View Full Version : No call refunds change of policy
Customers who call the 25ppm support line are not to get their call charges refunded now if their connection problem is a result of STM and/or any other trial that is in place.
Does that appropriate action include refunding the call costs incurred by an affected customer to find out why the speeds are slower than expected or have slowed down sooner than the "official" STM should have kicked in?
Any trials we do of traffic management are covered by section B(4,i)
of the terms and conditions:
<http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/legal/oncable/terms.html>
And hence any such calls are likely to be treated as product
enquiries, which are non refundable and not faults.
Alex Brown
Senior Product Manager
Product Management, Virgin Media
Raistlin
10-08-2007, 10:05
<----- Sits back and waits for the arguments/contradictions to come flooding in from those with 'inside knowledge'
<----- Sits back and waits for the arguments/contradictions to come flooding in from those with 'inside knowledge'
Well nobody can deny that this is a ripoff! :D
I'm confused - what policy has changed?
I'm confused - what policy has changed?
We have always been told by support in the virginmedia groups that a customer would get the call charges refunded if it was a result of STM. and as Alex has said that trials can and are being done all the time then that means that they are using that get out clause for not having to refund charges.
There is thousands that do not know anything about STM cos Virgin hasn't told them.
OK ... well, further to your need to get evidence to send to OFCOM, I suggest your next move should be to find some specific posts in the Virginmedia groups, from official VM sources, which contradict what you have posted at the top of this thread.
Post them here too when you get them, if VM management are doing a volte face there are plenty of people here who would like to know about it.
mrmistoffelees
10-08-2007, 10:30
Customers who call the 25ppm support line are not to get their call charges refunded now if their connection problem is a result of STM and/or any other trial that is in place.
Sounds reasonable to me, people should be aware of what bandwidth they are using and how much they have downloaded
So long as they are made fully aware of all trials taking place that is
OK ... well, further to your need to get evidence to send to OFCOM, I suggest your next move should be to find some specific posts in the Virginmedia groups, from official VM sources, which contradict what you have posted at the top of this thread.
Post them here too when you get them, if VM management are doing a volte face there are plenty of people here who would like to know about it.
I'll get on to it later. I am out to feed the ducks soon.
---------- Post added at 10:38 ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 ----------
So long as they are made fully aware of all trials taking place that is
As we've stated, we're undertaking any number of technology trials
over any period of time and it's not really practical to provide all
the details as we do so
Alex Brown
Senior Product Manager
Product Management, Virgin Media
slowcoach
10-08-2007, 10:58
The replies from Alex Brown sound to me more like they are coming from a start up company rather than a company which is up for sale as quickly as possible.
brundles
10-08-2007, 11:08
Sounds reasonable to me, people should be aware of what bandwidth they are using and how much they have downloaded
So long as they are made fully aware of all trials taking place that is
How are people supposed to be aware? VM don't provide any mechanism for them to establish this.
slowcoach
10-08-2007, 11:12
11.00 AM: Currently at 1 meg from VM and normally fast outside sites. Roll on the curfew hours. :rolleyes:
mrmistoffelees
10-08-2007, 11:15
How are people supposed to be aware? VM don't provide any mechanism for them to establish this.
There is plenty of free software available for people to monitor bandwith usage.
I would of hoped people have got enough common sense to realise that with STM if they want to stay on the right side of it that they should have something in place ?
brundles
10-08-2007, 11:24
Here we go again :(
That's only good for monitoring a single PC. How do you propose to monitor the usage for Joe Blogs on his Xbox 360 and his kids on their PS3? Or the ATA running two VOIP lines?
mrmistoffelees
10-08-2007, 11:30
Here we go again :(
That's only good for monitoring a single PC. How do you propose to monitor the usage for Joe Blogs on his Xbox 360 and his kids on their PS3? Or the ATA running two VOIP lines?
You're telling me that there is no free software that can monitor all traffic over a network ?
Odd :confused:
brundles
10-08-2007, 11:33
There is, IF the router (or preferabbly the modem) supports SNMP (which I believe got switched off a while back on NTL modems) and the user is savvy enough to work it all out.
