View Full Version : scammed!!
jonnychico
02-12-2004, 16:26
I just received my ntl bill and within 5 days £846 had been racked up on a premium rate number. It seems that I have fallen victim to the latest dial up scam and I was totally unaware that I was dialling into a premium rate site(honestly!). NTL have been no help at all and although they admit that they are aware that this is a scam, they insist that I pay the bill as the protection on my pc musn't be good enough (I have a firewall, Norton, Adaware etc etc). I have no intention of paying the bill and the matter is in dispute - my argument is that the minute a dodgy looking payment goes through, I should be informed which is what would happen if a large payment went through on my credit card for example. Also, I refuse to hand my hard earned cash over to some scamming b*****d who is probably sat on a beach somewhere!! Has anyone else had a similar problem and is disputing their bill?
gary_580
02-12-2004, 16:32
your actually liable for any calls made from your installation. Thats the trouble with this type of scam, you have unknowingly made those calls.
If you use broadband to access the net my advice is to disconnect you
modem unless you really net to use it.
I must admit i thing telcos should be forced to set a limit to your call credit and then contact you if you go over it. This will probably come but its not a requirement today.
:welcome:
Unfortunately it states in your ntl contract that it is your responsbility to ensure that your pc doesn't dial premium rate numbers, and you will be liable for any changes.
you might want to check out http://www.icstis.org/ for information and help regarding premium diallers
threadbare
02-12-2004, 16:39
I just received my ntl bill and within 5 days £846 had been racked up on a premium rate number. It seems that I have fallen victim to the latest dial up scam and I was totally unaware that I was dialling into a premium rate site(honestly!). NTL have been no help at all and although they admit that they are aware that this is a scam, they insist that I pay the bill as the protection on my pc musn't be good enough (I have a firewall, Norton, Adaware etc etc). I have no intention of paying the bill and the matter is in dispute - my argument is that the minute a dodgy looking payment goes through, I should be informed which is what would happen if a large payment went through on my credit card for example. Also, I refuse to hand my hard earned cash over to some scamming b*****d who is probably sat on a beach somewhere!! Has anyone else had a similar problem and is disputing their bill?
ad-aware, firewall and av are not capable of dealing with this problem. It is, unfortunately, most likely a user error. When you see a mesasage come up on the screen which says do you want to install and run blah, blah, blah, unless you are familiar with the company involved you should say no. The connect to box that comes up is also a big give away, if you are on broadband, as the there is obviously no dial up connection.
spywareblaster would have helped but you should take this up with icstis.
ntl will have to pay the monies to this company scam or not, so its only fair you pay ntl.
no offence but I really don't so how anyone can fail to notice this stuff on their machines, but thousands don't so you are not alone.
disconnect the phoneline from your PC and it will never happen again.
welcome to the site btw
bob_builder
02-12-2004, 16:40
AFAIK, nobody has successfully got NTL or BT to waive the calls but people are starting to be able to claim their money back from the people who own the numbers as they were not made aware of the charge before it was made.
I just received my ntl bill and within 5 days £846 had been racked up on a premium rate number. It seems that I have fallen victim to the latest dial up scam and I was totally unaware that I was dialling into a premium rate site(honestly!). NTL have been no help at all and although they admit that they are aware that this is a scam, they insist that I pay the bill as the protection on my pc musn't be good enough (I have a firewall, Norton, Adaware etc etc). I have no intention of paying the bill and the matter is in dispute - my argument is that the minute a dodgy looking payment goes through, I should be informed which is what would happen if a large payment went through on my credit card for example. Also, I refuse to hand my hard earned cash over to some scamming b*****d who is probably sat on a beach somewhere!! Has anyone else had a similar problem and is disputing their bill?
If I were you I'd phone BT and get premium rate numbers barred from your phone asap.
If I were you I'd phone BT and get premium rate numbers barred from your phone asap.
Don't you mean phone ntl? :erm:
If I were you I'd phone BT and get premium rate numbers barred from your phone asap.
Why would he call BT if he is with NTL?
Why would he call BT if he is with NTL?
For a nice chat before phoning NTL?
<Snip>
Hi there, & :welcome: to the site.
I'm afraid you will be liable for those charges, not ntl.
