Confused of Bromley

[Theodoric]

From the Home Page of this forum.

"NTL have yet again shunned their Langley platform digital television customers, and will be offering an Open Golf 'red button interactive' service to Bromley CR3 platform customers only.
The fact that customers receive the same bills, yet one group receives a substandard service, appears to mean nothing to NTL who will be offering Bromley CR3 platform customers the chance to choose between five different video streams, offering different group options, highlights and other choices, as well as an interactive leaderboard and course guide between Thursday July the 17th and Sunday July the 20th."

How can I put this tactfully, without causing those still living in the Outer Darkness to grind their teeth in envy? I'm a Bromley ntl customer and I haven't the faintest idea what all this means! As I'm apparently being offered all these goodies, could anyone tell me exactly what it's all about and give me a link to where they are explained in more detail.

[matty4donna]

This site is basically having a bitching session about the fact that ntl's Langley part of the network cannot currently recieve the etv features that the Bromley part can. Even though they know full well that the two networks were built by different cable companies at different times and are actually different formats and the Langley network cannot currently cupport all the features that the Bromly part is offering!

Don't exactly know why they are saying it i think it just because its ntl: as usual and they have got nothing else to bitch about! If ntl: didn't offer any etv they would be bitching about that as well! :D

A company still in debt that has not long come out of bankruptcy WILL NOT have the money to spend on rebuilding the whole network in 5 minutes its totally unrealistic for the people who run this site to expect them to! :rolleyes:

[matty4donna]

I aint bitching about anything, it seems this site does not have any room for praise of ntl: and im hear to simply even the odds a bit as they are trying and they have improved massivly!

[matty4donna]

Yes of course you do, the post was not "ntl: have made a significant step forward towards their etv service rivalling Sky", no no it was "yet again ntl: are only offering customers on one half of the network etv services, whilst the other half suffers yet pays the same price" - that is just plain stupid as its technological barriers on one half of the network that prevents them from doing so, not that they just dont want to and that they are treating one half of the customers like S**t ;)

[Stuart]

Originally posted by Andre
When ntl do something constructive, we will post about it. ;)

Surely they already have?

What's best? NTL running a full e-TV service to the parts of the network that can handle it, or NTL running a cut down e-TV service to the whole network?


I personally would go for the former option..

Another thing Andre, what would happen if NTL had applied your reasoning to Broadband availability? No one would have broadband because parts of the country can't recieve it.

[matty4donna]

Originally posted by scastle
Surely they already have?

What's best? NTL running a full e-TV service to the parts of the network that can handle it, or NTL running a cut down e-TV service to the whole network?


I personally would go for the former option..

Another thing Andre, what would happen if NTL had applied your reasoning to Broadband availability? No one would have broadband because parts of the country can't recieve it. Exactly ;)

[KingPhoenix]

Why does everyone seem to "Gang Up" on Andre???

I actually agree with him, NTL have a network, that they cannot provide services to all people on, why arent those people compensated???

They pay the same bills, to recieve the same services, but dont actually get them...

I have had Sky now for 6 months, and have not had a single problem with it, admittedly my BT line, my ADSL and Sky works out quite a bit more expensive..... but i get SERVICE!!!! I wouldnt of minded keeping my services with NTL if i got treated like a customer, rather than a piece of junk mail...


NTL may have got the technology sorted out on one platform, but why charge the customers that cant use that service the same? theyre not recieving the same service are they???

I dont think NTL deserves praise at all.... they deserver a clap of hands for achieveing what should of been done years ago!




*runs away to put flame retardant suit on"

[matty4donna]

Sky don't have a network of cabling that covers 13,700km! So sky don't have to keep that upgraded, only the satellites that they RENT! Also ntl: have aquired an ex-cwc network that is more advanced then their original network.

You say it should have been done years ago yes? Well years ago CWC DID NOT KNOW that ntl: were going to offer them an extortionate price for their network so they were not going to convert their network to be more like ntl's! :rolleyes:

A network as big as ntl's requires thousands of engineers and millions of pounds worth of investment just to maintain, never mind the billions it would cost to upgrade it! You have to have a sense of money to realise that!

Yes it would be nice if both halfs of the network were identical, but they are not simple as, you can't change that, i can't change that and ntl: can't change it without money.

I think the fact that they are making progress towards thier etv services is the better thing! Last year we didnt have any etv really, broadband was at £50 for 1mb and we didnt have CR3. I think ntl: have made massive strides forward but this site only seems to highlight the bad parts of ntl: for some reason!

[Stuart]

Originally posted by Andre
What 'reasoning' of mine are you referring to?

My Apologies. Misread the article. Still doesn't explain why the site appears to prefer to concentrate on ****ging off NTL for not getting e-TV to the whole network, rather than saying "well done, you got e-TV on part of the network, now, how about the rest of it?".

[KingPhoenix]

OK.... you own a hosting company as do i.... lets put it into our own scenario,

I-Web Solutions has 7 Servers spread accross the world, we use our servers to make backups of each other, as well as hosting and gaming servers. If a software patch comes out, because i cant afford to pay one of my staff do i say that only 3 of those servers gets patched? or do i suffer and force a way to patch all 7?

I understand NTL's network is alot bigger, but why dedicate all of their resources to getting 1 half of the network going on etv, rather than spending those resources finding a way to get the entire network running at its fullest potential..... If customers didnt have those services, would it make a difference? if they didnt even know NTL were working on them? then that way they could of enabled etv on the system properly rather than a 'BODGE JOB' and having an entire network of happy customers! EVen if it came 6 - 12 months later......

NTL must have known about the C&W network as soon as they bought it, why didnt they start plans then to intergrate it into there own bromley platform? Oh yeah... cos they didnt give a **** then did they, and now they do and are f**ked because they didnt think about it earlier.

So all those customers paying the same money as someone on the Bromley platform... what do they get as compensation? Why shouldnt they? at the end of the day if they lived somewhere else paying the same money they would recieve the etv service wouldnt they?