But why should Joe Blogs who doesn't care how his broadband works (he just wants it to work without having to learn about "all this computer stuff") have to worry about that?
mrmistoffelees
10-08-2007, 11:37
There is, IF the router (or preferabbly the modem) supports SNMP (which I believe got switched off a while back on NTL modems) and the user is savvy enough to work it all out.
But why should Joe Blogs who doesn't care how his broadband works (he just wants it to work without having to learn about "all this computer stuff") have to worry about that?
Because it is their responsibility perhaps ??
I dont care how my car works however I know that if I want it work properly it needs to be serviced and looked after. So I have two choices, learn how to do it myself or pay someone to do it for me.
Spot the similarities ?
slowcoach
10-08-2007, 11:42
Don't worry, things are going to improve when the Virgin Team move in.
pimp: :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
Because it is their responsibility perhaps ??
I dont care how my car works however I know that if I want it work properly it needs to be serviced and looked after. So I have two choices, learn how to do it myself or pay someone to do it for me.
Spot the similarities ?
But aint the modem and cablebox only rented start messing about with these and your in the s**te unlike your car which is yours so there are no similarities at all as WE only rent the modem and cablebox and why should we start paying for phonecalls if the virginmedia equipement devevelops a fault, virginmedia is intent on ripping its customers off no matter what
mrmistoffelees
10-08-2007, 12:17
But aint the modem and cablebox only rented start messing about with these and your in the s**te unlike your car which is yours so there are no similarities at all as WE only rent the modem and cablebox and why should we start paying for phonecalls if the virginmedia equipement devevelops a fault, virginmedia is intent on ripping its customers off no matter what
Im not takling about mucking around with your cablemodem im talking about placing diagnostic software on your PC which can monitor your entire LAN There's decent stuff availble for $39 which is peanuts to pay there is also free stuff too.
Actually start mucking around with your car while its in warranty and you will find yourself in bother also
There's to many people who will not accept responisbility for their actions. Left to it's own devices the cable modem probably generates insignicfcant amounts of traffic. However once WE as consumers start consuming bandwidth then surely it's our own responsibility and in our own best interests to monitor our own usage.
There is a lot of things that VM can be blamed for, this is not one of them.
Christ on a 'king bike! :mad:
It's Groundhog Day again.
Same old arguments...same old assertions of "I'm right, you're wrong"...same old inability to accept another point of view.
Phew, I feel better now:D Not aimed at anyone in particular, but just needed to get it off my chest. However, if you feel a swell if indignation and bile rising, maybe you are culpable.
However once WE as consumers start consuming bandwidth then surely it's our own responsibility and in our own best interests to monitor our own usage.
There is a lot of things that VM can be blamed for, this is not one of them.
Why should we start monitoring useage virginmedia broadband download is unlimited.Definition of unlimited :-
1. Having no restrictions or controls: an unlimited travel ticket.
2. Having or seeming to have no boundaries; infinite: an unlimited horizon.
3. Without qualification or exception; absolute: unlimited self-confidence.
mrmistoffelees
10-08-2007, 12:33
Why should we start monitoring useage virginmedia broadband is unlimited.Definition of unlimited :-
1. Having no restrictions or controls: an unlimited travel ticket.
2. Having or seeming to have no boundaries; infinite: an unlimited horizon.
3. Without qualification or exception; absolute: unlimited self-confidence.
The amount you can download is unlimited, It's the speed you download it at that can be limited.
What is the problem ? Where have VM said your speed is unlimited ? I don't remember seeing anything suggesting they have said.
Or, maybe it's people being naive and not checking things out ?
anyway we should get back on topic
The amount you can download is unlimited, It's the speed you download it at that can be limited.
What is the problem ? Where have VM said your speed is unlimited ? I don't remember seeing anything suggesting they have said.
Or, maybe it's people being naive and not checking things out ?
That statement contradicts itself
As soon as they apply a throttle to the connection they have therefore limited the amount you can download since had you been able to continue at the higher speed you would have pushed/pulled more data down the pipe than you are now able to do so therefore its a Limit.
