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preacher
24-08-2003, 11:07
I was looking online about the new sobig.f virus going around and found an article based from Birmingham.

Part of the article is the opinion of a group Birmingham Computer Experts and states:

Birmingham computer experts yesterday condemned Internet service providers for failing to supply even basic security advice that could have halted the virus attack.

What I want to know (as a Technical Support Agent for a large ISP) is do the 'general public' actually know the basics of protecting their computers?

Many a time I have had someone call me at work complaining about a virus they have picked up and it always goes one of two ways.

Do they have any anti-virus software - no.......!
Or sometimes they do but have never updated it!!!

So what makes it the role of an Internet Service Provider to explain security to a person?

I bought a house a few weeks ago and would not have expected the mortgage company to say "Don't forget a burglar alarm, oh and a fire extinguisher....and you might want an extra copy of your front door key"
The fact is....if you buy a computer, you check what security requirements you have, same as if you buy a car, you learn how to drive!

Why is it that people, whom are usually perfectly intelligent people, become complete muppets when it comes to PC's?

If their printer dies, they try to reinstall their ISP's internet disk.......why???
I find it very difficult to lower my IQ to such a level as to make that decision appropriate!

So what I want to know is.....those of you who have got PC's, be it having had it for years or having just bought it purely for this ISP, know what you need to make it secure AND do you feel it is the role of the ISP to make sure you are protected??

sonygeezer
24-08-2003, 12:06
The answer is most peeps now on line have no idea as an example take my brother & sister in law they wanted to buy a computer for thier children to help with their school work so they asked my advice I worked out what they needed and told them to go to a local computer store with what they wanted and he would build it for them, but no they ended up going to PC World and paying £999 for a package deal not a bad computer but they would have got a lot more for their money at the local store I pointed them too and when they got their new computer I get a phone call to come round and set it up as they don't have a clue as for updating their software well I set the virus protection to update automatic and updated windows but since then they have never updated windows even though I have showed them how to, and when I ask them why they just say it takes to long to download.

zoombini
24-08-2003, 13:08
IMO there is too little informatoion being given to the ordinary joe on how to protect thier PC.
They are not stupid, they are not idiots etc, they are just unaware of the problems and the solutions.

Why? Because there is too little information given to them when they get thier PC.

If you went down to PCworld & bought a PC & they also told you that at the same time as getting an internet ready PC that you must protect it because of all the problems, they would lose a few sales (IMO).

The information IS out there, but if people are unaware about it then they just dont get to it.
More needs to be done (like these recent viruses and the media coverage) to make them aware.
NTl putting the info on a channel is a good thing, although I think this needs to be expanded to perhaps more information on general protection as well as that specific virus.

As for the ISP's role, well maybe yes they should give you more information when you join thier network. Although I do not think its thier job to do it for you (but for a fee?) just pointing you to the right website information and telling you a little in a leaflet etc
would help reduce the amount of help calls they get and problems with users who get infected.

Theodoric
24-08-2003, 13:28
I agree with your general point that some people make no effort at all to protect their PCs but, in my experience, protecting a PC is not the easiest thing in the world, even for someone like myself who has used computers for quite a while. I'd say it was quite a bit more complicated than your examples of a home or a car.

I currently use Sygate for my firewall. I get a number of warnings about various programmes trying to broadcast to various sites out of my PC. These are normally totally meaningless to me. I suspect that they are benign but I haven't found an easy way to find out. Plugging the URL into the OE address box normally leads nowhere. Using a backtrace and Whois provides me with information that doesn't actually tell me anything; now if it said, "You have now reached ww.satan.org. Flee!!" it might be of some use to me, but it doesn't, it normally mentions some obscure organisation that I've never heard of. An example. I have spent this morning using the Sygate tests against various forms of computer attack. After they had finished I checked the security log which was full of attacks that I knew had come from the Sygate testing. Whois gave me some outfit called Verio. Verio? I don't know them from Adam. So I continue with my belt and braces approach of simply saying, "No", when Sygate warns me, but I am probably stopping something that would be of use to me.

