View Full Version : The disgrace that is Rangers Football Club - Fans caught doing Nazi Salutes in Israel
TheBlueRaja
20-02-2007, 17:48
I see that the blight on Scottish football that is the Old Firm (although in this case Rangers) has been caught at it again.
I wonder just what SFA, UEFA or maybe FIFA will do this time, my uncorrupted money is on them completely ignoring it and doing absolutely nothing about it.
Bloody disgrace...
http://img400.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2qm0jmfoo8.jpg
Mod edit (Gavin): Large Imageshack picture moved to attachment to improve readability of thread
Please feel free to post this on every single football forum you know to force this sort of crap out of our game.
NoKnowledge
20-02-2007, 18:01
Can you please spell it out for me or PM me if it's not allowed in this forum.
I don't exactly know what to look for or is it the salute thing they all seem to be doing.
I don't exactly know what to look for or is it the salute thing they all seem to be doing.
Yes. The Nazis used to say 'Heil Hitler' with it. Not a very polite thing to do anywhere. Let alone in Israel.
Shadow Demon UK
20-02-2007, 18:23
I think it's a bit unfair calling Rangers football club a disgrace, nearly all clubs have idiot fans like that, i can only see about ten arms risen so it's only a small percentage of fans doing it, let's just hope it's only these fans doing it and that they get some sort of punishment, although that is unlikely.
I think it's a bit unfair calling Rangers football club a disgrace, nearly all clubs have idiot fans like that, i can only see about ten arms risen so it's only a small percentage of fans doing it, let's just hope it's only these fans doing it and that they get some sort of punishment, although that is unlikely.
Spot on, I think it's a bit of an over statement to call the whole club a disgrace for the sake of a bunch of idiots, as usual, it's the minority that spoils it for the rest.
TheBlueRaja
20-02-2007, 19:23
Its consistently happening and yet the authorities do nothing about it, last year they were caught singing bigoted songs by UEFA (and on that occasion lightly slapped) yet it still goes on. Rangers frequently have flag parades at Ibrox, nothings done, they have "flute music" at the start of every game yet nothing is said.
Still, if you think its acceptable so be it.
The ones doing the right handed nazi salut should be banned for life from every football statium in the country.
Its consistently happening and yet the authorities do nothing about it, last year they were caught singing bigoted songs by UEFA (and on that occasion lightly slapped) yet it still goes on. Rangers frequently have flag parades at Ibrox, nothings done, they have "flute music" at the start of every game yet nothing is said.
Still, if you think its acceptable so be it.
I didn't sat it was " acceptable " only that you have labeled the whole club.
IMO, I think the reality is somewhere in the middle between TBR and SDUK. Ultimately this is Rangers' responsibility as a club, but I don't think any other clubs can really claim the high ground with this.
pedantic
20-02-2007, 19:47
I'm a little confused here.
That game was played on Wednesday 14th Feb (last week) why has the pic only just started to show it's ugly head ?
Please tell me, this has nothing to do with results from 4 days later (http://www.sportinglife.com/football/scottishpremier/results/results200702.html). ;)
Or perhaps that's just the cynic in me. :D
Niles Crane
20-02-2007, 19:49
IMO, I think the reality is somewhere in the middle between TBR and SDUK. Ultimately this is Rangers' responsibility as a club, but I don't think any other clubs can really claim the high ground with this.
Livorno probably could. Their ultras are basically communists and anarchists (http://www.ultras.se/mentalitet/livorno/105-0506_IMG.jpg). Of course, not to say they don't involve themselves with other types of inappropriate behaviour.
Plus you never seem to get any racism problems with clubs like Spurs, Arsenal, Lyon etc. Not likely to either, considering the history of these clubs, their location, their fanbase, and their squads.
Shadow Demon UK
20-02-2007, 20:47
Still, if you think its acceptable so be it.
:rolleyes: Yes, that's what we all said.
Nazi salute?
There is one guy (bottom left corner) who is displaying an Israeli flag, he must be highly confused then. :dozey:
Anyway the fans official explanation is that it's related to the red hand of Ulster and the clubs links to N. Ireland.
Still no place for it in football IMO but lets not get all caught up in the 'Rangers fans are Nazi's' hysteria.
Rangers aren't perfect but like all big clubs they have some poor examples of humanity amongst the support. Celtic, Hearts, Hibs, Kilmarnock all have form for signing bigotted songs.
Please tell me, this has nothing to do with results from 4 days later.
As if that could be anything to do with it... ;)
TheBlueRaja
21-02-2007, 10:59
Nazi salute?
There is one guy (bottom left corner) who is displaying an Israeli flag, he must be highly confused then. :dozey:
Anyway the fans official explanation is that it's related to the red hand of Ulster and the clubs links to N. Ireland.