Its like caller display isnt available in all areas, if it was included as standard on all telephone packages i bet NTL would have customers going mad because its a service they cant get in there area, yet someone else paying the same price can!!!!

Jeeeeeeeeez some people :rolleyes:

[SMHarman]

Originally posted by KingPhoenix
OK.... you own a hosting company as do i.... lets put it into our own scenario,

I-Web Solutions has 7 Servers spread accross the world, we use our servers to make backups of each other, as well as hosting and gaming servers. If a software patch comes out, because i cant afford to pay one of my staff do i say that only 3 of those servers gets patched? or do i suffer and force a way to patch all 7?



Yes but your starting from the point of having 7 servers on the same software, configuration and network protocols.

Now if 3 were still IBM Token Ring network and the other 4 were IP and you could not afford to replace the first 3 yet they satisfied a large proportion of your customer base what would you do?

[KingPhoenix]

Originally posted by SMHarman
Yes but your starting from the point of having 7 servers on the same software, configuration and network protocols.

Now if 3 were still IBM Token Ring network and the other 4 were IP and you could not afford to replace the first 3 yet they satisfied a large proportion of your customer base what would you do?

When i got the 7 servers they were running various o/s and i saw it as a priority to better my own network to ensure they were all on the same wavelength, therefore making it easier for my techs to work with.

On the network issue, which machines did i have first? the 3 token ring then added the 4 IP??? if so then the 4 IP would of been converted to token ring as they were purchased.... this is hyperthetically obviously as it is all IP based,

So any machine gets added into my network as it is purchased.... i purchase 1 machine at a time, and integrate it into my network, with its IP its OS etc.......

At the end of the day, i can understand NTL have done a good thing getting this far, but why should they be congratulated for doing a half job????

When your changing the brakes on your car, you know there worn out, because you cant afford 2 pairs of pads (left and right sets) do you just replace the pads on the right hand side and think its a job well done?

[Seb]

You know what if NTL: stopped worrying about this website's format and textual content then maybe they would save money and possibly have an extra 5 minutes to try and over come the 'technical barriers'!! The time, which we all know is a cost, of them emailing Andre could have surely been made improving their customer service. [Apologies if this has gone slightly off topic mods]

Edit: I'm an orig-ntl customers, so therefrore i MUST have a biased opinion!!

[Stuart]

Originally posted by KingPhoenix

I understand NTL's network is alot bigger, but why dedicate all of their resources to getting 1 half of the network going on etv, rather than spending those resources finding a way to get the entire network running at its fullest potential..... If customers didnt have those services, would it make a difference? if they didnt even know NTL were working on them? then that way they could of enabled etv on the system properly rather than a 'BODGE JOB' and having an entire network of happy customers! EVen if it came 6 - 12 months later......

NTL are developing CR3 (or equivalent) for the Langley platform. They say it should be available late in the year (Q3). I thought they were currently testing it (have been for a while now).


NTL must have known about the C&W network as soon as they bought it, why didnt they start plans then to intergrate it into there own bromley platform? Oh yeah... cos they didnt give a **** then did they, and now they do and are f**ked because they didnt think about it earlier.

The Bromley platform IS the C&W network. I live in Bromley (about 2-3 miles from the Head End), and the network was built by Nynex, then bought by C&W, then NTL.

NTL are upgrading the original areas to the same spec as the Bromley network as the Bromley network is more advanced.

It's actually a very expensive operation to do this. Not only do they need to upgrade the equipment at the head ends (& there are quite a few), but they need to stockpile 100's of STBs as a certain percentage will fail in the upgrade (I think somebody on .com said 10-15% of boxes fail during software upgrades). NTL have hundreds of thousands of boxes installed in orig. NTL areas, so a 10% failure rate means a lot of boxes..


So all those customers paying the same money as someone on the Bromley platform... what do they get as compensation? Why shouldnt they? at the end of the day if they lived somewhere else paying the same money they would recieve the etv service wouldnt they?

That actually is a fair comment, although I am sure that NTL would argue that you don't pay for e-TV directly.

[Seb]

Originally posted by Andre
Hallelulah!! :D

That is exactly the point I have been trying to make :cry:

Well i have been on your side ever since i saw that thread this mornin about the letter from NTL's very own AG! However i didnt really want to post this mornin, but i jus had too now. Its built up insideme for most of the day, and some previous posts jus pushed me over the edge :afire: Well i'm glad i have let off a bit of steam there. :D

[matty4donna]

Originally posted by KingPhoenix
I understand NTL's network is alot bigger, but why dedicate all of their resources to getting 1 half of the network going on etv, rather than spending those resources finding a way to get the entire network running at its fullest potential.....

Errr possibly because they have the network running at its fullest potential ?????


If customers didnt have those services, would it make a difference? if they didnt even know NTL were working on them? then that way they could of enabled etv on the system properly rather than a 'BODGE JOB' and having an entire network of happy customers! EVen if it came 6 - 12 months later......

Erm if you ever took part in the nthw.com forums or had any interest in ntl: before you would know that they have been getting ****ged off for not having etv features for years. And its not a simple case of they can't, THEY HAVE LITTLE MONEY, they have only recently emerged from bankruptcy :rolleyes:

NTL must have known about the C&W network as soon as they bought it, why didnt they start plans then to intergrate it into there own bromley platform?

Because after they purchesed CWC the telecommunications market hit a total downfall in which they lost loads of money and did not have the money to intergrate it. Yes they had plans, but no they could not fund it. And unlike BT, they have recieved no help from the goverment towards future services.

Oh yeah... cos they didnt give a **** then did they, and now they do and are f**ked because they didnt think about it earlier.

We all already no that the management of ntl over the years has been pretty crap, hence why they went bankrupt. But now they seem to have got in the right people to manage the company and are re-building.

So all those customers paying the same money as someone on the Bromley platform... what do they get as compensation?

Ok so this rule applies to everything then! Next you will be complaining that people is certain area's of the country should be compensated by the goverment for not having the choice of ntl: or BT for their internet services, because ntl: are not in the area.

Why shouldnt they? at the end of the day if they lived somewhere else paying the same money they would recieve the etv service wouldnt they?

