdog will be looking into this?
petersamson
20-02-2008, 00:51
Is there any way to get out of the contract based on this news?
MovedGoalPosts
20-02-2008, 08:37
Is there any way to get out of the contract based on this news?
Until it is implemented, certainly not. If it's implemented, without a robust procedure that means that the customer's information is not disclosed, then as far as I am concerned it will be a breach of contract by VM for infringement of my rights and I will vot with my feet.whether they like it or not.
lostandconfused
20-02-2008, 08:53
Is there any way to get out of the contract based on this news?
Wont there be an opt out? If thats the case i dont think it would be a way of getting out of contract
MovedGoalPosts
20-02-2008, 10:47
That depends on whether an opt out procedure is sufficient to guarantee privacy.
Remember this is not about the display of the ads, it's the information that is being passed so the ads can be created. A cookie that blocks the ad display is thus woefully inadequate.
In any case, the extent of this invasion of privacy means that, according to every bit of guidance I can find, the spirit of the law is an opt in procedure is needed, not opt out. Unfortunately this may be a grey area where the legislation didn't quite envisage this form of transmission of electronic privacy data.
Ekkk - This is getting all complicated... can someone please help me out.
It seems that by "opting out" at webwise that a dummy cookie is placed on your PC which will deflect all ads. Alternatively, you can block cookies from OIX.net. OK... fine with that per se.... BUT it seems that Virgin will STILL be selling my surfing habits to these Phorm characters, its just that I will be mitigating the affects by blocking cookies. This is unacceptable to me. Are Virgin offering the option for us to opt out of Virgin selling data to Phorm?
Sorry to those that get annoyed at posts like these, I have tried to follow the thing through but its too complicated for a newb like me.
THANKS
MovedGoalPosts
20-02-2008, 12:22
Spleeny, that is it in a nutshell. As far as I can see your details will continue to be sold, and privacy invaded, even if you have followed the "opt out" procedure so far outlined.
AFAIK this would be illegal under the Data Protection Act unless we give consent for it to happen. Although consent can be simply failing to reject the changes to the T&C’s.
I think I’m going to write a letter explicitly withdrawing permission to pass on my data to any third party.
Until it is implemented, certainly not. If it's implemented, without a robust procedure that means that the customer's information is not disclosed, then as far as I am concerned it will be a breach of contract by VM for infringement of my rights and I will vot with my feet.whether they like it or not.
No offence Rob, but implemented, thinking about it, planning it etc, they (VM) DO NOT give a hoot about their customers, IF they DID, then surely some bright spark somewhere in the whole company would have bought up the fact that at the moment it is ILLEGAL for vm to pass on any of it's customers details, and IMO, as they are seriously considering this, then it just proves they will do ANYTHING and I do mean ANYTHING to make more money for themselves!
I wish I could get my hands on the no-good piece of trash at vm that agreed to this, Id shake the twerp till he couldnt do anything
I feel sure that many people reading this topic may conclude that spying on our web usage albeit with supposed anonymity is no big deal.
I would suggest that a Google on "AOL privacy violation" will show what a mess they got themselves into when their practises became public. A 60+ year old woman was easily identified from search practises and it was the unique anonymous collection of data that pointed to her. If for example you input your full name in a genealogy search then every data entry applicable to the anonymous identifier is obviously from that individual.
For my part I care not what assurances are given of data security because there have been far too many instances of seriously important data losses and leaks from government and local authority departments to even trust them let alone a bunch of fly by night advertising sharks.
IMO it is absolutely appalling that a service provider, who already struggles to give what it charges for, should violate privacy for financial gain. The USA has been through this process (privacy intrusions) and the sharks have been thrown out just for the process to start over here. I bet we are naive and apathetic enough to let them get away with it.
The was an example of choice of targeted ads and that was Opera. Free with ads and pay for without. IMO NTL have a choice = free with ads or pay for without which of course has no chance.
I am angry because I pay a load of money for a service which is way below par and they now advocate exploitation
It would just be the icing on the cake if this phorm backs up its data onto CD.... Man we are all so screwed!!
Just download an IP changer
http://www.theprivacyguard.com/images/screen1.jpg
Then they cannot target you
http://www.theprivacyguard.com
MovedGoalPosts
20-02-2008, 15:03
How would an IP change / proxy guarantee your privacy. Who is to say that the details your ISP is giving away are not linked to the mac address of your modem :confused:
We really haven't got enough information on how the system uploads information on your browsing habits. I'd suggest it has to be something at ISP network level, if the ISPs are required to sign up. That negates anything at your own computer level, except for blocking the final advert displays.
Just download an IP changer
Then they cannot target you
http://www.theprivacyguard.com
That does not change your original IP. What it does is change your proxy settings to a random proxy, so websites you are viewing cannot see it.
Virgin's logging system will probably log your communications BEFORE your TCPIP packets get to the proxy (anonymous or not).
brundles
20-02-2008, 15:37
How would an IP change / proxy guarantee your privacy. Who is to say that the details your ISP is giving away are not linked to the mac address of your modem :confused:
We really haven't got enough information on how the system uploads information on your browsing habits. I'd suggest it has to be something at ISP network level, if the ISPs are required to sign up. That negates anything at your own computer level, except for blocking the final advert displays.
Something like that is an interesting point. If they were basing the logging and ad serving on IP address then wouldn't that open the way for you to get ads targetted at someone else after a few modem reboots? Not good if that someone else had unsavory habits and choices of web pages.
Another worry is the performance impact. The network is slow enough already in places - now they're adding in a constant stream of bandwidth to Phorm as a requirement. Best case is that Phorm just get a batch of data once a week/day and the realtime bandwidth is limited to "ad for customer 1234 please" and the advert coming back. Worst case is VM sending the full profile every time if they keep the data.
The PageSense links above are a real worry - while NoScript is a damn good plugin, certain trusted websites (e.g. my bank!) still use them and have been whitelisted. Essentially this means that PageSense is able to grab sensitive information on the very sites you don't want them to have data from. I like the idea of the domain blocking (might be time to add that on to my router!) but all that would take is for the communication to be IP based rather than domain based to work around it.
Edit: Thinking about it, GreaseMonkey may also be of some use here - you could then write a script to specifically rip out any PageSense script in the page coming through so that even whitelisted pages are still safe.
Just download an IP changer
http://www.theprivacyguard.com/images/screen1.jpg
Then they cannot target you
http://www.theprivacyguard.com
Looking at the system they intend to deploy changing your ip will be as much use as an ash tray on a motorbike :LOL:
Not to mention, as the AOL search leak demonstrated, people put a lot of personally identifying information in URLs.
---------- Post added at 16:43 ---------- Previous post was at 16:18 ----------
Just download an IP changer
Then they cannot target you
http://www.theprivacyguard.com
All this does is switch between HTTP Proxies. If you do this automatically
it will break HTTP sessions. Most proxies will be pretty slow too. A big sacrifice for any real world protection you think you may be getting.
Also as Phorm will likely be cookie based and be able to cope with DHCP , switching IP address wont make any difference.
A bit Snake Oilish.
You could have just installed the FireFox SwitchProxy tool for free.
I now have the full costs of moving my accounts to SKY, BT and BE Unlimited should Virgin Media decide to go ahead and start giving my private and personal information to a third party company against my wishes and in my opinion against the LAW.