Still no place for it in football IMO but lets not get all caught up in the 'Rangers fans are Nazi's' hysteria.
Rangers aren't perfect but like all big clubs they have some poor examples of humanity amongst the support. Celtic, Hearts, Hibs, Kilmarnock all have form for signing bigotted songs.
As if that could be anything to do with it... ;)
Utter tripe.
I has absolutely feck all to do with the Red Hand of Ulster and they (you? - Notes where your from) know it, http://www.loyalistfm.net/new/articles.php?p=1396, if it did im sure they would have considered he fact that they are playing in Israel and that it WOULD have different connotations to that which they say its intended.
Its a smokescreen for these feckwits to take the ****.
Ranger football club have done nothing about this over the years and ARE responsible for the actions of their fans - especially their travelling fans as any England fan should know.
You comment about Celtic holds true although i have to admit they are changing much faster then the Rangers camp. To a (much) lesser extent Hearts have been heard to sing these songs too but Killie? Dont know what your on about there.
The only song i've ever heard them sing is Hello, Hello, we are the killie boys, nothing bigoted about that.
Please dont degrade this by saying this has something to do with Rangers beating Falkirk, this is a serious problem in Scottish football that has to be dealt with.
I noted your Strathclyde Police banner, perhaps if they paid more attention to the songs sung by the home fans, the flag parades and the salutes that they do at Ibrox instead of the away fans who get flung out for nothing that this would still be a problem. :rolleyes:
Its consistently happening and yet the authorities do nothing about it, last year they were caught singing bigoted songs by UEFA (and on that occasion lightly slapped) yet it still goes on. Rangers frequently have flag parades at Ibrox, nothings done, they have "flute music" at the start of every game yet nothing is said.
Still, if you think its acceptable so be it.
How, exactly, is 'flute music' at the start of a Rangers game any more provocative than Scottish international sports events using a folk song about a (very old) military victory over England as a quasi-anthem?
TheBlueRaja
21-02-2007, 11:11
How, exactly, is 'flute music' at the start of a Rangers game any more provocative than Scottish international sports events using a folk song about a (very old) military victory over England as a quasi-anthem?
And the verse in God save the queen is?
Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the Queen!
National Anthem? Although lets not slurry the water with a separate discussion as this doesnt bother me that much.
But Flute music, flag parades, bigoted songs, Nazi Salutes.
Flute music on its own is not a major issue in my eyes, but put all the crap together and its obvious what the connotations are and why there is flute music in the first place.
I'm stunned people are attempting to defend this.
Macca371
21-02-2007, 11:24
Wow. Is this just mob mentality or are these people absolute *******s? I bet many people attending the game had relatives who died in the holocaust. This is out of order.
And the verse in God save the queen is?
Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the Queen!
National Anthem?
Lets see Flute music, flag parades, bigoted songs, Nazi Salutes.
Flute music on its own is not a major issue in my eyes, but put all the crap together and its obvious what the connotations are and why there is flute music in the first place.
I'm stunned people are attempting to defend this.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not attempting to defend Nazi salutes by anyone, anywhere. I'm just picking up on your wider point about sectarianism in Scottish football. The question I want to put is, where do you draw the line?
History is history. We can't change it but we can learn from it. I challenge you, for example, to document for me any occasion in the recent past when that verse of the national anthem has been used (by which I mean official occasion, not at a lunatic fringe meeting of the Home Rule for England Campaign). In fact, if you can show me a hymn or other song book currently in print that even includes that verse for use I would be extremely surprised.
The fact that there was once an anti-Scottish verse in the national anthem is as meaningless in current politics as the fact that William Wallace once went on a wrecking weekend in York. They are both simply historical curiosities that have no bearing on the present other than as a useful reminder that we don't need to do that sort of thing any more.
What is more interesting is how sectarianism and rivalry is currently expressed. Nobody sings 'Rebellious Scots to crush' any more, but they sing 'Send them homewards to think again' in their tens of thousands. It might be argued that the intended context is a sporting one but the SNP would certainly disagree with that idea, especially as they still have an annual jamboree at Bannockburn which includes a wistful rendition of Flower of Scotland.
The point is, how far do you allow groups of people to express their identity in terms of their origins and significant historical events, even at the expense of some mild offence on the part of those on the recieving end? Is the flute music and associated gubbins intended to incite, or is it simply a strong espression of tribal identity? Is Flower of Scotland intended to incite hatred of the English or is it simply the product of centuries of sibling rivalry?
Incidentally, and slightly off topic, Flower of Scotland doesn't get me mad, it just makes me a bit sad. I live in Scotland and I love it here and I think there are ten thousand positive Scottish things Scots could sing about, rather than choosing to define themselves by reference to England.