I know it must be hard to swallow (esp so close to Xmas), but this is in no way ntl's fault & you should not withhold payment from them.
As hard it is may be to accept, someone on your PC caused the problem to occur & (quite probably unknowingly) downloaded the dialler onto your PC-that fact is irrefutable I'm afraid.
You are going to have to put it down to experience, pay ntl, & as was mentioned above-disconnect the phone line from the PC.
For a nice chat before phoning NTL?
:notopic: but......:LOL: @ Bifta! :p:
Now-back on topic you lot! :D
paulyoung666
02-12-2004, 16:49
it might be worth calling ntl and asking them if they are prepared to let you spread the cost of the bill , dont for 1 minute think it will go away because it wont , if you dont pay the bill you will get blacklisted and get dragged thru the courts , better to face it head on and see if you can come to some sort of arrangement with them ;)
Incidentally-what was the phone number that got dialled??
Raistlin
02-12-2004, 16:54
If you use broadband to access the net my advice is to disconnect you modem unless you really net to use it.
Just to clarify, that would be your dial-up modem, not the cable modem.
It's unlikely though that the OP will be on BB and still have IE set to dial-up (or even for IE to dial-up of its own accord) without him noticing.
Just to clarify, that would be your dial-up modem, not the cable modem.
It's unlikely though that the OP will be on BB and still have IE set to dial-up (or even for IE to dial-up of its own accord) without him noticing.
But the diallers change the dial up settings of I.E. :(
Raistlin
02-12-2004, 16:57
Just to add my two-pence worth to this as well.
I would say that the one thing that nobody else seems to have asked here is.....
Have you actually managed to remove the offending dialler from your pc now?
As for all of the security products that you say are installed on your machine, well - they're for nothing if the people using your machine are able to circumvent the (which in most cases they will be). As you have found out (unfortunately the hard way), it only takes a click in the wrong place, or one wrong download, and your machine is compromised - all of the top-notch security in the world cannot compensate for click-happy users.
Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's true.
Raistlin
02-12-2004, 17:00
But the diallers change the dial up settings of I.E. :(
Yes, they do.
At the moment I am on BB. When I connect to IE my CM lights start to flash even more than usual and the connection is almost instantaneous.
If IE had been changed to dial-up there would be a longer delay, the CM lights wouldn't flash, I would almost certainly get a "connecting" / "dialling" dialogue, and I would probably get a nasty screeching sound as well.
Add to that the fact the dial-up is painfully slow, and that to rack up the sort of costs the OP is talking about he must have been connected for quite some time, and you would think that somebody would have noticed.
ian@huth
02-12-2004, 17:17
Everyone has jumped to the conclusion that the charges have been incurred because a dialler has found its way onto the OPs computer. This may very well be the case but there are other possibilities.
My daughter recently tried to get NTL broadband, TV and telephone in Leicester and it was complete disaster. One of the problems was that when they first received a call on their phoneline it was answered by her and a couple of seconds later another person answered the call. It transpired that two houses were connected to the same phone number. Who would actually get billed for any calls made is doubtful as she immediately phoned NTL and made them aware of the problem. If this can happen once, it could have happened in this case and someone else could have called the 09 number.
Another possibility is that someone had connected to the OPs phoneline at the green box (or even at the box on the OPs property) and made the calls. It is not unknown for this to happen.
There are other possibilities that could have caused the calls to be charged to the OP.
As NTL have to pay the owner of the 09 number for the calls I would have thought that their system should be set up to ring alarm bells at NTL when such a large payment was required and check with the customer before making the payment. If they don't have a system to do this then they should introduce one post haste.
Raistlin
02-12-2004, 17:24
Everyone has jumped to the conclusion that the charges have been incurred because a dialler has found its way onto the OPs computer
Umm, no jumping happening here - only going on "information received"
It seems that I have fallen victim to the latest dial up scam and I was totally unaware that I was dialling into a premium rate site
ian@huth
02-12-2004, 17:43
Umm, no jumping happening here - only going on "information received"
As the OP has not stated thet he has found a dialler on his system he may just be presuming that he has one because NTL have assumed that he has. You can't imagine that NTL would say that the charges could have come about because someone has connected through a green box or in any other way. BT had quite a lot of customers in one area that received enormous bills for connection to 09 numbers and these were not diallers on the customers PCs.