Or take this Blaster worm. I've got Norton Antivirus and I've got a Sygate firewall. Is this good enough protection? I don't know. Warning messages are flying around like Armageddon is expected tomorrow, so I have to play safe and go through all the hassle of downloading and installing whatever protection is recommended.

birchyboy
24-08-2003, 20:02
preacher - I bought a house a few weeks ago and would not have expected the mortgage company to say "Don't forget a burglar alarm, oh and a fire extinguisher....and you might want an extra copy of your front door key"
The fact is....if you buy a computer, you check what security requirements you have, same as if you buy a car, you learn how to drive!
Maybe you didn't have it surveyed for faults, including security?
Would you have a different opinion if your neighbour's house locked you out of your own house for hours, cut off your gas, electricuty and water at random, then wouldn't let the postman deliver any mail ?

idi banashapan
24-08-2003, 20:31
well documented, old but this is life (I too work in a call centre as 2nd / 3rd line tech support, but started out as 1st line - this stuff DOES happen and is a good example of a few 'average joes' pc knowledge)....

[EDIT] DISCLAIMER - when I said this stuff happens, I didn't mean the agents reply to the situation, I was refering to the type of knowledge and naivety that is out there!!!!!


This guy should have been promoted, not fired. This is a true story from the Word Perfect Helpline which was transcribed from a recording monitoring the customer care department. Needless to say the HelpDesk employee was fired; however, he/she is currently suing the Word Perfect organization for "Termination without Cause". Actual dialogue of a former WordPerfect Customer Support employee (now I know why they record these conversations!)

"Ridge Hall computer assistance; may I help you?"

†œYes, well, I'm having trouble with WordPerfect."

"What sort of trouble?"

"Well, I was just typing along, and all of a sudden the words went
away."

"Went away?"

"They disappeared."

"Hmm. So what does your screen look like now?"

"Nothing."

"Nothing?"

"It's blank; it won't accept anything when I type."

"Are you still in WordPerfect, or did you get out?"

"How do I tell?"

"Can you see the C: prompt on the screen?"

†œWhat's a sea-prompt?"

"Never mind, can you move your cursor around the screen?"

"There isn't any cursor: I told you, it won't accept anything I
type."

"Does your monitor have a power indicator?"

"What's a monitor?

"It's the thing with the screen on it that looks like a TV."
"Does it have a little light that tells you when it's on?"

"I don't know."

"Well, then look on the back of the monitor and find where the power cord goes into it. Can you see that?"

"Yes, I think so."

"Great. Follow the cord to the plug, and tell me if it's plugged into the wall."

"Yes, it is."

"When you were behind the monitor, did you notice that there were two cables plugged into the back of it, not just one?"

†œNo."

"Well, there are. I need you to look back there again and find the other
cable."

"Okay, here it is."

"Follow it for me, and tell me if it's plugged securely into the back of your computer."

"I can't reach."

"Uh huh. Well, can you see if it is?"

"No."

"Even if you maybe put your knee on something and lean way over?"

"Oh, it's not because I don't have the right angle - it's because it's dark."

"Dark?"

"Yes -the office light is off, and the only light I have is coming in from the window."

†œWell, turn on the office light then."

"I can't."

"No? Why not?"

"Because there's a power failure."

"A power ... A power failure? Aha, Okay, we've got it licked now." "Do you still have the boxes and manuals and packing stuff your computer came in?"

"Well, yes, I keep them in the closet."

"Good. Go get them, and unplug your system and pack it up just like it was when you got it. Then take it back to the store you bought it from."

"Really? Is it that bad?"

"Yes, I'm afraid it is."

"Well, all right then, I suppose. What do I tell them?"

"Tell them you're too f**king stupid to own a computer."

MadGamer
24-08-2003, 23:23
These are the basic steps you need to take when protecting your PC.

1. Make sure your Virus definations are up to date
2. Download the latest updates from Windows Update
3. Make sure you have a firewall installed (Even for Dial Up)

This is the same for the W.32 Blaster Worm

MadGamer
25-08-2003, 17:16
Yes i do think they should protect our PC's as well as having our own security as a backup.