Utter tripe.
I has absolutely feck all to do with the Red Hand of Ulster and they (you? - Notes where your from) know it,
I'd say its more to do with the red hand of Ulster than any Nazi connotations. Why display Israeli flags and then perform Nazi salutes? I know there are some real knuckle draggers amongst the rangers support but even they would see the irony in that.
Its a smokescreen for these feckwits to take the ****.
I'd agree there isn't any place for it in football but I don't think this was intended as a Nazi salute. Did anyone hear any chants of 'Sieg Heil' or similar accompanying it?
Ranger football club have done nothing about this over the years and ARE responsible for the actions of their fans - especially their travelling fans as any England fan should know.
Done nothing? So the fans banned from Ibrox etc. over the years are just unlucky. I suppose you also get the 'fans' who run onto the pitch and try to handcuff themselves to the goalposts. Rangers are at fault for that too I suppose.
You comment about Celtic holds true although i have to admit they are changing much faster then the Rangers camp.
Wouldn't agree with that. I haven't heard many announcers recently tell their fans not to respond to chants and songs from the away fans like there was at St. Mirren a few months back.
I noted your Strathclyde Police banner, perhaps if they paid more attention to the songs sung by the home fans, the flag parades and the salutes that they do at Ibrox instead of the away fans who get flung out for nothing that this would still be a problem. :rolleyes:
Far, far, far less away fans get kicked out of Ibrox than home fans. A number of home fans are normally kicked out by stewards and have their season ticket revoked at each match. Short of playing behind closed doors what else would you want Rangers to do?
TheDaddy
21-02-2007, 11:40
And the verse in God save the queen is?
Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the Queen!
National Anthem? Although lets not slurry the water with a separate discussion as this doesnt bother me that much.
God save the King, she isn't that old ;)
TheBlueRaja
21-02-2007, 12:21
Snippy..
I think the way to sum up that one is that i dont know off anyone who supports the SNP... Why bother when Scots run the country anyway? :p:
And Derek S, if you really believe that when sections of your own support deny it (http://www.loyalistfm.net/new/articles.php?p=1396) then there is nothing i can do.
However, you disgust me with that kind of bile.
And Derek S, if you really believe that when sections of your own support deny it (http://www.loyalistfm.net/new/articles.php?p=1396) then there is nothing i can do.
I believe it but I don't condone it. I've simply said it isn't a Nazi salute. I don't think there is any room for it in football.
However, you disgust me with that kind of bile.
Eh? What bile?
How, exactly, is 'flute music' at the start of a Rangers game any more provocative than Scottish international sports events using a folk song about a (very old) military victory over England as a quasi-anthem?
Possibly because the "flute music" is to remind everyone about the links to the Orange Order and the marches, which were (can't say are, as I have only made flying visits to Glasgow in the last couple of years) extremely sectarian and provocative, such as this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4679275.stm).
I read a very amusing letter about the Orange Marchers in a paper a few years ago, and would like to share it with you -
"Yes! Let them march, Glasgow is never more pleasant then when those lovely colourful bigots brighten up everybodies day with their message of peace and unity. Theres nothing I like more than pushing my way through their adoring crowds of be-crutched, scarred, burly gentlemen wearing blue, white and red, exchanging pleasantries with you as you pass, enquiring about your education, religion, sexual preferences and sporting allegiancies.
If you are lucky they might even share their Buckfast with you, although for some reason they seem to think people drink with the top of their heads and the only way to get to the precious 'fast is to open it with said head.
I must also mention that waking up with a hangover on a Sunday morning to the sound of hate outside your window is particularly invigorating."
TheBlueRaja
21-02-2007, 13:40
Eh? What bile?
Ok, i'll spell it out for you.
You say its not a Nazi Salute, it looks like a Nazi Salute and thats the impression people get.
I know your angle, its a Red hand salute, well maybe, to some, it is.
But riddle me this, why fly all the way to Israel and stand there on the terracing giving a Red hand salute eh?
Why would they do that i wonder, to show their support for loyalists, in Israel? I dont think so, i think its FAR more likely that these embarassments to Scotland and the Scottish game decided to give Nazi Salutes and hide behind the fact that it was a "red hand salute".
I'll tell you what mate, believe what you want, spread your bile but your not fooling me.
The thing is, this is typical of the excuses fans of your club use as cover for spreading their hatred. Over and over you hear it, but the thing is mate, we all know the truth and its time something was done.
God Bless the Glasgow Celtic :erm: :D
ok, I can agree with BR this sort of thing must stop.
But it will take time......