That statement contradicts itself
As soon as they apply a throttle to the connection they have therefore limited the amount you can download since had you been able to continue at the higher speed you would have pushed/pulled more data down the pipe than you are now able to do so therefore its a Limit.
There are lots (and lots and lots and lots and lots) of other threads on this forum about unlimited/capped/etc - please lets not let this one become another......
That statement contradicts itself
As soon as they apply a throttle to the connection they have therefore limited the amount you can download since had you been able to continue at the higher speed you would have pushed/pulled more data down the pipe than you are now able to do so therefore its a Limit.
You're mincing words. That's not what 'Limit' is commonly understood to mean and you know it!
evilmonkey
10-08-2007, 19:54
here's the whole thing in a nut shell about charges. NTL/Telewest spent all their money merging. They reduced the competent staff as NTL held the purse strings and put people who could help reduce running costs onto 90 days notice (jobs for the boys mentality). Eventually things start to break and due to less competent staff it takes longer to fix and with no prevention in place just gets worse. The end result is customer churn at an average cost of £55 per month per customer. At a loss of 70k customers thats a lot of money to lose, so how do you make it back. Reduce running costs (charge 25pmm for tech support), increase prices on all products, double the cost of a connection fee for making a phone call. Get rid of staff earning over the 23k mark if they aren't essential. None of this is secret its pretty standard practise across the corporate world. In this case it was a gamble that has gone horribly wrong leaving most of the shareholders wanting out, including Richard Branson who is eagre for a sale. The best thing that can happen now is for the old NTL board of directors to be sacked and have a new board allocated by new owners. Reinvest in a lagging network both TV and Internet.
http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,2146013,00.html
The best thing that could have happened in the past would have been for blueyonder to have been seperated from Telewest Communications and become self managed.
brundles
10-08-2007, 19:58
Because it is their responsibility perhaps ??
I dont care how my car works however I know that if I want it work properly it needs to be serviced and looked after. So I have two choices, learn how to do it myself or pay someone to do it for me.
Spot the similarities ?
OK, set the one off fee for me to use my broadband package with no limits of any kind ever and I'll pay it. But while you're charging a monthly service with a randomly changing set of terms and conditions I see it that I'm paying you to provide a way for me to be able to met said terms and conditions.
Going back a few posts you'll see I referred to NTL switching off SMTP - meaning we can't even use the modem (the most accurate point in the home LAN) to track what's been downloaded. Doesn't matter what we know about it.
mrmistoffelees
10-08-2007, 20:28
OK, set the one off fee for me to use my broadband package with no limits of any kind ever and I'll pay it. But while you're charging a monthly service with a randomly changing set of terms and conditions I see it that I'm paying you to provide a way for me to be able to met said terms and conditions.
Going back a few posts you'll see I referred to NTL switching off SMTP - meaning we can't even use the modem (the most accurate point in the home LAN) to track what's been downloaded. Doesn't matter what we know about it.
Quite simply then if you are using a single PC then use a bandwidth monitor, if a router then most now have snmp enabled on them and you can use that.
Or you can buy/ get for free any amount of networking utlization tools
Hardly rocket science to work this out is it ?
---------- Post added at 20:28 ---------- Previous post was at 20:26 ----------
OK, set the one off fee for me to use my broadband package with no limits of any kind ever and I'll pay it. But while you're charging a monthly service with a randomly changing set of terms and conditions I see it that I'm paying you to provide a way for me to be able to met said terms and conditions.
Going back a few posts you'll see I referred to NTL switching off SMTP - meaning we can't even use the modem (the most accurate point in the home LAN) to track what's been downloaded. Doesn't matter what we know about it.
Never purchased anything on finance/HP then ???
are you trying to suggest the gateway/router is inaccurate ?
xspeedyx
10-08-2007, 20:30
this thread isnt all bout vm is not unlimited no it stay on the topic ppl lost of threads bout this issue
brundles
12-08-2007, 12:17
Quite simply then if you are using a single PC then use a bandwidth monitor, if a router then most now have snmp enabled on them and you can use that.