XFS03
25-08-2003, 17:19
Originally posted by Bender
...This is a true story from the Word Perfect Helpline...
Not entirely true...

http://www.snopes.com/humor/business/wordperf.htm

idi banashapan
25-08-2003, 17:26
Originally posted by XFS03
Not entirely true...

http://www.snopes.com/humor/business/wordperf.htm

Probably not entirely true, but my point was that IT support Helpdesks DO have to deal with people with that level of computing knowledge. There really are people out there who have absolutely NO idea what they are doing.

marcsparks2002
25-08-2003, 17:26
Originally posted by WNA
Yes i do think they should protect our PC's as well as having our own security as a backup.

:shrug: who should :shrug:

homealone
25-08-2003, 17:35
judging by the number of port 135 scans my router has logged today (about 10 a minute), there are still people out there getting hit with the blaster worm, even after all the publicity it's had.

So the maxim "you can lead a horse to water....." would seem to apply.

MadGamer
25-08-2003, 17:42
Our ISP's

Rara Avis
25-08-2003, 18:02
Originally posted by Bender
Probably not entirely true, but my point was that IT support Helpdesks DO have to deal with people with that level of computing knowledge. There really are people out there who have absolutely NO idea what they are doing.

What do you expect? Unlike driving a car, you don't have to be qualified or pass examinations to own, use a pc, or surf the net. The govt has pushed, and rightly so, the policy of trying to make everyone information/I.T literate and have access to the internet. If you have the cash, and it doesn't take a huge amount these days, you can get access to the net, but becoming I.T literate takes longer. Let me see, there is the ECDL, but for anyone that's done it and knows, even the advanced exam is cursory and is by no means enough. But it's a start.
Working on a help desk is just just that, a 'help' desk. In my last job, I was helping people off the street with basic I.T issues and this could mean anything from how to set up an email account to web design. Sometimes it was easy and at other times it required a hell of a lot of patience. Not everyone is aware that a simple reboot might solve the problem :shrug: To a novice, when the pc isn't responding, it's BROKEN and they need help.
It's a tough job, but if you can't hack it, excuse the expression *lol* get one that doesn't deal with any ordinary joes.
We were all them at one point :)

This is probably more aimed at the thread starter, sorry Bender DOH!

kronas
25-08-2003, 18:07
you cant put the blame on ISP'S because they are there to provide the net connection its up to the user to adequatly secure there pc with firewall and antivirus software especially on broadband

kronas
25-08-2003, 18:09
Originally posted by Bender
There really are people out there who have absolutely NO idea what they are doing.

yes there are too many of them out there ive had the experiance of that :rolleyes:

Ramrod
25-08-2003, 18:13
When you buy a copy of mcafee antivirus there isn't any real obvious indication on the box that you need to keep updating it.The general impression is that if you install the software you are protected. The only indication is on the back of the box where it says (in small letters) 'internet access for updating' , under system requirements.
Small wonder that people are labouring under a false sense of security. There is nothing on the box to say that you are only buying a years worth of updates either. I suppose they wouldn't sell so many if there was:shrug:

kronas
25-08-2003, 18:15
Originally posted by Ramrod
When you buy a copy of mcafee antivirus there isn't any real obvious indication on the box that you need to keep updating it.The general impression is that if you install the software you are protected. The only indication is on the back of the box where it says (in small letters) 'internet access for updating' , under system requirements.
Small wonder that people are labouring under a false sense of security. There is nothing on the box to say that you are only buying a years worth of updates either. I suppose they wouldn't sell so many if there was:shrug:

thats why you read the packaging nobody told me what to do a bit of research and common sense :shrug:

Maggy
25-08-2003, 18:21
So kronas you were never a newbie then?You were IT literate right from the start.You were internet savvy right away.

It takes time,experience,research and help to become au fait with anything.It also requires patience from those who have already gained experience to show one the ropes.

Incog.

