View Full Version : Should this be allowed
Florence
05-06-2005, 11:02
I was shocked to read this posted on ISPr by a member:
A hospital has taken down it's cricifix, in it's chapel,to avoid offending other faiths!!!
This was reported in the Daily Express.
All Christian symbols have been removed from a hospital's chapel & replaced with prayer mats
The Express is running a vote on 2 telephone numbers for it's readers to say whether "it is an insult to tear down a chapel cricifix.
surely the correct ay to deal with this is to set another room available for those of Islamic faiths to prey without destroying the way the Christians pray.
What are the members here feelings on this latest madness.
But then you have to ask the religions involved wether they need Icons etc to be able to pray to their God/s?
Its ridiculous pandering to the PC brigade. It insults christians and it condescends to muslims. There's no need for it.
But then you have to ask the religions involved wether they need Icons etc to be able to pray to their God/s?
I don't think icons are needed at all. However I'm interested to hear whether or not these symbols (or indeed the bibles which the Gideons have been told to remove from hotels) have actually offended anyone of other faiths or not.
If this request has come about by a third party then I wish these busybodies would mind their own business.
Macca371
05-06-2005, 11:11
Isn't it necessary for Muslims to pray on a mat facing Mecca though? Whereas Christians don't necessarily need a crucifix to pray.
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There should be a multi-faith prayer room, with copies of scripture and the praying necessities for all major religions.
cookie_365
05-06-2005, 11:11
surely the correct ay to deal with this is to set another room available for those of Islamic faiths to prey without destroying the way the Christians pray.
That has to be best typo of the week :)
purenuman
05-06-2005, 11:15
What is being done for those offended by all religion??
:Yikes:
Isn't it necessary for Muslims to pray on a mat facing Mecca though? Whereas Christians don't necessarily need a crucifix to pray.
It's not a case of Christians not neccessarily needing a crucifix - the simple truth is that Christians don't need anything to pray at all, no paraphernalia is required.
I think some people may be missing what I think is the point here - the subject is not about one faith having a neccessary object removed to accomodate others, it's the fact that the very people who are supposed to be offended by these symbols seem to be strangely silent about it.
lol I couldn't help thinking the typo might be intentional there!
Macca371
05-06-2005, 11:16
What is being done for those offended by all religion??
:Yikes:
Those people are unlikely to go into a prayer room ;) lol
But then you have to ask the religions involved wether they need Icons etc to be able to pray to their God/s?
I don't think icons are needed at all. However I'm interested to hear whether or not these symbols (or indeed the bibles which the Gideons have been told to remove from hotels) have actually offended anyone of other faiths or not.
If this request has come about by a third party then I wish these busybodies would mind their own business.
It would be interesting to see the news article or statement that the thread is based on. I know a hospital in Scotland recently replaced all it's chapel furniture after complaints when they removed them.
At the college I worked at the prayer room was nothing but an empty room with a sign on the wall that was facing Mecca.
purenuman
05-06-2005, 11:17
That has to be best typo of the week :)
A classic.....
Kits please don't correct it :tu:
Macca371
05-06-2005, 11:20
There should be a multi faith prayer room providing prayer necessities for all major religions. The room shouldn't become a place of a worship for one religion only, that is ridiculous. If they are offended then they should grow up and learn some acceptance.
purenuman
05-06-2005, 11:21
Those people are unlikely to go into a prayer room ;) lol
What about a contemplate room (supremebeing optional) instead..
What about a contemplate room (supremebeing optional) instead..
Can that not be done anywhere? Do hospitals not already have such rooms?
Macca371
05-06-2005, 11:28
Yeah, they are called family rooms or something
purenuman
05-06-2005, 11:32
Can that not be done anywhere? Do hospitals not already have such rooms?
Can praying not??
What about those that can not leave their beds?? They manage!
Why have what amounts to a mini church in a hospital??
I'm still waiting for a backup article as I don't get the daily express and their site is rubbish lol.
I take it Kits means this (http://www.ispreview.co.uk/talk/showthread.php?t=18650&page=1&pp=10) lighthearted :erm: discussion
shredder
05-06-2005, 11:40
i read somethig along those lines in the metro yesterday that hospitals are withdrawing the bibles provided by gideons that you see in every hospital bedside cabinet so as not to offend other faiths. gideons responded by saying next to each bible they would leave a info sheet detailing where all other faiths could obtain books relevant to them, but the hospitals still refused.
i read somethig along those lines in the metro yesterday that hospitals are withdrawing the bibles provided by gideons that you see in every hospital bedside cabinet so as not to offend other faiths. gideons responded by saying next to each bible they would leave a info sheet detailing where all other faiths could obtain books relevant to them, but the hospitals still refused.