Virgin have now put them selves in the class of the SPYWARE, Virus companies as far as i am concerned and i want nothing to do with them.
Virgin Will lose every product i have with them TV, Phone, Broadband, Mobile
MovedGoalPosts
20-02-2008, 17:34
I'd be interested to know what Mr Branson thinks of this latest potentially damaging move to his brand name?
I'd be interested to know what Mr Branson thinks of this latest potentially damaging move to his brand name?
If it means he gets his share bonus then what will he care about.
you have a PM
lucevans
20-02-2008, 20:23
To quote the Webwise FAQs...
"Do I have to have a PC to use Webwise?
No. Webwise works on all computers that browse the web and over 94% of Internet browsers.
Which browsers are the 6%? I have a feeling that they're going to make up more than 6% of Virgin Media customer's browsers before long....
To quote the Webwise FAQs...
"Do I have to have a PC to use Webwise?
No. Webwise works on all computers that browse the web and over 94% of Internet browsers.
Which browsers are the 6%? I have a feeling that they're going to make up more than 6% of Virgin Media customer's browsers before long....
This is a stab in the dark here, but that figure could be Internet Explorer, which "could" indicate that the technology is Active X control based.
Use JAP (http://anon.inf.tu-dresden.de/index_en.html). Anonymity and privacy almost guaranteed.
Kellargh
21-02-2008, 13:54
I'm disgusted. This isn't only happening on Virgin but on BT as well...I'm really unhappy about this as it's a blatant disregard for my privacy!! More personal information to be lost in the future is all I can see!
(ps. maybe change the vote to 'opt out of your internet supplier?')
Paranoimia
21-02-2008, 14:10
Apologies if anything here has already been mentioned, but there are too many posts in this thread for me to read through.
Firstly, this business about storing a cookie to opt out is a joke. That basically means that you need to remember to opt out every time you clear personal data from your system, or re-install your machine. Exactly why this should be opt in and not opt out.
Secondly, from what I've read on the WebWise website, this technology is what diverts you to a warning screen when you're about to visit dodgy phishing sites:
"Webwise automatically checks web addresses you browse to, even ones you click on accidentally, against key industry blacklists of known fraudulent websites. These lists are constantly updated by the top companies in this field. Sites that appear on those lists will be flagged with a warning notice before you reach them, giving you an opportunity to avoid them."
So my question is - why should we need to disable such a security device simply to opt out of an advertising scheme? These two items should be completely separate - opting out of the adverts should under no circumstances affect our security.
The current scheme seems to hold a virtual gun to our heads, and say "view our adverts, or risk your online safety." Okay, everyone should have firewalls etc. installed, but even so, the removal of any additional layer of security can only be seen as a bad thing.
If everyone installs a good ad blocker then no ads will get through to anyone, end result no revenue generated. Perhaps VM will heed the message & drop this stupid idea. Better still a switched on VM manager read this thread, then use the grey matter & stop the ad deal being implemented.
rogerdraig
21-02-2008, 19:20
i have cookies blocked on the kids computers wonders if virgin would be allowed to track the on-line habits of minors and sell them on ?
this cookie on my computer thing seemed laughable to me if i tell them i don't want to take part it should be up to them to store it on their system
next the TPS will be saying we need dongles on phones to make sure we want to opt out
RizzyKing
21-02-2008, 20:23
Ok i havn't read all the pages (was losing the will to live) so excuse me if this has been mentioned. i used to work for a market research company the monetary value of this type of information is massive. If VM do this they should reduce the cost to all subscribers to take account of the large amount of money they will get for this little bout of spying.
If VM are not getting a large sum of money due to this we should all cancel our subscriptions as VM obviously has some of the most incompetent business people in the UK atm. I have voted to opt out if this comes in because i have seen similar schemes to these get very misused when the company concerned is chasing the money train.
This is not something that should be allowed and personally i think if this goes ahead it should be the other way round you opt in to this not opt out. For those saying "ah but we are monitored all the time nowadays" yeah thats true and shame on all of us for allowing it to get to the stage it is at but that doesn't mean we have to keep going along with it.
Say no, mean no and if they don't listen cancel your subscription i gaurantee enough do that you'll suddenly find VM very attentive.
If everyone installs a good ad blocker then no ads will get through to anyone, end result no revenue generated. Perhaps VM will heed the message & drop this stupid idea. Better still a switched on VM manager read this thread, then use the grey matter & stop the ad deal being implemented.
However VM will still be sending the information to this Spyware company. the cookie if i read it correctly only stops you seeing the end resulting ad's
---------- Post added at 20:37 ---------- Previous post was at 20:35 ----------
Say no, mean no and if they don't listen cancel your subscription i gaurantee enough do that you'll suddenly find VM very attentive.
I intend to do just that should this Spyware be used.
I've said it before but I thought it needed clarification.
Phorm use a cookie to store your Personal identification number or PIN so. blocking cookies from OIX.net (or indeed all cookies) means no PIN which means no data is collected.
Phorm do not collect urls they classify websites (e.g. "Finance" or "Health and Beauty") and collect and store the classifications.
I don't really think this is very easily tracable as the link between the data and you is stored on your pc, and the data itself is not particularly sensitive. It's a bit like some standing in a street and giving you a flyer for a clothing store after noticing that you had been in several recently and ignoring the next guy because all he had been in was electronics goods shops.
It's fairly easy to stop especially if your router supports url blocking, then you can block all traffic from them for all your pc's. You could also block it from your personal firewall or your browser.
I'm not trying to condone the action but Virgin media is a business and has to be as competitive as possible, network upgrades have to be paid for somehow.
MovedGoalPosts
21-02-2008, 21:10
I've said it before but I thought it needed clarification.
Phorm use a cookie to store your Personal identification number or PIN so. blocking cookies from OIX.net (or indeed all cookies) means no PIN which means no data is collected.
Phorm do not collect urls they classify websites (e.g. "Finance" or "Health and Beauty") and collect and store the classifications.
If that is how it works, purely cookie based, why does the ISP need to be involved :confused:
Simple truth your ISP is about to sell you out, by selling to Phorm your usage habits. That requires some sort of network monitoring system. All a cookie will do is identify you to Phorm when they try to serve the ads back up. If is was purely cookie base, all the spyware companies would extremely quickly blacklist anything to do with Phorm.
lucevans
21-02-2008, 21:12
However VM will still be sending the information to this Spyware company. the cookie if i read it correctly only stops you seeing the end resulting ad's
---------- Post added at 20:37 ---------- Previous post was at 20:35 ----------
I intend to do just that should this Spyware be used.
I've just downloaded and started to read the Enst & Young audit on Phorm's process, and it states; "We offer an easy, anonymous method for users to opt out of Phorm's systems if they would rather not receive targeted advertising and content. For as long as a user retains the Phorm opt-out cookie, the system will not collect or store data on their browsing behaviour." (my bold highlighting) Their claim appears to be that if we opt out, then they will not collect any data even though VM may well still be sending it to them. How much do we trust them on this? Not much at all would be my answer...before this system is initiated, VM must tell all of it's customers exactly how this works: If a customer has opted-out, what information (if any) is still sent by them to Phorm, and what information (if any) is still collected, stored and analysed by Phorm, regardless of whether "web security" or advertisements are provided to that customer or not.
