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View Full Version : Let the capping commence.


Ben
23-09-2003, 16:34
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/22/32978.html

Not looking good imo.

Defiant
23-09-2003, 16:39
Wont last the yanks arn't as daft as us. They'll be a back lash. Plenty of other BB companies out their

Caspar
23-09-2003, 16:44
True..but it doesn't say why they are doing it, really...

...why don't they just expand the service, infastructure, etc...to keep up with us! :p

If they're sitting on $8 BILLION, then they can't plead poverty like some idiots do :confused:


...wonder whether they've thought about online gaming traffic.... ;)

Jerrek
23-09-2003, 18:41
It will not last. Sympatico DSL introduced a cap last year sometime and like half their users switched to other DSL providers or cable. They probably got worried sick so as of August this year they removed the cap AND upped the speed from 1 Mbit to 1.5 Mbit.

The other cable company in this area is Rogers, which has no cap whatsoever.

The other cable company, Cogeco, offers 3 Mbit standard and 5 Mbit Pro packages has a soft cap of 30 GB a month, but they've never enforced it and according to them it is just for legal reasons.

The other cable company, Shaw, offers 8 Mbit standard and has no cap either.

I don't think there are caps in Canada anymore. They tried it, and people left for competitor's products. I'd wager the same will happen in the United States.

El Diablo
24-09-2003, 01:48
I for one would welcome any capping provided that it is to the benefit of a good number of users... <ducks>

Not everyone has 'broadband' connectivity so that they can abuse the software / music industry by P2P sharing. Many people have broadband for legitimate usage. Sure, I download legitimate files from places on the interweb but I don't leave my machine downloading oodles of $music / $software / $porn from the likes of P2P Kazaa or $other P2P facilities.

Think about other users who simply want faster access to the web, speedy download of pop3 mail along with the ability to use telnet and other Internet tools without their connection slowing due to contention ratios and the fact that broadband accessibility is being 'misused' by other users.

The mis-conception that "Well, I've paid $ for #mbs and so I shall use it" derives mostly from the bad ole days of dialup. 56kbs was the most that users could get on dialup and so broadband packages were badly marketed on the basis of greater speed through capacity - which subsequently encouraged users to simply download more mbs/$.

I personally object to the fact that my downstream is reliant on fscktards sharing the same feed and that when said fscktards decide to download half of HMV my speed is greatly reduced.

It's about time people were educated to understand that greater bandwidth relates to greater capacity, rather than ability to download *mbs of, often illegal, rubbish, just because they can.

Sure, there's legitimate uses too, but lets face it, if users don't wise up, we'll all end up with a bum deal.

Oh, and don't expect ISPs to increase their backbone on this basis. Think... bandwidth capacity is only as great as the weakest point in the connection - this mostly being at the local exchange points, hence contention ratios - upgrading their already under utilised backbone will not make a $hit of difference.

JESUS :rolleyes:

:devsmoke:

timewarrior2001
24-09-2003, 10:49
I have a 600K connection.
I'll hold my hands up and say that I download mp3's.
I'll also state that if I like albums or singles, I will go out and buy them.

I dont download movies, I just invested in my unlimited UGC ticket so I'm better off using that and seeing movies as they were intended.
Also theres plenty of cheap DVD's available these days.

I like to be able to send and receive files quickly, I dont have any problems with BB in Teesside, and I have never had any major problems in nearly 2 years of usage. So from my experience I fail to see why a cap would be necessary. I have a basic understanding of how the network runs and I do understand that people share the bandwidth.

Defiant
24-09-2003, 11:48
I really wish some NTL employee's would add it to their profile or do they like to pretend their the average joe customer.

Well NTL advertise all that ****e that has been mentioned even the illegal downloading.

Think before you type

timewarrior2001
24-09-2003, 11:49
Originally posted by Defiant
I really wish some NTL employee's would add it to their profile or do they like to pretend their the average joe customer.

Well NTL advertise all that ****e that has been mentioned even the illegal downloading.

Think before you type

I hope your not referring to me

orangebird
24-09-2003, 12:24
Originally posted by timewarrior2001
I hope your not referring to me

No, I think it was towards El diablo? :rolleyes: if it was...

Defiant
24-09-2003, 12:26
yep

orangebird
24-09-2003, 12:34
Originally posted by Defiant
yep

Can we not start another employee v customer argument? I don't think it's very fair or reasonable to assume that just because someone agrees with the cap that they are an ntl employee.....
:shrug:

Wether they are or not shouldn't matter - it's a customer view on the cap and the way other use bb, nothing else.