Or you can buy/ get for free any amount of networking utlization tools
Hardly rocket science to work this out is it ?
---------- Post added at 20:28 ---------- Previous post was at 20:26 ----------
Never purchased anything on finance/HP then ???
are you trying to suggest the gateway/router is inaccurate ?
Using SNMP on the router means you need to know how the router sets up the gateways and ports. Having it report back that you've downloaded 700Meg and are approaching your limit when actually 500 of that might be on the internal LAN is pretty pointless. It gets back to the point that while you or I can get this information and use it, the majority of VMs customers don't have this level of knowledge - hence the number of calls you had on "how do I plug in my router" and this stupid charge in the first place.
And as for finance/HP - yes there may be extra conditions - but at least the companies involved don't try telling me it's to help me and all for my own good! Not to mention there is a choice as to whether to buy outright or use HP at the start.
ECW_Original
12-08-2007, 12:30
The amount you can download is unlimited, It's the speed you download it at that can be limited.
What is the problem ? Where have VM said your speed is unlimited ? I don't remember seeing anything suggesting they have said.
Or, maybe it's people being naive and not checking things out ?
BUT the amount you can download IS limited...
Im not sure about exact figures, but say mr dloader could download 300GB a day on his connection, then his ISP starts this STM thing, he can then only download 150-200GB, because between the "peak hrs" your speed is DROPPED, so you download LESS, this is because of VM's STM, so YES they ARE limiting us to what we download, its true, its DAMN true!!!
arcamalpha2004
12-08-2007, 13:02
Customers who call the 25ppm support line are not to get their call charges refunded now if their connection problem is a result of STM and/or any other trial that is in place.
A customer will not get a refund if the call is in relation to deteriorating speeds due to vm secret speed tests?
Yep, can see where vm are coming from there.
Caller " My speeds are down "
Tech " I know, it is a secret trial we are doing at the moment, and in as such you are not entitled to a refund of the call charge "
I am sure that the regulators would be interested in that one.
But as an aside, another example of vm urine poor speed on 20mb.
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2007/08/44.png (http://www.speedtest.net)
No I have no router connected, and not a heavy user.
---------- Post added at 13:02 ---------- Previous post was at 12:55 ----------
There are lots (and lots and lots and lots and lots) of other threads on this forum about unlimited/capped/etc - please lets not let this one become another......
Indeed there are.
But some people seem to think it quite legit for a company to take top buck from a customer and limit their service, if the said company is reducing the speed that the customer is downloading at then that is a limit.
Superfast broadband my ass.
It does not really suprise me at all that VM seem to want to move the goalposts on refunds, as they seem unable (or unwilling) to actually solve a lot of the issues on their broadband network. Last night yet again I lost about 70% of internet sites including VM (although BT was still available - are they trying to tell us something?? ;) ) so I referred to a recent e-mail from them to find out the service status in my area, rang the 0800 number and surprise surprise an automated service told me to ring the premium rate number!
It is because of this attitude (my connection is bad again today as it has been a lot of the time over the last few months) that I am moving providers, BT line installed last week, just checked now and my Be is switched on, so tomorrow I will get this crap connection switched off - and its cheaper for a faster connection.
I only have TV left now from VM and I think the other half is thinking of switching to Sky!!!:)
Georgy Porgy
12-08-2007, 14:57
Everything that the company is doing now is just to save money by taking our money off us and not giving what we expect in return for it. This has been the case since the Virgin rebrand and now the desperate attempt to sell the company on to someone else. :td:
sprattgraham
12-08-2007, 14:59
Wouldn't mind paying if it didn't take twice as long and I could understand what the person was saying !
Because it is their responsibility perhaps ??
I dont care how my car works however I know that if I want it work properly it needs to be serviced and looked after. So I have two choices, learn how to do it myself or pay someone to do it for me.
Spot the similarities ?
A car tells you how many miles it's drivin so you know when to change the oil etc... VM do not have this.
Spot the differences?