"We offer an easy, anonymous method for users to opt out of Phorm's systems if they would rather not receive a shot to the head"
^_^
lucevans
21-02-2008, 21:22
If that is how it works, purely cookie based, why does the ISP need to be involved :confused:
Simple truth your ISP is about to sell you out, by selling to Phorm your usage habits. That requires some sort of network monitoring system. All a cookie will do is identify you to Phorm when they try to serve the ads back up. If is was purely cookie base, all the spyware companies would extremely quickly blacklist anything to do with Phorm.
Good point. For this to work the way they hope it will, maybe VM will access that cookie with every webpage they serve us with, then send the resulting category data (and God knows what else) to Phorm?
The question is how do you get the cookie? As far as I know you can't get a cookie without visiting a website (though I may be wrong). I take it that phorm have some software which wil have to sit on virgins network and monitor data but I don't know how this will work - if it's just monitoring data how does it manage to examine your cookie? Does it just do it for web sites that are signed up for it's services? That would work, so it would not know about sites you visit that haven't signed up for it's services so it wouldn't work for everyone anyway.
And how much of our precious bandwidth will be used sending all this data all over the place?
Ooh, just had a thought, you could have real fun deliberatly opting in and then editing the cookie on a random basis.........
---------- Post added at 21:34 ---------- Previous post was at 21:29 ----------
@ Rob
It's not purely cookie based there has to be something VMs side too but the cookie is the identifier so no cookie = opt out cookie but in my opinion easier to implement. How it actually works we are unlikely to know until someone reverse engineers it.
lucevans
21-02-2008, 21:40
I've said it before but I thought it needed clarification.
Phorm use a cookie to store your Personal identification number or PIN so. blocking cookies from OIX.net (or indeed all cookies) means no PIN which means no data is collected.
So if the user sucessfully blocks the cookie from ever being stored on their system;
Does this mean that the usage data still gets sent to Phorm, but with no user ID number (i.e. truly anonymous for us, and next-to-useless to them)?
-or- does it mean that because there is no ID number, NO data gets sent to Phorm?
-or- does it mean that the usage data just gets sent with some other unique identifier supplied by the ISP instead?(perhaps something related to your physical cable line on the UBR)
Also, isn't it likely that if too many people take a dislike to this system and block the cookie by it's domain (e.g. in their router) then it's quick and simple enough for VM or Phorm to quietly change the domain of the data collection part of the system without telling us, thus bypassing the block?
I guess until someone tells us how this system will actually work (technically, not the vague, infantile rubbish in the FAQ on the Webwise site) then nobody will know whether their attempts to protect their privacy are working or not...
Also, isn't it likely that if too many people take a dislike to this system and block the cookie
No most people will be unaware of it.
it's quick and simple enough for VM or Phorm to quietly change the domain of the data collection part of the system without telling us, thus bypassing the block?
The process is audited by a fairly reputable firm.
technically, not the vague, infantile rubbish in the FAQ on the Webwise site
It is unlikely since this would be fairly commercially sensitive information.
MovedGoalPosts
21-02-2008, 23:05
The process is audited by a fairly reputable
firm.
Since when die Ernst & Young, a firm of accountants get known for their technical expertise in IT :confused:
---------- Post added at 23:05 ---------- Previous post was at 23:03 ----------
The only people I might trust, and even then with some reservations given recent debacles, would be OFCOM or the Information Commissioner's Office verifiying that this procedure did in fact meet the requirements of various legislation and also verifying that my anonymity was utterly guaranteed.
Unfortunately the Phorm technique for acquiring information to supply targeted ads appears to go way beyond the "AOL privacy violation" debacle.
On their OIX site (open internet exchange) they claim to be able to use "behavioural keywords" derived, over time, from a combination of search terms, URL's and even contextual page analysis.
Forget about cookies which I think is a smokescreen and think of what is needed to gain that information and although it falls way short of a keylogger it has what was searched for, what URL's were visited and what pages were viewed. Spying is the only term for what is intended.
They cannot do what they offer ISP's without a major infringement on the privacy of the client base. They will and must spy on users and the the AOL debacle shows that anonymity via a random number is no surety of anonymity.
If I was with one of the ISP's that has apparently expressed an interest then I would have no cause for complaint because they offer me ADSL for free. IMO if you pay nothing then you have no real rights but I pay VM shed loads of money and I resent the thought of them charging me premium prices to spy on me for extra money.
Unfortunately the Porm technique for acquiring information to supply targeted ads appears to go way beyond the "AOL privacy violation" debacle.
On their OIX site (open Internet exchange) they claim to be able to use "behavioural keywords" derived, over time, from a combination of search terms, URLs and even contextual page analysis.
Forget about cookies which I think is a smokescreen and think of what is needed to gain that information and although it falls way short of a keylogger it has what was searched for, what URLs were visited and what pages were viewed. Spying is the only term for what is intended.
They cannot do what they offer Isp without a major infringement on the privacy of the client base. They will and must spy on users and the the AOL debacle shows that anonymity via a random number is no surety of anonymity.
If I was with one of the ISP's that has apparently expressed an interest then I would have no cause for complaint because they offer me ADSL for free. IMO if you pay nothing then you have no real rights but I pay VM shed loads of money and I resent the thought of them charging me premium prices to spy on me for extra money.
The way i see it is that VM will send your information to this Spyware company no matter if you have a cookie set or not. The cookie just stops you seeing the end result which is the adverts. VM in my opinion will be selling MY personal information to this Spyware company no matter what i do,
Therefor the only option should they go ahead with this is for me to dump them and go with a company not using this spyware company
The way i see it is that VM will send your information to this Spyware company no matter if you have a cookie set or not. The cookie just stops you seeing the end result which is the adverts. VM in my opinion will be selling MY personal information to this Spyware company no matter what i do,
Therefor the only option should they go ahead with this is for me to dump them and go with a company not using this spyware company
perhaps one of your better options is to bring a small claim for damages and costs to re-locate to another company that takes the legal term 'in good faith' seriously, as a last resort.
plus every single person effected, make the Data Protection Commissioner aware that Virgin Media,BT etc, intend selling its users owned private data for profit,in direct defience of the UK Data Protection Act with an official complaint, the DPC takes emails as an official notice, unlike VM now they removed that option in the T&C.
also you might not want to move for reasons beyond your control and so sending the Virgin media data protection act controller an official DPA complience Notice letter using the old registered post, removing any and all rights they may have receaved from you the owner, to export or transfer any data pertaining to you, will in effect kill any and all for sale options and far more besides (if VM want to stay UK legal).
this Virgin Media/BT/CW Phorm rootkit collaberation goes way beyond even skys legal cockup although you could be forgiven for thinking some VM T&C exec was reading skys plan to sell personal data on the open markets and they wanted in on the action to increase their personal company shares and profits.
http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=576&m=f
Data Commissioner suspends planned legal enforcement action following Sky withdrawal of Customer Notice
http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=575&m=f
"
Press Release
30 November 2007
Complaints about British Sky Broadcasting Group Marketing
Over the past number of days the Office of the Data Protection Commissioner has received a large number of complaints in relation to a letter issued by British Sky Broadcasting Group regarding marketing preferences and an apparent alteration of the terms and conditions governing the use of personal data by British Sky Broadcasting Group. The notice is attached for information.