Dooby
24-09-2003, 13:03
i think one of the interesting things about this 'cap' is that there is no specified level...at least NTL had the decency to tell people what the level was...I like the speeding analogy...I had used that before when trying to argue that a AUP that had a specified limit was better than one with an arbitrary 'excessive use'...( that DOESNT mean i agree with the level, or with the fact that all tiers had the same cap ) ...

one thing I would point out though, is that while most 'end users' were on dialup, the bandwidth they consumed on teh main backbones was minimal... these backbones have to be paid for and maintained, the heavier users were businesses etc and they paid for it, dialup users pretty much 'piggy backed' on the network...now end users have broadband...they are consuming more and more of the bandwidth...so expect to start paying more of a contribution to the upkeep of the network. Routers, switches, frame relays etc etc are NOT free, hence the (limited) bandwidth that flows through them is also not free...

El Diablo
24-09-2003, 16:19
Originally posted by Defiant
I really wish some NTL employee's would add it to their profile or do they like to pretend their the average joe customer.

Well NTL advertise all that ****e that has been mentioned even the illegal downloading.

Think before you type

LOL! And so should you think before you type!

That's quite an assumption to make Defiant, but just for the record, no, I certainly do not work for NTL. :rolleyes:

:devsmoke:

El Diablo
24-09-2003, 16:50
Originally posted by Dooby
one thing I would point out though, is that while most 'end users' were on dialup, the bandwidth they consumed on teh main backbones was minimal... these backbones have to be paid for and maintained, the heavier users were businesses etc and they paid for it, dialup users pretty much 'piggy backed' on the network...now end users have broadband...they are consuming more and more of the bandwidth...so expect to start paying more of a contribution to the upkeep of the network. Routers, switches, frame relays etc etc are NOT free, hence the (limited) bandwidth that flows through them is also not free...
I couldn't agree more with you Dooby :D
Backbone bandwidth isn't much of an issue here though, it's the access routes to the backbone that become congested moreso.

Anyone know the current backbone capacity of NTL, including its transatlantic links?

With ISPs moving away from Synchronous Digital Hierarchy (SDH) technology to running networks based on Dense Wavelength Division Multiplexing (DWDM), a great increase in bandwidth can be achieved. 2.5Gbit/s backbones are quite standard/minimal with DWDM, since with the appropriate equipment attached to the same fibre, capactities of 10Gbit/s are easily achievable, even increasing upto 40Gbit/s +- the equipment is expensive though, so if users want this, they will have to pay top dollar :D

Anyone know of any networks running in excess of 10Gbit/s at the mo? From conversations I've had previously, very few ISPs are interested in reaching these capacities just yet, since even those that have 10Gbit/s with lots of customers find that actual usage is a mere scratch in the overall achievable capacity.

:devsmoke:

Defiant
24-09-2003, 16:57
Originally posted by El Diablo

With ISPs moving away from Synchronous Digital Hierarchy (SDH) technology to running networks based on Dense Wavelength Division Multiplexing (DWDM), a great increase in bandwidth can be achieved. 2.5Gbit/s backbones are quite standard/minimal with DWDM, since with the appropriate equipment attached to the same fibre, capactities of 10Gbit/s are easily achievable, even increasing upto 40Gbit/s +- the equipment is expensive though, so if users want this, they will have to pay top dollar :D
:

Let NTL put their BB price's up oh mouthy one. Lets just see what happens shall we. Their's some excellent deals out their now for BB and some customers just need a little push by NTL like me :D

timewarrior2001
24-09-2003, 17:34
Originally posted by Defiant
Let NTL put their BB price's up oh mouthy one. Lets just see what happens shall we. Their's some excellent deals out their now for BB and some customers just need a little push by NTL like me :D

And a lot of customers have no choice other than NTL for ANY kind of BB.

orangebird
24-09-2003, 17:42
Originally posted by Defiant
Let NTL put their BB price's up oh mouthy one. Lets just see what happens shall we. Their's some excellent deals out their now for BB and some customers just need a little push by NTL like me :D

Is there any need to be calling people 'o mouthy one'? All they're doing is posting their own views - leave it out. :mad:

Defiant
24-09-2003, 18:03
Originally posted by orangebird
Is there any need to be calling people 'o mouthy one'? All they're doing is posting their own views - leave it out. :mad:

And some want a better service without price increase's being mentioned. I'd love 256 upload speeds for gaming like most others have

Dooby
24-09-2003, 18:13
Originally posted by Defiant
And some want a better service without price increase's being mentioned. I'd love 256 upload speeds for gaming like most others have
most others on cable modems and docsis networks is that or most others on ADSL.... there are reasons for the upstream ratio that have been talked about...

oh, and I want a biggerhouse, and a faster car and a big boat and an aeroplane ... but i dont want to have to pay for it...
:rolleyes:

El Diablo
24-09-2003, 18:19
Originally posted by Defiant
Let NTL put their BB price's up oh mouthy one. Lets just see what happens shall we. Their's some excellent deals out their now for BB and some customers just need a little push by NTL like me :D

Errr... and of course, it's only NTL that will be looking to do this then?? I'm not saying they should put their prices up, just that heavy users should pay for their extensive usage and for the amount of data that they are transferring accross the network.