I agree you should pay the bill, however I also think that the phone companies should put a limit on the amount a line can rack up in a set period. This could be agreed with the customer when the lines set up,perhaps £100 a month. That way the customer would know something is wrong when they get their account suspended.
In fact I'm off to ring BT and ask for them to do that, I'd hope I'd spot something funny but best to be on the safe side.
I agree you should pay the bill, however I also think that the phone companies should put a limit on the amount a line can rack up in a set period. This could be agreed with the customer when the lines set up,perhaps £100 a month. That way the customer would know something is wrong when they get their account suspended.
In fact I'm off to ring BT and ask for them to do that, I'd hope I'd spot something funny but best to be on the safe side.
That's good advice there. :tu:
Everyone has jumped to the conclusion that the charges have been incurred because a dialler has found its way onto the OPs computer. This may very well be the case but there are other possibilities.
My daughter recently tried to get NTL broadband, TV and telephone in Leicester and it was complete disaster. One of the problems was that when they first received a call on their phoneline it was answered by her and a couple of seconds later another person answered the call. It transpired that two houses were connected to the same phone number. Who would actually get billed for any calls made is doubtful as she immediately phoned NTL and made them aware of the problem. If this can happen once, it could have happened in this case and someone else could have called the 09 number.
Another possibility is that someone had connected to the OPs phoneline at the green box (or even at the box on the OPs property) and made the calls. It is not unknown for this to happen.
There are other possibilities that could have caused the calls to be charged to the OP.
As NTL have to pay the owner of the 09 number for the calls I would have thought that their system should be set up to ring alarm bells at NTL when such a large payment was required and check with the customer before making the payment. If they don't have a system to do this then they should introduce one post haste.
I'm with you ianathuth. The complacency of telecomms companies on this issue is extraordinary given the level of premium rate line abuse (800k PC users affected if The Guardian is to be believed: http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardian_jobs_and_money/story/0,,1360369,00.html ). The issue seems to be that telecomms companies settle premium rate providers bills before they bill their own customers. If it was the other way around it would be much easier to identify the rogues from the providers of genuine premium rate services and for consumers to dispute bills inflated by these scams.
http://www.ntlworld.com/help/security/dialers/index.php
Call Barring
When Call Barring is enabled, requests from rogue diallers to connect to the Internet using premium rate and international numbers can be blocked. You can activate Call Barring by dialling:
* 151 from your NTL phone at a cost of £1.75 per month
* 152 from your BT phone at a cost of £1.75 per month
http://www.home.ntl.com/page/userpolicy
15. Warning - Premium Rate Services
If you use the Internet via ntl or any other ISP you are at risk of becoming victim to what is commonly known as "Premium Dialler Fraud". Certain websites (eg adult sites) will require your dial-up network settings to be changed so that you connect to the Internet via a premium rate number. Some sites tell you your dialler settings will change and the charges. Others do not. The Internet also includes malicious code that will do this to your PC without notice.
Your dialler settings may be changed by you willingly accepting the download of the software to change your settings, or because you did not take adequate security measures to prevent download of software without your knowledge.
The result of your dialler settings changing is that you will be charged premium rates for Internet connection. Any such charges on your telephone bill, regardless of which ISP has been used for connection, are your responsibility and ntl will not refund these charges. This will apply to ntl telephone customers and ntl Internet customers using another telephone provider.
If you obtain Broadband services from us and you also have a conventional modem in your PC, we advise you to physically unplug your modem lead from the wall socket so as to prevent unwittingly being connected via third parties.
Also look here: http://www.icstis.org.uk/
HTH.
yer nice one
02-12-2004, 19:04
Hi there,
Just to clarify, Am I right in saying that if your on NTL's broadband platform, you are NOT affected by this ?
Im sorry if this has been asked before,
paulyoung666
02-12-2004, 19:05
Hi there,
Just to clarify, Am I right in saying that if your on NTL's broadband platform, you are <B>NOT</B> affected by this ?
Im sorry if this has been asked before,
if you are on bb then you are not affected by 'diallers' , unless you have a telephone modem connected to a phone line then potentially you are :erm: , hope this helps :)
Hi there,
Just to clarify, Am I right in saying that if your on NTL's broadband platform, you are NOT affected by this ?
