View Full Version : [Merged]New Upload Shaped Trial
TraxData
19-10-2007, 18:56
Hi,
As im sure some of you VM employees found out today, VM are to implement STM on upload as well as download now, the trials currently run in preston and are being fully implemented in january 2008 across the VM Network.
If any of you manage to catch the alex brown thread on the early hours of last night before he started deleting any topic related to it, you already know what the limits are going to be.
As it is currently a trial they don't need to change their communications about STM..*sigh* But when the roll this out nationally and they will.. The comms will change to let everyone know the score.
Not sure of the upstream limits but understand that for 20Mbit Tier it is more than 1GB of Upload between 1600-2100 and then your shaped down to 5mbit/128kup (yes 128kup)
Bye Bye VM, you have finally managed to lose my custom, including my businesses as well.
I dread to think how they can further cripple the lower tiers.
Are they actively trying to drive customers away?
Hi,
As im sure some of you VM employees found out today, VM are to implement STM on upload as well as download now, the trials currently run in preston and are being fully implemented in january 2008 across the VM Network.
If any of you manage to catch the alex brown thread on the early hours of last night before he started deleting any topic related to it, you already know what the limits are going to be.
As it is currently a trial they don't need to change their communications about STM..*sigh* But when the roll this out nationally and they will.. The comms will change to let everyone know the score.
Not sure of the upstream limits but understand that for 20Mbit Tier it is more than 1GB of Upload between 1600-2100 and then your shaped down to 5mbit/128kup (yes 128kup)
Bye Bye VM, you have finally managed to lose my custom, including my businesses as well.
Be-there broadband here we all come :)
Loads of vm customers including me will be switching over to these.
What are they thinking?
Idiots i officially hate vm.
Foo Fighter
19-10-2007, 19:57
Agreed as if my pezzy expensive 1mb can go any slower, VM you suck!
papa smurf
19-10-2007, 20:05
well so much for the information super highway
Nedkelly
19-10-2007, 20:07
They do know how to p**s people off :mad:
kryogenik
19-10-2007, 20:14
This sounds terrible.
:(
Can someone tell me how this will affect people and why.
I only ask as I'm not a gamer (and I presume this is where people will feel it?) and I only upload here and there to servers - a 1GB upload still seems massive to me, but it's quite obviously a big concern to some - I'm only curious to learn why, I'm not advocating it in any way.
MovedGoalPosts
19-10-2007, 20:25
In some respects shaping the upload makes sense. We were after all always being told that upload was the more limited resource. One of the reasons no doubt why the upload speed is such a poor ratio to the download.
I dunno how it is likely to affect people who need good pings from things like gaming.
What it will do is drive away anyone who relies on torrent sites, especially those that insist a good upload to download ratio is required. With poor upload to download speed ratios anyway, you effectively need to be uploading through peak hours just to get anywhere. So OK it brings out all the old arguments of capping and shaping and no doubt many will see this as a good thing to get rid of the heavier users.
The point must be though, when will VM accept people want to use their broadband connection in the "unlimited" speed that they advertise. When will they invest properly in a robust network with adequate capacity that can serve the customers, rather than penny pinching measures that simply paper over the cracks?
DocDutch
19-10-2007, 20:30
if this is going to be implemented in the network then I will leave as it is now getting beyond fun.
Virgin Media are fast becoming a complete and utter joke. Who the hell have they been listening to in there broadband division. I am not sure which planet they are on or what they are smoking but they need to wake up and smell the coffee before they lose customers faster than British gas did :mad:
saabmania2
19-10-2007, 21:04
if this is going to be implemented in the network then I will leave as it is now getting beyond fun.
Well i think you will have to join the queue now and you might have a long wait to get to the front of it :D i have spokern to loads of friends down here that have virgin and they have all said the same.
so it might be time to say goodbye to virgin/ntl i've had 11 good years as a cable customer but if there going to play this game expect to lose lots and lots of customers someone has got to do something about virginmedia otherwise i can see them going down the pan in the next 5 years or being taken over by sky now wouldn't that be funny:angel:
---------- Post added at 21:04 ---------- Previous post was at 20:57 ----------
Virgin Media are fast becoming a complete and utter joke. Who the hell have they been listening to in there broadband division. I am not sure which planet they are on or what they are smoking but they need to wake up and smell the coffee before they lose customers faster than British gas did :mad:
perhaps virgin will be the only other company in the world (apart from british gas) to make a negitive profit.rofl :rofl:
Mr Angry
19-10-2007, 21:08
Firstly they introduced the shaping because of a naughty 5% of people abusing the network - that worked wonders, not. Now they are apparently rolling out / testing upload management to try and further reduce the excessive burden on their network.
WAKE UP Virgin Media!! There are thousands of people STEALING your services and you don't appear too concerned about the fact. Perhaps it would be a good idea if you were to start a campaign of proactive visible pursuit and punishment of them before you start taking the p**s by further reducing / limiting the services of legal paying customers with this inane nonsense about network congestion and over subscription / abuse.
I may be Angry, but I'm not stupid.
Get the finger out and address the theft issue before you start punishing and reducing the services of those who are the core / backbone of your turnover.
I'd like to offer this by way of assistance / a starting point;
Ebay notice of infringement (http://pages.ebay.co.uk/vero/notice.html)
Have a little look around ebay and I'm sure, if you can be bothered, that you'll see there are various methods available to you to curtail the rampant spread / sale of these modems which are killing your network and, in turn, causing paying customers to desert you in droves.
Cheers.
zing_deleted
19-10-2007, 21:10
Well it will be a change in terms and conditions and therefore a way out of a contract so let them do it. I personally do not upload even nearly that amount as I do not share media or upload to usenet so ill not get capped for upload however I will be pleased with a way out of a contract :)
homealone
19-10-2007, 21:11
In some respects shaping the upload makes sense. We were after all always being told that upload was the more limited resource. One of the reasons no doubt why the upload speed is such a poor ratio to the download.
I dunno how it is likely to affect people who need good pings from things like gaming.
What it will do is drive away anyone who relies on torrent sites, especially those that insist a good upload to download ratio is required. With poor upload to download speed ratios anyway, you effectively need to be uploading through peak hours just to get anywhere. So OK it brings out all the old arguments of capping and shaping and no doubt many will see this as a good thing to get rid of the heavier users.
The point must be though, when will VM accept people want to use their broadband connection in the "unlimited" speed that they advertise. When will they invest properly in a robust network with adequate capacity that can serve the customers, rather than penny pinching measures that simply paper over the cracks?
I agree with all the points you made, there, Rob.
For someone like me, not a gamer, who uses newsgroups not torrents, on only a 4Mb connection, it isn't going to have an huge effect.
But I can see that anyone with a faster connection, who games, possibly hosts, & uses torrents, will be very badly affected.....
So the point about investing in the network, rather than upsetting the customers is moot :)
just when i thought it could not get any worse.:td:
They can take the trials and shove it, and there planning on 50mb in some areas? with the money I will save from leaving VM I could probably move to Sweden and get 100mb/100mb.
True Broadband
gaffer_gump
19-10-2007, 21:36
If this happens it wouldn't be good for me as I run a tidy little fserv, I would be better off dropping down to the lowest speed and maybe have eBay as my next ISP.. :Yikes:
As P2P slowly turns legit (eg. Bittorrent legit downloads), cable turns to crap.
Mind you, the counter argument to P2P powered services, they don't SOLVE the server bandwidth issues, they merely MOVE them.
alferret
19-10-2007, 22:15
Like Homealone I dont use torrents and like many others I dont upload to usenet.
STM doesnt affect me and my usage of my bandwidth and its limitations and when upload STM is rolled out it still wont affect me.
one advantage of this is that in theory it should make the latency better at peak times so it will help the gamers... the torrent users are stuffed though
Uncle Peter
19-10-2007, 23:07
This should make interesting reading on El Reg as and when it happens
Mick Fisher
19-10-2007, 23:42
Like Homealone I dont use torrents and like many others I dont upload to usenet.
STM doesnt affect me and my usage of my bandwidth and its limitations and when upload STM is rolled out it still wont affect me.
Ditto that, but I think I will still take great delight in dumping what has become a grubby money grabbing Company which is unwilling or unable to deliver what it charges top dollar for.
Somebody said 5 years for VM to fold, well as they have always maintained the BB was the only service that they made money on I think that hearing this latest news that may be a tad optomistic.
I don't think Sky would bother to take them over, Tiscali would probably be a better guess. :)
Any truth in this........? ? ?
Virgin Media are now implementing traffic shaping (STM) on both
UPLOAD and DOWNLOAD although it is currently being trailed in Preston it has
been confirmed that by January 2008 it will be rolled out to the whole
country.
As it is currently a trial they don't need to to make any changes to their
terms and conditions about STM.
However once this has been rolled out nationally it will be updated on the
Virgin Media website and indeed on their terms and conditions.
Currently there hasn't been any confirmed figures before the shaping comes
into effect but it is thought to be around 5mbit Down and 128k Up
anyone done the maths yet?
1gb in 5hours = 204mb/hour
= 3.4mb/minute
= 60kb/second
now who does 60k/s for 5hours straight?
on second thoughts, the OP is known to twist things against VM so the above calculations can be taken as a worst case scenario
TraxData
20-10-2007, 01:07
anyone done the maths yet?
1gb in 5hours = 204mb/hour
= 3.4mb/minute
= 60kb/second
now who does 60k/s for 5hours straight?
on second thoughts, the OP is known to twist things against VM so the above calculations can be taken as a worst case scenario
Twist things? uh huh ok then, just like time and time again, when it happens you'll pretend i never told anyone. :)
Please i warned cloners about the new trials being in place to stop them, they wouldnt listen either, and now a few of them have been arrested :)
Twist things? uh huh ok then, just like time and time again, when it happens you'll pretend i never told anyone. :)
Please i warned cloners about the new trials being in place to stop them, they wouldnt listen either, and now a few of them have been arrested :)
so who does 60k/s+ for 5 hours then?
on 20mb, you can upload around 1.5gb of data in the quoted timescale at maximum speeds. so 1gb+ in the quoted timescale isn't exactly light usage now is it?