Awwwww I live in Wirral and i can't get hydro broadband, so where do we draw the limit? :rolleyes:

Its like caller display isnt available in all areas, if it was included as standard on all telephone packages i bet NTL would have customers going mad because its a service they cant get in there area, yet someone else paying the same price can!!!!

Thats a pretty dumb thing to say, because it is NOT a standard feature as you have said and therefore has no relevance or truth!

And being the owner of a web hosting company CANNOT compare to running an international company with millions of customers to satisfy and bigger competitors then yourself to undercut. If your web hosting company was to go bankrupt you probably would not even survive, never mind go on to launch new services. I don't mean it will obviously but you are comparing (admittidly you did state its not as big) a small e-business with floated international company ;)

[Theodoric]

Oh dear! I wasn't trying to start a flame war. I simply wanted some info on what is so special about this offering and how to use it.

To be honest, I normally just stick to the terrestrial channels and occasionally watch Discovery or the History channel; it's the rest of the family that watch everything from QVC (is it possible to sink lower and still remain on this planet?) and the film channels etc.

[matty4donna]

well id leave the hosting company - there are millions. You can't expect a network as big as ntl's to be without its flaws. For me as a web host it is easy to maintain the small network that i run lol. For ntl with a network that covers the majority of the UK, its a damn site different. And there are not exactly 50,000 more competitors that you could go to for your internet and digital tv services. ;)

[KingPhoenix]

Originally posted by matty4donna
Errr possibly because they have the network running at its fullest potential ?????
How can it be when so many problems arise with picture and sound quality?? let alone features that were promised, but cant be delivered, so they decided to make 1 set happy and will........................ ermmmmmm....... well coming soon message to the rest!




Erm if you ever took part in the nthw.com forums or had any interest in ntl: before you would know that they have been getting ****ged off for not having etv features for years. And its not a simple case of they can't, THEY HAVE LITTLE MONEY, they have only recently emerged from bankruptcy :rolleyes:
I was on NTHW.com and still am :rolleyes:

so theyve got little money................ Whos fault is that? was it the customers fault that NTL thought it would be better to spend there money on monpolising the cable tv industry? rather than looking after the people that actually kept them afloat?



Because after they purchesed CWC the telecommunications market hit a total downfall in which they lost loads of money and did not have the money to intergrate it. Yes they had plans, but no they could not fund it. And unlike BT, they have recieved no help from the goverment towards future services.

Ok... so when they purchase CWC.... there was a downfall... was this because they couldnt cope and people started walking at the first sign of trouble? or a general downfall....... i dont know so this is an actual question...... but i guess i know what your answer is going to be....



We all already no that the management of ntl over the years has been pretty crap, hence why they went bankrupt. But now they seem to have got in the right people to manage the company and are re-building.
Yeah like i said, i dont disagree, i said theyve done a good thing, but why should they be given praise for doing a half job? Would you give someone praise for half washing your car? Or would you give someone praise for half cooking your food???



Ok so this rule applies to everything then! Next you will be complaining that people is certain area's of the country should be compensated by the goverment for not having the choice of ntl: or BT for their internet services, because ntl: are not in the area.

Those that dont have NTL in there area are actually very lucky right now...... that they dont have the choice to experience this crap!



Awwwww I live in Wirral and i can't get hydro broadband, so where do we draw the limit? :rolleyes:
Arent they supplied by 2 different companies???? duh?



Thats a pretty dumb thing to say, because it is NOT a standard feature as you have said and therefore has no relevance or truth!
FFS!!! Your really an irritating idiot..... read that statement again!!! look for the word IF, it implies a hyperthetical situation... or can you not comprend that?

And being the owner of a web hosting company CANNOT compare to running an international company with millions of customers to satisfy and bigger competitors then yourself to undercut. If your web hosting company was to go bankrupt you probably would not even survive, never mind go on to launch new services. I don't mean it will obviously but you are comparing (admittidly you did state its not as big) a small e-business with floated international company ;)

That comparison was only on the basis of hardware management..... sheesh!

Like ive said... yes theyve done a good thing, but why do they deserve praise for half doing a job...

Anyway i keep repeating myself, so i will leave it at that, if you want to continue this discussion, PM me.......

[KingPhoenix]

Originally posted by matty4donna
well id leave the hosting company - there are millions. You can't expect a network as big as ntl's to be without its flaws. For me as a web host it is easy to maintain the small network that i run lol. For ntl with a network that covers the majority of the UK, its a damn site different. And there are not exactly 50,000 more competitors that you could go to for your internet and digital tv services. ;)

Sorry i couldnt resist this post....

So your saying all of those that cant get e-tv should leave NTL ?????


:rolleyes: Thats solve the problem i suppose.... i think you should go work for NTL!!!! ;)

[Proppinupthebar]

Originally posted by scastle



NTL are upgrading the original areas to the same spec as the Bromley network as the Bromley network is more advanced.



Theres nothing more advanced about the exCWC network.
The software on the Langley STB's needs the work, we were originally developing a different Interactive platform to Liberate, which was abandoned after the CWC cable side was purchased.

[matty4donna]

OK OK OK Son SKy and BT are PERFECT! Lets all jump on the "ntl are effing crap" bandwagon! If they are so bad why the hell are you with them? I mean PERFECT Sky and BT are available to evryone right? Come on, ntl: cannot do right for doing wrong, it is rediculous!

I am not a fan of ntl: and i myself have encountered massive problems with them in the past not least with them billing the cost of 3 months in 1 month by mistake and then them taking another month to get the money back into my account but they are trying and instead of this site pointing that out, they are simply making out that they dont give a s**t about their customers. Well if thats what you think, why are with them? Stop being so bloody stubborn and awkward and just move to PERFECT Sky and BT.

And as for them losing money a few years ago, yes the WHOLE telecommunications market lost masses of money and does not help that ntl: are floated on the US Stock Exchange, which has been in a depression for the last few years (common knowledge). AOL Time Warner recently recorded losses of $99billion so it cant be just down to ntl:, its the market conditions as well.

