View Full Version : Some help please? anyone with legal nous?
gooner4life
11-08-2005, 16:38
My sister in law received a letter from the council stating that they have made an appointment for her to be interviewed, that she wouldnt be arrested on the premises but that the police would be there and will help investigate the case, they requested she take bank statements, student loan statements, utility bill's for her home address and utility bill's for some bungalow in wales?
Now this was the first she'd heard from them and has never heard of the address in wales, she is receiving housing benefit and obviously they believe she is doing so fraudulently.
When she originally claimed child benefit they said she couldnt make a claim as her parents were claiming for her, it turned out it was different people but there daughter shared the same date of birth and first, middle and surname's with her.
She called the council and asked what this was about and to say they obviously made a mistake and they didnt believe her and advised her to get some legal help.
Where does she stand here? she's never been to Wales in her life, how can she prove she isnt pulling a fast one here?
I would just turn up and state my case.........(with a witness in tow)
gooner4life
11-08-2005, 16:40
Thanks Ramrod, no legal representation then?
timewarrior2001
11-08-2005, 16:42
If they know how the benefit was paid, I suspect into a bank account, then her account will show no payments to her and the account numbers will be different.
Other things to note is that how long has she been on the electoral role for?
How long can she prove she has lived at this current address?
Can she prove her National Insurance number?
They will have copies of the signature used to claim the benefit etc.
Anything else then I suggest there are other people present when they come round, preferably a solicitor. Make it clear if they arrest her, she will pursue it as far as she can for harresment and wrongfull arrest.
Can I just say, that I know of one other person that this has happened too. They hadnt claimed fraudulently either
Funny that i was billed for council tax from an address in N Wales a couple of years ago, never lived there in my life, i eventualy got it sorted, it appears someone used my name and details in some rented accomadation, not sure what happened to them when caught.
dont all benefit claims need your N.I number :erm:
gooner4life
11-08-2005, 16:44
Thanks Timewarrior much obliged, same to you Ramrod.
She is very concerned obviously and is pregnant so she doesnt need the stress, the woman at the council was very arrogant and treated her like a criminal on the phone.
gooner4life
11-08-2005, 16:45
Funny that i was billed for council tax from an address in N Wales a couple of years ago, never lived there in my life, i eventualy got it sorted, it appears someone used my name and details in some rented accomadation, not sure what happened to them when caught.
How did you prove it wasnt you though?
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dilli the CAB have been absolutely useless thus far.
They sent a picture of me to the landlord.
MovedGoalPosts
11-08-2005, 16:48
If she has done nothing wrong, why a need for representation. She's got nothing to hide. From the basic facts you have posted this is a case of mistaken identity or even identity theft where your sister in law is the victim. Simply producing her own bank and similar statements, including the birth certificate and any other idenitification stuff she has should be enough to clear up the confusion.
Of course she should merely present the facts. If there is any adverse cross examination going on, that has a legal basis, warnings to that effect will be issued. If she doesn't like what she is hearing, she can decline to comment, until she has legal advice. I'd cross that bridge if it gets that far.
gooner4life
11-08-2005, 16:50
Excellent thanks Roy!
Greenies have been dealt out to all who it would allow me to the others said I needed to tart it about a bit first :lol:
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If she has done nothing wrong, why a need for representation. She's got nothing to hide. From the basic facts you have posted this is a case of mistaken identity or even identity theft where your sister in law is the victim. Simply producing her own bank and similar statements, including the birth certificate and any other idenitification stuff she has should be enough to clear up the confusion.
Of course she should merely present the facts. If there is any adverse cross examination going on, that has a legal basis, warnings to that effect will be issued. If she doesn't like what she is hearing, she can decline to comment, until she has legal advice. I'd cross that bridge if it gets that far.
She thought it would be as simple as that, however the woman at the council said something like "Everybody tries to pull that one" when she said "i havent ever been to wales in my life and this obviously isnt me"
I would probably get the local CAB to find her a solictor willing to attend the meeting with her - I assume she will not be able to afford one herself.
gooner4life
11-08-2005, 16:56
I would probably get the local CAB to find her a solictor willing to attend the meeting with her - I assume she will not be able to afford one herself.
