View Full Version : virgin Media-NTL Group rip off customers
For the past 6 years, NTL and Telewest have been ripping off customers by charging customers up to 25p per minute to call mobiles when the companies only have to pay as little 2p per minute.
Thanks to a member of Cable Forum I finally cracked it as to why call quality is so crap when calling mobiles during peak times and all the time when calling Hutchison 3G mobiles.
NTL and Telewest have been using sim boxes to route calls through to mobiles. You'll know if a call is being routed through such systems as the call quality is very bad and sometimes calling line identification does not show up or it might be displayed as international. Sim boxes is where calls are being routed on the same network so that you avoid paying termination rates.
When calling mobiles from a Telewest line, I have experienced error messages by mobile operators. One was the T-Mobile pay as you go recording saying ''There are insufficient funds available in your account to connect this call'' and another saying ''This call cannot be completed as your account balance is too low,to top up purchase a 3 voucher and dial 444'' and once I was calling someone who was using 3 and a message saying ''Calls have been suspended on this mobile phone and your now being diverted to O2 customer service''.
I'm getting fed up of these messages and the crap call quality, when is it going to stop!
Rarely, I have been connected to someone elses mobile on a totally different network and just once got caught in a cross-line.
Anyone else experienced such problems? If so I think everyone reading this who is experiencing this problem should make Ofcom aware as I believe its illegal in the UK to use sim boxes for commercial use.
More information about sim boxes:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01/12/mobile_sim_box/
Well I only ever call mobiles from my mobile as I get so many free calls a month
That's a very bold statement to make - if true, what they are doing is illegal.
I haven't had any problems connecting to mobiles.
I never use landline to call mobiles, i always use my mobile since i get 800 minutes a month...
... if you believe strongly that they are doing this you should make acomplaint.
Just so you know Telewest & NTL had nothing to do with eachother 6 years ago
Calling mobiles during morning weekdays on all networks is generally bad, but its all the time to 3 mobiles. Often, mobile networks are blamed for it but according to that above link its because of sim boxes and extra equipment.
---------- Post added at 23:15 ---------- Previous post was at 23:11 ----------
Oh I know they had nothing to do with each other back then, well they did in one or two franchises which were Cable London(The i'm in) and Birmingham cable, they were joint ventures after comcast sold them to NTL, Telewest owned 50% of each until they purchased the other 50%.
But both cable companies did work together and share ideas and they also worked with Cable and Wireless.
But now I know why they are the only company apart from Cable and Wireless to offer Talk anywhere.
When you say its mostly when calling the 3 network. I always have bad connections to 3 as well, not matter where I call from, its just that their singal is poor, and their network is poop.
When you dial the number the ringtone is also bad. But when you call 3 mobiles with a ported number (eg-3 mobiles with a ported T-Mobile number such as 07956-xxx-xxx) it works fine outside the peak time zone.
Never ever had trouble calling 3 or anyother network mobiles on other fixed line or mobile networks.
They use sim boxes to route through calls to 3 because 3 is the most expensive for termination rates, but 'we' the customer still pay nearly 30p per min during weekdays to call 3 mobiles whilst Virgin media only have to pay round 5p per min.
When you dial the number the ringtone is also bad. But when you call 3 mobiles with a ported number (eg-3 mobiles with a ported T-Mobile number such as 07956-xxx-xxx) it works fine outside the peak time zone.
So, maybe Telewest's interconnects with 3 are just bad and/or overloaded? As I understand the Number Porting system, if you call a T mobile number that has been ported, it will be routed through T mobile's network, which then routes it to the network it has been ported to. Thus, you would be using Telewest's connection to T mobile rather than 3.
So why do you get error messages telling you to top up? And remember, its to all networks usually peak times when termination rates are most expensive.