:rolleyes:

kronas
25-08-2003, 18:29
Originally posted by Incognitas
So kronas you were never a newbie then?You were IT literate right from the start.You were internet savvy right away.


yep im the techy one in the house i was the one who started on dial up for a few months then heard about broadband NTL put a flyer through the door saying its available so i started at 600k knowing full well what i could do with it on 1mbit now have been since a few months after that launched

Originally posted by Incognitas

It takes time,experience,research and help to become au fait with anything.It also requires patience from those who have already gained experience to show one the ropes.
:rolleyes:

yep true i do teach others at times frustrating because they are newbies but im patient :)

Rara Avis
25-08-2003, 18:50
Originally posted by kronas
yep im the techy one in the house i was the one who started on dial up for a few months then heard about broadband NTL put a flyer through the door saying its available so i started at 600k knowing full well what i could do with it on 1mbit now have been since a few months after that launched



yep true i do teach others at times frustrating because they are newbies but im patient :)

Well, bully for you, but you were a newbie once upon a time, right? Not everyone HAS someone in the house to help them. That's WHY they phone Help Desks!!
How many people know, ordinary people mind, the difference between 600k and 1mb? If they read about it, it's all jargon to them :shrug: Your household is very lucky. The flyer through the door thing is only valid if you know what you're reading. As Ramrod pointed out, there's small print and sods out there who are more than capable of making a buck by playing on people's ignorance.
The ISP's are there to make money, not educate. There only reason they're making an issue of it now is because their services are under threat thanks to people not knowing how to handle their security.
Insurance companies have done the same for years. Who would have known that their house wasn't covered by their policy because it was in a 'high crime' area? When people claimed and discovered that this was an issue, it became public knowledge and now we check and are more careful. Insurance companies are NOT there for our peace of mind, they're there to make money and will do their utmost to avoid paying up.
ISPs? They'll have to take more responsiblity for the service they provide and give more guidance to their customers, in BOLD print ;)

Ramrod
25-08-2003, 19:06
Originally posted by kronas
thats why you read the packaging nobody told me what to do a bit of research and common sense :shrug: I agree, but the impression that these companies (including ntl) give is that all you have to do is install and experience the wonder of the internet. They don't tell you that you need a degree of paranoia online since that would put people off and their revenues would drop.
This is a very new medium. It is reasonable to expect that a lot of people are not aware of the risks.

ronald146m
25-08-2003, 19:09
Originally posted by kronas
yep im the techy one in the house i was the one who started on dial up for a few months then heard about broadband NTL put a flyer through the door saying its available so i started at 600k knowing full well what i could do with it on 1mbit now have been since a few months after that launched

Kronas

Have you run out of full stops and capital letters in Yorkshire?

Get your act together man.

Ron:devsmoke: :devsmoke:

kronas
25-08-2003, 19:14
Originally posted by Rara Avis
Well, bully for you, but you were a newbie once upon a time, right?


yep i was thing is i had enough idle time to read about it

*thinks back to when he started using the net

id say the media played its part they mentioned how the net is a great resource of info etc so thats when i started to get interested and saw dial up and latched on to it

Originally posted by Rara Avis

Not everyone HAS someone in the house to help them. That's WHY they phone Help Desks!!


exactly people do need helpdesks and i have used then once or twice not recently but along time ago

Originally posted by Rara Avis

How many people know, ordinary people mind, the difference between 600k and 1mb? If they read about it, it's all jargon to them :shrug: Your household is very lucky.


its true people dont know thats why i think compaines should go out canvassing for new customers taking time to explain to them what the net is about and the possibilities instead of these silly BT adverts which are vague to the consumer

Originally posted by Rara Avis

The flyer through the door thing is only valid if you know what you're reading. As Ramrod pointed out,


indeed i understood and did further research on them then dial up connection using google but i got the basics from the flyer

Originally posted by Rara Avis

there's small print and sods out there who are more than capable of making a buck by playing on people's ignorance.
The ISP's are there to make money, not educate.


yes but its a business no one hardly reads the small print but i always do i knew when i signed up i was locked in to it for 12 months then can do what i want and was confident that things would go smoothly as they have done a couple of years on im still an NTL customer and a happy one at that

Originally posted by Rara Avis

There only reason they're making an issue of it now is because their services are under threat thanks to people not knowing how to handle their security.


yes and thats why i help my mates who are on BB i have already got one of them some excellent antivrius and firewall software and told him to update it when nessecary (though it is set to auto update) others dont care or mind so im not going to force them......
[/B][/QUOTE]

Originally posted by ronald146m
Kronas

Have you run out of full stops and capital letters in Yorkshire?