[matty4donna]

Originally posted by Andre
You took the words right out of my mouth. ;)

Is that how you treat your customers Matty-"if you don't like it-leave" ? :dozey:

Are you Barclay Knapp in disguise? :D No because at the end of the day me and my small support and technical teams can work individually with customers. With ntl: it is different, you cant expect them to have as good customer relations! For crying out loud (hehehe another meatloaf number :D) they have 5.937million customers, not a few hundred. ;)

[matty4donna]

Well King Phoenix rekons he has no problems with Sky and BT and if ntl: (im assuming he does not have it now although he used to have it) had provided as good service he would still be with them.

Well if he is no longer with them (i obviously dont know im just speculating from what he has stated) how can he comment on their current service levels?

[KingPhoenix]

Originally posted by matty4donna
OK OK OK Son SKy and BT are PERFECT! Lets all jump on the "ntl are effing crap" bandwagon! If they are so bad why the hell are you with them? I mean PERFECT Sky and BT are available to evryone right? Come on, ntl: cannot do right for doing wrong, it is rediculous!
If your reffering to me.... check my first post in this thread!!!!! IM ALREADY WITH BT AND SKY!!!!!

I am not a fan of ntl: and i myself have encountered massive problems with them in the past not least with them billing the cost of 3 months in 1 month by mistake and then them taking another month to get the money back into my account but they are trying and instead of this site pointing that out, they are simply making out that they dont give a s**t about their customers.
Not a fan of NTL???? you certainly seem like you are, or your just here to damage what this site has going.... and as you have said (so honestly aswell) that you not a fan of NTL that only leaves 1 option

Well if thats what you think, why are with them? Stop being so bloody stubborn and awkward and just move to PERFECT Sky and BT.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

And as for them losing money a few years ago, yes the WHOLE telecommunications market lost masses of money and does not help that ntl: are floated on the US Stock Exchange,
Of course..... customers fault again.... so there punished.... gotya

which has been in a depression for the last few years (common knowledge). AOL Time Warner recently recorded losses of $99billion so it cant be just down to ntl:, its the market conditions as well.

Ok.... point taken.....

Bit i dont get is why your so damn pedantic that this site does NTL no good.....

From what im aware, this site is called nthellworld

where people come to discuss there anguish, not there well done ntl comments..... But i understand either are acceptable here...

Why dont you go back to where you got brainwashed... when ntl bought TOS ..... ya know??? LMAO!!!!!!!!

Also why are you payin the NTL bill??? your 17 :confused: ????

[KingPhoenix]

Originally posted by matty4donna
Well King Phoenix rekons he has no problems with Sky and BT and if ntl: (im assuming he does not have it now although he used to have it) had provided as good service he would still be with them.

Well if he is no longer with them (i obviously dont know im just speculating from what he has stated) how can he comment on their current service levels?

I have family who have NTL, and i have friends, colleagues etc.... I left NTL because of the service i recieved... my STB freezing, my internet not working etc....

I switched to sky and BT in 1 fell swoop, and i can honestly say i have not had a single problem with either, well actually thats a lie... When i first got Sky, the remote wouldnt command my TV, so i rung them up, waited 5 seconds in the queue, explained the situation and the next day i had a brand new remote delivered to me by courier at no charge, and due to the inconvenience took £5 off my bill....

Now thats what i call service!

[KingPhoenix]

Originally posted by Andre
Good customer service is good customer service Matty-wherever you go, and in whatever industry you are in.

Don't lie to your customers, call them back when you say you will, dont BS them (or tell them to go elsewhere ;) ), don't offer them a substandard product but charge them the same price as people who have the full/working product, and you will have happy customers in any business.

It really isn't rocket science I'm afraid. :shrug:

Exactly :D

[Seb]

Originally posted by matty4donna
why the hell are you with them? ...why are with them? Stop being so bloody stubborn and awkward and just move to PERFECT Sky and BT.


Ah but what would we have to moan, oh sorry i mean discuss about on a fine Wednesday evening??

[matty4donna]

I speak for my mother as well (i have a much better technical sense so any problems that arise with ntl i speak to them for my mum).

I think this site is good (otherwise i would not be here :rolleyes: ) i just think that constantly making ntl: out to be villains and not highlighting their good things is not the right way to go about getting better service! Have you ever tried to help someone or make something better, only to have it thrown back in your face? Because thats what is happening to ntl: at the moment and i just think its unfair.

[Seb]

Originally posted by Andre
As unfair as me paying the same price as a product as yours that doesn't work anywhere near as well as yours?

I totally agree again with you Andre, and look we have managed to get the thread all the way back to the start again!

[matty4donna]

Yes but as i have said this site knows better then most people that it is down to technological barriers why ntl: can't provide your etv. So making news reports that make ntl: out to be victimising their customers because of factors beyond their current control on a site that attracts visitors with not so much knoweldge as other people about telecommunications is wrong. Its not what you are being sold really anyway, you are being sold Digital TV, Telephone and Internet, the rest all being bonus's! :)

[handyman]

righto, in steps handyman,

basically:-
ex C&W has great software running on $hit hardware.
ex NTL has $hit software running on great hardware.

The work to intergrate the 2 networks is well under way.
Duplications have been done away with and software is being modified to run on ex ntl as well, this is not as simple a task as it seems, there are 7 different hardware versions running on ex ntl and the new software has to run smooth on all.

CR3 is coming too ex ntl.

As for the box's that 'die' during software changes we know which ones are going to 'die' and are replacing these and have been for some time. When CR3 launches this will be a very long thought out upgrade and should be a smooth launch.

Regarding bromley getting the multi screen stuff, well why not? The network can handle it so why restrict the service for those people so people on langley dont feel left out. Only the people posting on this forum as a rule even know we have 2 diff networks, most are happy with the service they recieve and dont constantly post that they are hard done too. CR3 is coming, please let us do our jobs and we will deliver.

If you could only see how big a task it is to seemlessly change the o/s in hundreds of thousands of stb you would maybe have some patience. :)

Thank you,
HM

[matty4donna]

Originally posted by handyman
righto, in steps handyman,

basically:-
ex C&W has great software running on $hit hardware.
ex NTL has $hit software running on great hardware.