The sim boxes which they use must contain pay as you go sim cards, no wonder with all those free sim promotions lately lol
So calling an Orange phone will route through one of hundreds of Orange pay as you go sim cards which the sim boxes contain. So therefore, if virgin media have not recredited one of the sims explains why the calls keep reaching those error messages telling you to top up and i've also heard that static noise too, as i've dialled the number, you hear that static noise and then it has a really bad ringtone and poor sound quality.
m419, you stated you heard this from a CF member - is he/she/it an NTL/Telewest/VM employee, and willing to back up these accusations?
The only reason I ask is that you are accusing NTL/Telewest/VM of fraud
NTL and Telewest have been using sim boxes to route calls through to mobiles
which, if untrue, is libellous - so it might be useful if you could back up your accusations.
So why do you get error messages telling you to top up? And remember, its to all networks usually peak times when termination rates are most expensive.
The sim boxes which they use must contain pay as you go sim cards, no wonder with all those free sim promotions lately lol
So calling an Orange phone will route through one of hundreds of Orange pay as you go sim cards which the sim boxes contain. So therefore, if virgin media have not recredited one of the sims explains why the calls keep reaching those error messages telling you to top up and i've also heard that static noise too, as i've dialled the number, you hear that static noise and then it has a really bad ringtone and poor sound quality.
Three things: First you appear to be accusing Virgin of doing something illegal, so do you have proof?
Second, I doubt that any company doing this would be stupid enough to use Pay as you go sims. Is it not possible you are getting the messages because of another fault?
Third, that basis for that article is from a company that is trying to sell detection hardware. Hardly likely to be impartial, is it?
So if I submit a complaint in writing, can you please give me the address then as they've probably changed prior to the recent changes.
Yeah well, they should sort this problem out because i've reported before and nothings been done.
So if I submit a complaint in writing, can you please give me the address then as they've probably changed prior to the recent changes.
Yeah well, they should sort this problem out because i've reported before and nothings been done.
If you feel so strongly about this, and have evidence, you should contact Ofcom.
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/complain/
I consulted Ofcom and apparently its not illegal for the NTL Group to do this. They said only BT is restricted to do this because of its pre-dominant position. This excludes BT softphone,BT Mobile and voip.
I called someone this morning, and after they put the phone down, I heard those 3 bleeps which nokia phones play when the call is terminated. So how can you explain this.
Ok, so its not illegal if they are using sim boxes, but if they are shouldn't they reduce call rates, it would be better if they did because they'd get more custom.
I consulted Ofcom and apparently its not illegal for the NTL Group to do this. They said only BT is restricted to do this because of its pre-dominant position. This excludes BT softphone,BT Mobile and voip.
I called someone this morning, and after they put the phone down, I heard those 3 bleeps which nokia phones play when the call is terminated. So how can you explain this.
Ok, so its not illegal if they are using sim boxes, but if they are shouldn't they reduce call rates, it would be better if they did because they'd get more custom.
Did you consult Ofcom this morning, because at 23.03 last night you stated
If so I think everyone reading this who is experiencing this problem should make Ofcom aware as I believe its illegal in the UK to use sim boxes for commercial use.
erm, I have had nokia phones since the early 90's, and I have never heard "three beeps", except when my battery was empty (it's in the 6120 manual). This might help allay your fears re "three beeps"
3beeps (http://www.lexcominc.net/q_a.htm)
"3. Occasionally when I dial a number, I hear three beeps and the call disconnects. Why?
A. If you hear three "even" beeps, the network is busy due to high call volume. If you hear three escalating beeps, that usually means the mobile phone is not getting a signal. At least two bars of signal strength should show on your screen to successfully make or receive a call. "
Don't take this the wrong way, m419, but it appears you are shaping the evidence to back up your theory, then changing your accusations when other evidence is submitted.
How would NTL/Telewest top-up all these payg sims? Send one of the CS staff with a list of numbers and a cashcard to the local ATM?
1. I telephoned ofcom at 9 this morning.
If you have or have used a Nokia 3330 or 3210, you'll know what I mean. When you call someone from your mobile and they end the call, the phone has this 3 bleeps.