I have seen a major change in the attitudes of the old firm, only about 5-6 years ago, there was normally always a killing because of the old firm colours.
that has virtually stopped, and most of the time you never hear of the warring fans, it is virtually non existent in the main now.
but I do agree that certain fans will still want to show off a bit and, lets be honest, be stupid.
I think that image is shocking and Rangers (*cough*) should do something about it. Get tougher on the individuals, maybe even reward people who grass them (the real culprits who are found to be in the wrong as in chanting banned songs, flinging coins, racist remarks or salutes) in, by giving such loyal fans merchandise like a free scarf.....
not just them but all teams.
ik
LOL Red Hand Salute. Nazi salute if I ever saw one.
Why would they do that i wonder, to show their support for loyalists, in Israel? I dont think so, i think its FAR more likely that these embarassments to Scotland and the Scottish game decided to give Nazi Salutes and hide behind the fact that it was a "red hand salute".
Why do Celtic fans sing about Ireland and the potato famine when they are away?
Why do Falkirk sing about.... errrrr.... I dunno farming or their wheel or whatever they sing about when they go to away games.
It's what football fans do. Rangers fans (a minority and a shrinking one) do it at Ibrox as well. And I've yet to see a swastika being displayed inside Ibrox.
its time something was done.
Agreed. And things are being done. And it isn't just Rangers. Certainly I'd say it is more of a problem for the West of Scotland but it isn't just Rangers.
TheBlueRaja
21-02-2007, 17:15
Yet again UEFA show how gutless they are, say they accept Rangers explanation that its a red hand salute.
Rangers have again urged fans not to make red hand of Ulster salutes, despite avoiding a Uefa probe into a complaint by an anti-racism group.
It followed newspaper photographs suggesting Nazi-style gestures during their match against Hapoel Tel-Aviv.
Uefa has accepted Rangers' explanation that such salutes related to the red hand on the Ulster flag.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/r/rangers/6383691.stm
A bloody disgrace.
Here's a handy link LoyalistFM (http://www.loyalistfm.net/new/articles.php?p=1396) with their explanation of the "Red Hand Salute".
"“Ahh, but its no a Nazi salute, it’s the red hand salute”
No its not, the red hand salute is non existent, and it pains me to say it, but the red hand salute is merely a symbol which fans embarrassingly hid behind to condone the support of Neo-Nazis within Britain’s shore. It's first appearance at Ibrox (I believe) in the 80's, coinciding with the introductionof the extreme right wing "Chelsea bootboys'" unofficial friendship with Rangers."
TheBlueRaja
21-02-2007, 20:26
Here's a handy link LoyalistFM (http://www.loyalistfm.net/new/articles.php?p=1396) with their explanation of the "Red Hand Salute".
"“Ahh, but its no a Nazi salute, it’s the red hand saluteâ€ÂÂ
No its not, the red hand salute is non existent, and it pains me to say it, but the red hand salute is merely a symbol which fans embarrassingly hid behind to condone the support of Neo-Nazis within Britain’s shore. It's first appearance at Ibrox (I believe) in the 80's, coinciding with the introductionof the extreme right wing "Chelsea bootboys'" unofficial friendship with Rangers."
I have already posted that link twice in this thread... ;)
Which only points out how wrong UEFA are and how Rangers FC have managed to get away with it again.
What sort of message is this?
So roughly to sum up we have:
Rangers FC
Uefa
Me
Most other people
Saying it's not a Nazi salute but rather a gesture made by a minority of the support for dubious reasons thinking its celebrating a link with Ulster and agreeing it has no place in football.
And:
TheBlueRaja
Celtic Fans
Thinking it's a huge conspiracy and Rangers deserve to be kicked out of all competitions and the team publicly flogged in the centre circle of Ibrox.
TheBlueRaja
21-02-2007, 21:46
So roughly to sum up we have:
Rangers FC
Uefa
Me
Most other people
Saying it's not a Nazi salute but rather a gesture made by a minority of the support for dubious reasons thinking its celebrating a link with Ulster and agreeing it has no place in football.
And:
TheBlueRaja
Celtic Fans
Thinking it's a huge conspiracy and Rangers deserve to be kicked out of all competitions and the team publicly flogged in the centre circle of Ibrox.
No we have
Rangers FC
A Spineless Uefa
You
All saying its not a Nazi Salute
And:
LOYALISTFM a LOYALIST WEBSITE and some Rangers fans
Scottish football fans and
The Sun (Who admittedly dont carry much credibility)
Saying it is.
Your deluded, but just to ram it home again how deluded you are...
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/9925/29737576af6.jpg
Please - continue to embarrass yourself.