TraxData
20-10-2007, 01:16
so who does 60k/s+ for 5 hours then?
on 20mb, you can upload around 1.5gb of data in the quoted timescale at maximum speeds. so 1gb+ in the quoted timescale isn't exactly light usage now is it?
It isnt? tv streaming anyone? legal torrenting anyone? i can think of plenty of legal and normal reasons to use that much upload for so long tyvm.
Alot of companies now use p2p/torrents for demos etc so people share, 1.5gig is very light in this day and age.
Guess your one of those who pays for a premium package just to view emails quicker?
It isnt? tv streaming anyone? legal torrenting anyone? i can think of plenty of legal and normal reasons to use that much upload for so long tyvm.
Alot of companies now use p2p/torrents for demos etc so people share, 1.5gig is very light in this day and age.
Guess your one of those who pays for a premium package just to view emails quicker?
we are talking about upload right? tv streaming takes next to nothing of upload.
lets go back to the original post:
Not sure of the upstream limits but understand that for 20Mbit Tier it is more than 1GB of Upload between 1600-2100 and then your shaped down to 5mbit/128kup (yes 128kup)
yep its upload, ok. for those 5 hours on 20mb service:
upload: 1.6gb
supposed upload limit: 1gb = 62.5% maximum
how is 62.5% considered light usage?
Not much of a 20mb service lol.
This will be the straw that breaks it for gamers imo vm will have it rough next year and its all there own doing i smell a shift in isp's again.
Not much of a 20mb service lol.
This will be the straw that breaks it for gamers imo vm will have it rough next year and its all there own doing i smell a shift in isp's again.
i'm sure there are thousands of gamers that upload more than 1gb in a 5 hour period :rolleyes:
slowcoach
20-10-2007, 03:29
i'm sure there are thousands of gamers that upload more than 1gb in a 5 hour period :rolleyes:
>>> BBC iPlayer, the future is here.
Let's not forget that the lower tiers will probably get hit even harder as usual.
Let's also not forget that Vampires are unaffected, sleep all day upload/download all night, simple really.
Anyone know when the price reduction for existing XL BB customers kicks in, £28ppm in case you haven't seen the NEW customer offer.
Broadband from cable was in my eyes the Rolls Royce (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_%28car%29) of Broadband connections, Then came along Virgin and turned it into a Trabant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabant)
xspeedyx
20-10-2007, 08:48
o well heres comes the furture of downloading looks like I need to start using irc or newsgroups bye bye torrents u will be missed
Trax, where did you get this info?
i blame torrent users, and i'm glad VM are doing something about it, won't effect your average legal torrent users but it sure upset them 24/7 users.
Good
Dont blame torrent users everything was fine and dandy under 10mb its just the rollout of this crappo 20mb and vm's shaky network there not putting money in to stabilise it so now they ripped our eyes out with shaping come jan there going to take our sockets too.
ECW_Original
20-10-2007, 10:54
i blame torrent users, and i'm glad VM are doing something about it, won't effect your average legal torrent users but it sure upset them 24/7 users.
Good
IF you really want someone to blame, blame VM, or even better still, blame the thieving scumbags with their cloned modems, this is THEIR doing, nobody elses!
And if VM think this will stop them, then VM have another thing coming and maybe even a few law-suits to boot too!
i blame torrent users, and I'm glad VM are doing something about it, won't effect your average legal torrent users but it sure upset them 24/7 users.
Good
I dont use torrents, Far to easy for the Riaa and the Mpaa to get your ip"and you are not safe on private trackers". I use Newsgroups which are still not safe but safer than torrents and in my opinion far less harmful to the type of network cable have.
I still do not agree with what they are going to do. If you pay for a connection at x speed you should get that speed give or take a bit for congestion and other factors, What you should not get is a speed reduced on purpose by the company that are changing you full price, If they want to introduce this then i for one want a record emailing to me each time they have put me on the lower speed and a mrtg graph showing when i exceeded the limit and at what time that limit was lifted. They MUST have that data to be able to slow you so it goes that they should have to produce the data each time they reduce your speed.
I think the next time it happens i might start to ask for the data, And keep demanding till they send me it.
Of course this would not be needed if VM got off their fat arses and dealt with the thieving **** bag cloners But then that would cost money :rolleyes:
VM you are starting to suck worse than a sucky thing from the planet suck
---------- Post added at 11:16 ---------- Previous post was at 10:56 ----------
Trax, where did you get this info?
I would like to know that as well
i'm sure there are thousands of gamers that upload more than 1gb in a 5 hour period :rolleyes:
i doubt that very much, back in the day when i could be bothered to monitor things online gameing was very light on the upload, gaming reqs low latency not massive bandwidth up or down....im not defending this action by the way its just that imo it will aid gamers and stuff torrent users
just re-read your post didnt notice the sarcasm on the end ...sorry!!
This probably wont bother me, as i hardly ever upload things, and am an occasional torrent user. I dont even play graphical online games, i use the internet for email, surfing, and playing online text games (MUD), which from what i can gather use little to no bandwidth.
While i understand this is virgin limiting their service for several users, i do see where they re coming from with this trial, as there are some greedy people out there who are running servers on their residential accounts, downloading loads and loads of stuff from torrents, and pretty much taking all the available bandwidth.
Before i'm lynched, I want to make it clear I am not defending VM here...
But... At least they are upfront about STM (or will be when they implement upload STM).
Some cable users in the US aren't so lucky:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/10/20/comcast_denies_bittorrent_busting_again/
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/10/19/1417238
Mr Angry
20-10-2007, 12:39
I think the one comment on the Reg article is rather pertinent.
"The trend of malware being used to directly affect what a person can do with a purchased product is beyond incredulous. This reminds me of the companies of yesteryear advertising "DDT is good for Me!!!" and putting Lead into petrol.. I presume those used similar language to say it "enhanced the end user experience" We do have laws which protect our individual rights. The problem is that when dealing with something that can be abstracted with terminology like the hi-tech industry, medicine etc a Judge or Jury can be easily fooled into making the wrong decision.
People need to become informed, and not hand over their rights so easily to corporate entities. Just because they are interfering with the digital rather than the analogue does not create a new precedent where law need not apply. If they were interfering with your phone line, I don't believe you would be so lax.
Boycott this company and make it unprofitable for them to interfere with your online freedom."
zing_deleted
20-10-2007, 12:42
Before i'm lynched, I want to make it clear I am not defending VM here...
But... At least they are upfront about STM (or will be when they implement upload STM).
Some cable users in the US aren't so lucky:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/10/20/comcast_denies_bittorrent_busting_again/
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/10/19/1417238
I actually understand and agree with STM my view is clear all over the forums.My problem with VM is they have continued being backhanded in other areas and continue to shoot themselves in the foot and bring in new terms that are at the detriment to the customer rather than for the benefit of most like STM is imo
I actually understand and agree with STM my view is clear all over the forums.My problem with VM is they have continued being backhanded in other areas and continue to shoot themselves in the foot and bring in new terms that are at the detriment to the customer rather than for the benefit of most like STM is imo
i agree with the STM theory and disagree when it is used with stupidly low limits, however 1gb of upload in 5hours? that is 58.25k/s:
58.25k/s = 61% of the available upload speed (ignoring any packet headers etc)
61% of the download speed = 1561k/s
in 5hours you could then do: 27gb
in the current 8 hour STM slot that is: 42.9gb
that 42.9gb is 14.3 times more than we can do now via STM
so to those saying VM have no killed cable, why are you still on VM when there is an STM policy 14 times WORSE than the one coming in which you claim is killing cable and makes you want to leave?
so percentage speaking, the upload "cap" is
Our upload for size M may become atom sized!
According to Mr Ambit the Modem:
Maximum Upstream Data Rate : 200000 bps
That amounts to a theoretical 25kB/s
In practice I get about 5kB/s when uploading. Now, lets say VM were to half that in the STM.
Maximum Upstream Data Rate : 100000 bps
That amounts to a theoretical 12kB/s
In practice I get about a 5th of that, which is 2.4kB/s
Hurray, on V.92 I should get 6kB/s!
Mr Angry
20-10-2007, 14:47
With all due respect folks there's an awful lot of theoretical issues being brought up in this thread which are network and congestion dependant.
I think one important point which needs to be discussed is why VM are proposing to impose further restrictions on their users and how they arrived at that decision.
My understanding is that the network is under severe pressure since the rollout of the 20mb upgrades. Not necessarily because it is oversubscribed* - but I'd be pretty sure that the high volume of people who are using VM's bandwidth illegally by using cloned modems / paying customers MAC addresses has played a major part in this decision.
Ask yourself this, how can VM be in a position to make a well informed unilateral decision on the matter of restricting download / upload speeds when the very data upon which they base such decisions, which affect paying customers, is quite obviously distorted by the activities of cloned modem users?
If we are to be expected to believe VM's rationale that this is a fair and just method to ensure optimum web browsing for all (based on the assumption that "all" means "all paying customers") then we'd have to assume that they consider their data to be totally accurate and verifiable.
That being the case then they must be able to distinguish cloned modem activity from lawful modem activity - otherwise something is very, very wrong with this proposal if they can't / haven't.
One would have to wonder why they would consider their customer base would be happy to have their services restricted / reduced because of the illegal acquisition of those very same services by others.
* meaning "paying customers".
With all due respect folks there's an awful lot of theoretical issues being brought up in this thread which are network and congestion dependant.
I think one important point which needs to be discussed is why VM are proposing to impose further restrictions on their users and how they arrived at that decision.
My understanding is that the network is under severe pressure since the rollout of the 20mb upgrades. Not necessarily because it is oversubscribed* - but I'd be pretty sure that the high volume of people who are using VM's bandwidth illegally by using cloned modems / paying customers MAC addresses has played a major part in this decision.
Ask yourself this, how can VM be in a position to make a well informed unilateral decision on the matter of restricting download / upload speeds when the very data upon which they base such decisions, which affect paying customers, is quite obviously distorted by the activities of cloned modem users?
If we are to be expected to believe VM's rationale that this is a fair and just method to ensure optimum web browsing for all (based on the assumption that "all" means "all paying customers") then we'd have to assume that they consider their data to be totally accurate.