Get your act together man.

Ron:devsmoke: :devsmoke:

im lazy i dont use them :D

Rara Avis
25-08-2003, 19:21
Wow, kronas, You're the man!:devsmoke:
Just try not to end up on the end of a phone on a help desk. I hear from my mates, it's ****e, and god do they whinge *lol*

kronas
25-08-2003, 19:22
Originally posted by Rara Avis
Wow, kronas, You're the man!:devsmoke:
Just try not to end up on the end of a phone on a help desk. I hear from my mates, it's ****e, and god do they whinge *lol*

i dont know what im doing when i have got some qualifications but it WILL be IT related :)

idi banashapan
25-08-2003, 19:46
Originally posted by Rara Avis
What do you expect? Unlike driving a car, you don't have to be qualified or pass examinations to own, use a pc, or surf the net. The govt has pushed, and rightly so, the policy of trying to make everyone information/I.T literate and have access to the internet. If you have the cash, and it doesn't take a huge amount these days, you can get access to the net, but becoming I.T literate takes longer. Let me see, there is the ECDL, but for anyone that's done it and knows, even the advanced exam is cursory and is by no means enough. But it's a start.
Working on a help desk is just just that, a 'help' desk. In my last job, I was helping people off the street with basic I.T issues and this could mean anything from how to set up an email account to web design. Sometimes it was easy and at other times it required a hell of a lot of patience. Not everyone is aware that a simple reboot might solve the problem :shrug: To a novice, when the pc isn't responding, it's BROKEN and they need help.
It's a tough job, but if you can't hack it, excuse the expression *lol* get one that doesn't deal with any ordinary joes.
We were all them at one point :)

This is probably more aimed at the thread starter, sorry Bender DOH!

I completely agree. no offence taken btw. And you're right, the govt. is pushing, and well done to them for doing so, but it comes back to the 'leading a horse to water' thing!!!

I think a lot of the older generation feel that computers are too complicated to learn, when it really isn't true. I remember my mum calling me up about 2 years ago saying that when she tried to go on the internet, the computer started making strange noises, so she switched it off at the plug. She thought it was broken, but it was simply the dialup modem initiating its communication!!! She knows now and uses it fine.

Actually, whilst I think of it, I really can't say enough about the 'for dummies' series of books. They really are excellent for beginners. I remember reading one years and years ago for Windows 3.11 when I first started using computers. I learned a lot from it and would not hesitate to advise others to pick one up too.

Bug Infestation
25-08-2003, 19:49
Like you'd be any use to the ICT world

kronas
25-08-2003, 19:52
actually alot more of the older generation are getting in to using the internet we are talking about 40-50 year olds maybe older

Bug Infestation
25-08-2003, 19:58
I think you'll find a lot of 40-50 year olds know nothing about the internet

kronas
25-08-2003, 20:00
Originally posted by Bug Infestation
I think you'll find a lot of 40-50 year olds know nothing about the internet

well you made me look for it here it is

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1899354.stm

The number of people aged 55 and over using the internet in the UK has grown by nearly 90% from last year, according to a survey from net measurement firm NetValue

Maggy
25-08-2003, 20:03
Originally posted by Bug Infestation
I think you'll find a lot of 40-50 year olds know nothing about the internet

Oh thank you so much for that vote of confidence:mad:

Incog.Cocky little b*gg*rs.:mad:

Rara Avis
25-08-2003, 20:05
Originally posted by kronas
actually alot more of the older generation are getting in to using the internet we are talking about 40-50 year olds maybe older