So roughly to sum up we have:
Rangers FC
Uefa
Me
Most other people
Saying it's not a Nazi salute but rather a gesture made by a minority of the support for dubious reasons thinking its celebrating a link with Ulster and agreeing it has no place in football.
And:
TheBlueRaja
Celtic Fans
Thinking it's a huge conspiracy and Rangers deserve to be kicked out of all competitions and the team publicly flogged in the centre circle of Ibrox.
excuse me, take that back about the Celtic fans.......
Have I said anything in this thread that you are really unhappy about?
I am a celtic fan and did not get involved with hand debate.
I think it is very stupid of those fans for doing that in a country that has a very sensitive regard for that sort of symbolism, weather it is a real salute for the red hand or not.
dont tar the celtic fans, not many have said anything on this thread.....
Now what was it Shakespeare said?
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet..
I suspect that in Israel the audience would fail utterly to see any difference between a nazi or red hand salute IF they even appreciated that there were two such similar salutes.They MUST have KNOWN what the impression would be unless they are cretins.:rolleyes:
As for the rest of the background story I'm sorry but I know little about it except the religious differences between Rangers and Celtic have been known for some time and really have no place in any sphere of influence let alone sport in this day and age..Sport is supposed to be the great leveler and an example to all of fair play and equal opportunity for all participants.
I've never heard of a "Red Hand Salute" I grew up in Belfast and haven't exactly been sheltered to things like this.
Well, I personally think that *anyone* who goes to isreal, and uses that salute (for whatever reason) is either stupid, offensive, or taking the ****.
Regardless of the original intent, it will be taken by Jews (who form most of the population of Isreal) as an offensive gesture.
OMG, football fans on the terraces in un-PC shocker. So what?
I count 16.
Not really a brush with which to paint all Rangers fans is it???
I've never really found any Football fans on the terraces to be exactly PC
What about the English fans wearing German Army helmets at the world cup??
What about any and all away fans at Old Trafford advising Beckham that his wife takes it up the tradesmans.
What about Liverpool fans waxing lyrical about the Munich air disaster.
Who cares???
It's the usual brainless football moron, not exactly a major issue in my world.
but they sing 'Send them homewards to think again' in their tens of thousands.
Yes, and we did think again, then came back and kicked the living Sh*t out of them.
Niles Crane
22-02-2007, 19:09
OMG, football fans on the terraces in un-PC shocker. So what?
I count 16.
Not really a brush with which to paint all Rangers fans is it???
I've never really found any Football fans on the terraces to be exactly PC
What about the English fans wearing German Army helmets at the world cup??
What about any and all away fans at Old Trafford advising Beckham that his wife takes it up the tradesmans.
What about Liverpool fans waxing lyrical about the Munich air disaster.
Who cares???
It's the usual brainless football moron, not exactly a major issue in my world.
Yes, and we did think again, then came back and kicked the living Sh*t out of them.
When people seriously describe Nazi salutes as merely being "un-PC", you know the world has gone truely mad.
OMG, football fans on the terraces in un-PC shocker. So what? If you have to ask what is wrong with visiting supporters making Nazi salutes in a country that was founded by the survivors of Genocide committed by the Nazis, no amount of explaining will make you understand.
I count 16. Out of 100 in the picture - quite a large percentage
Not really a brush with which to paint all Rangers fans is it??? But the fact that one in six in that picture were doing it, does tint them quite a bit.
I've never really found any Football fans on the terraces to be exactly PC mmmm - I've never heard Genocide glorification described as non-PC before.
What about the English fans wearing German Army helmets at the world cup?? I don't remember the British nation gassing six million Germans in concentration camps, do you?
What about any and all away fans at Old Trafford advising Beckham that his wife takes it up the tradesmans. Bit of a difference between mocking descendants of survivors of a genocidal regime and that, perhaps?
What about Liverpool fans waxing lyrical about the Munich air disaster. Bad, but not six million perhaps?
Who cares??? Perhaps those of us who are ashamed of idiots who are seen as representatives of Britain abroad?
It's the usual brainless football moron, not exactly a major issue in my world. Perhaps the people/nation who were insulted may feel differently.
Yes, and we did think again, then came back and kicked the living Sh*t out of them.
And then in 1603 they came back and took over the monarchy. :D
TheBlueRaja
22-02-2007, 21:05
Snippy...
:nworthy:
fruitbat
22-02-2007, 23:17
Well!! Regardless of ignorant morons, TheBlueRaja is clearly a typical football fan - full of hatred for anyone with an opposing view. People like him are the reason why I gave up football.
Well!! Regardless of ignorant morons, TheBlueRaja is clearly a typical football fan - full of hatred for anyone with an opposing view. People like him are the reason why I gave up football.
*GASP*
Surely you aren't thinking TBR might have some anti-rangers glasses on? I would never have thought anything like that ;)
I mean it's not as if anyone has argued the 'salute' is an ill-thought out and poor taste gesture amongst a tiny minority of the support who have a deluded perception it's glorifying a perceived link with Ulster. Oh...
I saw a skull and crossbones tonight amongst the Tel-Aviv fans. Personally I think it's disgusting they support piracy and the great-great-great grandchildren of the victims of Blackbeard should register a strong complaint with Uefa. In fact I think Hapoel Tel-Aviv should be out of all European competition for the rest of the Season. :)
*GASP*
Surely you aren't thinking TBR might have some anti-rangers glasses on? I would never have thought anything like that ;)
I mean it's not as if anyone has argued the 'salute' is an ill-thought out and poor taste gesture amongst a tiny minority of the support who have a deluded perception it's glorifying a perceived link with Ulster. Oh...
I saw a skull and crossbones tonight amongst the Tel-Aviv fans. Personally I think it's disgusting they support piracy and the great-great-great grandchildren of the victims of Blackbeard should register a strong complaint with Uefa. In fact I think Hapoel Tel-Aviv should be out of all European competition for the rest of the Season. :)
so pro rangers then?
and from your earlier post, no proof of the many celtic fans that you tarred, apart from me? cause I was the only celtic fan who posted as far as I know, and reading throught them carefully, I was the only one.........
ik
so pro rangers then?
Maybe... ;)
and from your earlier post, no proof of the many celtic fans that you tarred, apart from me? cause I was the only celtic fan who posted as far as I know, and reading throught them carefully, I was the only one.........
Apologies. Just generalising the other half of Glasgow. :dunce:
I was actually talking to a couple of Celtic Park season ticket holders tonight who were of the same opinion it was a couple of idiots thinking rather than organized Nazi displays.
If you have to ask what is wrong with visiting supporters making Nazi salutes in a country that was founded by the survivors of Genocide committed by the Nazis, no amount of explaining will make you understand.
I didn't ask "what was Wrong" I just failed to see the importance, and I still do. The Nazis were indeed terrible. So too were the japanese. But we have moved on and but for a few brainless scottish drunks I just fail to see the whole "uptightness" of the situation. I bet half of them don't even knew what the symbol meant.
Out of 100 in the picture - quite a large percentage well that would be 16% wouldn't it based onthe localisation of that photgraph. How many were at the ground 5,000 -10,000. I don't know, but it certainly cannot be representative of the fan base.
But the fact that one in six in that picture were doing it, does tint them quite a bit. again to small a snapshot to be sure.
mmmm - I've never heard Genocide glorification described as non-PC before. Ha... Genocide Glorification.......oh dear, oh dear.
Mindless idiots yes. trying to get a rise out of the opposition - yes. Insulting them - yes.
but if a Nazi salute is "genocide glorification" no doubt Freddie Starr, Father Ted, Indiana Jones (and that sitcom with a surburban couple living next to the hitlers) writers will all burn in hell.
I don't remember the British nation gassing six million Germans in concentration camps, do you?
Maybe not gas but we bombed them virtuality into non-existence. I'm not apologising for that but eg. Dresden. we wiped them offthe face of the map. So I could definitely understand why the Germans could be upset about that. Not all Germans were Nazis. But we bombed the sh*t out of them.
Bit of a difference between mocking descendants of survivors of a genocidal regime and that, perhaps?
Is it? is really? If you are out to offend, and that is your only objective - does it matter what the target is?
Bad, but not six million perhaps?Oh I see, there is a death threshold that has to be passed before we are offended. What is that by the way????
Perhaps those of us who are ashamed of idiots who are seen as representatives of Britain abroad? Well thats up to you. Me, I like to worry about things I can influenece.
Perhaps the people/nation who were insulted may feel differently.
And they've been through at lot worse than this, so before you bestoe your anger, and then secondly your support upon them. Why not ask them how they feel. They probably have more pressing issues to deal with thasn wasting time on this non-entity
And then in 1603 they came back and took over the monarchy. :D
Isn't democracy a wonderful thing.
TheBlueRaja
23-02-2007, 09:22
Well!! Regardless of ignorant morons, TheBlueRaja is clearly a typical football fan - full of hatred for anyone with an opposing view. People like him are the reason why I gave up football.
So you condone Nazi salutes and believe that even if it was this so called "Red Hand Salute" that it has a place in football along with bigoted chanting and provocative acts?
I'm betting though your first post was your last.