If telephoney was left to the EU to work out how much they had spent, the country would be in uproar. VM know when you hit the trigger threshold, all they need to do is to send an email to the account holder telling them they have passed the limit and will be speed binned, or similar. Other ISPs cough nildram offer this why can't VM? Oh yeah, that's right they want their customers in the dark hoping they won't know 'cos it'll effect their statistics of top 5% being throttled.
rogerdraig
12-08-2007, 19:19
Because it is their responsibility perhaps ??
I dont care how my car works however I know that if I want it work properly it needs to be serviced and looked after. So I have two choices, learn how to do it myself or pay someone to do it for me.
Spot the similarities ?
we already pay virgin to do it as far as i am concerned
they should provide a counter if they wish to use limiters on an unlimited connection
but i bet if they did lots would cancel in the 30 days when they have it immediately pointed out that their unlimited connection is limited ;)
VM is gay period. They lied to me many times & controdicted themselves over letters they sent to me claiming this & that. They asked for the letters to be sent in. Big mistake by myself.. should of sent photo copies but they asked for originals so..
anyways.. that was 3 months ago.. they claim no letters was sent out or recieved..
The argument was, I signed up to this or that, no setup fee or charges for equippment. Had the letter stating so. Until they took like £120 out extra than normal which was for equipment charges & setup fee.
They tell you what you want to here, until your hooked & cant get out of the contract.
We long for the day when the law changes which make contract binding to ISP a thing of the past. Then they will have to provide on there promess or lose customers, as atm.. they know they have em for 12 months minimum..
VM is gay period.
What the hell does that mean ?
What the hell does that mean ?
child speak for not very good i think!!
<snip>.
Did you cancel within 30 days of installation?
mrmistoffelees
13-08-2007, 14:38
we already pay virgin to do it as far as i am concerned
they should provide a counter if they wish to use limiters on an unlimited connection
but i bet if they did lots would cancel in the 30 days when they have it immediately pointed out that their unlimited connection is limited ;)
With some people it's just not worth chewing through the straps. :rolleyes:
Daveoc64
13-08-2007, 15:03
With some people it's just not worth chewing through the straps. :rolleyes:
I'm afraid they have a point.
Most ISPs with a "limit" will allow their users to see how much bandwidth they are using.
This is a home product, not a business product. Users should not have to use corporate scale programs to monitor bandwidth usage.
Then there's also the HUGE part that is what is controversial:
"If Virgin Media is running a "secret" trial in a specific area that slows down traffic or reduces access in some way, users calling to find out about a problem do not get a refund."
It's not the fact that they are running such a trial, but the fact that they will not tell people what the restrictions of such a trial are (so your argument that people should monitor their usage is flawed - they can't).
So people could find they are getting 2mbps after 1GB of usage in a week on Broadband Size XL, call to enquire and get told it's a secret trial so they are not entitled to have a refund.
mrmistoffelees
13-08-2007, 15:05
I'm afraid they have a point.
Most ISPs with a "limit" will allow their users to see how much bandwidth they are using.
This is a home product, not a business product. Users should not have to use corporate scale programs to monitor bandwidth usage.
Then there's also the HUGE part that is what is controversial:
If Virgin Media is running a "secret" trial in a specific area that slows down traffic or reduces access in some way, users calling to find out about a problem do not get a refund.
It's not the fact that they are running such a trial, but the fact that they will not tell people what the restrictions of such a trial are (so your argument that people should monitor their usage is flawed - they can't).
Before this thread gets locked, might I suggest we move this discussion to another relevant thread ? Whereupon I'll be more than happy to explain where you are incorrect.
Daveoc64
13-08-2007, 15:08
Before this thread gets locked, might I suggest we move this discussion to another relevant thread ? Whereupon I'll be more than happy to explain where you are incorrect.
I don't want to because I don't really give two hoots about the bandwidth monitor.
It's not relevant.
However the part about call charge refunds is so there is no reason for a new thread.
mrmistoffelees
13-08-2007, 15:11
I don't want to because I don't really give two hoots about the bandwidth monitor.
It's not relevant.
However the part about call charge refunds is so there is no reason for a new thread.
If you actually think about it, it's very relevant.
