View Full Version : Gay-only schools
http://www.raptureme.com/cgi-bin/rrnews_list.cgi?cmd=one&file=rrnews/N.20030728.204051._Gay__high_scho
What an absolutely absurd idea. Will there be weekly witch-hunts for 'closet hetrosexuals'? What about bisexuals? Would they be allowed???
If there was a hetro-only school, imagine the uproar.
duncant403
29-07-2003, 15:20
Presumably this "high school" will be taking pupils from age 13. What 13-year-old knows with any certainty what their sexual orientation is?
What if they decide after 1, 2, 3 years that they're not in fact homosexual after all? Will they have to transfer to another school (and be an ex-gay)?
TBH russ in the report it does mention the fact that its already been happening for a long time now and it is true to the fact that bullying can occur in schools when a pupil is found to have sexual feelings which are deemed by other pupils as 'abnormal' i have no problems with it even if there was a hetro only school it is a small school............
Originally posted by duncant403
Presumably this "high school" will be taking pupils from age 13. What 13-year-old knows with any certainty what their sexual orientation is?
What if they decide after 1, 2, 3 years that they're not in fact homosexual after all? Will they have to transfer to another school (and be an ex-gay)?
this is a typical assumption i for one i knew my sexual orientation at a very early age straight thankfully !! :D
but you must not underestimate what kids at an early age think granted not all kids are sensible
Originally posted by kronas
TBH russ in the report it does mention the fact that its already been happening for a long time now and it is true to the fact that bullying can occur in schools when a pupil is found to have sexual feelings which are deemed by other pupils as 'abnormal' i have no problems with it even if there was a hetro only school it is a small school............
Drink-driving has been happening for a long time too...
A kid I was in school with was picked on because he never topped 5 feet in height. Does that mean we should have 'short-people schools'?
A gay-only school, which by definition excludes on the basis of sexual orientation, stinks of hypocracy. What next, gay-only towns? Ever heard of apartheid?
When I was in school I was bullied for having a "squeaky" voice.
I wonder if there is a school set up for kids who have "squeaky" voices?
Originally posted by Russ D
Drink-driving has been happening for a long time too...
A kid I was in school with was picked on because he never topped 5 feet in height. Does that mean we should have 'short-people schools'?
A gay-only school, which by definition excludes on the basis of sexual orientation, stinks of hypocracy. What next, gay-only towns? Ever heard of apartheid?
russ what about those fat camps are we going to stop them the ones where pupils are helped with weight issues i for one think there is a line and this is within that line IMO
then again i believe in freedom to let others do as they want they shall face the consequences etc
so whats going to happen if a pupil is being picked on moved on to another school where it could get out that the person is sexually orientated diffarently ?
Originally posted by kronas
russ what about those fat camps are we going to stop them the ones where pupils are helped with weight issues i for one think there is a line and this is within that line IMO
then again i believe in freedom to let others do as they want they shall face the consequences etc
so whats going to happen if a pupil is being picked on moved on to another school where it could get out that the person is sexually orientated diffarently ?
A 'fat-camp' is for people to go and try to change the way they are. I'm not sure many gays would want to go to any school set up with the purpose of 'straightening' them.
Originally posted by Russ D
A 'fat-camp' is for people to go and try to change the way they are. I'm not sure many gays would want to go to any school set up with the purpose of 'straightening' them.
i know it was just an example of a school where people have something in common...........
as i said before i think its fine for the school to go ahead it provides a safe haven for people who are abused mentally by the taunts of there fellow pupils
duncant403
29-07-2003, 15:44
Originally posted by kronas
this is a typical assumption i for one i knew my sexual orientation at a very early age straight thankfully !! :D
but you must not underestimate what kids at an early age think granted not all kids are sensible
I'm not going to ask what your sexual orientation is - unless you want to share [edit]: reading you post again, it looks like you are sharing your sexuallity :).
I don't know whether at age 13 I would have been 100% certain. I certainly assumed myself to be hetreosexual at that age, and would have said I was had anybody asked. That assumption has turned out to be correct.