This unusual step is being taken in response to a notice issued by British Sky Broadcasting Group that is totally unacceptable from a data protection perspective. If implemented as outlined in their notice, a clear breach of the Data Protection Acts in this jurisdiction would result. The notice purports to provide a basis for the company to pass personal details among companies in the British Sky Broadcasting group and to other unnamed third party companies for direct marketing purposes, including by email and text message, unless the customer objects using a specified telephone number.
The Office of the Data Protection Commissioner has been in contact with British Sky Broadcasting Group pointing out that the letter is unacceptable and has asked the company to write to all customers in receipt of the notice in the next few days to clarify the position. The company have informed this Office that the communication was not intended to alter customers marketing preferences. A pre-recorded message has been placed on the company's customer service number and it is understood that an information notice for customers will shortly be placed on their website.
Data Protection Commissioner Billy Hawkes stated that "Irish Data Protection law provides strong protection to customers in terms of the use of their data for direct marketing purposes. I am determined that people's rights in this area will be respected. My Office will be following up with British Sky Broadcasting Group in the coming days to ensure that the rights enjoyed by Irish residents under the Data Protection Acts are fully understood and respected. "
"
---------- Post added at 08:29 ---------- Previous post was at 08:04 ----------
readers might find the CAG site an intersting read and perhaps useful for any legal advice and the options available to you as a consumer under the T&Cs/DPA etc
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/broadband-other-internet-issues/
MovedGoalPosts
22-02-2008, 10:12
The Data Protection Commissioner is the Republic of Eire body. The UK equivalent, I think is the Information Commissioner Office (ICO).
Uhhh. I can't believe this. :mad:
Sirius,
A cookie has limited capability so I see a possible way of this working as follows. This is based on the sequence to stop logging as outlined on the third party site.
VM will most probably have scanning equipment at the UBR or next step up and all customers are switched on by default. The relevant parts in the data stream are collected and logged against a user's number with collection on by default.
The way to opt out is to have a cookie from the third party site which is switched to monitoring off. The switch off can only be achieved by having the cookie loaded on the user's machine and actively going to the site and electing to switch off. The switch off facility is almost certainly going to session only with the cookie inactive (monitoring on) unless the visit and election for off is the first act by the customer on each session start. That would entail that if someone wishes to have the scanning off for most of the time then they would have to use the third party site as a home page and switch off at every session start.
The above opt in by default pretty well ensures that 99.99% of all customers are monitored all the time. Blocking cookies would under such a method only prevent the customer from using the switch off facility and the company's involved could easily say that customers that do so are opting to refuse the use of the opt out and scoring an own goal.
Personally I am not against profiling at all and use reward cards at some stores which, for a small financial incentive, allow my purchases to be categorised into demographic and wealth classed purchase patterns. I can pick and choose when to have the cards scanned and forfeit the rewards as I wish. If however my every move in the store was monitored by someone looking over my shoulder or a deal was struck with credit card companies to gain that information without reward or choice then I would never use such store again.
My biggest fear is something that I dismissed a few years ago as being over the top is on line fraud. Amongst friends and family I now know of a rapidly growing number of people who have had thousands stolen from cards and bank accounts via fraud. On the extremely rare occasions that the culprits have been caught, the source has been somebody in a position to see and extract from data streams. There have been numerous instances, over the past few months, of data protection violations and given that Government bodies and banks are cavalier with our details are we going to let some ad sharks look over our shoulders.
RizzyKing
22-02-2008, 14:15
I am not a huge fan of cookie's and feel they are a very double edged thing. I totally disagree to HAVING to put one or another on because VM want me to be a bigger cash cow then i am now. Sorry this is not an acceptable practice and it is not as though they have offered to lower costs to the subscriber they just assume we will happily continue along as they find a new way to make more money off us.
No most people will be unaware of it.
So, they will be spied upon in secret? It's interesting to note that if BT allowed external companies to monitor who their customers are phoning in this way, then there would probably be a mass outcry, and it would possibly be illegal.
The process is audited by a fairly reputable firm.
Andersen Consulting were a reputable firm. They were involved in the enron scandal..
If this scheme is above board, and is going to benefit the customer in some way, why have Virgin not advertised it more widely? Why is it an opt-out system rather than opt-in (which, last time I check was a violation of the 1998 Data Protection Act which requires that user has to opt in if he wants information stored for use by marketing companies).
Before you say they haven't advertised it widely because it is a trial, that's as may be, but they went on BBC TV and announced they were doing 50 meg before they had even started large scale trials.
Mick Fisher
22-02-2008, 20:59
I'm not trying to condone the action but Virgin media is a business and has to be as competitive as possible, network upgrades have to be paid for somehow.
Thanks for the clarification. While you are at it perhaps you could explain what VM do with all the monthly subscriptions. I naively thought that some of that might be put aside for reinvestment. :confused:
H'ok, so it's pretty much established that this is an unpopular move by VM. Before this thread loses its legs, it needs to move on or the chance of a collective response could be lost.
Anyone have any suggestions to discourage the deal? Most customers won't want to change ISP's (that could be frying pan and fire anyway) and individual complaints are less likely to have impact :erm: .
Thanks for the clarification. While you are at it perhaps you could explain what VM do with all the monthly subscriptions. I naively thought that some of that might be put aside for reinvestment. :confused:
No you and i who pay full wack are funding the "I am going to leave give me a deal types"
Mick Fisher
23-02-2008, 02:57
No you and i who pay full wack are funding the "I am going to leave give me a deal types"
Oh Yes, you are quite right of course. I forgot about that what with all this news of VM Spyware and Rootkits.
I am saddened by the news but not unduly surprised what with VM being what they are.
RizzyKing
23-02-2008, 11:55
Well way i look at it is i pay £37 a month for my internet if VM want to make money off that then they reduce my bill. I am not having any spyware on my pc so VM can make a few extra quid and i think that is what most people think.
Well way i look at it is i pay £37 a month for my internet if VM want to make money off that then they reduce my bill. I am not having any spyware on my pc so VM can make a few extra quid and i think that is what most people think.
Bang on :tu:
Well way i look at it is i pay £37 a month for my internet if VM want to make money off that then they reduce my bill. I am not having any spyware on my pc so VM can make a few extra quid and i think that is what most people think.
You hit the nail right on the head there mate!
:tu: :tu:
H'ok, so it's pretty much established that this is an unpopular move by VM. Before this thread loses its legs, it needs to move on or the chance of a collective response could be lost.
Anyone have any suggestions to discourage the deal? Most customers won't want to change ISP's (that could be frying pan and fire anyway) and individual complaints are less likely to have impact :erm: .
Are there likely to be any representations made to VM by the Cable Forum team?
I'm sure that comprehensive community support for the rejection of this idea would carry some weight, especially in light of the poll results so far.
Actually I'm not so sure, but you have to live in hope, don't you:)
RizzyKing,
I agree with your sentiment inasmuch as I pay £37 a month for a service which is mostly not worth the cost. I strongly object to being profiled for another chunk of profits for VM when they cannot even supply the base product properly.