That being the case then they must be able to distinguish cloned modem activity from lawful modem activity - otherwise something is very, very wrong with this proposal if they can't / haven't.
* meaning "paying customers".
I have nothing wrong with them STMing the upload if it's going to help, its just when you have little to start with, its quite evil to split it up further.
Mr Angry
20-10-2007, 14:56
I have nothing wrong with them STMing the upload if it's going to help, its just when you have little to start with, its quite evil to split it up further.
So, you see nothing wrong with having your services restricted as a result of the behaviour of others?
So, you see nothing wrong with having your services restricted as a result of the behaviour of others?
that is a valid arument but it is also applied to all walks of life not just broadband
By others are you referring to the XL users, or clones?
If your on about XL users, its not their fault, its VMs, and they should do anything possible to resolve the issue.
If its clones, I hope the police get them.
I have no problem with it if its going to improve the service (e.g. clean up bandwidth bottlenecks), but if its just being done for the hell of it, then there is a problem.
that is a valid arument but it is also applied to all walks of life not just broadband
Yep, its the Suspect Everybody, Trust Nobody idea.
Mr Angry
20-10-2007, 15:36
By others are you referring to the XL users, or clones?
I would have thought that I made the clear distinction between paying customers and those who obtain the services illegally.
If your on about XL users, its not their fault, its VMs, and they should do anything possible to resolve the issue.
My point exactly.
If its clones, I hope the police get them.
Highly unlikely since VM don't, despite glaring evidence to the contrary, believe that cloning exists. The police are hardly going to arrest someone for a crime that the service provider doesn't think exists, are they? No. Instead paying customers on all tiers will suffer reduced services as a result of theft by others.
I have no problem with it if its going to improve the service (e.g. clean up bandwidth bottlenecks), but if its just being done for the hell of it, then there is a problem.
How could it clean up bandwith bottlenecks if VM continue to deny that there are people using cloned modems to help create the bottlenecks?
Yep, its the Suspect Everybody, Trust Nobody idea.
Except of course, judging from your statement above, whatever VM tell you.
:shrug:
We'll just have to see what happens then
Highly unlikely since VM don't, despite glaring evidence to the contrary, believe that cloning exists. The police are hardly going to arrest someone for a crime that the service provider doesn't think exists, are they? No. Instead paying customers on all tiers will suffer reduced services as a result of theft by others.
Since modem cloning is classed as theft (of services, as you said), the police should arrest them, it's their job to crack down on crime, they would arrest anyone else if they caught them for theft.
Maybe VM need this: http://www.verisign.com/products-services/security-services/pki/pki-application/cable-modem-services/cable-modem-authentication/page_001468.html
Mr Angry
20-10-2007, 16:11
:shrug:
We'll just have to see what happens then
Yes, but the more paying customers that wake up to this and highlight the apparent indifference of VM the better.
Since modem cloning is classed as theft (of services, as you said), the police should arrest them, it's their job to crack down on crime, they would arrest anyone else if they caught them for theft.
It's a different kind of theft though. VM appear unwilling to admit it occurs, never mind catch and prosecute offenders, as their shareholders would be somewhat "disappointed" that they weren't actually capitalizing on the market but instead conceding defeat to anyone who wants to take advantage of their services for free.
Maybe VM need this: http://www.verisign.com/products-services/security-services/pki/pki-application/cable-modem-services/cable-modem-authentication/page_001468.html
I'm not at all tech savy but that does appear to offer some sort of anti cloning security. The problem is, of course, that it would involve spending money - and VM seem happier to let people steal their services than to spend money trying to secure the services of their legitimate paying customers.
Again, the further you let them restrict your services with no tangible benefit, fiscal or otherwise, to the paying customer the longer they will keep doing it.
TraxData
20-10-2007, 16:36
To the question of where this information came from, it was a private discussion between me, alex and someone high up in VM who i cannot mention (because, as you know VM do monitor this forum, and staff get cautioned and sometimes even sacked for talking on here) after a meeting between higher members earlier that morning, it turned into an arguement, alex deleted all emails/msgs relating to it and has now gone back to his "we dont shape, what you on about?" excuse.
I see this forum topic has made it's way onto certain illegal sites already, and for your question on there (i know your reading, and i know what member you are on here, you should perhaps learn to hide your ip in the future, and dont worry, i just reported you for theft of service) i do have VM business BB and also have a second (BT) adsl+2 line, what is your point? learn to grow up. (to the cloner, not CF members)
There upload is one of the poorest already and now this. Utter trash, im gonna phone monday and cancel as the service has gone downhill in the last couple of months anyways. I have gone from a happy 20mb all the time customer to random 1-10mb speeds and now capping on upload. Pathetic company with pathetic customer service. They are multi-million pound company that cannot even sort out the billing system correctly.
There upload is one of the poorest already and now this. Utter trash, im gonna phone monday and cancel as the service has gone downhill in the last couple of months anyways. I have gone from a happy 20mb all the time customer to random 1-10mb speeds and now capping on upload. Pathetic company with pathetic customer service. They are multi-million pound company that cannot even sort out the billing system correctly.
You know, we dont even know any details (i.e. how far it will be capped/when it will be capped etc. thresholds etc. etc.) Unless you upload a phenominal amount, I dont see any reason for anybody to quit, because the amount you upload when requesting a URL etc is neligible. By the sound of it your one of those people who up loads, which is fair enough (and your speed is screwed), but if this shaping wont really affect you, but your thinking about quiting, I wouldnt bother unless you have a serious grouch with something else (cause tbh ADSL sucks, all the exchange foo etc.).
I play alot of games online and the upload can play a big factor, its bad enough as it is with it being so low, so if they were going to cap it it would be a issue for me. Plus as i said the service and customer service is appauling. Bebroadband ADSL is in fact much better in my area than cable as around 8 of my friends have it. There upload is over 1mb and get dl speeds consistantly of 16mb.
I play alot of games online and the upload can play a big factor, its bad enough as it is with it being so low, so if they were going to cap it it would be a issue for me. Plus as i said the service and customer service is appauling. Bebroadband ADSL is in fact much better in my area than cable as around 8 of my friends have it. There upload is over 1mb and get dl speeds consistantly of 16mb.
Lucky, where I live the exchange is a good 5 miles away, the copper sucks, and a friend of mine who's ISP is Tiscali has his signals routed through Italy, and I dont think getting a MAC will be a good idea from them :P
Well, I have been with Diamond Cable for eons, so I dont really know :P
Ive JUST come accross this thread, and Im annoyed to hell!!!
Im a massive user of XBox Live and Regularly uplaod stuff to me mate in America.
And to go from 760kbps to 128kbps is an utter disgrace!
If the trial has been in Preston is it surrounding areas also, because I must admit, Ive seen a change in my XBox Live games...
I am seriously considering leaving now, after this news... I cant be having a bad connection for my Xbox...
Small World Cable Internet is definitly looking good for me...
---------- Post added at 17:12 ---------- Previous post was at 17:10 ----------
OOOOOOOOOOO! 30Mb BB too! Wonder what the upload is on that... hmmmm,/...
Mr Angry
20-10-2007, 17:16
You know, we dont even know any details (i.e. how far it will be capped/when it will be capped etc. thresholds etc. etc.) Unless you upload a phenominal amount, I dont see any reason for anybody to quit, because the amount you upload when requesting a URL etc is neligible. By the sound of it your one of those people who up loads, which is fair enough (and your speed is screwed), but if this shaping wont really affect you, but your thinking about quiting, I wouldnt bother unless you have a serious grouch with something else (cause tbh ADSL sucks, all the exchange foo etc.).
With all due respect, the above is totally irrelevant.
The core questions are:
1: Why are they in a position that they are having to consider introducing it?
2: What part did illegal bandwidth use play in the past decision on applying it to download limits?
3: What tangible and verifiable benefits are to be gained by honest paying customers if they do introduce it that could not be achieved by the elimination of cloning on the network?
4: Why should paying customers be forced to accept these restrictions as a result of the activities of non-paying users?
5: Is there any merit or service benefit, beyond access to a technical support customer service that you have to pay for, afforded to paying customers which non-paying users do not benefit from?
6: If not, why not?
If any of you manage to catch the alex brown thread on the early hours of last night before he started deleting any topic related to it, you already know what the limits are going to be.
Who is alex brown and what thread was is it that he was deleting?
brundles
20-10-2007, 17:56
5: Is there any merit or service benefit, beyond access to a technical support customer service that you have to pay for, afforded to paying customers which non-paying users do not benefit from?
I'm glad you mentioned the tech support side of things - that'll be a whole load more money made by VM because people phone up with terrible speeds only to be told "Sorry, that's the new policy and that'll be £4 for telling you so".
Id agree with the, appropriatly named, Mr. Angry...
bringerofnoise
20-10-2007, 18:00
allowing cloned modems on the network (by allowing i mean doing nothing concrete to stop it) could be taken as negligence, i can't believe it's come to the point where i'm begining to look else where for my connection, not because of speed but because someone could easily clone my modem.
it's not worth the risk and a possible breach of security, when i was on 20meg i never rose above 12 meg and may indicate cloning but could also be a number of issues.
i have downgraded to 4 meg and my speeds are sound now so there maybe some truth that the higher tier is the ones being cloned.
also when i was on 20 meg i ordered the new modem as advised on 3 occasions and each time no modem arrived and when ringing CS they have had on each occasion no record of the order, the words **** and elbow come to mind not that VM would know what they are
Mick Fisher
20-10-2007, 19:07
Broadband from cable was in my eyes the Rolls Royce (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_%28car%29) of Broadband connections, Then came along Virgin and turned it into a Trabant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabant)
:clap::clap::clap:
---------- Post added at 19:07 ---------- Previous post was at 18:37 ----------
Just to say that in my eyes throughput is throughput no matter in which direction. I had been of the opinion that the currant STM limits included upload+download. Perhaps if they had, there would be no need for the revised proposals being discussed in this thread.
In any case I suspect many are sick of VM lurching from crises to crises, each time blaming subs and restricting their services to get out of it and are, like myself, actively seeking alternatives. When VM have no subs to restrict and no jobs left, the Execs can reflect on their ineptitude while they queue in the job centre. Well we can but dream, in reality VM will likely become the new AOL/Tiscali, if it isn't already.
broadbandbug
20-10-2007, 19:25
Hi,
As im sure some of you VM employees found out today, VM are to implement STM on upload as well as download now, the trials currently run in preston and are being fully implemented in january 2008 across the VM Network.
If any of you manage to catch the alex brown thread on the early hours of last night before he started deleting any topic related to it, you already know what the limits are going to be.
As it is currently a trial they don't need to change their communications about STM..*sigh* But when the roll this out nationally and they will.. The comms will change to let everyone know the score.
Not sure of the upstream limits but understand that for 20Mbit Tier it is more than 1GB of Upload between 1600-2100 and then your shaped down to 5mbit/128kup (yes 128kup)
Bye Bye VM, you have finally managed to lose my custom, including my businesses as well.
The penalty is 5Mbit/192Kb/s actually as it is a 75% reduction from 768Kb/s
---------- Post added at 19:25 ---------- Previous post was at 19:09 ----------
allowing cloned modems on the network (by allowing i mean doing nothing concrete to stop it) could be taken as negligence, i can't believe it's come to the point where i'm begining to look else where for my connection, not because of speed but because someone could easily clone my modem.
it's not worth the risk and a possible breach of security, when i was on 20meg i never rose above 12 meg and may indicate cloning but could also be a number of issues.
i have downgraded to 4 meg and my speeds are sound now so there maybe some truth that the higher tier is the ones being cloned.
also when i was on 20 meg i ordered the new modem as advised on 3 occasions and each time no modem arrived and when ringing CS they have had on each occasion no record of the order, the words **** and elbow come to mind not that VM would know what they are
If you read any of the cloner forums you will find that they probably are doing something about it.. especially if you live in Stoke:D
If you read any of the cloner forums you will find that they probably are doing something about it.. especially if you live in Stoke:D
and i bet people are working on it already so when rolled out nationwide VM will back at square 1
TraxData
20-10-2007, 23:12
The penalty is 5Mbit/192Kb/s actually as it is a 75% reduction from 768Kb/s
---------- Post added at 19:25 ---------- Previous post was at 19:09 ----------
If you read any of the cloner forums you will find that they probably are doing something about it.. especially if you live in Stoke:D
Stoke, Grimsby And a small part of nottingham i believe is also running the trial.
Those guys at that certain forum make me laugh, mistaking me for someone else, you see them throwing a fit because everyone knows about their site now? haha...they'll get shut down with time, especially as VM are very much aware of them right now.
Also, again to the cloner, if your man enough, reply to this thread instead of cowering away onto *digital*, you act so big on there, talking how you and all the others have 5x20mbit modems running 24/7, good for you, you guys will get caught.
Course, i wont expect you to actually reply on here, because then everyone on here would know who you are and that u run illegal modems, doubt ur man enough for that :)
Mr Angry
21-10-2007, 00:09
Why don't you just name and shame him / her?
Stoke, Grimsby And a small part of nottingham i believe is also running the trial.
Those guys at that certain forum make me laugh, mistaking me for someone else, you see them throwing a fit because everyone knows about their site now? haha...they'll get shut down with time, especially as VM are very much aware of them right now.
Also, again to the cloner, if your man enough, reply to this thread instead of cowering away onto *digital*, you act so big on there, talking how you and all the others have 5x20mbit modems running 24/7, good for you, you guys will get caught.
Course, i wont expect you to actually reply on here, because then everyone on here would know who you are and that u run illegal modems, doubt ur man enough for that :)
Nice one :)
Why don't you just name and shame him / her?
Just call him Mr Thieving ScumBag Cloner
ECW_Original
21-10-2007, 08:59
Just call him Mr Thieving **** Bag Cloner
Actually, what Id rather call these individuals would get me banned from here probably for life!
Lets just call them "**** of the earth that steals services via cloned modems"
:)
Why don't you just name and shame him / her?
We only have his word for it, there are no facts in what he writes and I can't see where alex brown was supposed to have deleted any posts.
Cobbydaler
21-10-2007, 09:47
We only have his word for it, there are no facts in what he writes and I can't see where alex brown was supposed to have deleted any posts.
Alex Brown is a Senior Product Manager with VM.
The posts being talked about were in the virginmedia.discussion.broadband newsgroup, not on this forum...
Meh my ping is good I barely use P2P.
I'm okay with this
For those that do not understand how to get the news feeds here are the posts in Question.
On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 11:08:38 GMT, "Anon" <abuse@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>Just read this:
>
>
>As im sure some of you VM employees found out today, VM are to implement STM
>on upload as well as download now, the trials currently run in preston and
>are being fully implemented in january 2008 across the VM Network.
>
>
>Can anyone confirm this?
Please don't cross post as this is against the guidelines for the
Virgin Media groups and could be considered to be in breach of the
Acceptable Use Policy according.
I've trimmed the FUs to the .feedback group.
As Fergal, Stewart Dunn, support and myself have all stated a number
of times we undertake technology trials all the time on the network,
and part of these trials is also looking at the Traffic Management
policies. This was mentioned when Traffic Management was implemented
and is in the FAQ on the website
(http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/internet/traffic.html).
As we've mentioned before, Traffic Management was implemented after we
identified that the usage of some customers at peak times was
adversely affecting the service levels for other customers, and we're
committed to fine tuning it in life to ensure that we need to throttle
as few customers as possible while maintaining high service levels for
the majority of customers.
The trials we have done (and are doing) have looked at a number of
factors such as thresholds (upstream and downstream), the window for
which the throttling needs to be applied for and the measurement
window in which traffic management will kick in if thresholds are hit
by the end user.
I can't state strongly enough that our intention is to have to
throttle as few customers as possible (ideally less than the c5% in
each period that the original policy affected) while maintaining good
service levels for the remainder of the cable customers who are
positively impacted by Ttraffic Management.
I can also confirm that NO decisions have yet been made on whether we
will change the traffic management policies at this stage, and on any
potential implementation timelines if any such decision was made. We
are simply in our BAU (Business As Usual) review process of the
policies, which we promised we would do when we launched traffic
management in order to ensure the optimal customer experience.
I also find it highly amusing that some people have forwarded me some
links to sites where I am being accused of deleting posts on
newsgroups! For a start I don't even have the access to do so, let
alone to think that I (or VM) would be sad enough to do so - we
believe strongly in freedom of speech and people stating their views
(as long as they are within the terms of the AUP - basically, be
decent about it and on topic).
Maybe I should be behind a grassy knoll or in Area 51 to say that (any
Cableinetters who remember Mark Cooper would no doubt think that he
could come up with something far more elaborate!).
Anyway, I hope that clears things up. Shame about the rugby, great
result for Liverpool and come on Lewis!
Cheers
Alex
--
Alex Brown
Senior Product Manager
Product Management, Virgin Media
Not as damming as some have made out :rolleyes:
Alex Brown is a Senior Product Manager with VM.
The posts being talked about were in the virginmedia.discussion.broadband newsgroup, not on this forum...
Here's the response from alex brown
I also find it highly amusing that some people have forwarded me some
links to sites where I am being accused of deleting posts on
newsgroups! For a start I don't even have the access to do so, let
alone to think that I (or VM) would be sad enough to do so - we
believe strongly in freedom of speech and people stating their views
Is trax data still saying that alex brown was deleting posts and based on the response from alex can we believe anything else that he is saying?
Is trax data still saying that alex brown was deleting posts and based on the response from alex can we believe anything else that he is saying?
I too am having my doubts
Mr Angry
21-10-2007, 11:16
Thanks very much for that Sirius, much appreciated.
Whilst it does bring into question the "certainty" of upload levels being imposed I find this comment by Mr Brown, which is essentially the info released at the time STM was implemented, rather interesting:
"As we've mentioned before, Traffic Management was implemented after we identified that the usage of some customers at peak times was adversely affecting the service levels for other customers, and we're committed to fine tuning it in life to ensure that we need to throttle as few customers as possible while maintaining high service levels for the majority of customers."
I wonder, in the event that Mr Brown happens across this thread, if he could elaborate in any fashion on how, or if, it was determined that "the usage of some customers at peak times was adversely affecting the service levels for other customers" was actual usage by the paying customer and that the levels were not adversely inflated by their MAC address having been cloned.
I think that this is core to the issue.
They will just sweep it under the carpet like everything else mr angry if they got all the clones off the network i can honestly say the amount of bandwith they would free would probably = no shaping needed, might stop some of us from ranting on about how crap of a inttermitent service weve been getting last weeked i was on 40-75k all weekend from friday till monday night really nice not.
Mr Angry
21-10-2007, 13:41
My point exactly.
xspeedyx
21-10-2007, 14:05
I dnt mind that much I suppose but my torrents will suffer
TraxData
21-10-2007, 15:55
Well you can guys doubt me all you like, i had mentioned STM would be rolled out which no one believed, and i think those of you who believe alex right now need to remember the fact he did nothing but deny they were going to implement STM and then DENIED it when trials were being run, it was ONLY when he was pressured by huge amounts of users that he admitted it was in place.
He has been known to lie on endless occasions, hardly a trustworthy person and a fair amount of people on here know that.
Edit : Also, yes he does have the power to delete messages, and does so on a regular basis if it is something he doesnt like.
And with his reply he is neither admitting nor denying the STM upload trial, though if you read between the lines you know its true, his response was exactly like this when STM trials were in place, this is where he plays his little game :)
Well you can guys doubt me all you like, i had mentioned STM would be rolled out which no one believed, and i think those of you who believe alex right now need to remember the fact he did nothing but deny they were going to implement STM and then DENIED it when trials were being run, it was ONLY when he was pressured by huge amounts of users that he admitted it was in place.
He has been known to lie on endless occasions, hardly a trustworthy person and a fair amount of people on here know that.
Edit : Also, yes he does have the power to delete messages, and does so on a regular basis if it is something he doesnt like.
And with his reply he is neither admitting nor denying the STM upload trial, though if you read between the lines you know its true, his response was exactly like this when STM trials were in place, this is where he plays his little game :)
Question
Do you work for Virgin by any chance ?
Yes
No
Will do
:)
TraxData
21-10-2007, 16:03
Question
Do you work for Virgin by any chance ?
Yes
No
Will do
:)
I have done in the past, and i know a few people at VM who are pretty high up the ladder yes.
Also, on the alex brown thing, please remember, he has to make VM look good for the shareholders, and fob customers off as much as he can (and he does this often, look through the ngs, look how he handles topics on STM, denies it mostly, says it isnt a limit etc) ;):p:
I have done in the past, and i know a few people at VM who are pretty high up the ladder yes.
Also, on the alex brown thing, please remember, he has to make VM look good for the shareholders, and fob customers off as much as he can (and he does this often, look through the ngs, look how he handles topics on STM, denies it mostly, says it isnt a limit etc) ;):p:
Thanks for the answer :tu:
TraxData
21-10-2007, 16:10
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=680439
Another thread on the subject at hand, see, im not the only one who knew about the meeting this morning!
Does anyone know what the average Upload Size is of, say, a Six hour run on a game on Xbox Live?
Im not sure if its measurable, but I wanna know how much you upload, just incase something like this happens in the near future...
Dark Fiber
22-10-2007, 10:36
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=680439
Another thread on the subject at hand, see, im not the only one who knew about the meeting this morning!
Interestingly, this thread has become inaccessible :erm:
Mr Angry
22-10-2007, 11:13
Interestingly, this thread has become inaccessible :erm:
Perhaps the internet police have been at their work?
Does anyone know what the average Upload Size is of, say, a Six hour run on a game on Xbox Live?
Depends on the game.
Unreal 2k6 - 70Mb/hour
GTR - 80Mb/hour
BF2142 - 150Mb/hour
Eve Online - 300Mb/hour
That's playing of course, if you want to host a game you are going to chew up a lot more than that.
So, under the new scheme Eve players are only allowed 3 hours of play before their connection becomes unusable. Assuming they don't use it for anything else of course. Nice.
God help anyone using BBC iPlayer or Joost.
Hmm.
BBC Iplayer uploads all the time unless you tell it not to and thats not illegal.
Joost also does the same thing and thats not illegal.
As for gaming i suspect a decent fps with a good number of players is gonna be badly affected by a 128k only upload.
edit:- i didnt see mojos reply before i posted mine :P great minds think alike :)
BBC Iplayer uploads all the time unless you tell it not to and thats not illegal.
Joost also does the same thing and thats not illegal.
I havn't used the iPlayer myself but isn't one of the criticisms (according to Wikipedia) that the user has little or no control over the P2P part (Kontiki)? Wikipedia states that you cannot control the upload/download speed and it runs in the background all the time. Channel 4's 4OD is apparently the same.
Someone posted a really good comment on the Ars Technica forums about why BT and uploading is now essential for many companies. The example used was Blizzard distributing patches for WoW. They have nearly 10 million users, many of whom are going to want patches the day they are released. Say 2 million users want the patches on the first day:
Small patch: 2 MB * 10 million users = 20 TB, 4 TB on Day 1.
Large patch: 40 MB * 10 million users = 400 TB, 80 TB on Day 1.
It's cost prohibitive to transfer 80 TB in one day over the net. So, they use BitTorrent.
One thing that really bugs me off though is why dont they shape it to 10mb levels (back to pre stm) it seems strange for a company to shape you to lesser than what you were getting beforehand, im sure many would agree that shaped to 10mb download and 45k upload is a more stable soloution and free's up a lot of bandwith while at the meantime keeping a decent speed for tasks such as gaming, browsing and general net usage.
We dont want to be shaped to half of the pre 10mb level what is the point, 10mb was stable so shape us back to that if need be not gimp everyone.
I havn't used the iPlayer myself but isn't one of the criticisms (according to Wikipedia) that the user has little or no control over the P2P part (Kontiki)? Wikipedia states that you cannot control the upload/download speed and it runs in the background all the time. Channel 4's 4OD is apparently the same.
This is indeed true, the only way to stop iplayer uploading is to close it down in task manager there is an option that says "load on startup" but even if its off it still uploads :( still iplayer is in beta so that may change.
Ravenalba
22-10-2007, 15:13
Long-term Rate Alert readers may remember that earlier this summer, moneysupermarket.com conducted a ground-breaking survey into broadband speeds – the largest of its kind in the UK - with more than 43,000 broadband users taking part.
The results were astounding, with only around 21% receiving the speeds they signed up for – and a whopping 44% only getting half the speed they expected.
The figures have been grabbing headlines ever since – and now the UK’s media regulator Ofcom has taken action, sending letters to the bosses of the top six broadband providers in the UK – including BT, Tiscali and TalkTalk.
Though most broadband providers advertise speeds using the terminology “up toâ€Â; Ofcom’s opinion is that more information should be given to consumers about their likely connection speeds. Also, customers should be allowed to break contracts if they are receiving speeds and quality well below the figures advertised.
While I certainly support these proposals, I also sympathise with the providers. For the most part, speeds are out of their hands and can be affected by factors such as line interference, the quality of wiring to your home and the number of people sharing your connection.
However, that’s scant consolation to the customers who feel they aren’t receiving value for money. So what can you do to get the download speeds you need?
Well, the first step is to test your broadband speed and find out what you’re getting. We’ll soon be launching a broadband speed test in the broadband channel (http://www.moneysupermarket.com/broadband/?Source=RATE4) at moneysupermarket.com – but for now you can test your speed elsewhere at websites such as speedtest.net and speedtest.bbmax.co.uk.
From there, contact your current provider and see if it is willing to upgrade you based on your results. If not, you might wish to consider other packages or shop around with another provider.
One suggestion is to get yourself on a package that offers a super-fast rate – meaning that even if you don’t get the advertised speed you should still get a rate that satisfies you.
Currently, the fastest speeds in the UK are available from Be broadband. The Be Unlimited (http://www.moneysupermarket.com/3rdparty/default.asp?Source=RATE4&CID=2609) deal offers 24Mb speeds and unlimited* downloads for just £24 a month. Encouragingly, it also comes with a three-month contract – meaning that you won’t be tied in for the long-term if you’re not happy.
Another solution, assuming that higher speeds simply aren’t possible where you are based, is to look for a cheaper 8Mb broadband contract. Here are some of the leading 8Mb deals around – all of which are on the BT network, meaning they are available in 99.6% of the UK:
[FONT=Verdana]Long-term Rate Alert readers may remember ---CUT---
You shouldn't duplicate full articles as it may be against copyright. Post a link and a short quote which gives an indication of what the story is about ;)
I think the bottom line is most people a buggered. Either you get Virgin, which means your line is guaranteed capable of 20meg but put up with crippling traffic throttling, you get LLU ADSL and hope you can get a descent speed, or you get a BT reseller and live with poor speeds, massive oversubscription and pathetic download limits. It's a no-win situation for a lot of people.
I have been thinking back to the days of Dial-up and how ISP's promised the earth such as 24/7 free service for a fixed monthly sum only to discover that their customers believed every word and they were soon oversubscribed.Then the downside arrived in the fact that some selfish customers were flogging it literally for 24/7 and then there those who couldn't even get connected because of the selfish ones and the selfish ones were accused of download pron and doing illegal activities such as downloading copyrighted material and running illegal business's....
Then ISP's decided they would disconnect everyone after 2 hours and then customers had a mad dash to try and get reconnected before they too were the unlucky ones unable to connect....and everyone yearned for Broadband where they would be connected to an always on service.
And lo there was Broadband.Unlimited connections and downloads for all.Speeds were increased because of new technologies and everyone wanting the latest games,software and soon there were too many chasing too little bandwidth and then there was accusations that heavy users were downloading pron and copyrighted material and the ISP's introduced capping.
And the ISP's reaction every time is to offer increased speeds and unlimited everything..and when people take them at their word they introduce another way to control the situation annoying the hell out of paying customers.
Nothing changes it seems.:)
and then i read over at Slyck.com that virgin will be offering 50meg and that trials have begun.
I dont want 50meg i want 20meg uncapped. 50meg with the same allowance and after 15 mins or so downloading your fav linux iso (wild guess) youll be throttled, will annoy even more people than they already do.
Bye Bye VM, you have finally managed to lose my custom, including my businesses as well.
Complain to Ofcom and the ASA, it's pretty clear that under these draconian management policies, no-one is getting the service they paid for.
VM's Fair Use Policy is anything but fair (IMHO).
I notice there's been no adverts for VM broadband for the last few months.... ;)
---------- Post added at 16:39 ---------- Previous post was at 16:36 ----------
Firstly they introduced the shaping because of a naughty 5% of people abusing the network - that worked wonders, not..
*IF* you believe the hype, which I don't. If they can roll out 50/20Mb services then my usage on a poultry 2Mb service must be negligable in the great scheme of things, and I'm shaped every day!
It's merely a way of selling bandwidth that's already been paid for twice.
---------- Post added at 16:47 ---------- Previous post was at 16:39 ----------
Im a massive user of XBox Live and Regularly uplaod stuff to me mate in America.
Oh the irony of the Halo3 advert VM were using to sell their warez.
Chrysalis
22-10-2007, 18:00
I have been thinking back to the days of Dial-up and how ISP's promised the earth such as 24/7 free service for a fixed monthly sum only to discover that their customers believed every word and they were soon oversubscribed.Then the downside arrived in the fact that some selfish customers were flogging it literally for 24/7 and then there those who couldn't even get connected because of the selfish ones and the selfish ones were accused of download pron and doing illegal activities such as downloading copyrighted material and running illegal business's....
Then ISP's decided they would disconnect everyone after 2 hours and then customers had a mad dash to try and get reconnected before they too were the unlucky ones unable to connect....and everyone yearned for Broadband where they would be connected to an always on service.
And lo there was Broadband.Unlimited connections and downloads for all.Speeds were increased because of new technologies and everyone wanting the latest games,software and soon there were too many chasing too little bandwidth and then there was accusations that heavy users were downloading pron and copyrighted material and the ISP's introduced capping.
And the ISP's reaction every time is to offer increased speeds and unlimited everything..and when people take them at their word they introduce another way to control the situation annoying the hell out of paying customers.
Nothing changes it seems.:)
The time when things were good when broadband just started out at low speeds, prices were higher (viable) and networks had excess capacity. 512kbit adsl ran at full speed all the time and the BT central pricing was different then much cheaper for traffic but higher costs per dsl port this meant higher prices but isps could honour their traffic obligations.
Mick Fisher
22-10-2007, 20:04
I have been thinking back to the days of Dial-up and how ISP's promised the earth such as 24/7 free service for a fixed monthly sum only to discover that their customers believed every word and they were soon oversubscribed.Then the downside arrived in the fact that some selfish customers were flogging it literally for 24/7 and then there those who couldn't even get connected because of the selfish ones and the selfish ones were accused of download pron and doing illegal activities such as downloading copyrighted material and running illegal business's....
Then ISP's decided they would disconnect everyone after 2 hours and then customers had a mad dash to try and get reconnected before they too were the unlucky ones unable to connect....and everyone yearned for Broadband where they would be connected to an always on service.
And lo there was Broadband.Unlimited connections and downloads for all.Speeds were increased because of new technologies and everyone wanting the latest games,software and soon there were too many chasing too little bandwidth and then there was accusations that heavy users were downloading pron and copyrighted material and the ISP's introduced capping.
And the ISP's reaction every time is to offer increased speeds and unlimited everything..and when people take them at their word they introduce another way to control the situation annoying the hell out of paying customers.
Nothing changes it seems.:)
Too right :clap::clap:
and then i read over at Slyck.com that virgin will be offering 50meg and that trials have begun.
I dont want 50meg i want 20meg uncapped. 50meg with the same allowance and after 15 mins or so downloading your fav linux iso (wild guess) youll be throttled, will annoy even more people than they already do.
When you consider how much the service degraded when 20meg came in, you can only imagine what will happen when 50meg becomes available. I used to have a rock solid, constant 10meg connection, and was very happy.
Some people have suggested that 50meg will cost more than 20meg, and will be offered as another tier. If that's true, you would be mad to pay for it. 20meg is bad enough, and you can be sure of never getting a full 50meg between 4pm and midnight, the times when most people will want to use it. Even without traffic shaping, I often only get about 12-16meg during those times.
donaldson2121
23-10-2007, 00:09
This "shaping" is really starting to do my head in. I work from 9am-6pm mon-fri and paying for the 20mb package. but as soon as i get home i find my connection is below 2mb never mind 20mb!! as soon as 12pm comes round POW! my connection flies in at full wack and im finally getting the speed i pay for..https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2007/10/9.png
The time on the test above is actually 00.01am not 11.01pm as it says (must be a hour behind for some reason)
Why is it that i cant get anywhere near this at peak hours? i dont download while im at work but as soon as i get home it looks like im limited (upload is fine)
im on the bagu.cable.ntl.com and based in Stoke-on-trent. Is stoke being shaped differently or running some other kind of trial???
Why the rush for more speed and a faster cap id rather have a better performing service rather than a flaky connection, symmetrical lines anyone? that should be vm's goal not ripping off the customers who have supported them since the start.
Uncle Peter
23-10-2007, 00:31
I often only get about 12-16meg during those times.
Then you're one of the lucky ones
Mick Fisher
23-10-2007, 00:37
This "shaping" is really starting to do my head in. I work from 9am-6pm mon-fri and paying for the 20mb package. but as soon as i get home i find my connection is below 2mb never mind 20mb!! as soon as 12pm comes round POW! my connection flies in at full wack..........snipped the graphic
It makes one wonder if contention is in fact the sole cause of this VM BB fiasco. I am in one of the original 20meg trial areas. I must admit that even then it was rare to see the full whack during the daytime but it was always an improvement over 10meg. IIRC the speed was always within the range of 12 to 18.5Mbps.
I was just wondering if STM itself is screwing up the network when it comes into effect, whether you are incurring it or not.
Hmmm, well it's 12.33 and I just did a trial dl and struggled to reach 12Mbps so I guess not, well at least not here. :(
Only way VM will take notice of how they affecting us broadband users if we all phone up on a given day and ask them to cancel our accounts because they are not providing us what we pay for. As for capping our uploads it is not in the fup. so as soon as vm introduces the upload policy we can get out of thier contract , Also what i find strange with vm we all paying diffrent prices for their services which is not fair gr8 way to run a company VM Not.I think VM will be losing a lot more customers than they think if they decide to cap the uploads as the upload ratio is cr@p as it is .
Mick Fisher
23-10-2007, 00:52
The words ****-up and breweries will be forever associated with Ntl. It appears that VM is enthusiastically taking up the mettle and even surpassing it's deceased parent in this field.
slowcoach
23-10-2007, 01:34
The only time I can guarantee full speed is between 1.30am and 5.30am, speed can be 4MB at 6am so I think we can rule out contention, can't see everyone getting up at 6am to start their torrents. :rolleyes:
During the daytime and evening, speeds vary wildly, it can be 512kb then 10 minutes later 19MB, VM's servers and normally fast Euro servers all download at the same speed.
Something on the VM network is screwing the speeds up, whether intentionally or unintentionally. The problems started when STM and VOD were implemented, can't see VOD causing a problem at 6am so that just leaves STM in my book.
AbyssUnderground
23-10-2007, 08:23
I think it should go back to the way it was with a download cap then a slower set speed for the rest of the month. Maybe that would have more of an effect than STM does, since its just causing everyone to go crazy at the moment.
I for one would welcome a download cap back since I don't use my connection enough to worry about it. I probably download about 50GB a month if not less.
Maybe this would teach people to conserve their bandwidth? (or not?)
been with NTL/VM since day one broadband was available in my area (600k!) i got my modem paid my £25 a month (including modem rental) and sat at home waiting for the lights to come on and give me broadband! man it was exciting :) that was 7 or so years ago, Im now enjoying 20 meg and have put up with every change they have thrown at me but thats it for now.
I have ordered my ADSL connection (its only 8 meg!)
And some CF members actually believe that this type of service is worth the money they pay for it. :rolleyes:
If I was taken off the deal that retentions put me on, and told to pay the full price for my 20mb, i'd be gone in a flash! :Sprint:
brundles
23-10-2007, 09:29
The words ****-up and breweries will be forever associated with Ntl. It appears that VM is enthusiastically taking up the mettle and even surpassing it's deceased parent in this field.
That's the bizarre thing - given the rebranding to Virgin you would have thought that the NTL folks still running the show would have done what they could to actually use it as an opportunity to try and leave the past behind. Instead they stomp on it and try to make it worse than the NTL brand was so it can be waved around on watchdog where everyone mistakenly believes it's all VMs (and by implication) Richard Bransons fault.
fatassmichael
23-10-2007, 11:14
I think it should go back to the way it was with a download cap then a slower set speed for the rest of the month. Maybe that would have more of an effect than STM does, since its just causing everyone to go crazy at the moment.
I for one would welcome a download cap back since I don't use my connection enough to worry about it. I probably download about 50GB a month if not less.
Maybe this would teach people to conserve their bandwidth? (or not?)
I could see that scenario driving more scumbags to use dodgy modems, therefore stealing peoples monthly allowance, rather than their daily allowance.
AbyssUnderground
23-10-2007, 12:10
I could see that scenario driving more scumbags to use dodgy modems, therefore stealing peoples monthly allowance, rather than their daily allowance.
At least it wouldn't congest the network for others once they hit the limit. Also people would be more aware of the fact their connection won't be shaped unless they hit 'x' limit.
Why is it that i cant get anywhere near this at peak hours? i dont download while im at work but as soon as i get home it looks like im limited (upload is fine)
There are a few reasons why this could be. Your area/UBR could be oversubscribed. I also find that the alleged rules of traffic shaping (3GB, then four hours of shaping) are not followed. It seems like the shape when there is not enough bandwidth for everyone in your area as well.
The other big issue seems to be that the shaping is broken somehow. It doesn't just reduce your modem to 1/4th what you paid for, it actually seems to cause more problems with speed fluctuations, packet loss etc.
Basically Virgin need to spend money upgrading their systems. Despite their "focus on broadband" they won't. I think what they actually mean by that is they want more hype.
brundles
23-10-2007, 12:27
At least it wouldn't congest the network for others once they hit the limit. Also people would be more aware of the fact their connection won't be shaped unless they hit 'x' limit.
And then we get back to the fact that VM won't provide any information on how close to the limits you are. I could give them the benefit of the doubt and say that it's because they haven't got around to it yet or I could be cynical and say it's because that would provide people with evidence they are the victim of those mythical cloners.
Either way, if VM are going to continue down the throttling/capping path they need to provide this data - to try and build trust in their customer base that they are actually behaving as they say if nothing else.
And some CF members actually believe that this type of service is worth the money they pay for it.
If I was taken off the deal that retentions put me on, and told to pay the full price for my 20mb, i'd be gone in a flash!
And many more CF members will accuse us of being the types who accept any ole crappy service just so long as it`s cheap enough eh....:rolleyes:
We were also one of the first to be upgraded away back in June but as is well documented around this place we never witnessed anything close to the 20Mb for a whole 3 months 2 weeks.In fact it was that 2 weeks into the second 3 month period when the 20Mb finally did show up.
There was me thinking we`d at least get another 2 months 2 weeks of full speed half price 20Mb for all the messing about if nothing else.Wrong......only one month or so did we see the 20Mb speeds but for the last 3 weeks it`s been back down in the low single figures again mostly.(including early am)
Their current speeds are not even worth the £18 they get outta me just now but as i did get at least one full speed month at half price i`m holding back on any further calls for the moment.Seems only fair.
Speeds are not the be all & end all for us although that dont mean they get away with it of course.
We have other services and other people at home whom i have to consider but i will only pay for what i get with the bb.
Like many, i am watching the BE movers with interest but i would still never move to any of the other cowboys out there i dont think.
I suppose i could always try utilise the old spare NTL120 i have here eh:D
broadbandbug
23-10-2007, 14:46
This is indeed true, the only way to stop iplayer uploading is to close it down in task manager there is an option that says "load on startup" but even if its off it still uploads :( still iplayer is in beta so that may change.
New version of iPlayer allows you to turn off the upload feature in advanced options.. Obviously this is not what BBC recommends as it screws the whole concept.. But you can do it in the evenings if it is going to impact your other internet use.
---------- Post added at 14:46 ---------- Previous post was at 14:43 ----------
When you consider how much the service degraded when 20meg came in, you can only imagine what will happen when 50meg becomes available. I used to have a rock solid, constant 10meg connection, and was very happy.
Some people have suggested that 50meg will cost more than 20meg, and will be offered as another tier. If that's true, you would be mad to pay for it. 20meg is bad enough, and you can be sure of never getting a full 50meg between 4pm and midnight, the times when most people will want to use it. Even without traffic shaping, I often only get about 12-16meg during those times.
50Mb/s will be delivered on a different platform (DoCSIS 3.0) so new modems, different frequencies etc.. So is unlikely to have same issues as currently seen on the DoCSIS 1.0 platform currently in use for 2, 4 & 20Mb/s
TraxData
23-10-2007, 15:08
New version of iPlayer allows you to turn off the upload feature in advanced options.. Obviously this is not what BBC recommends as it screws the whole concept.. But you can do it in the evenings if it is going to impact your other internet use.
---------- Post added at 14:46 ---------- Previous post was at 14:43 ----------
50Mb/s will be delivered on a different platform (DoCSIS 3.0) so new modems, different frequencies etc.. So is unlikely to have same issues as currently seen on the DoCSIS 1.0 platform currently in use for 2, 4 & 20Mb/s
True, it is indeed known rolling out 50mbit on docsis3 would actually be LESS stressful on the network than having everyone on 20mbit like right now.
However, while the 50 & 100mbit trials do not have STM, it is widely thought to have STM enabled on it at launch.
And with a pitterful 1.5mbit upload on the 50mbit package, at £50/month i cant see many people going for it.
at £50/month i cant see many people going for it.
people paid that for a 1meg connection years ago when it was introduced, and im sure many will pay it now
TraxData
23-10-2007, 15:38
people paid that for a 1meg connection years ago when it was introduced, and im sure many will pay it now
Yea, because 50mbit is so useful with STM and 1.5mbit upload isnt it.
That's why i said no one will pay up, no point in paying that sort of a price when your not gonna get that speed.
by that defintion 20meg with STM is so useful isnt it......
how do you know wont get that speed? have the details of the STM (for the 50mbps) been announced?
Mick Fisher
23-10-2007, 16:43
That's the bizarre thing - given the rebranding to Virgin you would have thought that the NTL folks still running the show would have done what they could to actually use it as an opportunity to try and leave the past behind. Instead they stomp on it and try to make it worse than the NTL brand was so it can be waved around on watchdog where everyone mistakenly believes it's all VMs (and by implication) Richard Bransons fault.
It is my belief that Ntl considered a few shares to be well worth the opportunity to use the Toothy Ones previous reasonably good name and brand image to Shaft him, the Virgin brand, their loyal customer base and all the new sign-ups they got in an effort to make a killing before selling the whole schebang and making another killing.
Such a pity Murdoch rained on their parade and the financial market went pear shaped.
The big pity is Dickie has been made to look a fool and the Virgin brand is forever sullied IMO.
The big pity is Dickie has been made to look a fool and the Virgin brand is forever sullied IMO.
Agreed, ditched my phone, ditched my credit card, soon to be ditching the BB.
I wouldn't deliberately go with Virgin for any service again.
TraxData
23-10-2007, 17:08
by that defintion 20meg with STM is so useful isnt it......
how do you know wont get that speed? have the details of the STM (for the 50mbps) been announced?
20mit with STM isnt useful.
And VM dont exactly make it easily findable that you get STM'd and they shout "unlimited, no caps" at everyone, so alot of people who are getting slow speeds dont even know its because of STM, alot of their tech support have no idea what STM is either.
There is already an STM trial for the 50mbit package to "stop heavy usage" yes, because why would anyone want 50mbit, other than to read emails quicker, wahoo!
Wether you like it or not, with the current infrastructure, VM just cant support heavy usage, and they refuse to pay to upgrade the network (apparently cant afford it) however they dont mind giving shareholders and managers huge bonus's each year ;)
For those of us that are smart, know that VM is just signing up as many customers as it can to make it look good to potential buyers, then leavin the new owners with a **** storm in a tea cup.
It's a real shame they've ruined the virgin brand name.
Wont get anything virgin again.
I could see that scenario driving more scumbags to use dodgy modems, therefore stealing peoples monthly allowance, rather than their daily allowance.
That is a good point. I for one never ever want to see another CAP on cable because it will just make me move to another provider like it did last time.
---------- Post added at 17:42 ---------- Previous post was at 17:35 ----------
I think it should go back to the way it was with a download cap then a slower set speed for the rest of the month. Maybe that would have more of an effect than STM does, since its just causing everyone to go crazy at the moment.
I for one would welcome a download cap back since I don't use my connection enough to worry about it. I probably download about 50GB a month if not less.
Maybe this would teach people to conserve their bandwidth? (or not?)
I for one would dump VM in a flash if they decided to bring back the CAP. It was the most ill conceived stupid idiotic and down right crap decision they ever made and anyone that thinks its the right decision needs there bumps feeling :LOL:.
you want to see cloned modems on the network, Just bring back the cap and watch how fast they are connected to the network :rolleyes:
BTW how much does your server upload per month it works both ways ?
AbyssUnderground
23-10-2007, 17:55
BTW how much does your server upload per month it works both ways ?
No where near 50GB. Anyway I don't host a full blown server on my broadband anymore, its all dedicated in USA on a 100Mbps connection.
And with a pitterful 1.5mbit upload on the 50mbit package, at £50/month i cant see many people going for it.
Indeed. For a full 50mbit down you need to send approximately 1.35mbit of ACK packets alone. It would be difficult to actually achieve 50mbit in real life because typically doing so requires more than a single TCP/IP connection, protocol overhead etc. 1.5mbit is simply not enough to utilise such a connection.
Even on 20mbit, you need around 550kbit just to ACKs, making it impossible to max out with P2P where protocol overhead alone saturates the upload bandwidth, let alone P2P uploads.
Of course the joke is most people actually using 50mbit will be doing so with multiple connections, multiple users etc.
Edit:Already quoted previously :
I wish Alex would post here himself, there's far too much hear-say and rubbish posted here from other forums and unknown sources. It's got to the point where I only believe these stories if they're posted on the front page or by one of the VM people on usenet.
No where near 50GB. Anyway I don't host a full blown server on my broadband anymore, its all dedicated in USA on a 100Mbps connection.
Nice one :tu:
brundles
23-10-2007, 21:22
Edit:Already quoted previously :
I wish Alex would post here himself, there's far too much hear-say and rubbish posted here from other forums and unknown sources. It's got to the point where I only believe these stories if they're posted on the front page or by one of the VM people on usenet.
Isn't that contradictory? You want Alex to post yet you want the truth and not rubbish?
I guess to be fair we can trust what he says so long as we read the exact wording very careful and spot what he's deliberately omitted.
broadbandbug
24-10-2007, 18:14
True, it is indeed known rolling out 50mbit on docsis3 would actually be LESS stressful on the network than having everyone on 20mbit like right now.
However, while the 50 & 100mbit trials do not have STM, it is widely thought to have STM enabled on it at launch.
And with a pitterful 1.5mbit upload on the 50mbit package, at £50/month i cant see many people going for it.
I think the 1.5Mb/s upload will have changed by launch;)
TraxData
24-10-2007, 18:14
I think the 1.5Mb/s upload will have changed by launch;)
That's what you think.
And on the off chance they did up it, it wouldnt be by much, and unless it was at least 5mbit, preferably 10 for a fair ratio like other european isps, then it really isnt worth it.
broadbandbug
24-10-2007, 18:20
That's what you think.
And on the off chance they did up it, it wouldnt be by much, and unless it was at least 5mbit, preferably 10 for a fair ratio like other european isps, then it really isnt worth it.
At launch I can't see it being more than 5Mb/s due to still having the limitations of only being able to register on one upstream port with Pre-DoCSIS 3. It is not until full DoCSIS 3.0 hardware comes out in Q4 2008/Q1 2009 that bonding of upstream channels will be possible.. Now when they get that functionality.. They will have the ability to vastly improve the upstream bandwidth.
That's what you think.
And on the off chance they did up it, it wouldnt be by much, and unless it was at least 5mbit, preferably 10 for a fair ratio like other european isps, then it really isnt worth it.
again what other isps links please???? or is this just some urban myth i havnt caught onto yet
The only thing that will force them to offer better upload speeds is fibre roll out, which hopefully would be symmetrical. Since no-one is willing to do fibre in the UK, it's unlikely to happen any time soon.
Shame really as Virgin could use it as a big marketing point. ADSL can't offer better upload speeds, so instead of playing a numbers game based purely on download speeds they could beat ADSL on upload as well. It should be easy to market - send big email attachments faster, upload photos faster, better quality webcam chat etc.
Dawn Falcon
25-10-2007, 00:29
I dunno how it is likely to affect people who need good pings from things like gaming.
It's going to make things even worse. Not that it really matters. I'm in Oxford and I'm getting 350-550ms ping with 15% dropped packets on connecting to any game servers.
And I can't change ISP since the connection's provided by the landlord.
It's going to make things even worse. Not that it really matters. I'm in Oxford and I'm getting 350-550ms ping with 15% dropped packets on connecting to any game servers.
And I can't change ISP since the connection's provided by the landlord.
this upload limting is taking the **** really
at least us cloners can just click a button and its sorted. :D
AbyssUnderground
25-10-2007, 15:32
this upload limting is taking the **** really
at least us cloners can just click a button and its sorted. :D
When is this guy gonna get banned? I bet its not just my nut he's doing in...
well theres proof of some people just taking us all for a ride while paying nothing and not sufferring from anything and us paying for a crippled service which vm seem to ignore,ignore and ignore and charge to hear your complaints and reasons, those people on these boards that themselves work at vm can you not get someone high up the ladder to come and talk to us users here on the forum who are getting shafted every day with poor performance during peak hours still 4 MONTH after rollout of 20mb and ask them questions or hear what they have to say they are going to do about it.
Its taking the proverbial when people blatently come and brag about bw stealing and laughing at us poor doofus that are having to put up with this, vm are a silent company when it comes to upgrades,network problems and soloutions but quick as hell when it comes to pr or free advertising.
Further throttles to the network will result in it's user base dying pretty rapidly and as for people on here saying vm are upgrading stuff no im sorry there not its called maintainance i.e someone sitting in the ubr tweaking voltages and hitting the head end with a hammer in the glimmer of hope that he's going to pump more data through the straw.
If some people do research you would see that vm advertising budget for this year is about 50million now compare that to the upgrades and maintainance budget of 120,000 for the year and do people not realise now why we are getting this sort of service? see the advertising feel the throttle spings to mind.
why would you want me banned did I abuse and oneor break any forum rule
peace my brother
jesus love you and me
Have your laugh while you can clone boy when everyone deserts vm or deserts top lolable tier you will have nothing left to clone.
Looks like Derby is in the trial
http://www.speedtest.net/result/199014835.png
I will test it again tomorrow and if the same i'll be on the phone.........................
slowcoach
05-11-2007, 02:38
Can you phone up and get put on the trial? :dunce:
Yep the trial is affecting Derby for the third night in a row 5 meg down load speed and up load cut to 256 Kbs so I will be putting my 30 day notice in, sorry but enough is enough.
I can get 3.5 download and 768 upload on adsl so I will stick at that at a cost of £14.00 saving £23 a month, ok its 3.5 and not 20 but at least its a constant speed which is not much different in download speed on the cut down 20 meg to 5 meg from VM but better then the 256 upload at 768.
The only limit is a 10 gig cap but I do not get near 6 gig in a month so it will not affect me.
Mick Fisher
08-11-2007, 01:36
Yep the trial is affecting Derby for the third night in a row 5 meg down load speed and up load cut to 256 Kbs so I will be putting my 30 day notice in, sorry but enough is enough.
I can get 3.5 download and 768 upload on adsl so I will stick at that at a cost of £14.00 saving £23 a month, ok its 3.5 and not 20 but at least its a constant speed which is not much different in download speed on the cut down 20 meg to 5 meg from VM but better then the 256 upload at 768.
The only limit is a 10 gig cap but I do not get near 6 gig in a month so it will not affect me.
I noticed this seemed to have started in NN10 as well when I downloaded a little at 10.00pm. It's now 01.22am and it's still the same. And no I shouldn't be capped as I only down loaded 2.5 gig inside the capping time zone.
Maybe It started earlier but I haven't downloaded anything for a couple of days so wouldn't have noticed.
Anyway I think I'm done now with this sad excuse for an ISP. The BB is the only VM service I got left now and it's been getting slower and more problematic by the day. I can get a 5meg-256k service from umpteen suppliers at a fraction of the £37.00 that VM are ripping me off for. :mad:
The only time I noticed it here after reading this thread was when I had to down load a ISO of just under 900 meg, and with a possible 300 meg downloaded earlier that evening the speed both up and down dropped like a rock.
The second night nothing downloaded until I down loaded a couple of demo's reaching over 1 gig (for a test) and bang the speed was gone again.
Tonight 7/11/07 again just over 1 gig down loaded and again cut down to 5 meg and 256 up and its now 2:24 am and it's still at the cut down speeds.
For the record I'm not interested in any retention deal or discount when I contact them either this week or beginining of next week just my 30 day notice.
Anyway time for bed.........
Mick Fisher
08-11-2007, 03:06
03.00 and after a couple of mini outages the speed has come back on NNTP but browsing is like wading through treacle.
Yeah you are right.. guess it's time to move on.
robbie73
08-11-2007, 16:55
Well, after reading ALL 152 posts up to now, all I can say is
"Let's get something properly organised and put it to VM formerly".
Yep this thread is fantastic for sharing experiences and thoughts & opinions and very enlightening too, but it falls short of doing anything constructive.
From what i have read in this very popular thread, Consumers (such as myself) are experiencing:
1. Less speed than they pay for
2. Contracts amended randomly
3. Having their 'paid for' service hijacked by clones
4. Extremely poor 'customer support' (i use the words loosely then it comes to this company)
5. No loyalty to customers at all, arrogant and blatant abuse of customers loyalty and alternatives or any right to redress
You can't help but wonder why not everybody is using cloned modems in these circumstances! It certainly appeals. Especially if your bank/employer fouls a payment and then VM whack a £10.00 charge on top for late payment, in addition to the £5.00 if you don't pay by direct debit.
ALL these facts need presenting to the company and I would glady borrow a car and give people a lift if we ALL would arrange to put our thoughts fears and ideas face to face with the people that make these decisions/treat us so badly.
by the way, it would be helpful if people posted the connection speed they are paying for.
I'm on £18 2mbit connection which after stupid unfair costs turns out to be £33 or £23, depending on my employer or the bank.
Rob
Mick Fisher
09-11-2007, 01:03
Well, after reading ALL 152 posts up to now, all I can say is
"Let's get something properly organised and put it to VM formerly".
Yep this thread is fantastic for sharing experiences and thoughts & opinions and very enlightening too, but it falls short of doing anything constructive.
From what i have read in this very popular thread, Consumers (such as myself) are experiencing:
1. Less speed than they pay for
2. Contracts amended randomly
3. Having their 'paid for' service hijacked by clones
4. Extremely poor 'customer support' (i use the words loosely then it comes to this company)
5. No loyalty to customers at all, arrogant and blatant abuse of customers loyalty and alternatives or any right to redress
You can't help but wonder why not everybody is using cloned modems in these circumstances! It certainly appeals. Especially if your bank/employer fouls a payment and then VM whack a £10.00 charge on top for late payment, in addition to the £5.00 if you don't pay by direct debit.
ALL these facts need presenting to the company and I would glady borrow a car and give people a lift if we ALL would arrange to put our thoughts fears and ideas face to face with the people that make these decisions/treat us so badly.
by the way, it would be helpful if people posted the connection speed they are paying for.
I'm on £18 2mbit connection which after stupid unfair costs turns out to be £33 or £23, depending on my employer or the bank.
Rob
As VM go to great pains to regularly rewrite there TOS so as to absolve them totally of any accountability for any shortcomings whatsoever with the service or lack of that they endeavour to provide, do you really think that they would give a toss at any representation you might make.
The only thing that might make VM take notice is when the numbers leaving exceed the numbers joining. But even then I fear the rot has gone too far. I doubt thay have the resources to do anything about it even if they had the desire.
VM tried to run with the LLU providers and fell over, now it can't get back up.
Having moved over to Virgin recently from ADSL I prefer this method of traffic limiting to that imposed by most DSL providers. Either hard caps hidden behind a 'fair use policy' so you don't know what 'the limit' is. Or, visible and limited caps of 20Gb a month (for e.g.) - I've just downloaded a Linux DVD, that would have been more than a quater of my bandwidth gone on my previous ISP which I was paying the same amount for.
Now on 20Mb cable and wihle the STM is annoying... as the peak hours are those I'm actually in and wanting to use the internet, at least if I should hit the cap I can still use the internet, unlike DSL Stuff where you hit the limit, you either have to pay more or wait till next month.
IMO playing games won't upload 1Gb in 5hrs, only way you'd regularly upload over the 1GB cap on 20Mb is to be P2Ping constantly. Games are designed to work on relatively limited bandwidth (broadband is anything 512k down, 256k up and above).
Mick Fisher
10-11-2007, 14:10
Having moved over to Virgin recently from ADSL I prefer this method of traffic limiting to that imposed by most DSL providers. Either hard caps hidden behind a 'fair use policy' so you don't know what 'the limit' is. Or, visible and limited caps of 20Gb a month (for e.g.) - I've just downloaded a Linux DVD, that would have been more than a quater of my bandwidth gone on my previous ISP which I was paying the same amount for.
Now on 20Mb cable and wihle the STM is annoying... as the peak hours are those I'm actually in and wanting to use the internet, at least if I should hit the cap I can still use the internet, unlike DSL Stuff where you hit the limit, you either have to pay more or wait till next month.
IMO playing games won't upload 1Gb in 5hrs, only way you'd regularly upload over the 1GB cap on 20Mb is to be P2Ping constantly. Games are designed to work on relatively limited bandwidth (broadband is anything 512k down, 256k up and above).
I thought the STM limits were 4gig in 8hours (16.00 till Midnight)
the ones mentioned in this thread for upload - not download.
afaik the download stm is 3GB in 8hrs (on 20Mb). This is a little low, its easy to download a linux dvd at 4GB and pass through it, but the internet is still usable once capped so its not a massive issue, only a little annoyance,
Mick Fisher
10-11-2007, 15:09
Ah right, thanks for explaining Tim. Guess I forgot what the thread was all about. :)
Could someone please provide the info for, or a link to the info regarding download and upload speeds for virgin media customers now? I don't even know what my upload speed should be anymore; i used to work on a 1/8th of download speed assumption, but i aint getting anything near to that..
Thanks!
Ziso!
20Mb down should be 768Kb up.
4Mb down should be 384Kb up.
2Mb down should be 256Kb up
---------- Post added at 18:14 ---------- Previous post was at 18:14 ----------
as an extra - if your Virgin.net DSL you get up to 8Mb down, and up to 1Mb up.
slowcoach
11-11-2007, 18:53
Does the STM really come into it?
Sun, 11 Nov 2007 18:45:18 GMT
Test 1: 1024K took 7925 ms = 129.2 KB/sec, approx 1065 Kbps, 1.04 Mbps
Test 2: 1024K took 8187 ms = 125.1 KB/sec, approx 1031 Kbps, 1.01 Mbps
Test 3: 1024K took 7571 ms = 135.3 KB/sec, approx 1115 Kbps, 1.09 Mbps
Test 4: 2048K took 13531 ms = 151.4 KB/sec, approx 1248 Kbps, 1.22 Mbps
Overall Average Speed = approx 1115 Kbps, 1.09 Mbps :rolleyes:
During the curfew I would have a job triggering the STM.
By 11.30pm I am usually approaching 10Meg and by 2.00pm I am around the 19Meg mark.
VM, the Northern Rock of the broadband world. :monkey:
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