MASSIVE Powercuts in the US

[danielf]

Apparently there's massive powercuts in several US cities. It's on BBC news

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1100431,00.html

edit: link added

[Mick]

It is abit worrying but the US Government has stressed this is not terrorist related. New York Police are saying all major operations are non-operational, i.e public transport, mobile phone services, thousands of people are walking the streets.

[homealone]

yes it's on BBC as well

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3152451.stm

- simultaneous again - it does sound worrying!?

<edit> sorry, it's a question, not a statement!

[danielf]

Originally posted by Dr. Plummer
It is abit worrying but the US Government has stressed this is not terrorist related. New York Police are saying all major operations are non-operational, i.e public transport, mobile phone services, thousands of people are walking the streets.

They just said that it would be possible for one plant to go down and having effects all over the country (and even in Canada) as is the case.

Edit: and there is no evidence of terrorism.

[homealone]

Originally posted by danielf
They just said that it would be possible for one plant to go down and having effects all over the country (and even in Canada) as is the case.

Edit: and there is no evidence of terrorism.

that's true. We shouldn't jump to conclusions - a solar flare can have the same effect. :shrug:

[Theodoric]

Originally posted by homealone
that's true. We shouldn't jump to conclusions - a solar flare can have the same effect. :shrug:
True. there was a case, IIRC, of a major disruption in, I think, Canada a number of years ago.

[homealone]

Originally posted by Theodoric
True. there was a case, IIRC, of a major disruption in, I think, Canada a number of years ago.

a similar event - now - would cause even more chaos - mobile phone networks would struggle to cope, as would GPS. They weren't around "then".

[Emperordalek]

I was joking when I said will the last one out please turn out the lights.................................

[Graham]

This actually happened at least once before, back in, IIRC, the 1970s.

A power plant had to shut down for some reason and this caused the load to be shunted onto other power lines. Unfortunately this exceeded their allowable load, causing them to shut down, shunting the power again and the problems cascaded over a large portion of the eastern seaboard of the USA.

I believe it was mentioned in James Burke's Connections book.

[Jerrek]

WOW.

About 4:30 pm EST today the power at my work went out. We thought it was just some random screwup, but when we saw the people accross the street came out we were thinking hmm... perhaps someone cut a big cable to our area.

I was in a conference call with people from three countries, CEOs and other executive officers, when the power went out. Our PBX was unfortunately not connected to the emergency power. We managed to shut down all the database servers gracefully, and after about 10 minutes I had to contact the people individually to tell them we're having problems with our power.

So I got my cellphone out, and they, in the Grand Cayman Islands, were like "yeah, we saw on CNN you have a blackout."

Apparently the Niagara-Mahawk grid went down. 21 power stations, 10 nuclear power stations, went down in 3 MINUTES at 4:10 to 4:13pm EST. This grid serves the ENTIRE Ontario, including Toronto, Detroit, New York STATE, Cleveland, Toledo, Albany, and other major cities. In fact, most of the north-eastern United States and Canada went down.

NO traffic lights, NO power to the subways of several cities, NO power for the cellular towers, NO power to emergency centers. (Except the emergency power generators of course.)

Going home was a bit chaotic. And I'm OUTSIDE of the major population centers. Can you imagine evacuating all the thousands of people that use subways? New York City, Toronto, etc.? And getting them OUT of the city HOME? More than a million people use the public transit everyday in Toronto.

Can you imagine the powers it caused with networks? Several MAJOR, MAJOR backbone connections come into New England. Just about all telecommunication lines with Europe. All down except those with emergency power generators.

Well, at about 6:00 CBC1, a radio station I was listening for news (I thought it was some terrorist attack, or something bad that happened... And I prayed.), stated that they are now signing off because they don't have any more power. The batteries are dead. 680 News went down, but came back later.

I went home, and then went to a friend that lived close by. Civilians were voluntarily directing traffic at intersections. I think the situation, here in Georgetown area, was handled very well.

Power came back at about 11pm in SOME parts. They are turning the grid back on itty bitty at a time so as not to overload it all at once. Most of the houses were without electricity while the street lights and traffic lights and emergency centers' power were turned back on, and one by one cities were turned back on all over northeastern United States.


*sigh* what a night.

Here are two links, which I can't visit at the moment because there are some network links down at the moment. Grrr.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3152451.stm

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/14/power.outage/index.html

I'd show more news, but google is down (grr), as well as foxnews and all other newspapers I read... grrr.