Stop discussing thread moderation please. :)
Daveoc64
13-08-2007, 15:13
If you actually think about it, it's very relevant.
I don't enter into these cryptic games, either post something or don't.
You're not helping a constructive discussion.
mrmistoffelees
13-08-2007, 15:14
I don't enter into these cryptic games, either post something or don't.
You're not helping a constructive discussion.
I just have, if you go over your cap and then ring Virgin to complain about slow speeds and it's because you have been shaped. then you wont get your money back. Henceforth it is surely in your best interest to use something to monitor your usage ?
Daveoc64
13-08-2007, 15:19
I just have, if you go over your cap and then ring Virgin to complain about slow speeds and it's because you have been shaped. then you wont get your money back. Henceforth it is surely in your best interest to use something to monitor your usage ?
I will agree with that.
My point (and the point of the OP) was that VM's new policy means that there will be some cases where people cannot know what their limit is and when it can also change on a frequent basis.
Such a pattern of traffic management would be hard to identify and could easily be seen as a fault.
It is not therefore fair to charge people when a "secret" trial (i.e. undisclosed limit, which could vary at any time) restricts speeds and they call to enquire about slow speeds.
It's not beyond most users remembering that if they go over 3GB they will be limited, but for that limit to change on a frequent basis and without their knowledge makes it impossible to keep track of.
mrmistoffelees
13-08-2007, 15:24
I will agree with that.
My point (and the point of the OP) was that VM's new policy means that there will be some cases where people cannot know what their limit is and when it can also change on a frequent basis.
Such a pattern of traffic management would be hard to identify and could easily be seen as a fault.
It is not therefore fair to charge people when a "secret" trial (i.e. undisclosed limit, which could vary at any time) restricts speeds and they call to enquire about slow speeds.
It's not beyond most users remembering that if they go over 3GB they will be limited, but for that limit to change on a frequent basis and without their knowledge makes it impossible to keep track of.
I agree with the secrecy part. Limits should be made clear at all times.
However, as best practice people should use something to monitor their usage.
I find it quite odd, people spend up to a thousand quid building/purchasing a desktop/laptop. Purchase an internet connection and then expect it all to work without looking after it maintaining it. People do need to accept a level of personal responsibility in this though.
May I point out, that whilst it may be true, the only evidence for it being true is a one-liner on the virginmedia.feedback newsgroups, posted by Alex Brown, Senior Product Manager, VM, at 09:47 10/08/2007, thread "Question for Alex Brown re STM on 4Mbps". Nothing to substantiate it has been posted since (to the best of my knowledge).
May I also point out the relevant word is "likely", as in "hence any such calls are likely to be treated as product enquiries, which are non refundable and not faults.".
I think it is completely unacceptable to be charged if you are enquiring about why your speed is slow, and you find out you are on a trial; I would strongly, but politely, request to make a formal complaint unless your account is appropriately credited.
Daveoc64
13-08-2007, 15:30
I find it quite odd, people spend up to a thousand quid building/purchasing a desktop/laptop. Purchase an internet connection and then expect it all to work without looking after it maintaining it. People do need to accept a level of personal responsibility in this though.
I think you totally overestimate the level that Virgin Media's customers operate at!
Think about it, the whole reason they introduced the call charge for technical support was because far too many people were calling them for PC/Networking support!
If they can't get Windows or their router working properly, I doubt they would be able to guess that VM was trialling a different form of STM by looking at a usage monitor!
The other part of this being cheeky is that some users have been informed, others haven't and would only know if they followed places like this site.
mrmistoffelees
13-08-2007, 15:43
I think you totally overestimate the level that Virgin Media's customers operate at!
Think about it, the whole reason they introduced the call charge for technical support was because far too many people were calling them for PC/Networking support!
If they can't get Windows or their router working properly, I doubt they would be able to guess that VM was trialling a different form of STM by looking at a usage monitor!
The other part of this being cheeky is that some users have been informed, others haven't and would only know if they followed places like this site.
Ok, whilst VM can be blamed for a lot of things. They cant be held responsible for idiotic customers who cant understand who to contact for support surely ?