I didn't ask "what was Wrong" I just failed to see the importance, and I still do. The Nazis were indeed terrible. So too were the japanese. But we have moved on and but for a few brainless scottish drunks I just fail to see the whole "uptightness" of the situation. I bet half of them don't even knew what the symbol meant. So they saw some of the other fans making Nazi salutes and thought "Ooooh, I don't know what they're doing, but it looks really interesting, and my right arm could do with a work-out, so I'll copy them" - do you really believe these guys didn't know they were doing Nazi salutes in order to upset the Israelis?
well that would be 16% wouldn't it based onthe localisation of that photgraph. How many were at the ground 5,000 -10,000. I don't know, but it certainly cannot be representative of the fan base. I could only go on the evidence in the photo - how can you be sure it is not representative of the fan base? What evidence do you have to back up that statement?
again to small a snapshot to be sure. Based on what evidence?
Ha... Genocide Glorification.......oh dear, oh dear. Glad you find it humourous :erm:
Mindless idiots yes. trying to get a rise out of the opposition - yes. Insulting them - yes.
but if a Nazi salute is "genocide glorification" no doubt Freddie Starr, Father Ted, Indiana Jones (and that sitcom with a surburban couple living next to the hitlers) writers will all burn in hell. I don't remember any of the episodes actually being filmed and set in Israel, and as for the Indy film, you must be running out of straws to grasp at to justify your fellow fans actions. :dozey:
Maybe not gas but we bombed them virtuality into non-existence. I'm not apologising for that but eg. Dresden. we wiped them offthe face of the map. So I could definitely understand why the Germans could be upset about that. Not all Germans were Nazis. But we bombed the sh*t out of them. That would be in response to acts of war - could you remind me when the Jewish race declared war on Germany?
Is it? is really? If you are out to offend, and that is your only objective - does it matter what the target is? So you equate the insulting of one person with the genocide of six million - great sense of proportion.
Oh I see, there is a death threshold that has to be passed before we are offended. What is that by the way???? I honestly don't know, but I would hazard a rough guess that genocide is probably quite a bit past that threshold.
Well thats up to you. Me, I like to worry about things I can influenece. What, like racist Rangers fans?
And they've been through at lot worse than this, so before you bestoe your anger, and then secondly your support upon them. Why not ask them how they feel. They probably have more pressing issues to deal with thasn wasting time on this non-entity I have no anger at these idiots, only shame at being associated with them as a fellow Brit. I think if you visit Yad Vashem (http://www.yadvashem.org/) , you would see how they feel about people who glorify the Holocaust (even if it was only in "fun").
Isn't democracy a wonderful thing. If you find, could you let me know? :D
btw, I believe these morons are probably a small section of the Rangers supporters - but why aren't Rangers being proactive and banning them; they have photograph?
So they saw some of the other fans making Nazi salutes and thought "Ooooh, I don't know what they're doing, but it looks really interesting, and my right arm could do with a work-out, so I'll copy them" - do you really believe these guys didn't know they were doing Nazi salutes in order to upset the Israelis?
No, they knew they were doing Nazi salutes to upset the opposing fans of the israeli football team. But I doubt any of them are fully paid up members fo Combat 18.
I could only go on the evidence in the photo - how can you be sure it is not representative of the fan base? What evidence do you have to back up that statement?
I don't but you're the one making the accusation so the onus is upon you. One small photo showing a very small percentage of fans present showing an even smaller percentage of fans with their arm raised and you are accusing all Rangers fans of being racist.
Based on what evidence? That the photo was a small snapshot and could in no way be used to incriminate the larger proportion of fans present.
Glad you find it humourous :erm:
It was a laugh of suprise and disbelief, not humour,
I don't remember any of the episodes actually being filmed and set in Israel, and as for the Indy film, you must be running out of straws to grasp at to justify your fellow fans actions. :dozey:
Oh I see, so it would only be offensive to Jews to parade around as Nazis if only undertaken in Israel?????
That would be in response to acts of war - could you remind me when the Jewish race declared war on Germany?
Was it a measured response, opinion is divided, certainly the war was as good as over and we flattened Dresden to make a point, and my point of English fans forever bringing up the war and wearing German helmets is still just as valid.
So you equate the insulting of one person with the genocide of six million - great sense of proportion. I think it's the likes of people like you that are blowing things out of proportion.
I honestly don't know, but I would hazard a rough guess that genocide is probably quite a bit past that threshold.
Indeed, doesn't explain your double standards though.
I have no anger at these idiots, only shame at being associated with them as a fellow Brit. I think if you visit Yad Vashem (http://www.yadvashem.org/) , you would see how they feel about people who glorify the Holocaust (even if it was only in "fun").
I would hardly call this as "Glorifying the Holocaust"
btw, I believe these morons are probably a small section of the Rangers supporters - but why aren't Rangers being proactive and banning them; they have photograph?