[Jerrek]

The states/provinces affected by the blackout:

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2003/08/1.gif

[zoombini]

Methinks when this is all over, there will be a slight reconfiguration of the power grid...

[zoombini]

And as a big advert now to terrorists, for what to hit next.
Will the US be sighting more air defence units near the power stations?

[Russ]

I just wish the internet wasn't so relient on America, that way they could get on with sorting out their little problems with electricity without it affecting the rest of us!!

And I prayed

:)

[kink]

Mmmmmm.... there have to be some conspiracy theories circulating about this event by now.... Anyone heard any as yet? :shrug:
If not.... give it a couple of days.....

[darkangel]

I've been told all nuclear power stations in the US are protected by a patriot missile battery
:eeek:

[kronas]

Originally posted by darkangel
I've been told all nuclear power stations in the US are protected by a patriot missile battery
:eeek:

surely thats going to cause catastrophic damage to the a'holes that perpetrated such an attack in the event of one happening :p

seriously though the US system is one of the worst designed it needs upgrades it has to quote a '3rd world power grid' the transmission lines which carry the eletricity around the area currently affected are not up to handling the heavy load currently placed on them as in the current IT driven climate electricity is in high demand with servers computers running all the time..............

[Dave Stones]

Originally posted by darkangel
I've been told all nuclear power stations in the US are protected by a patriot missile battery
:eeek:

get it right its the star wars laser system they use ;)

[darkangel]

Originally posted by Dave Stones
get it right its the star wars laser system they use ;) shhh

[homealone]

Originally posted by darkangel
I've been told all nuclear power stations in the US are protected by a patriot missile battery
:eek:

<sorry edited your eeek - it was doinmehedin>

not surprised - but I wouldn't want to have the job of discriminating targets in that environment?

[Dave Stones]

Originally posted by homealone
not surprised - but I wouldn't want to have the job of discriminating targets in that environment?

wouldn't it be ironic if they were protected by nukes... :erm:

[homealone]

Originally posted by morris
i would think nuclear power stations are a no fly zone, so if it was attacked it would most likely be from the ground.

I'm prepared to be corrected, but afaik patriot target aquisition includes ground launched threats?

[darkangel]

Originally posted by homealone
I'm prepared to be corrected, but afaik patriot target aquisition includes ground launched threats? yep it was originally design as an Sta system but it was later upgraded as an interceptor bad move as it wasn't all that good the first time around, like everything ratheon builds ****!

[homealone]

Originally posted by darkangel
yep it was originally design as an Sta system but it was later upgraded as an interceptor bad move as it wasn't all that good the first time around, like everything ratheon builds ****!

not consulting the grunts again? - and careful with that axe eugene?

[kronas]

Originally posted by kronas

seriously though the US system is one of the worst designed it needs upgrades it has to quote a '3rd world power grid' the transmission lines which carry the eletricity around the area currently affected are not up to handling the heavy load currently placed on them as in the current IT driven climate electricity is in high demand with servers computers running all the time..............

to bring it back on topic i forgot add in my opinion the system currently in place is bad it should be decentralized and not interconnected so any faliure in 1 system would mean a small area being affected example one plant serving new york and the surrounding small areas goes down the rest would stay in service untouched by it of course it means pumping serious money in to it but it needs modernising anyway

[Jerrek]

Originally posted by kronas
seriously though the US system is one of the worst designed Please elaborate.

[homealone]

Originally posted by Jerrek
Please elaborate.

you first:)

- I mean tell us how it affected you?

the co-incidence of the worm & the power cut - was it discussed?

- of course if you had no power...

[kronas]

Originally posted by Jerrek
Please elaborate.


look at it this way if it was not centralized (interconnected) it would not have happend you just dont do it that way common sense says that you localize the facillaties so if one goes down you dont bugger an entire side of the us/canada :shrug:

[Jerrek]

Originally posted by kronas
look at it this way if it was not centralized (interconnected) it would not have happend you just dont do it that way common sense says that you localize the facillaties so if one goes down you dont bugger an entire side of the us/canada :shrug: No. Please elaborate and provide details of how "the US system is one of the worst designed." Make comparisons to better systems and tell me exactly how it is that ours is one of the worst. I look forward to your arguments supporting your position.