The work to intergrate the 2 networks is well under way.
Duplications have been done away with and software is being modified to run on ex ntl as well, this is not as simple a task as it seems, there are 7 different hardware versions running on ex ntl and the new software has to run smooth on all.

CR3 is coming too ex ntl.

As for the box's that 'die' during software changes we know which ones are going to 'die' and are replacing these and have been for some time. When CR3 launches this will be a very long thought out upgrade and should be a smooth launch.

Regarding bromley getting the multi screen stuff, well why not? The network can handle it so why restrict the service for those people so people on langley dont feel left out. Only the people posting on this forum as a rule even know we have 2 diff networks, most are happy with the service they recieve and dont constantly post that they are hard done too. CR3 is coming, please let us do our jobs and we will deliver.

If you could only see how big a task it is to seemlessly change the o/s in hundreds of thousands of stb you would maybe have some patience. :)

Thank you,
HM Explains it all. I can understand the amount of work ntl: have to do and that is why i seem to have more patience with ntl: taking more time with one area of the network then others. :)

[handyman]

Originally posted by Andre
*Takes a copy of thread*

Can we hold you to that Marl!? :D

Its mark btw, and yes I and everyone in our office have worked/still working to make sure that as many box's as possible that may cause issues with the download are removed/sorted out.

As you know Andre :rolleyes: I only work in faults, I have very little input in software downloads but I assure you we are doing our best to make this download workl right and work right first time.
An assumption could be made that issues currently affecting us are being held back from resolution as too be included in the CR3 download. Its quite disrupting to do a download so will be done in one go. :)

[Proppinupthebar]

Originally posted by handyman

Regarding bromley getting the multi screen stuff, well why not? The network can handle it so why restrict the service for those people so people on langley dont feel left out. Only the people posting on this forum as a rule even know we have 2 diff networks, most are happy with the service they recieve and dont constantly post that they are hard done too.
Thank you,
HM

The original ntl network can handle it too. In fact all the data is already hitting original ntl boxes, its just the boxes havent got the software on them yet to process it.

Other than that I agree with the rest of your original post Mark.
For the record I also agree that this site seems to be a ntl bashing site, if you post the same question on both sites I will answer on the other.

[handyman]

Originally posted by Andre
How much more time do you want to give them? :eek:


As long as it takes to do the job right.

Do the words "coming soon" mean nothing to you!?

Yes it means its been worked on, and as nothing is really concrete there will not be any dates passed about. After all its a project with no definate end time.

They have had a long time imo, but have chosen to focus on spend the money on just grabbing more and more customers to put their (alerady creaking) network under strain, and have not delivered anywhere near what they said they would-Broadband in London anyone?

:rolleyes: Yes just grabbing customers , ah huh, i hear you.

:rolleyes: alerady creaking? says who?

:rolleyes: london thats miles away :P

[matty4donna]

OK, i have ADSL on a BT line, but my dad cannot get it in herefordshire! Why not? Why does he pay the same line rental but not get the option of ADSL? Because BT have to upgrade all the exchanges in the country which will take some time. Reminds me of another scenario! :)

[handyman]

Originally posted by Proppinupthebar
<snip>

I know that you will be working hard to ensure that the download goes to plan. slipped on the network vs stb thing I knew the answer really I did :)

[KingPhoenix]

Originally posted by matty4donna
OK, i have ADSL on a BT line, but my dad cannot get it in herefordshire! Why not? Why does he pay the same line rental but not get the option of ADSL? Because BT have to upgrade all the exchanges in the country which will take some time. Reminds me of another scenario! :)

Jeeeeeeez

How can you use that as an argument??? ADSL is a paid option.... doesnt come as standard with your line rental...

As andre said....

Exageration (not a good one)

[Proppinupthebar]

Originally posted by handyman
I know that you will be working hard to ensure that the download goes to plan. slipped on the network vs stb thing I knew the answer really I did :)

Guess who will be babysitting the first few downloads :( ;) :D

[matty4donna]

Originally posted by KingPhoenix
Jeeeeeeez

How can you use that as an argument??? ADSL is a paid option.... doesnt come as standard with your line rental...

As andre said....

Exageration (not a good one) whatever you want to think, but then since you are anti-ntl you would be right :rolleyes:

[Stuart]

Originally posted by Proppinupthebar
Guess who will be babysitting the first few downloads :( ;) :D

Good luck!

I suppose somebody has to do it!

[matty4donna]

Originally posted by scastle
Good luck!

I suppose somebody has to do it! could be in need of Mr Muscle - Loves The Jobs You Hate hehehe :D

[willie]

Originally posted by KingPhoenix
Jeeeeeeez

How can you use that as an argument??? ADSL is a paid option.... doesnt come as standard with your line rental...

As andre said....

Exageration (not a good one)
Aye it is a paid option only if your exchange has been upgraded and you live within a certain radius of exchange untill then it is no option.
:wavey: :shrug:

[orangebird]

But I thought that the interactive was free - so therefore you are not paying for something that you are not receiving ?
As for cries of compensation...ffs, get a life. My friend died as a result of (proven) gross negligence by a hospital doctor. That deserved compensation. Chill out and figure what's really important in life.....cos interactoive options are not. :upyours:

[Stuart]

Originally posted by orangebird
But I thought that the interactive was free - so therefore you are not paying for something that you are not receiving ?
As for cries of compensation...ffs, get a life. My friend died as a result of (proven) gross negligence by a hospital doctor. That deserved compensation. Chill out and figure what's really important in life.....cos interactoive options are not. :upyours:

Sorry to hear about your friend OB. Medical Negligence is horrible. My sister nearly died because our GP wouldn't pay for an MRI scan..

As to paying for interactive..

Logically, everyone does pay for it (indirectly), but it is not a separate billed item, so NTL don't charge extra for it.

Also, technically, you could argue that since the BBC provided both Wimbledon and the Open, you pay for it through the Licence Fee, not your NTL subscription.