The CAB have put her in touch with 3 solicitor's so far, all 3 have declined to represent her as they represent the council in one way or the other and feel it would be a conflict of interest.
Assuming she is in England, have a look at the legal aid website - http://www.legalservices.gov.uk/
If she is in Scotland, the corresponding site is http://www.slab.org.uk/
MovedGoalPosts
11-08-2005, 17:00
Remember that in any case where fraud is being alleged, as this is a criminal offence, there would be a need for absolute prrof, not just conjecture. Somebody has matched up two similar paper identities and says they are the same. It shouldn't take much to prove that is flawed. Even a check and comparison on some of the personal details noted on an original application form should identify discrepancies.
Thanks Ramrod, no legal representation then?Only if they want to take things further or if she wants to incur costs this early.......
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If she has done nothing wrong, why a need for representation. She's got nothing to hide. From the basic facts you have posted this is a case of mistaken identity or even identity theft where your sister in law is the victim. Simply producing her own bank and similar statements, including the birth certificate and any other idenitification stuff she has should be enough to clear up the confusion.
Of course she should merely present the facts. If there is any adverse cross examination going on, that has a legal basis, warnings to that effect will be issued. If she doesn't like what she is hearing, she can decline to comment, until she has legal advice. I'd cross that bridge if it gets that far.
:tu:
SMHarman
11-08-2005, 17:37
Remember - to an extent, they are asking questions, you answer their questions, you do not carry on with further information.
Have you ever been to Wales? - "No". for example.
the woman at the council said something like "Everybody tries to pull that one" when she said "i havent ever been to wales in my life and this obviously isnt me"
Did she get the name of that woman? If so, I'd make a formal complaint if I were here because that is defamation, ie saying that she *is* a criminal.
I'd echo comments above that witnesses at least, if not a legally qualified person, are an absolute necessity, also get a tape recorder and tell them when they come round that following potentially slanderous comments made by a member of their staff that she is making a permanent record of the interview.
If they object she should tell them that she won't participate without a permanent record and she has every right to make one.
That should help put them on the back foot to start with.
Then when they make any claims about her living in Wales etc, she should demand to see and get copies of all their "evidence" including forms filled in, bank account details, signatures etc. If they can't produce it there she should refuse to discuss it.
Basically she should not let them pull any fast ones and *NOT* sign anything before someone's had a good read through it.
Did she get the name of that woman? If so, I'd make a formal complaint if I were here because that is defamation, ie saying that she *is* a criminal.
I'd echo comments above that witnesses at least, if not a legally qualified person, are an absolute necessity, also get a tape recorder and tell them when they come round that following potentially slanderous comments made by a member of their staff that she is making a permanent record of the interview.
If they object she should tell them that she won't participate without a permanent record and she has every right to make one.
That should help put them on the back foot to start with.
Then when they make any claims about her living in Wales etc, she should demand to see and get copies of all their "evidence" including forms filled in, bank account details, signatures etc. If they can't produce it there she should refuse to discuss it.
Basically she should not let them pull any fast ones and *NOT* sign anything before someone's had a good read through it.
bang on but like graham says make sure she tells them its being recorded:tu:
zoombini
11-08-2005, 19:47
Yes, take a tape recorder with her.
cookie_365
11-08-2005, 20:19
Assuming she is in England, have a look at the legal aid website - http://www.legalservices.gov.uk/
Or better still their sister site CLS Direct (http://www.clsdirect.org.uk/index.jsp) - loads of useful info plus guidance on whether she might qualify for legal aid & if so how to contact a specialist advisor
andygrif
12-08-2005, 00:00
Thanks Timewarrior much obliged, same to you Ramrod.
She is very concerned obviously and is pregnant so she doesnt need the stress, the woman at the council was very arrogant and treated her like a criminal on the phone.
Definitely make a complaint to the Cheif Executive's office of the Council - a well worded letter naming the individual will suffice. I'd do this after the event, as it's immaterial to the more pressing problem.