[kronas]

Originally posted by Jerrek
No. Please elaborate and provide details of how "the US system is one of the worst designed." Make comparisons to better systems and tell me exactly how it is that ours is one of the worst. I look forward to your arguments supporting your position.

i have stated in the post you quoted why its is designed badly as for comparisons i can make in the uk we have local systems that go down but only affect certain areas i have had experiance of that and our lines are fine but we also need to look at our own systems and make sure it does not happen here

[zoombini]

We also have stations like Dnorweg (however its spelt) that can take up the extra load within seconds to prevent problems like this. Do the states have anything like that? (no idea)
Its a water powered station that uses water flow to provide instant power, pumping it back for reuse later at cheap rate.

However, I'd have thought that somewhere along the line there would have been some massive great big trips that can be tripped to prevent something like this, localising it.
Unless they were computer controlled by the same pc that got hit with the bug in the first place (he, he)...lol

[timewarrior2001]

Originally posted by Jerrek
No. Please elaborate and provide details of how "the US system is one of the worst designed." Make comparisons to better systems and tell me exactly how it is that ours is one of the worst. I look forward to your arguments supporting your position.

Due to recent events a weakness in the US power grid has shown up.
Due to differences in operation there are major steps taken within the UK to prevent such a crisis happening.

Therefor it is fair to conclude the US system currently operates on a flawed design.
:D

[homealone]

Originally posted by Jerrek
No. Please elaborate and provide details of how "the US system is one of the worst designed." Make comparisons to better systems and tell me exactly how it is that ours is one of the worst. I look forward to your arguments supporting your position.

Hi Jerrek

i don't think any one is doing any more than reacting to stories like this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3153237.stm

- a classic case of 20/20 hindsight in my opinion - so please don't be offended, as this kind of report has been all we have had to go on.:)

- I, for one, would be genuinely interested in your first hand experience, especially as this following story

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3155305.stm

puts a more human spin on the situation.:)

Gaz

[Jerrek]

i have stated in the post you quoted why its is designed badly
No you have not. You have called up one occurance and then jumped to the conclusion it is designed badly. An example is not sufficient. I'm asking for you to support your position with facts. Tell me WHAT it is that is that is so badly designed. And then I asked for examples of HOW it should be done.

as for comparisons i can make in the uk we have local systems that go down but only affect certain areas i have had experiance of that and our lines are fine but we also need to look at our own systems and make sure it does not happen here
That is not a good example. There are many times when the local system goes down and only affects that area. In fact, 99.9% of the time that is exactly what happens. So your point is moot.

In the meantime, I'm still waiting for arguments supporting your position on how "the US system is one of the worst designed." Not examples, but facts. You made a very blatant statement and I sure hope you can back it up with more than just one example.

Due to recent events a weakness in the US power grid has shown up.
Due to differences in operation there are major steps taken within the UK to prevent such a crisis happening.

Therefor it is fair to conclude the US system currently operates on a flawed design.
One example is NOT SUFFICIENT to make such a statement. You guys keep making statements but when I ask for proof and arguments you roll over and play dead. Please elaborate on these " differences in operation" and explain it in more detail.

i don't think any one is doing any more than reacting to stories like this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3153237.stm

- a classic case of 20/20 hindsight in my opinion - so please don't be offended, as this kind of report has been all we have had to go on.
Exactly. They read something in the newspaper and then assume they are an expert in that area. Yes, the guy did say "third-world energy grid." Do you know why? So that people will wake up and invest in utility companies. But stop for a minute and think about it... Is that really true?

I was born in a third world country, grew up in one, and I immigrated out of these. My family and I are refugees. And from first hand experience I *can* tell you it is *not* true. How many outages of this kind have you seen? How many outages in the first place? We've all had the occasional 5-minute blackout, but I just don't see how that can compare to third-world countries where you actually need surge protectors because the power is so damn unstable.

In 1996 I lived in Malaysia (no I was not born there, but I lived there--my parents traveled a lot and I've lived in a number of countries) and the entire *national* grid tripped for more than 12 hours. Did you hear about it on the news? Probably not. Is it a third world country? Yes. Was it an exception to the rule? Yes.

Accidents happen. There isn't too much you can do about it. Making a statement "the US system is one of the worst designed" without bringing arguments and facts to the table is just stupid and yes, I am annoyed by it. The vast majority of people have no idea what they are talking about, and my dad who is an electrical engineer does know what he is talking about and I can tell you one thing: There is a VAST difference between the grid in North America and the grid in some third-world country.

So unless you are going to bring facts and arguments to the table to support such a position, and this DOES require a bit of knowledge about the electical grid systems, SHUT UP. Reading one article in BBC does NOT make you an expert.