Yup, that's the thing. Every public library should, at this point, be offering free internet access to everyone. The cyber world is opening up to all, not just the young. The significance of this, of course, is parity of access to information resources, which will one day be limited to electronic sources. Not all of them, but even, historical documents are being digitized. This will have it's downsides, in that works of art couldn't possibly be experienced how they were supposed to be in person, but most govt and local govt info is on the net, as are forms etc, and the ease at which one is able to access them is up to the indivdual, but also the ISPs. The govt is taking steps to change our information seeking behaviour, well that of those who are not already initiates but the mechanisms that we use for this, have to take part in this change more seriously. And not look to their wallets for constant reassurance for the future.
The future is now, it's NOT Orange ;) But it could be ISP related.
Look out! I feel a rant coming on. Bugger! Too late :p

Rara Avis
25-08-2003, 20:09
Originally posted by kronas
well you made me look for it here it is

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1899354.stm

The number of people aged 55 and over using the internet in the UK has grown by nearly 90% from last year, according to a survey from net measurement firm NetValue

While I disagree with the Bug person about 40-50 yr olds knowing nothing about the internet, just being able to use a pc and mouse, doesn't necessarily mean that they know much about it :shrug:
Lots of people can drive, knowing how the car works is different.
However, the question is WHAT do they need to know?
Bug person will need to explain exactly what it is this age group doesn't know?

kronas
25-08-2003, 20:12
Originally posted by Rara Avis
Yup, that's the thing. Every public library should, at this point, be offering free internet access to everyone.


indeed and make that broadband access yet they charge you to use it net acess that is

Originally posted by Rara Avis

The cyber world is opening up to all, not just the young.


i agree the link in my last post agrees with me too as long as you can learn some basic stuff you will prosper

Originally posted by Rara Avis

The significance of this, of course, is parity of access to information resources, which will one day be limited to electronic sources. Not all of them, but even, historical documents are being digitized. This will have it's downsides, in that works of art couldn't possibly be experienced how they were supposed to be in person


forms of art are available in digital form but nothing beats going to an art gallery and viewing it in person i dont think that should die out as such


Originally posted by Rara Avis

but most govt and local govt info is on the net, as are forms etc, and the ease at which one is able to access them is up to the indivdual, but also the ISPs. The govt is taking steps to change our information seeking behaviour, well that of those who are not already initiates but the mechanisms that we use for this, have to take part in this change more seriously. And not look to their wallets for constant reassurance for the future.


yep IT is the big thing and teaching the public is a key issue the goverment need to tackle and address

Bug Infestation
25-08-2003, 20:26
Originally posted by Incognitas
Oh thank you so much for that vote of confidence:mad:

Incog.Cocky little b*gg*rs.:mad:

Aren't you that teacher who goes mad at the smallest thing?
Wait, stupid question

The number of people aged 55 and over using the internet in the UK has grown by nearly 90% from last year, according to a survey from net measurement firm NetValue

Wow, just cos they use the internet, doesn't mean they knpw much about it.

Xaccers
25-08-2003, 20:34
I smell a troll....

Rara Avis
25-08-2003, 20:35
Originally posted by Bug Infestation
Aren't you that teacher who goes mad at the smallest thing?
Wait, stupid question

Are you one of her students by any chance? You sound bitter enough, no offence Incog.


Originally posted by Bug Infestation


Wow, just cos they use the internet, doesn't mean they knpw much about it.

I know, let me try again.
Just what is it that you think they need to know? and how should this be changed, for a little more of a constructive approach.

kronas
25-08-2003, 20:36
Originally posted by Xaccers
I smell a troll....

i smell it too

*knows when to stay away hmm shall i feed it for once :D

Rara Avis
25-08-2003, 20:40
It stinks. But hey, that's what verbal air freshner is for ;)

Bug Infestation
25-08-2003, 20:41
Originally posted by kronas
i smell it too

*knows when to stay away hmm shall i feed it for once :D

Originally said by Seymour
By all means, try

Bug Infestation
25-08-2003, 20:42
Originally posted by Rara Avis
Are you one of her students by any chance? You sound bitter enough, no offence Incog.

