View Full Version : Unlimited Broadband - The Real Deal
prawncocktail
19-03-2007, 14:08
I have taken a copy of the below from internal mail (which is allowed to be shown and mentioned externally) just to clear a few points up from the Coming Soon thread. The cable broadband is unlimited, no fair use, completely unlimited...
Cable customers
It's pretty simple. Our broadband service is, like we say, truly unlimited. We don't operate any download limits or caps on our customers, so they are free to download what they want. We do not have a fair usage policy.
We do however operate an acceptable usage policy, but this is purely to do with what the service is being used for. For example, if a customer's PC has been infected with a virus, and is distributing large volumes of spam, we will (in full collaboration with the customer) suspend their account until we have rectified the problem.
This is probably where the confusion lies, so just to be clear our acceptable usage policy does not affect the amount a customer can download, only what the customer can use the service for.
Non-cable customers (off-net)
Ok, this is a little bit different. Again we operate an acceptable usage policy (see cable section above), however because non-cable broadband operates on a completely different network (with different constraints) we also operate a fair usage policy.
The fair usage policy gives us the right to contact users to decrease their usage if we believe the usage is consistently above what would be considered residential use. The customer will always get a minimum of two notifications and in reality it is very rare for customers to fall into this category - in fact they would need to be going a bit crazy downloading an equivalent of over 8,000 music tracks a month!
zing_deleted
19-03-2007, 14:12
Then what are they doing testing traffic shapping? that looks like it could be written by Enid
Then what are they doing testing traffic shapping? that looks like it could be written by Enid
To me, it reads as, yes you can d/l as much as youwant, doesn't say anything about what speeds they will let you have ;)
zing_deleted
19-03-2007, 14:22
It clearly says trully unlimited how can a speed limited connection be trully unlimited? im all for correct shaping so im not trying to start a fight im just making an observation :)
It clearly says trully unlimited how can a speed limited connection be trully unlimited?
Unlimited in the amount, capped as to what speed and when ;)
zing_deleted
19-03-2007, 14:26
Our broadband service is, like we say, truly unlimited
lol its political aint it says a lot means nothing lol
prawncocktail
19-03-2007, 14:26
It clearly says trully unlimited how can a speed limited connection be trully unlimited? im all for correct shaping so im not trying to start a fight im just making an observation :)
the amount you can download is unlimited, no restrictions in downloading...
traffic shaping is due to the speed you get to download, that is something entirely different and could never be unlimited, it might in decades/centuries to come be 'like' unlimited speed but could never actually be unlimited, as that is impossible.
the amount you can download is unlimited, no restrictions in downloading...
traffic shaping is due to the speed you get to download, that is something entirely different and could never be unlimited, it might in decades/centuries to come be 'like' unlimited speed but could never actually be unlimited, as that is impossible.
LOL, I think you misunderstood Zings post, what he's saying is that there shouldn't be a cap on an 'unlimited' connection.
zing_deleted
19-03-2007, 14:28
the amount you can download is unlimited, no restrictions in downloading...
traffic shaping is due to the speed you get to download, that is something entirely different and could never be unlimited, it might in decades/centuries to come be 'like' unlimited speed but could never actually be unlimited, as that is impossible.
but its not even unlimited by winthin its bounds the modem is configured to a speed and unlimited would mean as much as that can give you dependant only on external means ie busy websites. Traffic shaping puts a limit on your broadband connection so that email is misleading (your not someone else gonna think im a noob are you ;))
prawncocktail
19-03-2007, 14:35
but its not even unlimited by winthin its bounds the modem is configured to a speed and unlimited would mean as much as that can give you dependant only on external means ie busy websites. Traffic shaping puts a limit on your broadband connection so that email is misleading (your not someone else gonna think im a noob are you ;))
your confusing speed with usage, of course speed isnt unlimited, as i said impossible to ever do but your usage is, 2 completely different things...so the speed your modem runs at, how fast an external website is, how fast your pc is, these are to do with the speed of the broadband you get, not how much you download
Traffic shaping puts a limit on your broadband connection
yep your right but on the speed not usage
(your not someone else gonna think im a noob are you ;))
of course not but experts get things wrong too
zing_deleted
19-03-2007, 14:38
Im not wrong im going on the post it clearly says unlimited but then your limiting it to mean only half of the connection. The post does not say it does not mean speed and limiting the speed of a connection makes it a limited broadband service.
may I again point this out to you Our broadband service is, like we say, truly unlimited. We don't operate any download limits. you see where it takes we do not operate any download limits???? you see that its clear yes? so my net connection can download a dvd in 1 hour yes? if shaped to 5 meg it will take 2 hours yes? that is clearly a limit is it not? and it means I can only download 1 dvd in an 2 hours instead of 2 yes? you with me? that is clearly a download limit isnt it?
prawncocktail
19-03-2007, 14:40
Im not wrong im going on the post it clearly says unlimited but then your limiting it to mean only half of the connection. The post does not say it does not mean speed and limiting the speed of a connection makes it a limited broadband service.
correct, but who ever said the speed wasnt limited? we're only talking about usage here
the amount you can download is unlimited, no restrictions in downloading...
traffic shaping is due to the speed you get to download, that is something entirely different and could never be unlimited, it might in decades/centuries to come be 'like' unlimited speed but could never actually be unlimited, as that is impossible.
That is a distinction that a *lot* of people will miss. Therefore they will just happily download, and when the Traffic shaping kicks in, and their speed halves, they will complain. As they do on this forum.
zing_deleted
19-03-2007, 14:45
correct, but who ever said the speed wasnt limited? we're only talking about usage here
But you simply can not seperate the 2. Im not stupid enough to think unlimited means infinate speed however I pay for 10 meg and when shaped will be limited (again I agree with shaping) and by having my speed reduced that in turn limits my usage
In my experiece, when most people see words like "Unlimited" or "Free" in any advertising, they don't bother reading any further.
So, they may see that they are getting an "unlimited" service, and assume that "unlimited" means just that, not "unlimited apart from a speed limit", regardless of whether truly unlimited broadband is possible or not.
zing_deleted
19-03-2007, 14:52
I think others are reading more into that post, It hardly says anything it goes into no detail at all on what it really means and it uses English that imo can deliberately mean more than one thing. Its a typical answer from a politician we need Jeramy Paxman to question him properly
prawncocktail
19-03-2007, 15:08
In my experiece, when most people see words like "Unlimited" or "Free" in any advertising, they don't bother reading any further.
So, they may see that they are getting an "unlimited" service, and assume that "unlimited" means just that, not "unlimited apart from a speed limit", regardless of whether truly unlimited broadband is possible or not.
i agree completely, just like when they see 8mb instead of upto 8mb, people also dont listen, most people are guilty of this including me...
i once in a previous job i though i would see how many customers actually listened to what i was saying, so i called myself a different name at the beginning to the end, i changed words for different words, very very few people noticed but i enjoyed the experiment nontheless
we live in an ever increasing fast paced world, people dont want nor have the time to listen/read etc and want everything now without thinking about the consequences, of course im not saying this is the case for everybody just an ever increasing percentage of people and im also not saying incorrect or missing info is not always given also...
We know about the "up to" condition. What we are actually annoyed about is that the available bandwidth is not just controlled by the prevailing network conditions, but on your usage. And that the bandwitch change will be triggered by your usage patterns. In other words, they will throttle back your rates so that you cannot exceed the cap-that-does-not-exist.
You know - I don't even mind if they do. As long as they email me first, and tell me "you've used it way too much, we're gonna throttle your link unless you cool it a bit".
What all of us dread is that secretly, unknown to any call-centre droid, a "high user" bit gets flipped. And once that's been set, you can never set it back. Because nobody will admit it exists.
NTLVictim
19-03-2007, 15:55
unlimited adj not limited or restricted (chambers dictionary)
unlimited
adj
limitless, unrestricted, unbounded, boundless, illimitable, infinite, endless, countless, incalculable, immeasurable, untold, vast, immense, extensive, great, indefinite, absolute, total, unconditional, unqualified, all-encompassing, total, complete, full, unconstrained, unhampered, unimpeded, uncontrolled, unchecked (chambers thesaurus)
If you tell me to cool it on my downloads, you are limiting me, it is a constraint.
If you cut my speed in half, it's also a constraint.
The semantics of this debate are very narrow..almost too narrow to be counted.:confused:
So can Zing can download 5000Tb of data without fear of being kicked off VM, As he said, he don't care what speeds he get as we know we will all be shaped later on.
So he won't get booted by downloading 24/7, is that what that means. I think we can all handle 100% rates for 66% of the the day and 50% for the rest.
Does that also mean all those that moan about others degrading their services because they 'abuse it' now don't have a leg to stand on. As they've just been given the go ahead.
Confusing, lol.
i agree completely, just like when they see 8mb instead of upto 8mb, people also dont listen, most people are guilty of this including me...
Personally IMO the upto 8mbit is completely misleading since its actually impossible to get a 8mbit/s tranfer speed though ADSL in its current form.
Fastest IP thoughput that can be obtained via DSLMAX is 7.15mbit/s thats with a 8128kps sync speed.
I'm actually amongst the luckly few that can get an 8mbit sync (well once i got them to remove interleaving which was holding me back at 7616kps sync, dunno why it was on i was getting little to 0 errors)
And like zingle agree with shaping, providing its not excessive, p2p shaped at peak rate i have no problem with but if browsing becomes slow or my ping suffers in games is when i get annoyed.
Anyway the point zingle is making stands it cannot be truely unlimited and thats applys to any connection theres no such thing as unlimited bandwidth, and besides theres no such thing as unlimited storage so even if you could download everything instantainiously you'd have nowhere to put it :p:
unlimited adj not limited or restricted (chambers dictionary)
unlimited
adj
limitless, unrestricted, unbounded, boundless, illimitable, infinite, endless, countless, incalculable, immeasurable, untold, vast, immense, extensive, great, indefinite, absolute, total, unconditional, unqualified, all-encompassing, total, complete, full, unconstrained, unhampered, unimpeded, uncontrolled, unchecked (chambers thesaurus)
If you tell me to cool it on my downloads, you are limiting me, it is a constraint.
If you cut my speed in half, it's also a constraint.
I agree Unlimited & traffic shapeing are contradictions, after all traffic shapeing is a form of restriction. Any isp that use the words unlimited should either stick to their words, or state it is limited in what ever manner they use be that capping or traffic shapeing
Well i would sooner have unlimited downloads and a speed restriction for a few hours than have to watch what i'm doing.
There's nothing you need thats so urgent surely, and even at half speed a linux iso wont take that long.
That is a distinction that a *lot* of people will miss. Therefore they will just happily download, and when the Traffic shaping kicks in, and their speed halves, they will complain. As they do on this forum.
But what about those of us who do not down load masses and still get shapped ? that is another distinction that VM seem to miss................. Clearly not unlimited as it is limited..............
Hello people,
Just thought I'd share what VM have planned for this Summer according to the news article on this forum. Shame I don't live in a cable area. :(
Virgin Media 20Mbit Service Coming in May/June 2007 (Update)
# 15 March 2007, 13:48 by Paul M
As part of it’s Q4 results today, Virgin Media announced that 20Mbit Broadband connectivity will be coming in June, with trials of 50Mbit currently taking place.
The broadband section of the report details that BB connections have increased by 78,100 over the last quater and then goes on to state that 10Mbit is currently available in all areas and that this will be increased to 20 Mbit in June (2007).
No details of price are included so it is unclear if this will be another tier or a free upgrade of the current 10M service. There is also no mention of upload speed, but those on the recent trials report that it was increased to 768K, so it seems reasonable to assume this will be the upload speed for the new service.
Update: 15/03/2007
Virgin have now confirmed the upgrades of the XL service from 10Mbps to 20 Mbps will start from May 2007, and will also see the service increase in price by £2 a month (to £37).
Ernie Cormier, chief commercial officer of Virgin Media, said:
“We want to make entertainment and communications the simple and exciting world it should be, but our technology also means we can offer an ultra-fast broadband service that our competitors can’t match.
“For internet savvy customers who want the best broadband money can buy, our XL service is perfect for speedy downloading and uploading – whether it’s music, videos, podcasts or blogs.â€ÂÂ
rogerdraig
19-03-2007, 21:07
It clearly says trully unlimited how can a speed limited connection be trully unlimited? im all for correct shaping so im not trying to start a fight im just making an observation :)
lol thats the "up to" catch all ;)
---------- Post added at 21:07 ---------- Previous post was at 21:05 ----------
personally as long as i cant get a bigger bill than i plan for i have never worried about speed
if i have to download big files i will happily let it do it while i sleep
lol thats the "up to" catch all ;)
---------- Post added at 21:07 ---------- Previous post was at 21:05 ----------
personally as long as i cant get a bigger bill than i plan for i have never worried about speed
if i have to download big files i will happily let it do it while i sleep
I have no problem waiting for things to download. My problem is if something is stated as unlimited, then it should be unlimited not limited in (for want of a better word) sneaky ways. A true unlimited connection should run at or close to full speed & only run slower due to contention, it should also have no mention of allowed amounts.
It all depends on wether you would prefer a monthly download limit or not.
Personally i'm against capping and even if this sucks somewhat, i prefer it.
It all depends on wether you would prefer a monthly download limit or not.
Personally i'm against capping and even if this sucks somewhat, i prefer it.
I agree this option is better than capping. My argument is the word UNLIMITED should not be used unless the connection is truly unrestricted in any way or form.
Sky are as bad their 16mb package is described as unlimited, then they state FUP applies.
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