You need not worry about spyware as according to "paidcontent:UK" it is a back end scanner located within ISP's. It will extract data from the data stream, allocate it to an anonymous number and profile that individual. All of the surfing habits from your IP will be captured and as that information is potentially of interest to many more people than advertisers we will all have to hope that there is no cloned modem on our IP and that we are not one of tens of thousands who have visitors on unsecured wireless routers.
I am normally not given to paranoia but when yesterday it was announced that for air travel within the UK that the government will require mobile phone numbers and credit card details for profiling purposes I am starting to seriously wonder what happened to trust and privacy. I really do think that this supposed ad tool has real potential to scan for "persons of interest" and that will not have escaped the attention of the paranoid ones in power.
How ironic that a few years ago communications interceptions were only granted by judges with belief of due cause and to organisations bound by the official secrets act. Now ISP's can intercept communications to pass on information for 30 pieces of silver.
RizzyKing,
I agree with your sentiment inasmuch as I pay £37 a month for a service which is mostly not worth the cost. I strongly object to being profiled for another chunk of profits for VM when they cannot even supply the base product properly.
You need not worry about spyware as according to "paidcontent:UK" it is a back end scanner located within ISP's. It will extract data from the data stream, allocate it to an anonymous number and profile that individual. All of the surfing habits from your IP will be captured and as that information is potentially of interest to many more people than advertisers we will all have to hope that there is no cloned modem on our IP and that we are not one of tens of thousands who have visitors on unsecured wireless routers.
I am normally not given to paranoia but when yesterday it was announced that for air travel within the UK that the government will require mobile phone numbers and credit card details for profiling purposes I am starting to seriously wonder what happened to trust and privacy. I really do think that this supposed ad tool has real potential to scan for "persons of interest" and that will not have escaped the attention of the paranoid ones in power.
How ironic that a few years ago communications interceptions were only granted by judges with belief of due cause and to organisations bound by the official secrets act. Now ISP's can intercept communications to pass on information for 30 pieces of silver.
The thing Is, what can WE, the paying customers do about all this anti-privacy nonesence?
I would've thought that the best way to save money in ANY business would be to somehow get the top dogs (that sit on their fat asses smoking all day) to take a pay reduction, how is such a high salary justified, what, just cos of the title (MD, snr manager etc) just like with the govenment, they get paid obscene amounts to screw up this country, IF they was forced to take a 10% pay decrease, just think how much more money woulod be availible for ESSENTIALS, such as schools, hospitals etc, but that is gettin slightly off-topic!
IF & WHEN this becomes policy, I will give VM 2 choices, STOP monitoring my internet usage OR lose my custom & incur a visit to the small claims court!
Are there likely to be any representations made to VM by the Cable Forum team?
Good question? The OP was an admin and 5 other admins have joined in the debate. Seems an ideal opportunity for the forum to represent users/customers.
MovedGoalPosts
24-02-2008, 12:08
There have been representations made, which has resulted in the specific update posts #77 and #102. If we hear of further developments these too will get reported although at present everything to do with this is based on very little solid information with neither Virgin or Phorm providing any real idea of when they intend this to start, or how it would work. Rest assured however that thread's like this, here and indeed on other forum's do, as a whole come to the attention of people at VM, where the strength of feeling being expressed can have an effect.
I hadn't realised Mick had contacted VM with his Cable Forum hat on, I had assumed it was as a disgruntled downtrodden VM customer.
Fair do's to the team. Keep up the good work:tu:
What is most shocking is that there are now 11 users who have voted they dont mind there data being sold to Phorm. :shocked:
What is most shocking is that there are now 11 users who have voted they dont mind there data being sold to Phorm. :shocked:
Technically is 10, I retracted my vote after more information was supplied about how Phorm appears to work.
Technically is 10, I retracted my vote after more information was supplied about how Phorm appears to work.
Good for you :) :tu:
The less that agree to this the better
What is most shocking is that there are now 11 users who have voted they dont mind there data being sold to Phorm. :shocked:
12 (-1 from Toto) that are happy to share their data - needless to say even with their odd choice, there are 95% who have voted don't want to share their data.
But as I said earlier the 11 voters would probably kick up a big fuss if we all camped out on their door step and or started watching their every move, in the house by looking through their windows, or watching them in the street.
moaningmags
24-02-2008, 19:54
Here's a thought.
5 comp's in my house all online, connecting through the router.
Husband on one comp.
17yr old daughter and myself using mine.
15yr old daughter on her comp.
12yr old daughter on her comp.
10yr old daughter on her comp.
Now, if my husband regularly surfs for porn, not saying he does,
I don't know and I don't care, he lives on WOW, but say he does.
If I'm into meeting guys to have wild sex or I surf the net looking
for vibrators, sex toys, edible lingerie. For the record, I'm not and I
don't.
If I haven't opted out and bear in mind we all connect through
the router,
Will my children be subjected to ads for vibrators and
big breasted Bertha putting on a show??????
How will they determine what ads go where?
Not even sure I understand it now...
Are they proposing to interfere with ads served by other sites, just how far reaching is this - after all, an ad-network can run with cookies, with no involvement of an ISP.
As for anti-phising, the "good" feature that this is using as a trojan horse to cajole support of their ad/spware activities, there are many other ways to implement that - IE7 has one built in. It seems like this means intercepting all traffic, a return to unreliable proxies?
Here's a thought.
5 comp's in my house all online, connecting through the router.
Husband on one comp.
17yr old daughter and myself using mine.
15yr old daughter on her comp.
12yr old daughter on her comp.
10yr old daughter on her comp.
Now, if my husband regularly surfs for porn, not saying he does,
I don't know and I don't care, he lives on WOW, but say he does.
If I'm into meeting guys to have wild sex or I surf the net looking
for vibrators, sex toys, edible lingerie. For the record, I'm not and I
don't.
If I haven't opted out and bear in mind we all connect through
the router,
Will my children be subjected to ads for vibrators and
big breasted Bertha putting on a show??????
How will they determine what ads go where?
Some very good points there. They will have no idea of the age of the person they are going to subject to these adverts. The company that Virgin will be selling its customers info to has not got the best reputation in the industry. In fact it would not surprise me one little bit that Phorm would not care who they sent adult adverts to as long as they make there money from it.
I can remember spending hours removing all the porn popups from one persons computer that was being served up night in night out by 121 media Aka Phorm.
Some very good points there. They will have no idea of the age of the person they are going to subject to these adverts. The company that Virgin will be selling its customers info to has not got the best reputation in the industry. In fact it would not surprise me one little bit that Phorm would not care who they sent adult adverts to as long as they make there money from it.
I can remember spending hours removing all the porn popups from one persons computer that was being served up night in night out by 121 media Aka Phorm.
It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it......... ;)
Here's a thought.
5 comp's in my house all online, connecting through the router.
Husband on one comp.
17yr old daughter and myself using mine.
15yr old daughter on her comp.
12yr old daughter on her comp.
10yr old daughter on her comp.
Now, if my husband regularly surfs for porn, not saying he does,
I don't know and I don't care, he lives on WOW, but say he does.
If I'm into meeting guys to have wild sex or I surf the net looking
for vibrators, sex toys, edible lingerie. For the record, I'm not and I
don't.
If I haven't opted out and bear in mind we all connect through
the router,
Will my children be subjected to ads for vibrators and
big breasted Bertha putting on a show??????
How will they determine what ads go where?