I think you totally overestimate the level that Virgin Media's customers operate at!
Think about it, the whole reason they introduced the call charge for technical support was because far too many people were calling them for PC/Networking support!
For which Virgin operate a premium help line for! they should just tell the caller that they can't help and give them the other number that they can call for help. Did they still give the help anyway? do they even give the help now on the 25p line? If either answer is no then all the reasons about having to charge 25p to everyone are false!
Daveoc64
13-08-2007, 15:56
For which Virgin operate a premium help line for! they should just tell the caller that they can't help and give them the other number that they can call for help. Did they still give the help anyway? do they even give the help now on the 25p line? If either answer is no then all the reasons about having to charge 25p to everyone are false!
I didn't really agree with the decision to introduce a call charge to the technical support line.
But the theory went:
Too many calls about PC/Router faults or things that could be fixed by customers>Time wasted by VM staff>Longer Queue times>Annoyed Customers
They hoped that by introducing a charge, people would think twice about actually calling and would try the basics first (like rebooting the modem or checking the status line/page).
Ok, whilst VM can be blamed for a lot of things. They cant be held responsible for idiotic customers who cant understand who to contact for support surely ?
Whilst I agree with your sentiments, I disagree with your description (idiotic customers). People are sold computers and broadband as if they were consumer items like radios and TV - you switch them on, and that's all the knowledge needed; in real life, it is a bit more complex than that, and I can understand the "average user's" frustration when things don't work as has been promised, and unfortunately it is some people's instinctive reaction to lash out and blame someone, anyone, when the service/product is sub-optimal.
Resolution - don't know; but it isn't running trials (as has been admitted on the virginmedia.feedback newsgroups) and then charging customers when they ring up to report a problem (and we are not talking about published STM here).
Just my thoughts....... :)
Daveoc64
13-08-2007, 16:06
Whilst I agree with your sentiments, I disagree with your description (idiotic customers). People are sold computers and broadband as if they were consumer items like radios and TV - you switch them on, and that's all the knowledge needed; in real life, it is a bit more complex than that, and I can understand the "average user's" frustration when things don't work as has been promised, and unfortunately it is some people's instinctive reaction to lash out and blame someone, anyone, when the service/product is sub-optimal.
Resolution - don't know; but it isn't running trials (as has been admitted on the virginmedia.feedback newsgroups) and then charging customers when they ring up to report a problem (and we are not talking about published STM here).
Just my thoughts....... :)
Agree 100%
It's sold alongside TV and Phone services, not build your own PCs.
Your last paragraph I couldn't put any better myself.
7@m3 G33k
13-08-2007, 16:07
I think you totally overestimate the level that Virgin Media's customers operate at!
Think about it, the whole reason they introduced the call charge for technical support was because far too many people were calling them for PC/Networking support!
If they can't get Windows or their router working properly, I doubt they would be able to guess that VM was trialling a different form of STM by looking at a usage monitor!
The other part of this being cheeky is that some users have been informed, others haven't and would only know if they followed places like this site.
There are two distinct issues here: (i) tech support call charges and (ii) STM. The OP has a bee in his bonnet about the latter and it seems to me that he is trying to strengthen his case against STM by making some obscure point about tech support call charges.
Why would he do this? I call it muddying the waters, some might call it FUD. There are no reasonable arguments against STM for excessive peak-time usage so the OP attempts to introduce a connection with tech support call charging which can be legitimately argued against for many reasons and is much more unpopular among average (as well as forum-geek) VM customers.
All this achieves is a lot of heat and very little light in a forum like this. As far as I am concerned if you don't like STM then either be a little cleverer in your pr0n/warez downloading by scheduling your P2P client to work outside peak hours or put your money where your mouth is and go to another ISP - please ;). Don't confuse this issue with tech support call charging which is IMHO something that we might have a small chance of changing VM's mind on if we all complain enough.
:rant:
Thank you. :tu: That seems like a good conclusion to a very meandering debate to me.
And on that note, seeing as this thread is going nowhere very fast, I think it's time to call time.
Thread closed.
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.