Hopefully this will all be irrelevant in a couple of months anyway, when NTL get round to downloading the software for the boxes..

BTW OB, apart from the sorry bit at the top, none of this was directed at you..

[rippedoff]

Originally posted by orangebird
But I thought that the interactive was free - so therefore you are not paying for something that you are not receiving ?
As for cries of compensation...ffs, get a life. My friend died as a result of (proven) gross negligence by a hospital doctor. That deserved compensation. Chill out and figure what's really important in life.....cos interactoive options are not. :upyours:

Nothing is free! Certainly not with ntl:. The point being made is ... everyone pays the same for digital tv... but some do not get the same service or availability of enhancements.
It's a bit like say.... you buy a car in Manchester and pay £20,000 for it - it has the lot..... air con etc etc.... But if you lived say in Lambeth, South London, and paid the same, but had no air conditioning, electric windows, power steering, and the engine only went at a tenth of the speed of what you would get if you bought it in Manchester, you wouldn't be too happy if someone told you... Oh.. the big engines are free, and so is the power steering , electric windows etc. etc. - to those most everywhere in the country, but if you happen to live in certain parts of London and still pay the same money... well... tough!
Maybe you should chill out and try and understand what really is ****ing people off about ntl: instead of talking crap in its defence.

:2up:

[SMHarman]

Originally posted by rippedoff
Nothing is free! Certainly not with ntl:. The point being made is ... everyone pays the same for digital tv... but some do not get the same service or availability of enhancements.
It's a bit like say.... you buy a car in Manchester and pay £20,000 for it - it has the lot..... air con etc etc.... But if you lived say in Lambeth, South London, and paid the same, but had no air conditioning, electric windows, power steering, and the engine only went at a tenth of the speed of what you would get if you bought it in Manchester, you wouldn't be too happy if someone told you... Oh.. the big engines are free, and so is the power steering , electric windows etc. etc. - to those most everywhere in the country, but if you happen to live in certain parts of London and still pay the same money... well... tough!
Maybe you should chill out and try and understand what really is ****ing people off about ntl: instead of talking crap in its defence.

:2up:

Like the analogy, but thats not quite true is it.

Broadband is a paid option in Manchester or London (where availible).

If you cannot get Digital, but only analogue you pay less.

So if your on digital and do not have the latest software it is not like saying you don't have aircon power steering a lower powered engine.

You still get the same primary tv content delivered in a virtually identical manner, you just dont get eTV.

More like saying you get climate control on your Manchester car and Air con on your London car.

[mat1t]

Originally posted by KingPhoenix
Jeeeeeeez

How can you use that as an argument??? ADSL is a paid option.... doesnt come as standard with your line rental...

As andre said....

Exageration (not a good one)

Diggin up a reasonably old post here! :)

ADSL does count as part of your line rental, as you are required to have a BT line for it to function properly.

ie you can argue that the cost of an ADSL line is £9.99 (not sure on correct figures) plus the £20 odd that you pay to your ISP.

ADSL is supplied over your copper line, so therefore it can be argued that you pay for it through that!

M@

[SMHarman]

Originally posted by mat1t
Diggin up a reasonably old post here! :)

ADSL does count as part of your line rental, as you are required to have a BT line for it to function properly.

ie you can argue that the cost of an ADSL line is £9.99 (not sure on correct figures) plus the £20 odd that you pay to your ISP.

ADSL is supplied over your copper line, so therefore it can be argued that you pay for it through that!

M@

Call Minder
Call Waiting and all other options work in the same manner.

You do not have to pay for ADSL so it is not part of you BT phone line bill. BT cannot cross subsidise so the phone line bill cannot contribute to the ADSL service.

This is not an argument.:shrug:

NTL can provide all cabled customers with digital tv picures (paid for service one), telephone (paid for service 2)

Some customers can get broadband (paid for service 3) and enhancedTV (no cost service.

BT can provide a phone line to all customers (paid for service) and ADSL to some customers (paid service).

The only thing that might be 'free' is CR3 and that is because they are in the middle of roll out.

[orangebird]

Originally posted by rippedoff
<SNIP>
Maybe you should chill out and try and understand what really is ****ing people off about ntl: instead of talking crap in its defence.

:2up:

I need to chill out??? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:rolleyes:

[th'engineer]

Originally posted by orangebird
I need to chill out??? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:rolleyes:

He has a good point you need to take other peoples views seriously:D

[matty4donna]

Originally posted by KingPhoenix
Jeeeeeeez

How can you use that as an argument??? ADSL is a paid option.... doesnt come as standard with your line rental...

As andre said....

Exageration (not a good one) Im not talking about the fact that ntl: are or are not charging you for interactive, the principle of that point is that BT can take 5 - 15 years upgrading everyones exchange to be ADSL enabled (by which time ADSL will be old hat) WITH massive financial help from the UK goverment yet you won't allow ntl: just a year or two to upgrade your half of the network? Now who is exagerating, expecting ntl: to upgrade a network that covers half of the UK in just a year! :rolleyes:

You wanna talk about old technology, BT were given the option 15 years ago to upgrade their network in preparartion for future high bandwidth services but they never! :mad:

[KingPhoenix]

Originally posted by matty4donna
Im not talking about the fact that ntl: are or are not charging you for interactive, the principle of that point is that BT can take 5 - 15 years upgrading everyones exchange to be ADSL enabled (by which time ADSL will be old hat) WITH massive financial help from the UK goverment yet you won't allow ntl: just a year or two to upgrade your half of the network? Now who is exagerating, expecting ntl: to upgrade a network that covers half of the UK in just a year! :rolleyes:

You wanna talk about old technology, BT were given the option 15 years ago to upgrade their network in preparartion for future high bandwidth services but they never! :mad:

Oh well, like i said in an earlier post. you really should go work for NTL.....

At the age of 17 you have the ability to spout profounded crap oh so well.... keep it up, you never know you may be running NTL in a month or 2 ;) :D

[matty4donna]

Originally posted by KingPhoenix
Oh well, like i said in an earlier post. you really should go work for NTL.....

At the age of 17 you have the ability to spout profounded crap oh so well.... keep it up, you never know you may be running NTL in a month or 2 ;) :D you keep up you crap. For someone who supposedly runs a busines, the fact that you dont know much about well documented recession in the US market and the big slump of the telecommunications industry a few years shows me that maybe you need to go back to school :D :upyours:

[Proppinupthebar]

Originally posted by KingPhoenix
Oh well, like i said in an earlier post. you really should go work for NTL.....

At the age of 17 you have the ability to spout profounded crap oh so well.... keep it up, you never know you may be running NTL in a month or 2 ;) :D

There's another of those blanket comments which offends ntl employee's.

Rapidly losing patience with this site and its one track mind.

[SMHarman]

Originally posted by matty4donna
<SNIP>
WITH massive financial help from the UK goverment yet you won't allow ntl: just a year or two to upgrade your half of the network? Now who is exagerating, expecting ntl: to upgrade a network that covers half of the UK in just a year! :rolleyes:

You wanna talk about old technology, BT were given the option 15 years ago to upgrade their network in preparartion for future high bandwidth services but they never! :mad:

BT gets no financial help from the government that NTL doesn't (ie investment reliefs etc). BT is not a government body and gets no subsidy from the government.

Its a good thing that BT didn't upgrade for high bandwidth 15 years ago. Think how poor that technology would be compared to today. 15 years ago BT did upgrade to digital exchanges and make massive infrastructure improvements over the exchange and trunk network. They have never changed the pair to home though. Think 15 years ago there was no call waiting, caller ID, call minder (voicemail), three way calling, call divert. All these things have come from upgrading to digital exchanges.

In fact I think 15 years ago we were still using pulse dialing over much of the network. Do you remember how long it took to dial numbers with lots of 0's?

[Stuart]

Originally posted by SMHarman
BT gets no financial help from the government that NTL doesn't (ie investment reliefs etc). BT is not a government body and gets no subsidy from the government.

Its a good thing that BT didn't upgrade for high bandwidth 15 years ago. Think how poor that technology would be compared to today. 15 years ago BT did upgrade to digital exchanges and make massive infrastructure improvements over the exchange and trunk network. They have never changed the pair to home though. Think 15 years ago there was no call waiting, caller ID, call minder (voicemail), three way calling, call divert. All these things have come from upgrading to digital exchanges.

In fact I think 15 years ago we were still using pulse dialing over much of the network. Do you remember how long it took to dial numbers with lots of 0's?

BT may not recieve much help now, but they did

BT got a network that was built with taxpayer's money, and large parts of that network were upgraded with digital exchanges before BT was privatised. The post office were upgrading to digital exchanges about 15 years before there telecoms department was split off and privatised. Admittedly, this was mainly around major ciities, and BT have done a lot of work since then.

The various cable companies had protection from competition while installing their own networks (still do to some extent) but I don't think they ever recieved as much help as BT.

Anyway, to bring this back on topic, I thought Proppin' said that the network was ready for e-TV, but they were just waiting for the software download to the boxes?

[SMHarman]

Originally posted by scastle
BT may not recieve much help now, but they did

BT got a network that was built with taxpayer's money, and large parts of that network were upgraded with digital exchanges before BT was privatised. The post office were upgrading to digital exchanges about 15 years before there telecoms department was split off and privatised. Admittedly, this was mainly around major ciities, and BT have done a lot of work since then.

The various cable companies had protection from competition while installing their own networks (still do to some extent) but I don't think they ever recieved as much help as BT.

Anyway, to bring this back on topic, I thought Proppin' said that the network was ready for e-TV, but they were just waiting for the software download to the boxes?

Sorry to take it off topic for a final post, but NTL et als mistake when bidding for franchises was missing the point that the cables had to be burried not strung (like BTs) therefore costing a whole lot more to put in place, thus the infrastructure build was going to pretty much bankrupt any company IMHO.

Most large infrastructure projects are very poor payers for the initial investor. The Channel Tunnel, the Railways, CATV networks, fibre layers. All have a massive future benefit to society, but the people that built them did not do so well.

I'm going to read post 1 again now.

[andygrif]

Originally posted by scastle
BT may not recieve much help now, but they did

BT got a network that was built with taxpayer's money, and large parts of that network were upgraded with digital exchanges before BT was privatised. The post office were upgrading to digital exchanges about 15 years before there telecoms department was split off and privatised.


But what you have to remember, when BT was sold into the private sector, it was (indirectly) the taxpayers that benefitted from the sale of shares, most of this went directly back into goverment coffers.

[Stuart]

Originally posted by andygrif
But what you have to remember, when BT was sold into the private sector, it was (indirectly) the taxpayers that benefitted from the sale of shares, most of this went directly back into goverment coffers.

It did indirectly benefit us, but it could be argued the government sold us something we (indirectly) already owned.. However, that is an argument for another thread.

Originally posted by me

Anyway, to bring this back on topic, I thought Proppin' said that the network was ready for e-TV, but they were just waiting for the software download to the boxes?



Does anyone know of any dates for the updated software?

[andygrif]

Originally posted by scastle
It did indirectly benefit us, but it could be argued the government sold us something we (indirectly) already owned.. However, that is an argument for another thread.



You're right...this could decend to a politics argument...and that will go on forever!!!

[ntluser]

Originally posted by andygrif
You're right...this could decend to a politics argument...and that will go on forever!!!

I think it's important to remember the starting points of all these companies and the amount of time they have had to develop their services.

BT took over the networks of Post Office Telephones, previously supported by taxpayers and inherited a standard system that was in need of development and upgrading, which over time they have done.

Sky set up a standardised system, which once customers had a dish, only had to be maintained and developed.

NTL on the other hand inherited (by takeover) a variety of networks of varying technical standards and in varying states of repair. Unlike Sky, who only have to send their signals through the air to the customer, NTL were required to standardise, maintain, develop and upgrade the fibre-optic networks required to provide their services.