If you use multiple PCs, unless they have a method of determining what goes on behind a router (which, with some problems, is technically feasable), they won't. If you use one PC (wether with one user or seperate users for each family member), they won't be able to at all.
I would, of course, be happy to see technical details from Virgin or Phorm about how their system gets past this little problem (although I don't think it does), but I doubt I will.
Not even sure I understand it now...
Are they proposing to interfere with ads served by other sites, just how far reaching is this - after all, an ad-network can run with cookies, with no involvement of an ISP.
As for anti-phising, the "good" feature that this is using as a trojan horse to cajole support of their ad/spware activities, there are many other ways to implement that - IE7 has one built in. It seems like this means intercepting all traffic, a return to unreliable proxies?
It's also built into Google. If your google search turns up an undesirable site, I believe you get a query from Google as to whether you want to go to that site.
Back to browsers, Opera also has an anti-phising feature, and even if Firefox doesn't, I am sure someone has written an extension to enable it.
Not to mention anyone of a number of all in one "Internet Security" suites that offer this feature.
petersamson
24-02-2008, 22:27
I imagine (in response to multiple computers through NAT) it will become more and more the onus upon the account holder to defend themselves.
There will be a link to phorm to opt out completely and they will ask you to visit it on all devices that can access the internet so one users data doesn't cross over. There will be another link to contact a customer service operative for larger organisations on a case by case basis where they will block an IP from all adverts that are remote third party risky, but push through those from respected advertisers without using keywords, so a safe advert policy. Along with a requirement to renew this every 6 months say on a rolling basis.
To avoid every customer using this they can implement very strict filters on the sites you can visit through the phishing mechanism for your IP, so anything "rated 18" will be blocked and logged, then queried as to why you need an exception on this basis for your internet facing IP and a recommendation you switch back to the cookie method of opting out for individual devices.
There have been representations made, which has resulted in the specific update posts #77 and #102. If we hear of further developments these too will get reported although at present everything to do with this is based on very little solid information with neither Virgin or Phorm providing any real idea of when they intend this to start, or how it would work. Rest assured however that thread's like this, here and indeed on other forum's do, as a whole come to the attention of people at VM, where the strength of feeling being expressed can have an effect.
Thank you Rob (and the Cable Forum Team) :)
MovedGoalPosts
24-02-2008, 23:12
I imagine (in response to multiple computers through NAT) it will become more and more the onus upon the account holder to defend themselves.
There will be a link to phorm to opt out completely and they will ask you to visit it on all devices that can access the internet so one users data doesn't cross over. There will be another link to contact a customer service operative for larger organisations on a case by case basis where they will block an IP from all adverts that are remote third party risky, but push through those from respected advertisers without using keywords, so a safe advert policy. Along with a requirement to renew this every 6 months say on a rolling basis.
To avoid every customer using this they can implement very strict filters on the sites you can visit through the phishing mechanism for your IP, so anything "rated 18" will be blocked and logged, then queried as to why you need an exception on this basis for your internet facing IP and a recommendation you switch back to the cookie method of opting out for individual devices.
You seem to know a lot about the finer detail.
But why all the opt out stuff. This should be opt in, and certainly if you have opted out that's it, you should not have to go through that rigmarole every few months. Or is that a sneaky way of catching people back into the dodgy net?
Bottom line I do not want or accept this system as being something I want anywhere near my browsing habits. I do have nothing to hide. I just will not accept it. If brought in without a clear opt in policy that guarantees my privacy, Virgin Media will loose my custom.
---------- Post added at 23:12 ---------- Previous post was at 23:05 ----------
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/investing-and-markets/article.html?in_article_id=430955&in_page_id=3
He once flew wealthy business executives to the edges of space in Russian fighter jets for $10,000 a time. He offered people the chance to turn their life stories into CD-Roms. And he planted pop-up adverts in personal computers with sophisticated but notorious ' spyware'.
<snip>
Financial Mail has found that Ertugrul and his company were responsible for one of the most unpopular pieces of spyware software, PeopleOnPage, which once installed was difficult to shift.
Do you really trust someone with such a reputation anywhere near your privacy :(
I did my best to read through the posts, but I'm sorry if I missed one. My main concern is, is this technology going to be injecting things into our pages, even if we opt out?
That is to say, when I go to a website, I am no longer getting the original version of that website, but instead a page that has been processed by phorm and had their javascript code injected into it, then passed back onto me?
Furthermore, the information about the scam protection seems particularly worrying - that again, all our website requests are going through phorm and then to the server, then back through phorm and back to us - even if we opt out with the cookie, presumably this gross violation of privacy and annoying transparent proxy of forms will be in the way - the cookie will just tell it to skip the warning, but it's still all happening behind the scenes.
As phorm is so happy to say, this is on the ISP network, and thus I will no longer trust the Virgin Media ISP network - there doesn't seem to be any way out, and the opt out process certainly wont help
I imagine (in response to multiple computers through NAT) it will become more and more the onus upon the account holder to defend themselves.
It's going to cause a lot of family rows.. People have joked about the father in the family looking at porn, and the mother catching him, but what if it's something more serious? Not that I am suggesting for a second that Porn isn't serious.
A child suffering abuse from their father, then looking up advice on the Childline site, then the father logging on and getting ads for Child Protection stuff?
A daughter thinking she might be pregnant, going to various advice sites, looking up pregnancy testing kits, then another member of the family logging in and getting ads for pregnancy related stuff. I could go on with other examples, but you get the gist. Virgin's action could end up causing a lot of people a *lot* of problems.
As for all this "opt out" nonsense, I am not a lawyer, but that would appear to be a clear violation of the Data Protection Act 1998 which requires that users be offered the chance to opt *in* to (not out of) schemes such as these.
Simply put, this system stinks.
As for all this "opt out" nonsense, I am not a lawyer, but that would appear to be a clear violation of the Data Protection Act 1998 which requires that users be offered the chance to opt *in* to (not out of) schemes such as these.
Simply put, this system stinks.
It will be Opt Out for one reason
virgin Media will make
££££
Thats why.
It's going to cause a lot of family rows.. People have joked about the father in the family looking at porn, and the mother catching him, but what if it's something more serious? Not that I am suggesting for a second that Porn isn't serious.
A child suffering abuse from their father, then looking up advice on the Childline site, then the father logging on and getting ads for Child Protection stuff?
A daughter thinking she might be pregnant, going to various advice sites, looking up pregnancy testing kits, then another member of the family logging in and getting ads for pregnancy related stuff. I could go on with other examples, but you get the gist. Virgin's action could end up causing a lot of people a *lot* of problems.
As for all this "opt out" nonsense, I am not a lawyer, but that would appear to be a clear violation of the Data Protection Act 1998 which requires that users be offered the chance to opt *in* to (not out of) schemes such as these.
Simply put, this system stinks.
Can you imagine - expectant mother spends 9 months looking forward to their baby, researching, buying. Poor woman has a still born and gets ads for the next year or so offering baby products.
You're right Stu, it stinks.
melevittfl
25-02-2008, 14:58
There will be a link to phorm to opt out completely and they will ask you to visit it on all devices that can access the internet so one users data doesn't cross over. There will be another link to contact a customer service operative for larger organisations on a case by case basis where they will block an IP from all adverts that are remote third party risky, but push through those from respected advertisers without using keywords, so a safe advert policy. Along with a requirement to renew this every 6 months say on a rolling basis.