Im sorry if this has been asked before,
Not necessarily-as you may still have a dial up modem in your PC that is still connected to a phone line.
paulyoung666
02-12-2004, 19:11
Not necessarily-as you may still have a dial up modem in your PC that is still connected to a phone line.
may i point out post #26 to the honourable gentleman :D :D :D :D :D
may i point out post #26 to the honourable gentleman :D :D :D :D :D
No. :Peace:
scrotnig
02-12-2004, 20:07
I would say to the original poster, DO call ntl and ask for time to pay this massive bill if it's a struggle.
Although neither ntl nor BT can waive these charges as they have to pay them themselves, both companies are sympathetic to the problems it causes and will do their best to help where they can, such as spreading the cost over a period of time.
Both companies will also give you as much assistance as they can in contacting ICSTIS and trying to get the money back from the company running the premium rate number. Although it's not all that common, many people HAVE had some or all of the money back as a result of ICSTIS rulings, so although it's a long shot, all hope is not yet lost.
Anybody know why telecoms companies have to pay the bills of those who have obtained money by deception? ICSTIS says 45,000 complaints in 'recent months' suggesting fraud on a massive scale.
Existing regulation and practice are allowing the scamsters to get away with it and like it or not this is an issue for ISPs. A clever ISP would change its payment terms, or licence premium rate providers (I think BT is going down this route) to earn big style brownie points with their customers and potential customers.
gary_580
02-12-2004, 22:55
however I also think that the phone companies should put a limit on the amount a line can rack up in a set period. This could be agreed with the customer when the lines set up,perhaps £100 a month. That way the customer would know something is wrong when they get their account suspended.
as suggested in post 2
;)
Anybody know why telecoms companies have to pay the bills of those who have obtained money by deception? ICSTIS says 45,000 complaints in 'recent months' suggesting fraud on a massive scale.
Existing regulation and practice are allowing the scamsters to get away with it and like it or not this is an issue for ISPs. A clever ISP would change its payment terms, or licence premium rate providers (I think BT is going down this route) to earn big style brownie points with their customers and potential customers.
Now that's what I was wondering?Frankly if it's proven to be a scam then I don't think anyone should be paying these cheating barstewards.As long as the telco's ignore this then it gives certain cheating folk a licence to print money.Surely it is time for it to become a crime to install such software by stealth or without permission with the option to steal.Why should the ordinary punter be liable for the underhanded all the time?
As long as the telcos keep paying, the scammers will keep going-do you really think the likes of ntl really care that their customers are running up (in this case) £800 odd bills? (I don't)
AFAIK, nobody has successfully got NTL or BT to waive the calls but people are starting to be able to claim their money back from the people who own the numbers as they were not made aware of the charge before it was made.
A man did the other week on our local BBC news, they hacked into him and cost nearly £250 in calls, NTL waived the cost.
A man did the other week on our local BBC news, they hacked into him and cost nearly £250 in calls, NTL waived the cost.
Do you have a link for that?
bob_builder
03-12-2004, 10:36
Anybody know why telecoms companies have to pay the bills of those who have obtained money by deception? ICSTIS says 45,000 complaints in 'recent months' suggesting fraud on a massive scale.
The problem is that there are genuine premium-rate dialers (where the user has actively chosen and agreed to be charged to dowload ringtones, etc.) as well as the scam ones. How is the telephone company supposed to know when the customer has been scammed and when not? It cannot rely on the customer saying so or else everybdoy would just ring up and say they were scammed even when they agreed to it. The genuine businesses would then be refused payment by the telcos. It is safer to make the telco pay up but make the scam companies repay the end-customers.
If you really never want to dial a premium rate number you can always get your telco to put a bar on them.
As long as the telcos keep paying, the scammers will keep going-do you really think the likes of ntl really care that their customers are running up (in this case) £800 odd bills? (I don't)
NTL, being one clown short of a circus, probably doesn't care that much but if other ISPs start acting on these frauds and provide protection guarantees they will soon attract custom from those that sit on their hands.
<snip>
If you really never want to dial a premium rate number you can always get your telco to put a bar on them.
I find £1.75 a month quite a hefty charge for call-barring (over 15% of line rental).
Also, I think that if someone's telephone habits suddenly change drastically (I don't think many residential customers clock up £800 in charges in 5 days), some alarm bells should ring with the provider. Banks/CC companies monitor accounts for unusual transactions. Why can't telco operators? Failing that, I quite like the suggestion of having a maximum spend per month.
bob_builder
03-12-2004, 11:05
I find £1.75 a month quite a hefty charge for call-barring (over 15% of line rental).
I thought that you only had to pay if you wanted the ability to bar specific numbers. BT certainly offer to bar all premium rate numbers for free.
Also, I think that if someone's telephone habits suddenly change drastically (I don't think many residential customers clock up £800 in charges in 5 days), some alarm bells should ring with the provider. Banks/CC companies monitor accounts for unusual transactions. Why can't telco operators? Failing that, I quite like the suggestion of having a maximum spend per month.
Again, BT definately offer a free service where you can set your quarterly maximum spend and if you go over that they alert you before you get the bill.
I would have thought NTL would offer these services too...
I thought that you only had to pay if you wanted the ability to bar specific numbers. BT certainly offer to bar all premium rate numbers for free.
<snip>
That's not the impression I got from post 24:
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/showpost.php?p=353047&postcount=24
(but you may be right)
orangebird
03-12-2004, 11:14
I find £1.75 a month quite a hefty charge for call-barring (over 15% of line rental).
Me too. But I suppose it's preferable to an £800 odd bill.... :shrug:
Also, I think that if someone's telephone habits suddenly change drastically (I don't think many residential customers clock up £800 in charges in 5 days), some alarm bells should ring with the provider. Banks/CC companies monitor accounts for unusual transactions. Why can't telco operators? Failing that, I quite like the suggestion of having a maximum spend per month.
ntl do do thid is some cases - a few months ago I made lots of international calls (to mobile numbers) which are damn expensive. ntl called me to verify that that I was aware that these calls were taking place and how large the phone bill was going to be. I'm not sure how they check these things? Maybe it's just random selection as to whose bill they spot check?
Me too. But I suppose it's preferable to an £800 odd bill.... :shrug:
This is true, but I still think that if the telephone now is a tool that can rack up an £800 quid bill in 5 days (just consider the period had been longer...) without the customer being aware, this can get people into serious financial difficulties. Call-barring therefore is not a luxury add-on, but might be considered an essential service, which should be free, or only cost a nominal fee.
ntl do do thid is some cases - a few months ago I made lots of international calls (to mobile numbers) which are damn expensive. ntl called me to verify that that I was aware that these calls were taking place and how large the phone bill was going to be. I'm not sure how they check these things? Maybe it's just random selection as to whose bill they spot check?
I don't know either, but it seems to me someone should have noticed in this instance.
Do you have a link for that?
Here is the link for the site but I can't seem to find the story.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/england/eastmidlandstoday/index.shtml
orangebird
03-12-2004, 11:55
<snip>
I don't know either, but it seems to me someone should have noticed in this instance.
Sure, but how? :shrug:
Sure, but how? :shrug:
Just keep a running count of the charges on an account, and compare this with the average charges over the last months (on a daily(?) basis). If it increases more than a set amount, send a message to someone's computer who then calls the customer I suppose :shrug:
BT are definately taking steps to combat this....
BT has blocked 1,000 numbers allegedly associated with rogue internet diallers in an effort to minimise the number of victims of the problem. The company announced positive action to tackle the dialler menace three months ago and has been taking action to block traffic to both UK and international numbers suspected of being used by a dialler since then.
http://www.btplc.com/News/Articles/Showarticle.cfm?ArticleID=d9679574-7869-4824-9965-76049a4c7233
[Edit]
If you wish to dispute a particular premium rate call charge, please contact BT on 150 or 0800 800 150, (a free call from BT fixed lines), where your call will be handled by our specialist team. In the event that we believe that the charge is a result of an errant dialler, we will still ask you to pay the BT bill in full, however, BT will allow some extra time for payment to be made. We recommend that you check the ICSTIS web site to see whether the Internet Dialler service is under investigation. Where no such investigation is underway, we recommend that you register your enquiry with ICSTIS using the online facility on www.icstis.org.uk. ICSTIS do operate a free helpline for customers who have complaints about the content and promotion of premium rate services. The freefone number for ICSTIS is 0800 500 212 and operates 09:00 to 16:00 Monday to Friday. This number gets very busy so using the online service is possibly the best option.