It's actually stated that it is being done for infection control reasons as they cannot be cleaned if they become dirty, contaminated or have something spilled onto them.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/4605827.stm
Wether this is just an excuse to remove the bibles :shrug:
Can praying not??
Of course that can be done anywhere! But if a seperate place with peace and quiet is available, is it too much to ask to provide it? Nobody really objects to religion enough to want it completely eradicated from public areas surely?
What about those that can not leave their beds?? They manage!
Often a priest will visit them, where possible,
Why have what amounts to a mini church in a hospital??
There's no need to be sarcastic.
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i read somethig along those lines in the metro yesterday that hospitals are withdrawing the bibles provided by gideons that you see in every hospital bedside cabinet so as not to offend other faiths. gideons responded by saying next to each bible they would leave a info sheet detailing where all other faiths could obtain books relevant to them, but the hospitals still refused.
Again, it would be interesting to hear from someone of these other faiths to find out if they actually are offended. I wouldn't be offended by the Koran - I just wouldn't read it.
Florence
05-06-2005, 11:45
Found this on a search I admit its not the original one but it does show it is happening.
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2005/03/02/newsstory6866994t0.asp
shredder
05-06-2005, 11:50
i was just going to post that link paul, and was going to comment is this just an excuse???? i think it is if it was considered a serious vehicle for the spread of infection surely this would have been picked up sooner?
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this is the link i had
http://icscotland.icnetwork.co.uk/news/uk/tm_objectid=15587083&method=full&siteid=50141&headline=hospitals-may-ban-bedside-bibles-name_page.html
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Again, it would be interesting to hear from someone of these other faiths to find out if they actually are offended. I wouldn't be offended by the Koran - I just wouldn't read it.
my thoughts exactly if you don't want to read it you don't it's hardly offensive, surely it's better that it's there and people can opt out of reading it as opposed to wanting want and having difficulty accessing one?
Found this on a search I admit its not the original one but it does show it is happening.
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2005/03/02/newsstory6866994t0.asp
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4312511.stm
Health chiefs accused of "brutalising" the Christian faith for removing a communion table from a hospital chapel have decided to return it.
NHS Tayside returned the furniture to Crieff Parish Church after deciding the chapel at Perth Royal Infirmary must cater for people of all religions.
But following controversy over the decision the health trust has now asked for it back.
It's happening and being argued against, in that case the items were put back into the hospital chapel pending a full discussion by the trust board
i was just going to post that link paul, and was going to comment is this just an excuse???? i think it is if it was considered a serious vehicle for the spread of infection surely this would have been picked up sooner?
They MAY have a point there, and they are allowing bibles to be available elsewhere in the hospital.
shredder
05-06-2005, 11:53
"At the same time, the trust wants to consult on whether the publications could increase the risk of spreading MRSA if they become contaminated with body fluids"
it all seems like a silly excuse to me, i'm personally not religious and it never offended me to have a bible by my bedside when i was in hospital, it just seems to me they are grasping at excuses and it's political correctness gone crazy.
my thoughts exactly if you don't want to read it you don't it's hardly offensive, surely it's better that it's there and people can opt out of reading it as opposed to wanting want and having difficulty accessing one?
Agreed - those who want the whole thing removed are displaying their intolerance.
shredder
05-06-2005, 11:55
They MAY have a point there, and they are allowing bibles to be available elsewhere in the hospital.
maybe they do but what about the newspapers and magazines that are passed around wards,beds and dayrooms? the question then is where does it stop?
"At the same time, the trust wants to consult on whether the publications could increase the risk of spreading MRSA if they become contaminated with body fluids"
it all seems like a silly excuse to me, i'm personally not religious and it never offended me to have a bible by my bedside when i was in hospital, it just seems to me they are grasping at excuses and it's political correctness gone crazy.
The problem with controlling MRSA AFAIK is that you need to properly clean all surfaces that the patient can come into contact with, it's also airborne so if the Bibles were left on bedside tables it would be incredibly difficult to ensure that the area was as sterile as possible.
The spokesperson Radio 4 had in on Friday clearly said that this has nothing to do with offending non-christians.
They have removed the old bibles while they ensure that there is no chance of transferance of MRSA via them.