They probably use pay as you go sims because its more commercially viable as pay monthly sims can sometimes cost a lot more. If the sim boxes have 50 Orange sim cards, virgin media can easily set up direct debits with Orange for weekly,fortnightly or monthly payments with as much credit as they want, so £100 on each sim is enough to last.
Whether Virgin Media use sim boxes or not, they've got no right charging up to 25p per minute for calling mobiles that has poor connections. They must know about it because i've reported several times.
m419
my wife has a 3210, and she has never heard 3 beeps - we made 2 calls from her phone, one to our landline and one to my O2 mobile, and terminated both from the receiving phone; neither time did we hear three beeps (nor is there anything in the 3210 manual).
btw, the first line in your OP was
For the past 6 years, NTL and Telewest have been ripping off customers by charging customers up to 25p per minute to call mobiles when the companies only have to pay as little 2p per minute.
Orange PAYG calls are 20p to Orange and landlines, 40p per minute to other networks. Orange (http://shop.orange.co.uk/shop/sim_connection_pack?WT.svl=406)
You appear to be changing your proposition from "being ripped off" to "bad network". Have you thought that it might be somewhere else in the call journey that the problem is (it could be in VM land, but you seem to be ruling out any other possibilities). Mobile phone to cell (and everybody seems to think the 3 network is pants), cell to Mobile co's switch, switch to nearest switch to termination point (probably over least cost routing), nearest switch to cell to mobile or nearest switch to LLU to handset - lots of factors in there.
I am not saying you are wrong, it just seems you are "shaping" the evidence to fit your hypothesis.
1. I telephoned ofcom at 9 this morning.
If you have or have used a Nokia 3330 or 3210, you'll know what I mean. When you call someone from your mobile and they end the call, the phone has this 3 bleeps.
Most of my friends and family have Nokia phones (including the 3210). I also had a 7110 myself. So, as you can image I have made a lot of calls both from and to Nokia phones. I can't recall hearing the three beeps unless the battery is running low.
AndyCambs
12-02-2007, 12:14
I am interested why the cost from Virgin Media landline phone to Virgin Mobiles are charged at a rate higher than O2, T-Mobile, Orange and Vodafone (assuming that Virgin Mobiles come under "Others")
http://allyours.virginmedia.com/pdf/call_tariffs.pdf
I would have thought that inhouse to inhouse calls would have been cheaper to encourage users to switch to the Quadplay?
Some very good points made!
Its not inhouse at all, Virgin Mobile is just a virtual network owned by the NTL group and T-Mobile UK. Its powered by T-Mobile meaning that Virgin Mobile only make money through outgoing calls. T-Mobile charge the termination rates as they own the network and mobile number. Furthermore,NTL-Virgin Mobile have to pay a lease to T-Mobile for using the network.
Therefore, unless Virgin media(NTL Group) make a deal with T-Mobile to lower or remove termination rates to Virgin mobiles, you will pay the T-Mobile rate and not 'other mobiles'. 'Other mobiles' include Dolphin telecom,Manx telecom,Cable and Wireless guernsey,Jersey Telecom,Mobiboo,BT wifi phones and Network rail mobiles.
However, Virgin Mobile do have the power to charge less for calls to Virgin landlines.
The above rules also apply to Mobile world,Fresh,Tesco and all other virtual networks.
AndyCambs
12-02-2007, 13:10
Thanks m419 for clearing that up and clarifying.
I'm surprised that Virgin Media haven't added Virgin Mobile to the phone tariffs which would highlight the fourth part of Quadplay.
Would be nice to see lower tariffs both ways between mobile and landlines to roll the two together.
Well there is Talk anywhere which gives inclusive minutes to call 01/02/0845/0870,mobiles and international numbers. 200 minutes are £17 per month,400 minutes are £28 per month and there is 800 minutes for around £40 per month, this works out as 4p per minute to call those destinations.
Once your minutes run out you will be charged 3p per minute for calling landlines until your minutes are renewed. 6p connection charge applies when minutes run out. 070,076,07744,07755,0844,0871 and 09 numbers are excluded and are charged at advertised rates.
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