:tu: :tu:
orangebird
03-12-2004, 12:02
Just keep a running count of the charges on an account, and compare this with the average charges over the last months (on a daily(?) basis). If it increases more than a set amount, send a message to someone's computer who then calls the customer I suppose :shrug:
That's not possible with the amount of telco customers ntl has....
Anyone from ntl billing out there care to comment?
Sure, but how? :shrug:
I guess software must exist for identifying unusual transactions - the credit card industry's anti-fraud measures seem to work on this basis and I'm guessing that's why NTL contacted you in this instance (and applause for that). But fundamentally the networks should be more choosy about the premium rate service providers they choose as customers and amend their payment terms so that the bill paying public can challenge a bill with rogue calls before the telecoms company settles with the premium rate provider.
ian@huth
03-12-2004, 12:09
That's not possible with the amount of telco customers ntl has....
Anyone from ntl billing out there care to comment?
It would be a computer program that did the checking so number of customers should not be an issue.
That's not possible with the amount of telco customers ntl has....
Anyone from ntl billing out there care to comment?
Don't ntl already have a (kind of) similar credit limit type scheme in place for people with slightly ambiguous credit history, whereby they put a limit/cap ( :erm: ) on the charges that can be racked up?
ian@huth
03-12-2004, 12:12
NTL, being one clown short of a circus, probably doesn't care that much but if other ISPs start acting on these frauds and provide protection guarantees they will soon attract custom from those that sit on their hands.
It is the Telcos that are charging the customer, not the ISPs.
It is the Telcos that are charging the customer, not the ISPs.
Fair point. Slip of the brain. Although of course a lot of telcos are also ISPs. I get one bill, albeit separately itemised for phone, TV and t'internet so if the telco element fails to act they tarnish the whole brand.
ComReg (Ireland's main Telco) seem to have the taken some decent steps....
nder the measures, telecom operators were required to suspend direct dial access to a number of destinations in the South-Pacific region including Mauritania and French Polynesia. This guideline caused consternation among representatives of these companies. However ComReg did compile a list of legitimate phone numbers to the region that were not blocked once guidelines came into effect.
http://www.electricnews.net/frontpage/news-9568165.html
ComReg (Ireland's main Telco) seem to have the taken some decent steps....
http://www.electricnews.net/frontpage/news-9568165.html
Spot on. Of course there may be ructions if, say, the USA were to join Polynesia on a blacklist (as they no doubt should if the holiday prize telephone scam calls I receive are anything to go by). This looks the way forward to me though.
orangebird
03-12-2004, 12:49
Don't ntl already have a (kind of) similar credit limit type scheme in place for people with slightly ambiguous credit history, whereby they put a limit/cap ( :erm: ) on the charges that can be racked up?
Yes, they do - but it won't help if you don't have a bad credit history...
Yes, they do - but it won't help if you don't have a bad credit history...
Granted, but the basic principle is in place to prevent people spending more than 'X' amount of money in any one billing cycle, so surely ntl could look to extending it to all of their customers?
orangebird
03-12-2004, 13:14
Granted, but the basic principle is in place to prevent people spending more than 'X' amount of money in any one billing cycle, so surely ntl could look to extending it to all of their customers?
I understand the principle Neil....
The problem is though, putting a credit limit on accounts may offend some customers...
I think the best thing to do is automatically put a premium number bar on all phones lines (for free), and leave it to the customer to have it removed at request. This would also be a good opportunity to explain to the customer a little bit about diallers etc... :shrug:
I understand the principle Neil....
Sorry...:blush:
The problem is though, putting a credit limit on accounts may offend some customers...
True, but if communicated in the right way, people would understand 100% that it was solely for their benefit/protection.
I think the best thing to do is automatically put a premium number bar on all phones lines (for free), and leave it to the customer to have it removed at request. This would also be a good opportunity to explain to the customer a little bit about diallers etc... :shrug:
That's also a cool idea, but again-it would need to be proactively communicated to customers, & the reasoning behind it explained clearly-better that than a shedload of calls into the CSRs from customers asking why they can't vote on X Factor etc! :D
The key here is being proactive about this situation (rogue diallers are nothing new remember), & the right communications between ntl & it's customers.