As for what I did... I went home at 4:30pm, then went to a friend's, and we played RISK at candle light. I went home again at 11pm and the lights came back on shortly after that. I went to bed and the next day I didn't have to work... I worked in the basement installing the ceiling and thats basically it. Nothing major. Internet was crappy until later that day.

[zoombini]

Calm down Jerrek... no-ones having a go at you.
Obviously the US system is going to be far superior to say one in India or Iraq etc

However it does appear to have a flaw that will undoubtably be fixed pdq.

I have no doubt that there are also flaws in the UK system, the French, German etc..

[Lord Nikon]

I think it would be difficult to protect ANY distributed power system from what happened in the US....


The station that caused it sent out an EM Spike on the power grid, this tripped out other systems on that part of the main power grid, and took down a part of the network, this caused a cascade failure in other key power stations, leaving other power stations trying to supply to a demand far exceeding their supply capability.


In the UK in a similar situation we would have problems too...

Incidentally, I took a tour of the Denbigh Hydro station a few years back... Nice setup, "Electric Mountain" as they call it.

[timewarrior2001]

Originally posted by Jerrek

One example is NOT SUFFICIENT to make such a statement. You guys keep making statements but when I ask for proof and arguments you roll over and play dead. Please elaborate on these " differences in operation" and explain it in more detail.




Ok well please dont think I am having a go as I am not. But it seems evident to me that the proof is in the pudding.
We can have major storms that will take out power to 1 maybe 2 villages (usually by bringing down overhead power lines), we have never had a crisis that has resulted in such a catastrophic loss of power. Except when there was the major strikes in the 70's i think.
The emergency backups within the UK national grid allow and compensate for powerstations, substation etc to go offline or explode or whatever and the result is usually a slight flicker in the lights in a house. There are backups to absorb major spikes that in efect should prevent a situation like the one in the US occuring.
Had a system such as this been in place in the US then the power cuts affecting the million and millions of people would not have happened.

Thats why the US system is flawed, it has failed and that in itself is the proof.

[Jerrek]

We can have major storms that will take out power to 1 maybe 2 villages (usually by bringing down overhead power lines)
Same here.

we have never had a crisis that has resulted in such a catastrophic loss of power. Except when there was the major strikes in the 70's i think.
Same here except for last week.

The emergency backups within the UK national grid allow and compensate for powerstations, substation etc to go offline or explode or whatever and the result is usually a slight flicker in the lights in a house.
Same thing here.

There are backups to absorb major spikes that in efect should prevent a situation like the one in the US occuring.
Same thing here.

Had a system such as this been in place in the US then the power cuts affecting the million and millions of people would not have happened.
Wrong. There is always a change that there will go something wrong with the backup systems. And that is what happened.

Thats why the US system is flawed, it has failed and that in itself is the proof.
Didn't you just say you had something in the 70s? Does that mean your system is flawed?


Come on, you need to do better than that. That isn't a way to support your position. You'll get laughed out of debate class.

[duncant403]

Originally posted by Jerrek
we have never had a crisis that has resulted in such a catastrophic loss of power. Except when there was the major strikes in the 70's i think.
Same here except for last week.

Thats why the US system is flawed, it has failed and that in itself is the proof.
Didn't you just say you had something in the 70s? Does that mean your system is flawed?


I believe the "strikes" being referred to during the 70s were industrial action, not lightning strikes. You can't describe a system as flawed if it fails due to the workers not working.

[timewarrior2001]

Originally posted by Jerrek
We can have major storms that will take out power to 1 maybe 2 villages (usually by bringing down overhead power lines)
Same here.

we have never had a crisis that has resulted in such a catastrophic loss of power. Except when there was the major strikes in the 70's i think.
Same here except for last week.

The emergency backups within the UK national grid allow and compensate for powerstations, substation etc to go offline or explode or whatever and the result is usually a slight flicker in the lights in a house.
Same thing here.

There are backups to absorb major spikes that in efect should prevent a situation like the one in the US occuring.
Same thing here.

Had a system such as this been in place in the US then the power cuts affecting the million and millions of people would not have happened.
Wrong. There is always a change that there will go something wrong with the backup systems. And that is what happened.

Thats why the US system is flawed, it has failed and that in itself is the proof.
Didn't you just say you had something in the 70s? Does that mean your system is flawed?


Come on, you need to do better than that. That isn't a way to support your position. You'll get laughed out of debate class.

Thats all fine and well, but the system failed, therefor it is flawed.
one of the guys running the national grid in the US said the system was somehting from the third world, what more proof do you need?
And to confirm the "strikes" wer eindeed industrial action, in what I think was called the summer of discontent.