I agree with that.
fruitbat
23-02-2007, 11:02
So you condone Nazi salutes and believe that even if it was this so called "Red Hand Salute" that it has a place in football along with bigoted chanting and provocative acts?
I'm betting though your first post was your last.
How on earth does me describing them as ignorant morons possibly equate to me condoning them?
TheBlueRaja
23-02-2007, 12:14
Took the bait did you.
You said that i am "full of hatred" and that fans like me are the reason why you gave up football. By definition, i presumed that you were referring to this because i opposed the Nazi Salutes and spoke my mind about it when you perhaps believed it was the "Red Hand Salute" and were referring to everyone else on this forum with the same view as "Ignorant Morons", hence my response.
But how does opposing football fans who commit bigoted acts and those Rangers fans who were pictured doing these salutes make me full of hatred?
I despise these people involved as i dont like fact that as i am also in Scotland and support Scottish football that i may be perceived as similar by association by other fans across the globe. That however does not make me full of hatred as you suggest, it only make we want to make people aware that we are not all like that and that this HAS to stop and the current powers that be are doing nothing, or very little, about it.
If you have moved away from football because of "people like me" good riddance i say.
fruitbat
23-02-2007, 12:41
Took the bait did you.
You said that i am "full of hatred" and that fans like me are the reason why you gave up football. By definition, i presumed that you were referring to this because i opposed the Nazi Salutes and spoke my mind about it when you perhaps believed it was the "Red Hand Salute" and were referring to everyone else on this forum with the same view as "Ignorant Morons", hence my response.
But how does opposing football fans who commit bigoted acts and those Rangers fans who were pictured doing these salutes make me full of hatred?
I despise these people involved as i dont like fact that as i am also in Scotland and support Scottish football that i may be perceived as similar by association by other fans across the globe. That however does not make me full of hatred as you suggest, it only make we want to make people aware that we are not all like that and that this HAS to stop and the current powers that be are doing nothing, or very little, about it.
If you have moved away from football because of "people like me" good riddance i say.
I think I’ll just ignore the childish ‘took the bait’ comment.
You seem to have a bit of a problem with reading what people write, in post number 6 you say people find it acceptable and in response to me you said I was condoning it. Both of these statements were entirely incorrect.
However, to clarify it for you, of course I think the people doing this are ignorant morons, it’s just that I’ve seen lots of your posts on football and don’t think you’re much better. As clearly spotted by people, the main reason you’re making such a big issue out of it (and tarring an entire club with the same brush by the way) is due to hatred of Rangers. Most of your posts on football are motivated by hatred of some other team. I’m also glad I don’t go to football matches any more if it means avoiding people like you.
TheBlueRaja
23-02-2007, 15:13
You seem to have a bit of a problem with reading what people write, in post number 6 you say people find it acceptable and in response to me you said I was condoning it. Both of these statements were entirely incorrect.
Point taken, my post in 6 was out of order but with your first post i simply misunderstood your point as you didn't clarify it enough.
However, to clarify it for you, of course I think the people doing this are ignorant morons, it’s just that I’ve seen lots of your posts on football and don’t think you’re much better. As clearly spotted by people, the main reason you’re making such a big issue out of it (and tarring an entire club with the same brush by the way) is due to hatred of Rangers. Most of your posts on football are motivated by hatred of some other team. I’m also glad I don’t go to football matches any more if it means avoiding people like you.
I dislike the old firm, i don't hide that fact but i do justify the reasons for it. I think that football in Scotland would be better off without them and I also think that's its time for more punishing measures to counteract the abuse that some fans think is suitable to portray in the modern game and in the modern age.
You say that most of my posts are motivated by hatred of other teams, i don't think that's the case at all at least not in the context that you put it, i do "hate" Man U and the OF but but not in a physical way, rather i don't like what they stand for or the type of fans they attract, I would call it rivalry and banter.
However that has nothing to do with my reason for this thread being here, for too long we have had to put up with this crap and its about time it stopped, that was the sole purpose of this thread. If you wish to twist it into sounding like this is a personal crusade against rangers i suggest you go having a look around a few football forums in scotland where this is being discussed and notice the rather large majority of posters who are in total agreement that this is being brushed under the carpet whilst Rangers do very little to combat it outwith releasing carefully worded statements.
Rangers football club have been tarred with this brush and what are they doing about it? Nothing...
What are UEFA doing about it? Nothing...
What are the SFA doing about it? Nothing...
Yet you try to insinuate its MY fault for tarring Rangers - please.
When people abroad start to see some of this crap that is spread by the supporters of this club then it starts to reflect badly on every club in Scotland and on Scotland itself. Ranger should have done something, UEFA should have said something, the SFA should have done something - they didnt.
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