*Refuses to make a comment about ntl being pro active & communication* :disturbd:
I understand the principle Neil....
The problem is though, putting a credit limit on accounts may offend some customers...
I think the best thing to do is automatically put a premium number bar on all phones lines (for free), and leave it to the customer to have it removed at request. This would also be a good opportunity to explain to the customer a little bit about diallers etc... :shrug:
Both are sound ideas in my book compared to the current situation of ignoring the issue and facing the wrath of victims. Premium rate barring should certainly not cost - I'm still smarting from NTL's monthly fees for voicemail etc scooting up from a quid to £1.75 which is an extraordinary large junp in percentage terms.
steven_azari
06-12-2004, 18:06
well I've had a broadband customer get charged for calls made from his pc - the guy still had his dial up modem still connected to the phone socket, so it was using that modem as a port to the numbers destination. I felt sorry for that customer. but when they was wondering why their download speed was 56kb and not 1.5mb.
That's not possible with the amount of telco customers ntl has....
Anyone from ntl billing out there care to comment?
BT manage it.
are you sure of that neil because i distinctly remember an interview with bt wherby the representative stated due to the high volume of customers they were unable to contact customers if charging followed a distinctly different pattern all of a sudden,i did once work in ntl collections and yes we did call customers who i think im correct here wracked up more than £30.00 in one day but to be honest we had more grief because we were required to take up front payments,didnt go down to well i can tell you!
Just keep a running count of the charges on an account, and compare this with the average charges over the last months (on a daily(?) basis). If it increases more than a set amount, send a message to someone's computer who then calls the customer I suppose :shrug:
That's not possible with the amount of telco customers ntl has....
Anyone from ntl billing out there care to comment?
NTL do that.
I had outgoing calls to mobiles & premium rate lines blocked because my phone bill had rocketed one month compared to my average.
1st I knew about it was when I tried to call my Mums and a mates mobile, got a "not avaiable" message every time. NTL didn't contact me to tell me, but it was all sorted once I rang them.
The charges were my fault (girls hey!) so NTL re-instated the outgoing calls and everything was fine!
This was about 3 years ago.
Edit:
Just read the whole thread and see NTL did something like that for yourself orangebird, so they obviously do check peoples accounts against their normal monthly spend, but it seems not all accounts...
dave_herts
06-12-2004, 20:42
I Think OFCOM should create a new code for Premium Rate Data Calls and force all these services onto the new code. NTL & BT could them automatically bar these on all their lines, and make consumers request them to be unbarred if this sort of service which the minority would want to use is required.
zoombini
07-12-2004, 08:41
BT have a maximum spend per month on thier systems.
I just arranged for installation today & I had £30 put as a maximum.
As a matter of interest can anyone tell me how much of that £846 goes into Ntls' pocket?
If (and i think it may be) its a sizeable amount perhaps *they* are reluctant to act as its not in their financial interest.
The whole premium rate number setup is a scam imho , always has been always will be.
Its time some action was taken.
M
*they* being all telecom companies....
bob_builder
07-12-2004, 09:41
As a matter of interest can anyone tell me how much of that £846 goes into Ntls' pocket?
If (and i think it may be) its a sizeable amount perhaps *they* are reluctant to act as its not in their financial interest.
I beleive all NTL get is the connect charge ~ 0.2p per minute and that is just to cover their costs.
ian@huth
07-12-2004, 10:37
I beleive all NTL get is the connect charge ~ 0.2p per minute and that is just to cover their costs.
I am not sure whether NTL offer Premium Rate Numbers themselves or whether other companies offer them and NTL only route the calls to them. There are numerous companies offering Premium Rate Numbers which you can find using Google one of which is http://www.telephone-central.co.uk/premium-rate-phone-numbers.htm
are you sure of that neil because i distinctly remember an interview with bt wherby the representative stated due to the high volume of customers they were unable to contact customers if charging followed a distinctly different pattern all of a sudden,i did once work in ntl collections and yes we did call customers who i think im correct here wracked up more than £30.00 in one day but to be honest we had more grief because we were required to take up front payments,didnt go down to well i can tell you!