I did read somewhere that a group of scientists had determined that the average person doesn't determine their sexuality with absolute certainty until they are at least 21-years-old (!). How on earth you go about carrying out that sort of research, I don't know.
While I accept there are going to be some kids who may have a pretty good idea at a young age (and if that idea is their final determination, the perhaps they would argue that they knew for certain at that age), there are also going to be others who wouldn't be absolutely certain. This school is, some some respects, forcing children to make this decision - and make it publically.
Just to clarify - I didn't intend to start this thread to discuss people's sexual orientation, it's more about hypocracy and double standards..... :)
Originally posted by Russ D
Just to clarify - I didn't intend to start this thread to discuss people's sexual orientation, it's more about hypocracy and double standards..... :)
yes i understand russ its just some people have alterior motives after they have read something ( NOT YOU RUSS) :)
but i see no problem your welcome to change that view of mine :)
darkangel
29-07-2003, 16:00
Originally posted by Russ D
Just to clarify - I didn't intend to start this thread to discuss people's sexual orientation, it's more about hypocracy and double standards..... :) something most religious people know lots about Ross could u tell me if u have idealogical issues with this
TigaSefi
29-07-2003, 16:03
Ulterior and hypocrisy :)
Originally posted by TigaSefi
Ulterior and hypocrisy :)
how ?
as no one seems to have said so really
duncant403
29-07-2003, 16:08
Originally posted by Russ D
Just to clarify - I didn't intend to start this thread to discuss people's sexual orientation, it's more about hypocracy and double standards..... :)
I realise some of my posts have drifted that way. It isn't my intention to drag this thread in that direction.
I just can't see how a school with an entry requirment of being gay is going to work in practice. At least with a school for "fat people" it's absolutely obvious one someone is fat (unless you try to distinguish just being overweight rather than obese). How are they going to determine whether the applicant is gay? Will there be an entrance exam? (and now I'm being facetious)
To take the other side of the argument, no-one kicks up a fuss over schools take are just for boys/girls/Christians/Jews/Muslims/etc. Is the principle of this any different? Although that type is segregation doesn't tend to be implemented to reduce bullying.
This does seem to be very much a case of tackling the cause rather than the symptoms. Surely the better option would be to stamp out the bullying - through education of tolerance (not to be confused with promotion of homosexuality), and tolerance of all our differences - so that no child whether black/white/fat/skinny/gay/straight/whatever feels the need to go to a separate school.
duncant403
29-07-2003, 16:09
Originally posted by kronas
how ?
as no one seems to have said so really
I think he was pointing out spelling corrections (out should that be typing errors?)
Originally posted by duncant403
To take the other side of the argument, no-one kicks up a fuss over schools take are just for boys/girls/Christians/Jews/Muslims/etc. Is the principle of this any different? Although that type is segregation doesn't tend to be implemented to reduce bullying.
exactly why is that type of segregation allowed to happen and this cant/wont ?
duncant403
29-07-2003, 16:20
Originally posted by kronas
exactly why is that type of segregation allowed to happen and this cant/wont ?
Isn't the right for a religious segregated school set in law? Discrimination against religious groups seems to be treated much more seriously than discrimination against sexual groups. Although I believe you don't have to be Catholic to go to the Catholic school down the road from me - but I believe Catholic children get preference for the limited places.
I'm not saying I agree with religious segregated schools - but then I didn't go to one and I'm not religious (despite having a grandfather who was a CoE vicar and and uncle who's a baptist minister...) so what do I know :)
Originally posted by duncant403
Isn't the right for a religious segregated school set in law? Discrimination against religious groups seems to be treated much more seriously than discrimination against sexual groups. Although I believe you don't have to be Catholic to go to the Catholic school down the road from me - but I believe Catholic children get preference for the limited places.
i dont know if its law but it shows how real double standards are already festering in our lives and we let them happen but when its something which is rather more contraversial we have to shout about it
i see a bias somewhere.........
something most religious people know lots about Ross could u tell me if u have idealogical issues with this
This is nothing to do with my Christianity.