The issue is not about blocking the ads from getting through. The issue is them storing and collecting the surfing data in the first place.
And, I don't see why I should have to deal with Phorm. I am not a customer of Phorm, I don't have any relationship or contract with them.
It seems like Virgin Media are going to collect and send the data to Phorm regardless, but you'll be able to ask them not to target ads at you. That's not good enough.
The trail of URLs I visit in a day are easily analysed to determine my identity. This has already happened to AOL customers when AOL leaked their search queries.
It is up to Virgin Media to allow people to opt-in to this system, and, if they don't, to not collect the data in the first place.
brundles
25-02-2008, 15:08
El Reg (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/25/phorm_isp_advertising/) has finally gotten hold of this one too.
RizzyKing
25-02-2008, 16:30
VM might think they are going to make money out of this but i seriously urge them to rethink. I am not opting out of anything as i shouldn't be in anything in the first damn place. As for how it is going to work i don't give a damn as i didn't ask for it i don't want it and i shouldn't have to inconvinience myself dealing with it. VM seriously think about this or your going to lose a lot of customers.
VM might think they are going to make money out of this but i seriously urge them to rethink. I am not opting out of anything as i shouldn't be in anything in the first damn place. As for how it is going to work i don't give a damn as i didn't ask for it i don't want it and i shouldn't have to inconvinience myself dealing with it. VM seriously think about this or your going to lose a lot of customers.
Well, lets see what they plan to do, opt-in or opt-out. I don't think customer losses will be an issue, simply because there will be few places to go if this does go forward. What they may see though is a significant reduction in portal hits....THAT could potentially hit their advertising revenues.
Did you notice how much BT could make in 2010?
RizzyKing
25-02-2008, 17:10
Yeah i noticed and know damn well thats the reason this is being done. But the fact remains no one should have to "opt out" of whatever little scheme they want to try.
Yeah i noticed and know damn well thats the reason this is being done. But the fact remains no one should have to "opt out" of whatever little scheme they want to try.
£££££Â £Â£Â£Â£Â£Â£ ‚£ will ensure that you WILL have to op out of there SPYWARE system
RizzyKing
25-02-2008, 17:55
Sadly yes and i don't trust them for one minute to abide by any opt out i mean not being funny how the hell will we know if our surfing is still being harvested. That's the crux here and VM have put that doubt into my head massively affecting how i will regard VM in future job well done there on me at least.
Spoke to The Information Commissioner's Office - http://www.ico.gov.uk/ and they say they are 'looking into it'. You can ring them on 01625 545 745, so at least the powers at be are aware of current events.
So until this story fully unfolds my advice would be to use TOR - http://www.torproject.org/ and take back the some of that privacy and anonymity that our ISP's have so 'kindly' tossed into the bin!
georgepomone
26-02-2008, 16:29
Hi All,
I see one or two comments about opting out. Where is it said there will be any options.Just asking a question because those of us who have been with ntl aka VirginMedia for any length of time know that any give and take is always to their advantage. Plus I saw somewhere that it wasn,t just VirginMedia talking to this company, BT were there as well.
George.
---------- Post added at 16:29 ---------- Previous post was at 16:19 ----------
Sorry,
I,ve just read the article on The Register and it answers the question I was asking. It is a disgrace really. It just means we will have to watch just what is happening more in the future.
As I say, sorry I should have read more closely.
George.
Spoke to The Information Commissioner's Office - http://www.ico.gov.uk/ and they say they are 'looking into it'. You can ring them on 01625 545 745, so at least the powers at be are aware of current events.
Thanks for this - Keep us updated with any information you get back from them, infact if more people phoned up to complain the better.
Spoke to The Information Commissioner's Office - http://www.ico.gov.uk/ and they say they are 'looking into it'. You can ring them on 01625 545 745, so at least the powers at be are aware of current events.
So until this story fully unfolds my advice would be to use TOR - http://www.torproject.org/ and take back the some of that privacy and anonymity that our ISP's have so 'kindly' tossed into the bin!
Nice one. I have just installed TOR :tu:
There is an incredible irony in the stance UK ISP's take which looks like double standards in the extreme. The government has charged ISP's with the task of stamping out file theft (music and video) by early 2009 and the ISP's respond with their age old argument by drawing an analogy with the post office and claiming that they cannot look inside those packets to determine contents. It is a good analogy inasmuch as it takes a judge to sign off on mail interception but I suspect the motivation is not privacy related but cost related with no reward.
However when there is a carrot of a good little earner for spying on customers and intercepting surfing patterns it would appear that the Post Office analogy falls down. If our letters were opened and some advertising spam stuffed inside commensurate with the contents I dare say that the outcry would give the perpetrators a business lifespan of hours.
I see that from the reports linked within this thread that BT is expected to make £85 million by 2009. On the basis of BT's turnover (billions) that is a pathetic little sum and hardly worth the effort if there is a risk of seriously upsetting customers. Therein lies a point of interest which I will never forget and that was the comment from a senior director or CEO of NTL when it was stated that customers are confusing bits with bytes, kilos with megas etc which all basically added up to an insult aimed at the customer base which implied that they are all unsophisticated Joe six-packs.
The ADSL ISP I also use has a mainly business orientated client base and they would know for sure that a stunt like this would turn them into an ex-ISP in very short order. This prospective invasion of privacy is IMO an act of contempt against the customers and displays pretty well how we are valued.
I sincerely hope that this forum has more clout than the numbers of members because a few hundred votes in a group of 10K will be treated with derision against a customer base of millions by upper management.
Thanks for this - Keep us updated with any information you get back from them
Will do, although I was informed that any updates on this issue would be posted via their website, Im assuming they mean via their e-newsletter & alerts - http://www.ico.gov.uk/tools_and_resources/enewsletter_and_alerts.aspx
infact if more people phoned up to complain the better.
Totally agree. The more people that ring up and complain the more chance there is that the ICO will resolve this whole debacle, either one way or the other. That number again is 01625 545 745. You can also complain via letter using THIS (http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/library/data_protection/practical_application/dp_how_to_complain_final.pdf) prepared form if you so wish. More info here - http://www.ico.gov.uk/complaints/data_protection.aspx
Nice one. I have just installed TOR
Good stuff. I know it can be painfully slow at times, but can’t complain as it is after all free \o/
FAQ added in post 1 and News item updated to reflect recently posted information in this thread.
Daveoc64
26-02-2008, 20:13
I strongly dislike the idea, purely because it means that all websites will have to be screened and edited to suit the ISP's system.
Also, presumably it will filter out ads on sites (such as this one), replacing them with generic ads taking revenue away from those sites.
Plus I can see it being unreliable and targeting things that look like ads, but aren't.
Also, the opt out system is woefully inadequate. I use several computers and browsers and cookies are frequently cleared.
Curious, how does TOR (The Onion Router) preserve my privacy when all it is is a glorified NAT or Proxy. Phorm say that they don't collect IP information, so how does TOR fit into the equation?
Daveoc64
26-02-2008, 20:34
Curious, how does TOR (The Onion Router) preserve my privacy when all it is is a glorified NAT or Proxy. Phorm say that they don't collect IP information, so how does TOR fit into the equation?
