Was it worth the risk?

[MovedGoalPosts]

Cycling home from from the pub this evening I see somebody sprawled in the road. Fine I stop to do the good samaritan thing as I am fairly well versed in first aid. The bloke is sort of in the recovery position, unconcious, breathing just, and I can see a nasty graze on his backside as if he had bit hit by a car. He cannot be roused. Someone else on scene calls an ambulance.

I monitor him in his uncounsious state. Suddelnly a female turns up all panic stricken who has to be pushed away as we dont know what has happenned yet she is trying to shake and move him (concern for spinal injury). However he does rouse suddenly and rolls on his back. That's great as breifly I can just get a moment of attention enough to decide that he may have feeling in his arms, but maybe not in his legs based on his inchoerent response. Then he lapses back into uinconciousness. Should I roll him back into the recovery position - no I suspect spinal injury. But that jepordises his ability to breath.

Although I try to maintain an airway he is struggling to breath. Eventually despite risking tilting his head to open the airway, his hasn't visibly or aidibly breathed for over 30 seconds. Far too long. I start mouth to mouth, (but have no barriers) which makes him gasp for breath. OK. He continues to struggle for breath until the ambulance arrives a few minutes later.

As the ambulance crew start to treat him he gradually starts to come round a bit. But he then starts to resist and thrashes around (not especially uncommon with someone who has had a few drinks and looses awareness. However despite a good hold on him he does bang his head on the raod hard enough to cause bleeding. I'm holding him and have no gloves, so my hands do get covered. Eventually he is got onto a spinal board and carted away.

Now I start thinking. What could I have caught? HIV, Hepitis? I know nothing of this idiot, the partner who turned up had a very Irish accent so they are probably travellers (knowing the general area).

It then transpires, speaking to the police that have now arrived that this idot tried to stop a cab, threatened a driver who tried to dirve off but the idot was holding on and got pulled over. The cab driver didnt stop, for fear of his safety (the threats had involved a broken bottle, now recovere from the scene), but went straight to his nearby office, to notify police. Apparently as this idot has arrived at hospital he is aware enough that he is now refusing any treatment, yet he was completely out of it at the scene when I found him. That's excessive drink for you.

So the real crux of this is, have I put myself at risk? Could I have caught anything from this worthless piece of low life? Was it worth it, and perhaps most importantly if something similar happened would I, or even you get stuck in to help?

[kronas]

sadly it is the way of the world, i certainly commend you for using your trained abilitys in first aid, even if you did not know this guy was a complete and utter ******.

it was your own instinct to help a person who was in need, i do believe people should help each other more in the world.

as to whether or not you should have helped him i would have said yes, if anyone is in that type of position then you have done the right thing, no one did know the real story (until later) but you did the honourable thing, even if it did turn out that the guy was an arse.....

[basa]

I also commend you for your actions. But I have to think it was perhaps a tad foolhardy. I don't think I would ever give mouth to mouth without using some sort of barrier (tube or something).

Also it could have been a con and got you mugged initially.

Sadly this is the way of the world these days.

You should rest assured that the diseases you mention are still quite rare and your chances of contracting anything a very low. :erm:

[dilli-theclaw]

So the real crux of this is, have I put myself at risk? Could I have caught anything from this worthless piece of low life? Was it worth it, and perhaps most importantly if something similar happened would I, or even you get stuck in to help?
You definately put yoursef at risk.

If it was worth it is your choice

I'd have done the same thing (but I have a face shield on my keyring) Also if I didn't 'get stuck in' in theory when the person found out I teach first aid they could sue me for not doing it if you see what I mean.... But I would anyway.

[MovedGoalPosts]

Yep if I'd had any barriers with me I'd have used them. Unfortunately I was just in trousers and T shirt. It's not something you expect, even if you've done the training. You know you should have barriers, there's none available. Somebody needs to act. What do you do :shrug:

Bottom line, the bloke is lying in the middle of the road, you've got an audience (it's amazing how many people come out of the woodwork in a street, that was empty a moment before), including the bloke's hysterical partner, there's a bit of pressure to get on with it.

However I will looks at some means of ensuring I have barriers on me for the future (car's OK I have a first aid kit in that): Dillingaf1701, is that a holder or something you bought from somewhere? I've seen large mouth /nose masks, available, but nothing smaller and more portable.