Because of the immense costs involved, NTL is not currently in a financial position to be able to carry out all the work required. In fairness to NTL they have tried to standardise the facilities provided by the Langley and Bromley platforms but provide them in a different technical way.

At present, it's true, that there are things that can be done only on the Bromley platform and others that can only be done by the Langley platform.

Over time, and bear in mind that NTL is relatively young compared to Sky and BT, this situation may change.

[andygrif]

Originally posted by ntluser

NTL on the other hand inherited (by takeover) a variety of networks of varying technical standards and in varying states of repair. Unlike Sky, who only have to send their signals through the air to the customer, NTL were required to standardise, maintain, develop and upgrade the fibre-optic networks required to provide their services.

Because of the immense costs involved, NTL is not currently in a financial position to be able to carry out all the work required. In fairness to NTL they have tried to standardise the facilities provided by the Langley and Bromley platforms but provide them in a different technical way.



No-one forced them to do it. Sure I agree that they have been the victim of any number of poor trading periods, however they know perfectly well how much it would cost to lay cables and how many people they could approach. As a matter of conjecture, it would be easy to argue that becuase the ntl offer was nowhere near as sophisticated at BSkyB's at that time, Sky Digital now has many many more millions of customers.

It is only now that ntl are starting to redress some of the balance, but I think that even they would agree that they are still a couple of years behind the Sky offer.

Over time, and bear in mind that NTL is relatively young compared to Sky and BT, this situation may change.

Not really. The earlier cable companies that I remember were forerunners to Sky. The basic (copper cable) infrastructure was already in place for many years, decades in some cases.

Don't forget also that Sky has spent huge sums of money investing in its uplink facilities, and runs quite a few tv channels too, both of which are overheads that ntl: do not have.

Don't get me wrong, I would like to see the cable service suceed. It has the potential of being a far superiour service to satellite, becuase of the two-way path. We will eventually start getting true video on demand, faster net access, VOIP, video-conferencing and so on. However I do worry that it may be too late for the incumbent.

They will not be lent the amounts of money required to invest in these technologies, given history and present financial position. Without investment in future technologies, as we have already seen, ntl will fail to deliver the subscriber figures to break even. If you don't break even, you're back at square one.

In addition to the above, one of the most important things that have got Sky to where they are today is marketing. They are very good at it. If you are very good at marketing, a lot of people will buy your product. Let's face it, ntl are not very good at marketing either.

[Stuart]

Originally posted by andygrif


Don't forget also that Sky has spent huge sums of money investing in its uplink facilities, and runs quite a few tv channels too, both of which are overheads that ntl: do not have.


I thought Sky's uplinking was done by BT and NTL. I am pretty sure I read on .COM that they don't do their own uplinking..

[SMHarman]

I think you are correct in that BT/NTL do the final transmission to the sat. However that is part of the network infrastructure.

Sky do all the encoding etc of the transmissions to NTL/BT for them to pass onto the uplink. That has had some pretty heavy investment I imagine.

[Stuart]

Originally posted by SMHarman
I think you are correct in that BT/NTL do the final transmission to the sat. However that is part of the network infrastructure.

Sky do all the encoding etc of the transmissions to NTL/BT for them to pass onto the uplink. That has had some pretty heavy investment I imagine.

It's true, Sky have made a huge investment (in fact, they were running at a huge loss for the first few years, and I think, even now are heavily subsidised by other companies in the Murdoch empire).

But, as far as I am aware, Sky only encode their own channels. Having said that, again as far as I am aware, NTL don't encode any.

It is still considerably cheaper for Sky to maintain and improve their services. I think this is partly due to the huge costs of network maintenance, and partly due to the fact the NTL still own all the STBs on their networks (which will need upgrading from time to time).

Sky don't have this problem. I think the bulk of their boxes are owned by the customer, so the customer has to pay to upgrade their box.

Sky are also backed by one of the largest companies of any description in the world (News Corp), so can afford to run at a loss for a while..

[andygrif]

Originally posted by scastle
NTL still own all the STBs on their networks (which will need upgrading from time to time).

Sky don't have this problem. I think the bulk of their boxes are owned by the customer, so the customer has to pay to upgrade their box.



So why didn't ntl go down the route of the Sky model? This would have made sense in retrospect. If the boxes were owned by the customer (competitively priced against Sky's boxes) then this massive investment in the kit would not have been necessary.

Plus ntl was backed by some of the richest people in the world at one point, but the difference is that ntl: didn't deliver, Sky did.

Rupert Murdoch isn't stupid, he will back a long-term investment like anyone else, but if Sky hadn't have worked out he would have cut his losses and run. But it didn't happen, becuase they were sharp. The offered a great package, with what people want to watch, good system (despite it's launch teething trouble on the Sky Digital platform), at a reasonable price, and marketed well. The Sky Digital model is now recognised within the industry as the de facto standard and bechmark by which all other PTV COs are judged.

None of this stuff is rocket science, it's all basic economics and marketing: Consumers aren't stupid, if they think they're getting a better deal somewhere else (even if in the long-run they are not) they will go with it. My concern comes from the fact that the digital PTV market is rapidly approaching its ceiling. Freeview will be de regieur for the future low-end or basic viewer that is un-concerned with movies , sports and the like. So what we are left with, fundamentally, is around 10 million PTV homes, but the cablecos only dominating about 20% of the market combined max.

They are not making enough money with the 20% they can hit, so where will they go from here? As before, they can't offer a better system than Sky right now, that is too much investment. They can market themselves a bit better than they were, but becuase Sky is now a cash rich company, you can be sure they will do it better, more agressively and more often - so it would be best to save the pennies.

But it does seem like a bit of stalemate. As I see it, there are a couple of ways forward:

1. TW & NTL merge? No. Short term solution, leads us back to the same problem. TW & NTL should merge, but jointly under a new owner, possibly Liberty Media.

2. NTL becomes a carraige company only. I haven't thought this through, but just off the top of my head this could work along a similar lines to the local loop unbundling that BT is undergoing. NTL could become a very profitable television and internet carrier, leaving the billing to companies like Sky or MTV or whomever. Perhaps a topic for discussion?