To take the other side of the argument, no-one kicks up a fuss over schools take are just for boys/girls/Christians/Jews/Muslims/etc. Is the principle of this any different? Although that type is segregation doesn't tend to be implemented to reduce bullying
A lot of Christian school accept non-christians these days.
My point was that for a section of society which does more than it's fair share of moaning about discrimination to go ahead and exclude people on the grounds of sexuality is double standards, pure and simple.
darkangel
29-07-2003, 16:44
Originally posted by Russ D
This is nothing to do with my Christianity.
really are u telling us u can suspend your christian beliefs when ever u want?
Originally posted by darkangel
really are u telling us u can suspend your christian beliefs when ever u want?
I've never said that. Read my postings again, I've said the reason for bringing this thread to people's attention is the double standards in it all. Nothing to do with my beliefs. I do have an opinion on homosexuality but it does not belong in this thread.
If you're trying to bait me on this (as some have tried to do in the past), let me assure you that you will fail.
darkangel
29-07-2003, 17:01
Originally posted by Russ D
I've never said that. Read my postings again, I've said the reason for bringing this thread to people's attention is the double standards in it all. Nothing to do with my beliefs. I do have an opinion on homosexuality but it does not belong in this thread.
If you're trying to bait me on this (as some have tried to do in the past), let me assure you that you will fail. I'm not trying to bait u i'm questioning the reason u made the post, your beliefs do cloud your judgment, can u say that think being gay is ok?
Originally posted by Russ D
My point was that for a section of society which does more than it's fair share of moaning about discrimination to go ahead and exclude people on the grounds of sexuality is double standards, pure and simple.
And you're totally ignoring the point about why the school is being set up in the first place Russ. They are setting up the school to deal with the problem of children being beaten up in main stream schools and therefore finding it very difficult to get an education.
As a new father it should concern you greatly that your own child may be excluded from education if she turns out to be different.
I'm not trying to bait u i'm questioning the reason u made the post, your beliefs do cloud your judgment, can u say that think being gay is ok?
The fact you are asking me that question indicates your intentions. If the school in question was for straight people ONLY then I'd say it was equally wrong.
And you're totally ignoring the point about why the school is being set up in the first place Russ. They are setting up the school to deal with the problem of children being beaten up in main stream schools and therefore finding it very difficult to get an education.
That is a job for the teachers and authorities to deal with. It is their responsibility to ensure children aren't picked on for whatever reason. Opening an exclusive school like this will only breed resentment.
As a new father it should concern you greatly that your own child may be excluded from education if she turns out to be different.
Thank you but I don't really need any advice on parenting right now.
darkangel
29-07-2003, 17:11
Originally posted by Russ D
The fact you are asking me that question indicates your intentions. your dodging the question, my point is u have a bias opinion thats why you have made the post
Originally posted by darkangel
your dodging the question
Yes I'm dodging it because
a) It has nothing to do with this thread
and
b) You are indeed trying to bait me in to saying something controversial. I've seen many people before you try it on and fail, I have no reason to assume it will be any different for you.
I think that it is probably a good idea (from an anti-bullying aspect). I'm just amazed that they got away with setting it up.
darkangel
29-07-2003, 17:16
Originally posted by Ramrod
I'm just amazed that they got away with setting it up. same here with the amount of neo Christan zealot in government in the US
Originally posted by Russ D
That is a job for the teachers and authorities to deal with. It is their responsibility to ensure children aren't picked on for whatever reason. Opening an exclusive school like this will only breed resentment.
And a job that is almost impossible to deal with without moving the victims to a school where they are less likely to be attacked.
It would be nice to say that everyone should get along with out causing agro, but that will never be the case in the real world.
As for breeding resentment, did you go to a state school or religous school, and if so did you feel resentment for having had preferential treatment?
And I'd also like to know where it says that people are excluded because they are hetrosexual?
Originally posted by darkangel
same here with the amount of neo Christan zealot in government in the US
Are you trying to be deliberately offensive to Christians?
If the people you speak of are indeed as bad as you make out, then they do not practise true Christianity.
But that's off-topic.
darkangel
29-07-2003, 17:17
Originally posted by Russ D
b) You are indeed trying to bait me in to saying something controversial. I've seen many people before you try it on and fail, I have no reason to assume it will be any different for you. i am trying to get u to state the reason that influenced u to make the post, imo u have worded the post to hide the real reason u have made the post, i belive we can leave it there.
Originally posted by darkangel
i am trying to get u to state the reason that influenced u to make the post, imo u have worded the post to hide the real reason u have made the post, i belive we can leave it there.
OK I'll come clean.
What influenced me to make the post?
The fact that what they are doing is discrimination, smacks of double standards and if it was the other way around, the pressure groups would be out in force.
And let me tell you that you have no idea what my view on gays is.
darkangel
29-07-2003, 17:26
Originally posted by Russ D
Are you trying to be deliberately offensive to Christians?
If the people you speak of are indeed as bad as you make out, then they do not practise true Christianity.
But that's off-topic. the problem is there is no true Christianity as the bible is a series of contradictions and third, fourth & six thousandth hand stories so nobody can honestly say what true Christianity is at no point have i said anything offensive, if somebody has an ideological issue with something they should state it, maybe i'm wrong but surely if u believe in the bible etc the must influence u in everything u do and say?
Originally posted by Russ D
OK I'll come clean.
What influenced me to make the post?
The fact that what they are doing is discrimination, smacks of double standards and if it was the other way around, the pressure groups would be out in force.
And let me tell you that you have no idea what my view on gays is. whats it your opinion on gays then, i personally have no real opinion on gays never really considered it.
why is it discrimination, my original post was meant to say that the irony may be that your post is double standards I'm i wrong if so i apologies
Originally posted by Russ D
And let me tell you that you have no idea what my view on gays is.
Still in the closet then? :rofl:
Originally posted by darkangel
the problem is there is no true Christianity as the bible is a series of contradictions and third, fourth & six thousandth hand stories so nobody can honestly say what true Christianity is at no point have i said anything offensive, if somebody has an ideological issue with something they should state it, maybe i'm, wrong but surely if u belive in the bible etc the must influence u in everythig u do and say?, don't want this to to turn into a personal argument i'll leave it now
There are some basics which are the same throughout the Bible no matter how it is viewed, for example the 10 commandments.
And no it does not influence everything I do or say - if I'm thirsty I don't consult the Bible to help me decide whether I want coke or Dr Pepper.
Now this thread has gone way off-topic. No more about Christianity please, if anyone wants to ask me about it can you please use PM.
my original post was meant to say that the irony may be that your post is double standards I'm i wrong if so i apologies
Apology accepted.
darkangel
29-07-2003, 17:39
my initial thought then i read this was that surely an inclusive education system is always better and that it would be better ro change the system to prevent bullying but bullying imo is a human failing and can't be totally eliminated maybe schools of this type could be used in particular cases?
Originally posted by darkangel
my initial thought then i read this was that surely an inclusive education system is always better and that it would be better ro change the system to prevent bullying but bullying imo is a human failing and can't be totally eliminated maybe schools of this type could be used in particular cases?
Good point, are they saying bullying won't take place in this school? Are short/tall/overweight/acne-ridden pupils gauranteed no taunts at all?
darkangel
29-07-2003, 17:57
just had another thought surely this school will identify pupils and make them more of a target?
ok, answer this question, what steps do the authorities take to stop the bullying if the kids are to remain in main stream schools?
Originally posted by cjll3
ok, answer this question, what steps do the authorities take to stop the bullying if the kids are to remain in main stream schools?
If they are doing nothing then this needs to be addressed. Opening a school like this does nothing for the problem other than move it along.
Originally posted by Russ D
If they are doing nothing then this needs to be addressed. Opening a school like this does nothing for the problem other than move it along.
But you still can't answer the question, what can an education authority do to the prevent bullying? Exclude the bullies from school? Give the children minders?