Yes I'm sure. ;)
You just ring BT & arrange a monthly credit limit, they will then confirm that in writing-you can also set your Direct Debit to reflect that limit, so that you are never in debt. :tu:
Telecoms regulator Ofcom is to tighten controls on premium rate phone services to protect consumers and crack down on fraudulent activity.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4081091.stm
Sounds like a step in the right direction anyway. :tu:
[Edit]
To facilitate this, Ofcom is proposing that fees paid by telecom providers to network operators for connecting a premium rate call - which are then passed onto premium rate firms - should be frozen for at least 30 days.
This would give ICSTIS time to examine complaints and determine whether fraudulent activity has taken place.
It would also give the regulator access to funds to compensate customers.
quadplay
09-12-2004, 11:02
On a similar topic, ntl have now begun blocking all direct-dialled calls to Tuvalu (a small island republic in the Pacific - country code 688). This is because a lot of recent international-premium-rate dialler scam calls have been to Tuvalu, and the country does not normally get a lot of voice or data traffic.
Genuine voice calls can still be made to Tuvalu by calling the International Operator on 155. Calls in most Langley regions are made through the BT International Operator, and carry a £3.00 connection charge. Calls are then charged at up to £1.50 per minute. Calls from most Bromley regions, which are made through the Cable & Wireless International Exchange, may be subject to different charges.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBC
To facilitate this, Ofcom is proposing that fees paid by telecom providers to network operators for connecting a premium rate call - which are then passed onto premium rate firms - should be frozen for at least 30 days.
This would give ICSTIS time to examine complaints and determine whether fraudulent activity has taken place.
It would also give the regulator access to funds to compensate customers.
__________________
Didn't someone suggest something along these lines earlier in this thread ;) :) !
gooner4life
09-12-2004, 12:42
NTL do have a Telephone Fraud investigations department with a very clever bit of software that monitors the entire country every call made etc, they then pick up unusual calls/usage and barr or call the customer in question if they believe the company is going to be at a loss to get payment, we also have a high toll department who get no end of stick for placing a premium number barr on a customers line for unusually high usage and most people complain.
NTL do have a Telephone Fraud investigations department with a very clever bit of software that monitors the entire country every call made etc, they then pick up unusual calls/usage and barr or call the customer in question if they believe the company is going to be at a loss to get payment, we also have a high toll department who get no end of stick for placing a premium number barr on a customers line for unusually high usage and most people complain.
Why didn't this 'clever bit of software' pick up on the customer who started this thread then?
gooner4life
09-12-2004, 13:10
Why didn't this 'clever bit of software' pick up on the customer who started this thread then?
It would have but the Fraud Analysts obviously didnt deem it worthy of investigation.
It would have but the Fraud Analysts obviously didnt deem it worthy of investigation.
A bill of £846 comes in, & no one in ntl thinks that 'worthy of investigation'? :Yikes:
That just about sums it up for me.....:shrug:
[Edit]-What would they deem 'worthy of investigation' then? :confused:
gooner4life
09-12-2004, 13:23
A bill of £846 comes in, & no one in ntl thinks that 'worthy of investigation'? :Yikes:
That just about sums it up for me.....:shrug:
[Edit]-What would they deem 'worthy of investigation' then? :confused:
I went for an interview with them and this particular department dont have the customers needs in there job spec, they have the companys needs, so if they thought the customer would have just changed name or claimed to have moved etc and not paid they would have investigated.
edit **
What worries me is that High Toll didnt pick up on it.
In fact I'm off to ring BT and ask for them to do that, I'd hope I'd spot something funny but best to be on the safe side.
Well to update you all I spoke with BT, they put premium rate call baring on the line for free but wanted £1.75 for international premium numbers. I told them to keep it and just give me the free one, I also asked them to put a call limit on my account (as we don't use BT for calls) and they have done.
Saying that the mimimum they could set it to was £30, still too high as far as I'm concerned (would rather have had it set at £10), seeing as my call charges with them last month were <£5. Although I'd rather pay £30 than £800+ :shocked:
ad-aware, firewall and av are not capable of dealing with this problem.
You can configure the Kerio firewall to alert you if the dial-up number gets changed. Not strictly a firewall function per se, but it can be done.
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