[Bifta]

Yep if I'd had any barriers with me I'd have used them. Unfortunately I was just in trousers and T shirt. It's not something you expect, even if you've done the training. You know you should have barriers, there's none available. Somebody needs to act. What do you do :shrug:

Bottom line, the bloke is lying in the middle of the road, you've got an audience (it's amazing how many people come out of the woodwork in a street, that was empty a moment before), including the bloke's hysterical partner, there's a bit of pressure to get on with it.

However I will looks at some means of ensuring I have barriers on me for the future (car's OK I have a first aid kit in that): Dillingaf1701, is that a holder or something you bought from somewhere? I've seen large mouth /nose masks, available, but nothing smaller and more portable.

What you did was pretty admirable, and as mentioned, a bit foolhardy, however, as also mentioned the chances of you contracting anything he might have had are unbelievably slim, but, if it bothers you, speak to your doctor.

[dilli-theclaw]

Dillingaf1701, is that a holder or something you bought from somewhere? I've seen large mouth /nose masks, available, but nothing smaller and more portable. It's a small pouch that goes on my keyring (I got it from the red cross) - it contains a small bit/sheet of plastic (with a one way valve in it) that you put over the casualty face to do cpr.

http://www.stjohnsupplies.co.uk/product.asp?productID=F79006&c1=PP&c2=MM&pg=PPMMXX

[Chris]

Your 'good Samaritan' reference sums up, hopefully, how I would react (basically the way you did). You can't stand around and make judgements about whether someone's life is worth saving while they're expiring before your eyes, so by default I'd say you should help, rather than ignore. If you ignored them, who's to say you're not letting a popular and admired community worker die? You just don't know until afterwards.

[paulyoung666]

i get in trouble off the wife for helping ppl out , now if i saw someone in trouble and didnt help them and they died i know i would feel awful about it , draw your own conclusions from that , as stated previously , you did the right thing , just a little on the foolhardy side :(

[Maggy]

I hope if ever I need help at the roadside that there is someone there like MovedGoalPosts to help me.

How awful if there wasn't.

Unless you have open wounds in your mouth and on your hands I very much doubt you are at any risk.However as others pointed out perhaps you should have a check up if you are truly concerned.

[bbwannabe]

is it not possible to breathe through the nose instead of the mouth?

[paulyoung666]

is it not possible to breathe through the nose instead of the mouth?


i believe it is :)

[Bex]

Unless you have open wounds in your mouth and on your hands I very much doubt you are at any risk.However as others pointed out perhaps you should have a check up if you are truly concerned.
i would say the same thing as coggy here, abrasions are the highest risk.. on you not the patient i mean

i always try to help people, i don't think that people help others enough, so i always try whereever i can. what you did was a very resepctable thing :)

[Graham]

ISTR there being a technique for "mouth to mouth" where the index and middle fingers are placed over the lips whilst the side of the hand is used to block the nostrils.

That way, unless you've got a cut on the palm side of your hand, your lips are only pressed against your fingers.

[MovedGoalPosts]

is it not possible to breathe through the nose instead of the mouth?

Yes this can be done, and is a technique commonly taught where you are trying to maintain rescue breaths whilst trying to swim or tow a person back to shore (you can't do full CPR whilst in the water, as theres nothing to resist the chest compressions, and you can't get the leverage to puch down anyway). The difficulty is getting a good seal over the mouth with the thumb and forefinger, but the theory is that what your head is alongside the person needing breaths the nose gives you somethign to latch on to as you blow. However it still doesn't protect you from the victim's nasties, as the nose is connected to the throat and thus mouth, and so you will still be at risk of whatever is present.

ISTR there being a technique for "mouth to mouth" where the index and middle fingers are placed over the lips whilst the side of the hand is used to block the nostrils.

That way, unless you've got a cut on the palm side of your hand, your lips are only pressed against your fingers. Again the difficulty is getting an effective seal, and also maintaining a clear airway on the victim.

It's a small pouch that goes on my keyring (I got it from the red cross) - it contains a small bit/sheet of plastic (with a one way valve in it) that you put over the casualty face to do cpr.

http://www.stjohnsupplies.co.uk/pro...c2=MM&pg=PPMMXX I have seen similar things, but never knew where to get hold of them. :tu:

I do find it odd that you can but first aid kits and yet they dont include that sort of basic device, when it's been common practice for years in first aid to teach the use of barriers. :confused:

Abroad, you are frequently required to have a first aid kit in your car (even if you don't know how to use it). Other motorists did stop (one had done so to call the ambulance). But did anyone have a first aid kit. Not likely :shrug: Maybe this should be compulsory, for the small cost involved :idea:

[greencreeper]

ABC always takes priority - preventing spinal injuries is all very well and good but a healthy spine is no good to a dead bloke :)

Nose - can also use the nose if there are facial injuries, such as a missing lower jaw for example (eeeek)

Risk from blood - like others have said, it's very small if you have no cuts or injuries yourself. You could get vaccinated for Hep A and B if you think you're likely to frequently encounter injured people :)

[zoombini]

Well done on what you did, most people just walk away & leave someone like that.

FYI you could also have used a hanky (you can get breath through a pile of 6 ) or your t-shirt etc.
I carry a resusiaid in my bike kit, they are easy to get & lightweight.

The keyring mask is available here (http://www.stjohnsupplies.co.uk/default.asp?c1=PP&c2=MM&pg=PPMMXX&offset=10). However, maybe a word at work, with whoever buys the first aid stuff might get you one or two, thats how I got all mine :D

[aliferste]

If you do not have the wee keyring thingus...if there is actual blood on someones face you can use a plastic bag with a small hole pinched in the middle. This allows air to get through but keeps a barrier of sorts up.

Risk of infection is low in the situation that you gave.
Why did you not stop everything when the ambulance got their?

[MovedGoalPosts]

If you do not have the wee keyring thingus...if there is actual blood on someones face you can use a plastic bag with a small hole pinched in the middle. This allows air to get through but keeps a barrier of sorts up. True if such a thing is available. Were talking middle of a street, shopss etc shut. Your on your own.

Risk of infection is low in the situation that you gave.
Why did you not stop everything when the ambulance got their?

The ambulance crew did take over, but as I was already very much hands on, I remained assisting whilst they did what they needed to, especially as at that stage I had my hands in such a position that I was maintaining the airway and supporting the head. Bear in mind that most ambulances often have the paramedic who does the hands on bit and a technician who will do most of the fetch and carry stuff - like get the neck brace, oxygen, spine board, trolley, et all. My continuing to assist, at that stage, since i was already exposed, will have made little if any difference to my risk.

Still, ordered a load of face masks and gloves from the St Johns site, as per the supplied links, :tu: for them, so if it ever happens again as these things seem to do (I've been first on scene at a fatal road accident before now - maybe I'm a jinx :shocked: ), I'll have the stuff with me.

[punky]

As far as i'm aware you can't catch HIV from saliva. It has to be direct blood-to-blood contact. I was told to catch HIV through saliva you'd have to drink so muh it would make you ill before you caught it, as it is so minute concentrations. However if there was blood in his mouth, and you swallowed some, You might catch it as his blood would probably become assimiliated into your blood stream.

http://www.thebody.com/sowadsky/answers/quest407.html

It's always a tough descision. It helped his partner was there as you could of asked her/him. The trouble is, if you did catch something, I don't think you'd get anything back in the way of compensation. Not even from life assurance as that generally exempts HIV/AIDS. Such a tough call. I think at the end of the day you have to make sure you are OK. While it's great that you saved his life, you wouldn't be doing anyone any favours if you inadvertantly manage to spread the disease. I asked my dad (ex-copper) and he said noone should ever take risks. Obviously if you have the mouth-guard kit that the emergency services have, then that is a different story.

[Maggy]

However if there was blood in his mouth, and you swallowed some, You might catch it as his blood would probably become assimiliated into your blood stream.


The way I've heard it HIV can't survive stomach acid so I believe the risk is extremely unlikely.

Incog.

[Damien]

HIV cannot catched unless you had open wounds on your hand or mouth even then its unlikely

Remember all this is only if he had HIV in the first place and that is also very unlikely

but if worried get checked out, if only to put your mind at rest

[greencreeper]

but if worried get checked out, if only to put your mind at rest


Not at your GP though - go to a sexual health (GUM) clinic. If you go to your GP it will appear on your medical records.

You cannot catch HIV from swallowing blood or any other body fluid. You can catch HIV from having body fluids in your mouth, but it's a very, very low risk. Cuts, sores, gum disease and recent dental work will increase the possibility of transmission - but it's still very low risk.

[edit] There can't be paid compensation for circumstances in which you put yourself at risk - volenti non fit injuria.

AFAIK, contracting HIV would not be exempt from life assurance. However, if you have HIV then the majority of life assurance providers would not provide you with cover. That's partly why I said go to a GUM for testing and not your GP.

Oh and HIV isn't the plague nor are suffers lepers - let's not get hysterical :)