Just having a little fun

homealone
25-08-2003, 21:32
Originally posted by Bug Infestation
Just having a little fun

Not at Incog's expense you're not going to! Matey.:(

/me sits behind router & stares at birth certificate.:afire:

grum1978
25-08-2003, 21:36
:notopic: come on people lets try and keep this on topic please :)

albone
25-08-2003, 22:39
Yes I agree there are quite a few of us 40-50+ who know a lot about the operations of a computer! and if anyone has ever bought a 'lemon' and had to get into the workings of it they will, like me learn somewhat fast! But personally the people that sell you a computer, should at least point you in the right direction if not put the items on for you (as mine did at source) and yes I at one time came across the (it updates automatically) syndrom. No one explained to that poor person that it doesn't unless YOU tell it to! Then there is the person who believes they won't be affected as they don't use the net that often! until they get a bug and it all goes t*ts up! Not me I hassen to add.
:shrug:

Maggy
25-08-2003, 22:58
I happen from time to time to teach IT lessons to students.It amazes me how many don't know how to use the software let alone understand how the internet works.I quite often find myself ahead of them in ability and no,IT is not my subject.

That subject is ART and I agree with kronas(get off the floor kronas :) ) that art masterpieces are best appreciated in reality in situ either at a gallery or on someone's wall. However I like cyberart and sometimes some images are best on the monitor.

Incog.

Rara Avis
25-08-2003, 23:34
Originally posted by Incognitas

That subject is ART and I agree with kronas(get off the floor kronas :) ) that art masterpieces are best appreciated in reality in situ either at a gallery or on someone's wall. However I like cyberart and sometimes some images are best on the monitor.

Incog.

In total agreement, but then that's the medium that the artwork was meant to be viewed on, so it's almost a necessity.
Watching a cookery programme may show you how to create a culinary masterpiece but seeing the dish at the end isn't the same as being there and smelling the aroma and tasting it. A much more fulfilling experience.
Thanks to webcams, we'll be able to take tours around the Louvre but it will never replace actually going there and seeing the colours and textures in person.
As it stands, people still go on safari tours in Kenya even though the can see photos in books or watch wildlife docs on the t.v.
There was never any question in my mind that this type of 'information' seeking would be replaced.
The issue here is making sure that people can access it and safely, without helping to bring the WWW to it's knees.

homealone
26-08-2003, 00:25
Originally posted by Rara Avis
In total agreement, but then that's the medium that the artwork was meant to be viewed on, so it's almost a necessity.
Watching a cookery programme may show you how to create a culinary masterpiece but seeing the dish at the end isn't the same as being there and smelling the aroma and tasting it. A much more fulfilling experience.
Thanks to webcams, we'll be able to take tours around the Louvre but it will never replace actually going there and seeing the colours and textures in person.
As it stands, people still go on safari tours in Kenya even though the can see photos in books or watch wildlife docs on the t.v.
There was never any question in my mind that this type of 'information' seeking would be replaced.
The issue here is making sure that people can access it and safely, without helping to bring the WWW to it's knees.

some of the rarer documents benefit from "online only" - keeping the originals safe.

but also, I have lived in Kenya & I can tell you for that kind of experience, real is the only way to go - one morning we followed a family of cheetas, who were after a herd of Thomsons Gazelle - it included a Land Rover ankle deep in water at high speed - very evocative!

Art is difficult - many older works would benefit from archiving, but I do agree - they lose the impact of the original.

Gaz

kronas
26-08-2003, 03:50
Originally posted by Incognitas
I happen from time to time to teach IT lessons to students.It amazes me how many don't know how to use the software let alone understand how the internet works.I quite often find myself ahead of them in ability and no,IT is not my subject.


im guessing that would be a mix of newbies and unruly children......


Originally posted by Incognitas

That subject is ART and I agree with kronas(get off the floor kronas :) ) that art masterpieces are best appreciated in reality in situ either at a gallery or on someone's wall. However I like cyberart and sometimes some images are best on the monitor.

Incog.

sorry im just :shocked: we agreed on something but yes art is something you must experiance in physical form instead of virtual and thats coming from a person who uses computers most of the time yes a net head :D