If she has done nothing wrong, why a need for representation. She's got nothing to hide. From the basic facts you have posted this is a case of mistaken identity or even identity theft where your sister in law is the victim. Simply producing her own bank and similar statements, including the birth certificate and any other idenitification stuff she has should be enough to clear up the confusion.
Sadly, it's the people who have done nothing wrong who are in most need to legal representation. From what the O/P said it sounds like the council will be cautioning her, therefore any information in that interview may be used in evidence. It's also very easy for the most level headed of us to get tongue tied, answer questions too fully, answer questions where we don't fully understand the questions, etc etc. As a general rule if you're speaking under caution (for all but the most minor of issues like parking) and whether you're guilty or not, it's always prudent to have a legal rep present.
This is why it is VITAL that she has representation. The local CAB is the best port of call. It is likely that a good lawyer will write a sternly worded letter to the council demanding that they provide evidence of their allegation (probably dwelling on the subject of emotional distress caused to a heavilly pregnant woman) and the whole thing will miraculously vanish.
Hope it all gets sorted soon.
scrotnig
12-08-2005, 00:05
When she attends she MUST take some form of legal representation. This sort of tactic is often used by the police themselves, of you making statements voluntarily without being arrested. It means they can easily circumvent all the usual rights you have - you can still exercise them but thye don't have you tell you what they are beforehand like they do when you're arrested.
A trained interviewer will try to trip you up into confessing things you haven't actually done - whilst this can in theory be pulled apart in court it is far better to cover yourself from the outset and take legal representation in with you.
As for solicitors having conflicts of interest - that's fine, find one that hasn't! There are loads about. As has been said already, the CAB are a good place to start, I once did a little admin work for them on a voluntary basis, they are an excellent organisation.
Also find out who your local councillor is? This is exactly the sort of thing they were elected to sort out! And, to be on the safe side find out who is the councillor in charge of the finance department.
scrotnig
12-08-2005, 00:08
If she has done nothing wrong, why a need for representation. She's got nothing to hide.
If there's one phrase that should be banned in this country, it's "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear".
Anyone who says this has NO experience of the British legal system and establishment.
If she has done nothing wrong, why a need for representation. She's got nothing to hide.
If there's one phrase that should be banned in this country, it's "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear".
Anyone who says this has NO experience of the British legal system and establishment.
Damn right.
Unfortunately :(
If there's one phrase that should be banned in this country, it's "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear".
Anyone who says this has NO experience of the British legal system and establishment.
guilty until proven innocent :td: sounds about right
MovedGoalPosts
12-08-2005, 09:37
If she has done nothing wrong, why a need for representation. She's got nothing to hide.
If there's one phrase that should be banned in this country, it's "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear".
Anyone who says this has NO experience of the British legal system and establishment.
Moving off topic here, but I should point out that I did serve for 15 years with the police, so I do have experience of the criminal system. As a Chartered Surveyor, I also give evidence as an expert witness in civil matters. Thus I do have experience. Particularly in criminal matters, the whole processes are so complex in terms of evidence requirements and procedural matters that conviction is only likely, and indeed a case possible to proceed even to court, where there is overwhelming evidence. Civivil matters offer more latitude as the balance of probabilities can be weighed up by the court and the severity of the matter dealt with by damages.
To return to the matter at hand, if she is cautioned, then yes she should have legal representation. If they do caution her, then she will have the right to stop the interview there and then. Let the council attend, find out what they are actually making acccusations about, and what they want to prove /disprove. It may in fact be something that is very easily cleared up as a misunderstanding.
Sher should go back to CAB tell them what happened about the suggested three solicitors and ask if they have any other solicitors who are NOT connected to the council to recommend.She needs someone to be with her..
Sher should go back to CAB tell them what happened about the suggested three solicitors and ask if they have any other solicitors who are NOT connected to the council to recommend.She needs someone to be with her..
The silliest part of all this is the local councils often support their local CAB because they deal with exactly this sort of problem (saves the council employing several people to do this part of the job).:shrug:
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