Should there be a chance, then patients will still be able to request copies of the bible, and it will be recorded who had which one, so that should a patient who used a bible be diagnosed as having MRSA they can track that bible and be aware of any possible transferance.
They are also looking at being able to supply other religious books to patients on request.
So, to summarise
MRSA transmission risk is being evaluated
No matter what the result, patients will still have access to copies of the bible
They will also have access to other religious texts.
Now, could someone please explain what is wrong with that?
Incidently, after the spokeswoman clarified this on the Today program, the next news bulletin still claimed it was being done to not offend other religions, and this morning it was still being suggested by the bbc that it was for the same reason! Bloody shoddy and irresponsable if you ask me!
Florence
05-06-2005, 12:12
The Bibles I am not as bothered about as I know many who take their own in with them so its not a big issue but I do think that to remove the Christian symbols wrong, what next the chair saying that all who use the room should use the mats. What about infection spread of disease then how many different people will have kneeled on those mats. A wooden chair can be cleaned easily the mats are not easy to clean.
I feel that this is going to far the chapels are used by families who have very sick releatives as a place to pray and try to colect their thoughts when a loved one is very ill the last thing these people want to see it all those items that they are used to removed in favour of something alien to them and prayer mats are alien to our religion. If our Chapels offend them then they need another room for their worship.
I am not being racist here but as soneone who has been into hospital and had to track down my sister in law who's husband died recently and she was in the Chapel it gave her strength for the weeks that lay ahead of her knowing he was dieing of Cancer.
Now, could someone please explain what is wrong with that?
If that's all it is then of course there's nothing wrong with it.
The Bibles I am not as bothered about as I know many who take their own in with them so its not a big issue but I do think that to remove the Christian symbols wrong, what next the chair saying that all who use the room should use the mats. What about infection spread of disease then how many different people will have kneeled on those mats. A wooden chair can be cleaned easily the mats are not easy to clean.
The mats are not on the wards and visitors and patients are supposed to use the handwash stations before entering wards. Mats are not a disease control issue here.
I feel that this is going to far the chapels are used by families who have very sick releatives as a place to pray and try to colect their thoughts when a loved one is very ill the last thing these people want to see it all those items that they are used to removed in favour of something alien to them and prayer mats are alien to our religion. If our Chapels offend them then they need another room for their worship.
Limited space means that most hospitals simply do not have floorspace to have seperated rooms for each of the major religions.
Given that Jesus is holy to islam, it really doesn't make much sense to have removed it.
Macca371
05-06-2005, 12:19
Given that Jesus is holy to islam, it really doesn't make much sense to have removed it.
But doesn't Islam disagree with having paintings, sculptures, anything like that in a place of worship, which is why you don't see pictures or sculptures of Mohammed or other Koran figures on the walls or something in a Mosque.
But doesn't Islam disagree with having paintings, sculptures, anything like that in a place of worship, which is why you don't pictures of Mohammed oh the walls or something in a Mosque.
Never had the pleasure of being in a mosque, and unfortunately none of my muslim friends are around to ask, but I'm pretty sure the insides of mosques I've seen in Iran have images of the Ayatollah on the walls, although he's not "worshipped" like some christians worship the crusifix.
As long as they are not worshipping jesus on the cross, then to my knowledge, Allah would know they are praying towards Mecca and not an idol which happens to be in the way.
Unlike some forms of christianity, it's a "you and god" religion.
Do what you like (unless god has said such actions should be punished by man) and when you die it is Allah who will judge you.
purenuman
05-06-2005, 12:27
There's no need to be sarcastic.
I agree and I was not being!!!!
If I was I'd have used an appropriate emoticon.
I have no need for a prayer room or no reason to stop anybody else's having one, as long as there is room and the NHS does not pay.
I was simply asking to find out what people think.........
I agree and I was not being!!!!
If I was I'd have used an appropriate emoticon.
I have no need for a prayer room or no reason to stop anybody else's having one, as long as there is room and the NHS does not pay.
I was simply asking to find out what people think.........
OK I'm sorry, it just appeared to me that you were.
The NHS is hardly going to pay for a room that they'd already have and AFAIK, the chapel/church/faith attached to it take care of the upkeep.
bmxbandit
05-06-2005, 16:06
despite being an antitheist, i really don't see why anyone could have a reasonable objection to bibles being around, or to there being a chapel/prayer rooms/whatever. so long as no religion is being shoved down my throat, what's the problem? :shrug:
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