Originally posted by Russ D
http://www.raptureme.com/cgi-bin/rrnews_list.cgi?cmd=one&file=rrnews/N.20030728.204051._Gay__high_scho
What an absolutely absurd idea. Will there be weekly witch-hunts for 'closet hetrosexuals'? What about bisexuals? Would they be allowed???
If there was a hetro-only school, imagine the uproar.
All segregation such as this is bad. People should learn to get on with each other, and tolerate other people's differences.
Since i know nothing about the american experience i cannot really comment on how bullying works in that society, however it is evident in ours that whatever bullying cannot be perpertrated in schools is certainly carried out afterwards.... much of it is continued after hours once the victims have been established as such. I can't see a segregated school stopping the bullying as such, if anything as others here have already pointed out, it will simply create and highlight a further target for bigots.
Notwithstanding all the arguments about the age of knowing your own sexuality... i'm not totally against the idea of this type of school if it means that a child is able to have a hopefully untainted period of learning. In theory, this is heroic and something we all should aspire to.... but the practice is often a disappointment :(
Children at school come under criticism and bullying for their failing to meet our societal standards of what is considered acceptable regardless of their sexuality. Some are bullied because they appear effeminate or masculine, quietly spoken or sensitive.... they are accused of being gay or lesbian and bullied for their not being like the norm even if they are straight.
I like most people in this thread have no absolute answers.... only questions.
homealone
29-07-2003, 20:06
Originally posted by scastle
All segregation such as this is bad. People should learn to get on with each other, and tolerate other people's differences.
I agree with you on that scastle!:)
I went to boarding school (all boys) for 6 years, the first 3 years were terrible - I suffered a lot of bullying (physical & mental), because I am small & wear glasses.
Thing is, there wasn't an alternative (or I didn't feel there was) - my Dad was in the RAF & my folks were living abroad and the school culture was such that one never "sneaked" on anyone else so I had to deal with it.
I guess I was lucky in that I did learn to cope. After a while, small as I was (still am lol :) ) people learned that I would retaliate if picked on physically and they gave up on the taunts etc when I learned to not let it bother me. Some of the worst bullies became my best mates, in the end.
Looking back, I do think I learnt more by not being able to run away - and in a way, I see segregation as a kind of running away from the problem. Imo school should be the one place where everyone can be equal - there are plenty of opportunities to "specialise" outside!
Gaz
its not running away from the problem it solves it in theory by putting eveyone who is in the same position in one school in a calm enviroment fear free from adverse reactions from other pupils about there sexuality
homealone
29-07-2003, 20:41
Originally posted by kronas
its not running away from the problem it solves it in theory by putting eveyone who is in the same position in one school in a calm enviroment fear free from adverse reactions from other pupils about there sexuality
I think I have to disagree kronas, however I'm not saying there wouldn't be any benefit from the "safe" environment, just that it might not be the best way to learn to deal with the wider world?
- and I think it might turn out to be anything but "calm" :)
Originally posted by homealone
I think I have to disagree kronas, however I'm not saying there wouldn't be any benefit from the "safe" environment, just that it might not be the best way to learn to deal with the wider world?
- and I think it might turn out to be anything but "calm" :)
you dont have to agree im not saying they should go all through there school lives segregated it is about there HIGH school life i think when they old enough to handle the pressures they can go back to mainstream schooling/college
homealone
29-07-2003, 21:19
Originally posted by kronas
you dont have to agree im not saying they should go all through there school lives segregated it is about there HIGH school life i think when they old enough to handle the pressures they can go back to mainstream schooling/college
yeah that's a good point, like I said in my earlier post I felt like I didn't have an alternative, I can't say what I would have chosen if one had existed, though.
I've been trying to remember, bearing in mind I mentioned an all boys boarding school (50 blokes 11 - 18), but I don't recall anyone being gay. It was maybe more of a taboo back in 1964? - or maybe, that they would have been "teased about it a bit"?
I dunno, like kink said, more questions than answers.:shrug:
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