Presumably anyone using that service would have their data mixed up with other people's data so it would be much harder to link the usage data with a specific person.
Presumably anyone using that service would have their data mixed up with other people's data so it would be much harder to link the usage data with a specific person.
OK, makes sense then.
Can't find it anywhere, so apologies if the following link has been posted: Someone has set up a site about the Phorm system (basically pointing out how it works and why it's a bad idea) and there is an accompanying forum: http://www.badphorm.co.uk
As far as I can see TOR cannot do any good whatsoever if the scanning mechanism is located within VM's network. If packets cannot be seen or identified by VM and routed to the originating IP then you have no internet. If the scanner is located where it can see your IP packets, within VM's network, then it doesn't matter if you have been around the world hopping anonymously from node to node because your packets ain't coming back if VM cannot route them and anything looking over VM's equipment's shoulder can see what you see.
I do not think privacy advocates ever thought that people's own ISP's would fit spying equipment which is about as difficult to protect against as having someone sitting beside you reading your screen.
With regard to this issue and whether there are applications (out there) to circumvent the system - TOR being discussed. I believe (for Firefox users) there already is an extension to tackle this particular issue, namely TrackMeNot.
To quote from the representative extension website: "TrackMeNot is a lightweight browser extension that helps protect web searchers from surveillance and data-profiling by search engines. It does so not by means of concealment or encryption (i.e. covering one's tracks), but instead, paradoxically, by the opposite strategy: noise and obfuscation. With TrackMeNot, actual web searches, lost in a cloud of false leads, are essentially hidden in plain view. User-installed TrackMeNot works with the Firefox Browser and popular search engines (AOL, Yahoo!, Google, and MSN) and requires no 3rd-party servers or services."
Forgive me if this has already been suggested, but I couldn't bring anything up in the searches, anyway it's (at least) worth a try.;)
Si thee
There’s a really well written complaints template HERE (http://www.badphorm.co.uk/download.php?list.2). Download it, print it, post it, exercise your right to complain to Virgin about this gross invasion of our privacy.
As far as I can see TOR cannot do any good whatsoever if the scanning mechanism is located within VM's network.
Until more is known about how exactly our clickstream data is being passed to this third party, I would still recommend using TOR as it certainly can do no harm, and will quite possibly provide some degree of privacy and anonymity for those that want it.
melevittfl
27-02-2008, 09:03
As far as I can see TOR cannot do any good whatsoever if the scanning mechanism is located within VM's network.
I do not think privacy advocates ever thought that people's own ISP's would fit spying equipment which is about as difficult to protect against as having someone sitting beside you reading your screen.
No, TOR would work to defeat this.
A TCP/IP packet is made up of header information (where the packet came from and where it's going) + data. Yes, the ISP can see that packets containing data are travelling from your machine to another machine on the Internet. But each packet contains data that is encrypted.
TOR is a "network on top of a network". The packets enter the TOR network on your system and exit on a random system somewhere else, encrypted on the way. So, they won't be able to see which website your visiting because all they will see if encrypted packets passing over their network. And, even if they see the packets leaving the TOR network, they won't know where the packets originally came from.
TOR actually was designed with the idea that the ISP might be spying on people, where ISP equals the government.
No, TOR would work to defeat this.
A TCP/IP packet is made up of header information (where the packet came from and where it's going) + data. Yes, the ISP can see that packets containing data are travelling from your machine to another machine on the Internet. But each packet contains data that is encrypted.
TOR is a "network on top of a network". The packets enter the TOR network on your system and exit on a random system somewhere else, encrypted on the way. So, they won't be able to see which website your visiting because all they will see if encrypted packets passing over their network. And, even if they see the packets leaving the TOR network, they won't know where the packets originally came from.
TOR actually was designed with the idea that the ISP might be spying on people, where ISP equals the government.
great explanation :) , hopefully that should help set some worrying minds at rest.
Melevifftl,
Yes I am wrong in my assumptions. I have read the Tor documentation and it does look as though Tor will provide privacy against ad spies even within VM's network.
I have tried Tor albeit a long time ago when it was discussed in a American forum's security section. The package to run Tor appears to require Privoxy + Tor + within Firefox Switchproxy (to turn it on\off). Times may have changed but because it was so slow, back then, that I uninstalled it all within hours.
In the past my interest in privacy add ons was primarily curiosity but with the levels of online financial transactions climbing towards becoming the norm for almost all such transactions, privacy is becoming essential. It never fails to surprise me just how much information is required for an online transaction before a secure server (https) is switched and the padlock closes.
Thanks to the poster on Trackmenot. As that just constantly sends queries to multiple search engines whilst Firefox is open it strikes me as though a search engine owner could consider the product and user as maliciously adding to a flooding of their system. I will not use the product but thanks for the info.
TheBlueRaja
27-02-2008, 13:04
Another reason to dump VM, when will people learn.
Another reason to dump VM, when will people learn.
However, BT and Carphone Warehouse are already trialling, with Sky considering it.
TheBlueRaja
27-02-2008, 14:33
However, BT and Carphone Warehouse are already trialling, with Sky considering it.
Source? (Sky considering that is).
I would also like to know the source.
Actually it makes sense for Sky to consider and reject. If and when there is a data leak scandal it would give them both the opportunity and ability through press associations to exploit the scandal fully with a told you so added angle.
According to El Reg: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/27/bt_phorm_121media_summer_2007/
BT have been doing this as early as last summer in secret... Makes for interesting reading
Edit: According to The Reg, Phorm have or are approaching all UK ISPs to get them to sign them up for this...
TheBlueRaja
27-02-2008, 17:29
According to El Reg: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/27/bt_phorm_121media_summer_2007/
BT have been doing this as early as last summer in secret... Makes for interesting reading
Edit: According to The Reg, Phorm have or are approaching all UK ISPs to get them to sign them up for this...
That is a hell of a difference from "Sky are considering it" though (assuming that's what your edit refers too after Stuart C's comment.)
I get salesman at the door sometimes but it doesn't mean i consider buying anything.
That is a hell of a difference from "Sky are considering it" though (assuming that's what your edit refers too after Stuart C's comment.)
No it doesn't. But let's say they might consider it, that would be *another* reason for you to ditch them and then perhaps you can 'learn' with the rest of us can't you?, as you put it earlier.
That is a hell of a difference from "Sky are considering it" though (assuming that's what your edit refers too after Stuart C's comment.)
I get salesman at the door sometimes but it doesn't mean i consider buying anything.
Indeed, I don't think Sky are that daft.....that said though they make hardly anything from their BB products, so they may well see it as a viable option if the current uproar dies down.
I WILL dump virgin for ALL my products if this goes ahead and is OPT OUT not OPT IN, However if BT have been selling private data without informing there customers then i would not put it past Virgin to do that as well ?
Indeed, I don't think Sky are that daft.....that said though they make hardly anything from their BB products, so they may well see it as a viable option if the current uproar dies down.
I don't think it will die down unless one of several things happen..
Virgin Media announce they are not to commence any form of data tracking analysis and then sell this information on to a third party for further monetary gain.
If they do announce that they are doing this or some form of information comes out that they have commenced it, they need to apply the option that this is an 'Opt in' facility and not an 'Opt out' one.
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