This could equally equate to low usage users receiving !GOSH! a discount if they use below a certain amount.

Comparing again to dial-up - you PAY for the amount of time that you are connected via dial-up - essentially therefore paying for <= 56kbs for the duration of your connection. Since broadband is always on, they've never bothered to police the amount it is used... although hopefully they will now, since the bandwidth is becoming saturated by P2P users.

So you think you're getting a bad deal on broadband? £25pm? Okay, compare that again to ye olde days of dial-up - ~£15pm [0] would give you unlimited access via dial-up to an ISP of your choosing... errr... see what I'm getting at? An extra £10pm, your speed is increased ~10 fold and your connection is always on... go figure...

This isn't an issue that's soley affecting NTL, you'll find the same with all the others. It's kinda like... oh, this is a crap, so all the passengers get off the no. 47 bus and jump directly on the 52... whoopppeeee.... a great amount of difference that is going to make.

<pedant> "Their" means his or hers, "There" refers to at or in... I think you meant there's, as in there is :D </pedant>

:devsmoke:

[0] Provided of course that you're using a reliable pre-paid dial-up, no disconnect after an hour, no advertising, decent support etc...

Lord Nikon
24-09-2003, 19:10
The problem is now, and always will be that capping for congestion purposes will arbitrarily INCREASE congestion.

I saw on .com a long time back a post that explains why.
Essentially it was that when you cap for congestion, the congestion occurs in peak hours anyway.

If you try to cap this, then people who were leaving large downloads running 24/7 and exceeded the cap, start using the downloads only when they are around, i.e. peak hours. Therefore the usage will INCREASE during the hours when the system is most congested. Even if people are not exceeding the cap.

Defiant
24-09-2003, 19:33
Originally posted by El Diablo

So you think you're getting a bad deal on broadband? £25pm? Okay, compare that again to ye olde days of dial-up - ~£15pm [0] would give you unlimited access via dial-up to an ISP of your choosing... errr... see what I'm getting at? An extra £10pm, your speed is increased ~10 fold and your connection is always on... go figure...


If you check out the threads on here then you would know the answer to that question ;)

Chris
24-09-2003, 19:36
Originally posted by El Diablo
<pedant> "Their" means his or hers, "There" refers to at or in... I think you meant there's, as in there is :D </pedant>

I've been itching to post that for weeks :D ;)

Undisputedtruth
08-10-2003, 01:16
Can we not start another employee v customer argument? I don't think it's very fair or reasonable to assume that just because someone agrees with the cap that they are an ntl employee.....
:shrug:

Wether they are or not shouldn't matter - it's a customer view on the cap and the way other use bb, nothing else.

I'm afraid I have to agree with Defiant. It is all about "conflict of interest". If they are not willing to disclose the fact they are NTL employees then we can only disregard their views due to "conflict of interest". Whether they use the service as a customer is immaterial. However, I can see no reason why they should not speak, even though they are NTL employees.

erol
08-10-2003, 03:08
oh, and I want a biggerhouse, and a faster car and a big boat and an aeroplane ... but i dont want to have to pay for it...
:rolleyes:

He did not say he did not want to pay for it, just that he did not want to pay MORE for it.

the cost of producing houses, cars and boats is not halving every 12 months. If it was then yes I would expect to be able to buy a house twice the size of my current one at the same price as my current one, every year or so. There is nothing unreasonable about that at all.

The cost of moving data around IS halving every 12 months or so, just like PC's have only a little faster in the case of data.

Get it ?

:)

erol
08-10-2003, 03:11
And a lot of customers have no choice other than NTL for ANY kind of BB.

There is always choice

http://www.silicon.com/news/500016/1/6263.....html?rolling=1

:)

Stuart
08-10-2003, 22:34
I'm afraid I have to agree with Defiant. It is all about "conflict of interest". If they are not willing to disclose the fact they are NTL employees then we can only disregard their views due to "conflict of interest". Whether they use the service as a customer is immaterial. However, I can see no reason why they should not speak, even though they are NTL employees.
You are making an assumption that all NTL employees are pro NTL.

Also, why should NTL employees' opinions be disregarded, because they don't necessarily agree with you? Remember an NTL employee who is also a customer can also get crap service. How many NTL employees live in ex-videotron areas? Don't their opinions count?

Chris
08-10-2003, 22:47
Also, why should NTL employees' opinions be disregarded, because they don't necessarily agree with you? Remember an NTL employee who is also a customer can also get crap service. How many NTL employees live in ex-videotron areas? Don't their opinions count?
Perhaps ntl staff should all be forced to wear a sew-on ntl logo on their jackets so we can easily spot them and learn to deride their opinions ... after all, their views aren't worth anything are they? :rolleyes: