Virgin Media to dump neutrality and target BitTorrent users

[Bonglet]

ok your points
1. People who owned the original copy on whatever format feel ripped off having to buy it again and again and again and think because they once owned it they can do again *shock* most people do not know they cant do this sad but true.

2. would you mind listing the legal download sites you use apart from the popular 2 or 3 music ones like itunes,spotify there is hardly any legal sites for users to choose from really is there?
media companies will not/dont want this if they did they would have learned for the old kazza/napster days years ago and rolled out great sorts of legal consumer services, now years later they still dont have much in place do they.

Thanks for clarifying that i was hysterical But who gives you the right to say it extends past phorm, i put phorm in the title because i am dead against phorm and companies that adopt it, never put anything else there have i.

Like it or not isp's have to realise that a download culture does now exist be it torrent,newsgroups,http,ftp and once these same users cant do what there used to they will leave for the service that does.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by Bonglet

ok your points
1. People who owned the original copy on whatever format feel ripped off having to buy it again and again and again and think because they once owned it they can do again *shock* most people do not know they cant do this sad but true.

Your assumption is false. Everyone that I know that uses illegal sites KNOWS that is illegal, but for 'reason X/Y/Z' does it anyway.

2. would you mind listing the legal download sites you use apart from the popular 2 or 3 music ones like itunes,spotify there is hardly any legal sites for users to choose from really is there?

So the first excuse for illegal downloading was 'I illegally download because there are no legal download sites' and then iTunes and the legal Napster/Rhapsody and others appeared. Then the argument changed to 'I illegally download because of DRM', so the DRM was removed. Now you are saying 'I illegally download because there aren't enough DRM-free legal download sites'?

I have respect for people who say 'I download illegally' without then trying to justify it, even though I may not agree with it. At least they are being honest.

media companies will not/dont want this if they did they would have learned for the old kazza/napster days years ago and rolled out great sorts of legal consumer services, now years later they still dont have much in place do they.

Yes, it has taken them a while and they are paying the price. But considering the movement you have seen in the last year in regards to the legal MP3 download sites and now both the VM and Sky music download services, I think they have realised their mistake

Thanks for clarifying that i was hysterical But who gives you the right to say it extends past phorm, i put phorm in the title because i am dead against phorm and companies that adopt it, never put anything else there have i.

Hysteria is described as 'an unimaginable fear or emotional excess' which seems to accurately describe your posts towards what you *think* VM has/is/will be doing

Like it or not isp's have to realise that a download culture does now exist be it torrent,newsgroups,http,ftp and once these same users cant do what there used to they will leave for the service that does.

They may well, do but that list of ISPs will become smaller and smaller. Once there are enough legal alternatives to illegal downloading, it will because increasingly difficult to justify allowing the illegal downloads to continue.

And as has already been said mutilple times VM do NOT stop people downloading what they like, just how quickly you can get it at times

[Bonglet]

Last time i/my wife/my son/my friend visited a site any site i have never ever seen a warning saying this site is illegal or legal so how can anyone tell the difference more so for someone who has little computer knowledge?.

Who said i do illegal downloads? and where is this legal list of legal services i asked you to provide?.

The music download services that are being launched are a step in the right direction
but would this not end up as being a monopoly service start off selling cheap get the users interested force the lower isp's that cant afford media companies demands out of buisness then get hit with massive price hikes ontop of your premium paying customers?.

A lunatic (colloquially: "looney" or "loon") is a commonly used term for a person who is mentally ill, dangerous, foolish or unpredictable *describes vm better imo.
Sticks and stones.

As i said earlier Isp's will become smaller like you admit as they cannot afford the extortion tactic that will be played out.

And as has been said in multiple threads VM sell a service for xxxlll amount but only provide xx limits.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by Bonglet

Last time i/my wife/my son/my friend visited a site any site i have never ever seen a warning saying this site is illegal or legal so how can anyone tell the difference more so for someone who has little computer knowledge?

Oh so because it's doesn't say it's an illegal site then thats ok?!

Ignorance of the law is not a defence. If you are unsure whether something is legal or not - you shouldn't do it.

Who said i do illegal downloads?

No-one, but you are the one who is arguing that you should be able to download something without paying, because you bought it on one format years ago.

When you buy a video, a CD, a book or anything else that is copyrighted you are buying a licence for that one copy no matter the format - not an indefinate right to it.

Once the copyright expires, then you can do with it what you like. Which is why you have lots of out of copyright books online for anyone to download for free.

and where is this legal list of legal services i asked you to provide?.

For music you yourself provided the list. For TV you can legally watch you have the BBC iPlayer, the ITV Player, 4oD, Demand Five and Sky Anytime. You can also download most PC games these days, as well as console games through the machines themselves.

Films have yet to become a sensible download choice - mainly because the speed of the internet for most people is too slow, so it takes too long. Even then you can do it through the Xbox360, and in the US the PS3 and Netflix.

The music download services that are being launched are a step in the right direction but would this not end up as being a monopoly service start off selling cheap get the users interested force the lower isp's that cant afford media companies demands out of buisness then get hit with massive price hikes ontop of your premium paying customers?.

That is just paranoid thinking for which you have zero proof.

As i said earlier Isp's will become smaller like you admit as they cannot afford the extortion tactic that will be played out.

What extortion tactic? The one where people have to operate within the law?!

And as has been said in multiple threads VM sell a service for xxxlll amount but only provide xx limits.

And for which the terms are made clear. STM hasn't stopped people joining Virgin Media over other companies and it won't in the future.

[Bonglet]

If you were unsure of what or whatnot to use no one would use the net everyone wouldnt use it. its called net neutrality btw, no one should say what is legal or not or then you end up with great firewall of china syndrome.

Yes i argued that you should be able to download something you have already purchased its not my fault that my purchase isnt on the format that is now out of date people feel ripped off.

Well not much of a list then for music people is it really?, music companies are the biggest hypocrites going i could use the same analogy from vinyl music to vhs people have already paid for the viny copy of the music yet the music company expects you to pay for it again, which even though you already own it you cannot play it on a modern hifi system but the modern hi-fi system will let you play mp3's and the like when there are no services to utilise it.

I love iplayer and the like really great services, just needs a few more open thinking services like it, pity when you use it for a while though that companies seem to like capping your download/upload to something not fit for purpouse because you dared to use the services, lagging your nightly gaming session to hell because you watched eastenders.

The same where is your proof as stated by vm when i told them of trials of phorm yeah right, still fits in with pay,pay and pay again mentality of thinking with a bollox to net neutrality thrown in.

No the extortion of the smaller isp's not having the userbase or funds to sustain the music *****'s demands for income.

Terms as clear as mud unfortunatly i've never had an update of my terms sent out apart from my original agreement i signed way back in 99 under telewest.
STM is livable, net neutrality which is what were discusssing isnt though and wont be in the future.

[Griffin]

Get your films & tv programs the old fashioned way but via your pc, there are loads of free programs enabling you to record tv straight to the hdd. Then its a case of another free program to convert/upscale to hdd to get better results than downloading. All you are doing then is the same as anyone who has a vcr or dvd recoreder, are the authorities going to prosecute everyone with a vcr, dvd recorder, cassette recorder, etc

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by Bonglet

If you were unsure of what or whatnot to use no one would use the net everyone wouldnt use it. its called net neutrality btw, no one should say what is legal or not or then you end up with great firewall of china syndrome.

Are you saying that child pornography online is legal because you should treat everything the same?

Or would you judge based on what you know to be legal or illegal?

The same goes for music downloads. If you have to pay for something in a shop, but can download that online for free for no apparent reason, wouldn't you think that something wasn't quite right.

Yes i argued that you should be able to download something you have already purchased its not my fault that my purchase isnt on the format that is now out of date people feel ripped off.

You may feel ripped off, but I don't, nor do I know anyone else that feels that way.

The format argument holds absolutely no water at all. Say you bought a book and then for whatever reason it was damaged or you lost it. Would you think it would be right to just go a take another copy from a shop because you had already bought it once?

Well not much of a list then for music people is it really?

Why does the number of sites matter? Surely it is more about the content that is on them?

, music companies are the biggest hypocrites going i could use the same analogy from vinyl music to vhs people have already paid for the viny copy of the music yet the music company expects you to pay for it again,

No they don't. It is your choice to pay for it again by buying a CD or a DVD.

which even though you already own it you cannot play it on a modern hifi system but the modern hi-fi system will let you play mp3's and the like when there are no services to utilise it.

Why shouldn't they? I could record my own song in MP3 which I would own the copyright to. The ability to play it on a stereo in the same format would be extremely useful.

A format itself is not illegal, be it MP3, Bittorrent or anything else

I love iplayer and the like really great services, just needs a few more open thinking services like it, pity when you use it for a while though that companies seem to like capping your download/upload to something not fit for purpouse because you dared to use the services, lagging your nightly gaming session to hell because you watched eastenders.

Indeed, and there is whole debate needed on that, but again that does not give a reason to use Bittorrents or anything else illegally.

The same where is your proof as stated by vm when i told them of trials of phorm yeah right, still fits in with pay,pay and pay again mentality of thinking with a bollox to net neutrality thrown in.

What trials of Phorm? The only ISP that has done that is BT.

No the extortion of the smaller isp's not having the userbase or funds to sustain the music *****'s demands for income.

Again what demands. At no stage has the music industry ever blamed the ISPs for their users activity, nor has it every requested money of them for the illegal activity.

Saying that, the ISPs must be able to show co-operation where it can be proved that illegal activity has take place.

Terms as clear as mud unfortunatly i've never had an update of my terms sent out apart from my original agreement i signed way back in 99 under telewest.
STM is livable,

As broadband wasn't introduced until 2001, I don't thing those terms would help. But as I've already pointed out in another thread on here, even the original Telewest terms reserved the right the manage the network if needed.

net neutrality which is what were discusssing isnt though and wont be in the future.

The issue with net neutrality is that it costs money. ISPs are continually having to cut costs of services to compete when the costs of providing those services it going up due to the types of services being used.

You cannot have super cheap always unlimited, never managed broadband and sustain it. It is just not technically nor financially possible. If people want non capped/traffic managed or anything eles'd services, then are going to have to pay for them

[Bonglet]

Are you saying that child pornography online is legal because you should treat everything the same?

Or would you judge based on what you know to be legal or illegal?

Child pornography online as you and i know it and should be excluded from search engines searches, with people getting caught all the time for this more and more now (thank god) maybee the search engine e.t.c already flag them up for it.

The same goes for music downloads. If you have to pay for something in a shop, but can download that online for free for no apparent reason, wouldn't you think that something wasn't quite right.
You may feel ripped off, but I don't, nor do I know anyone else that feels that way.

You dont get my point maybe the copyright laws are wrong in this country and should be amended for every new shift made in media technology instead of some outdated 50years crapology.

The format argument holds absolutely no water at all. Say you bought a book and then for whatever reason it was damaged or you lost it. Would you think it would be right to just go a take another copy from a shop because you had already bought it once?

Something damaged or lost by your own negligence is a totally different story to the person who still owns the product but cannot now interact with that format due to a shift in technology.

Why does the number of sites matter? Surely it is more about the content that is on them?

Well the number of sites matter a great deal, those sites are just recent, people have had no sites for a great deal of years but lots of free sites which far outweigh the so called legal ones.

No they don't. It is your choice to pay for it again by buying a CD or a DVD.

Choice by which means? a forced choice like vinyl to cd? or vhs to dvd.

Why shouldn't they? I could record my own song in MP3 which I would own the copyright to. The ability to play it on a stereo in the same format would be extremely useful.

Excellent for the people who have the money and time to invest in doing it, but for the average user who has little time or dosent have the expertise, cash to convert formats pay pay again.

A format itself is not illegal, be it MP3, Bittorrent or anything else

So application throttling/shaping is illegal then?.

What trials of Phorm? The only ISP that has done that is BT.

Lmao sorry but your having a laugh here arent you how come then i saw my connection go to crap and the same dns error as people on the bt trial then just because it didnt have pictures dosent mean it didnt happen.
Quoting from the vm bible of where is your proof? anyhow offtopic.

As broadband wasn't introduced until 2001, I don't thing those terms would help. But as I've already pointed out in another thread on here, even the original Telewest terms reserved the right the manage the network if needed.

The issue with net neutrality is that it costs money. ISPs are continually having to cut costs of services to compete when the costs of providing those services it going up due to the types of services being used.

You cannot have super cheap always unlimited, never managed broadband and sustain it. It is just not technically nor financially possible. If people want non capped/traffic managed or anything eles'd services, then are going to have to pay for them

You Quoted the overall goal spot on specifically if you want non capped/stmd throttled pay us again through the nose services upon services milk the customer dry.
Many people never asked for FREE upgrades to 1-2mb 2-4mb 10mb or 20mb upwards it was a shift by isp's to stay in front of the competition for bragging rights and a change in technology.
If isp's cant afford to provide the service they advertise, then dont sell it dont miselad the customers by selling a product that is not fit for human consumption, all you can eat buffets for £5 then you get there and its a 2 week old sausage roll and a boiled egg.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by Bonglet

Child pornography online as you and i know it and should be excluded from search engines searches, with people getting caught all the time for this more and more now (thank god) maybee the search engine e.t.c already flag them up for it.

So if child pornography - which is illegal gets excluded from the internet, why shouldn't copied music/TV and films - which are also illegal get excluded?

You dont get my point maybe the copyright laws are wrong in this country and should be amended for every new shift made in media technology instead of some outdated 50years crapology

.
Why should they? It is your choice to update your copy be it on DVD/Blu Ray or digital download.

You can still play records from from 70/80 years ago, and in fact people now make USB turntables and USB VCRs so you can copy those formats into digital - where either you own the copyright or it has expired.

Something damaged or lost by your own negligence is a totally different story to the person who still owns the product but cannot now interact with that format due to a shift in technology.

There is no shift. Things stop getting made, but that is completely different.

Just because you can't buy a brand new VCR doesn't mean you can't buy one at all.

In fact look you can still buy a VCR here - it's on Amazon. Hardly an out of the way site, so no need to download films because you will be able to play your VHS tapes

You can also get turntable, tape players and also sorts of other playback equipment as well I bet - so no need to download those either.

For anything new you want to buy, it will be on a format that is easily read, so no need to illegal download there either.

Well the number of sites matter a great deal, those sites are just recent, people have had no sites for a great deal of years but lots of free sites which far outweigh the so called legal ones.

Again you are trying to justify illegal downloading because there aren't enough legal sites?

Do you justify stealing a TV from someones house because there weren't enough shops to buy one from?!

Choice by which means? a forced choice like vinyl to cd? or vhs to dvd.

No once has forced to do any such thing!

Excellent for the people who have the money and time to invest in doing it, but for the average user who has little time or dosent have the expertise, cash to convert formats pay pay again.

Again with the forcing.

So application throttling/shaping is illegal then?.

Why would it be? There no laws against it.

Lmao sorry but your having a laugh here arent you how come then i saw my connection go to crap and the same dns error as people on the bt trial then just because it didnt have pictures dosent mean it didnt happen.
Quoting from the vm bible of where is your proof? anyhow offtopic.

I'm sorry but if you are going to accuse someone of something then you are the one that has to provide the proof. Just going 'I was on a Phorm trial cos I said so' is not enough

You Quoted the overall goal spot on specifically if you want non capped/stmd throttled pay us again through the nose services upon services milk the customer dry.

Yes pay for it, not through the nose but for you own usage.

Why should the internet be any different to gas and electric. There the more you use the more you pay.

Many people never asked for FREE upgrades to 1-2mb 2-4mb 10mb or 20mb upwards it was a shift by isp's to stay in front of the competition for bragging rights and a change in technology.

Of course there is an element to stay ahead. But if they hadn't you would be on here going 'Why don't we get to stay up to date. Other ISPs allow their customers to access the iPlayer but I've only got a 512Kbit line and it doesn't work and now Virgin want me to pay through the nose to upgrade'

If isp's cant afford to provide the service they advertise, then dont sell it dont miselad the customers by selling a product that is not fit for human consumption, all you can eat buffets for £5 then you get there and its a 2 week old sausage roll and a boiled egg.

With your all you can eat buffet analogy, the reason they can do that is people get full, so cannot eat any more and stop eating. So they average out people eat and cover their costs.

With the internet downloads that doesn't happen, so the costs involved just keep on going up to provide more and more space for people to download - but ISPs can't put their costs up because people want cheaper and cheaper services.

[Ignitionnet]

Tad off topic chaps. ISPs throttle BT upstream because it uses a lot of bandwidth, they don't care about the legalities or otherwise as a general rule. Your conversation has been done to death many times in many places.

[BenMcr]

However, if the illegal activity was taken out of the Bittorrents, then the usage of such services would decline to a point where there was less bandwidth being used and less need to shape or blocked

[Bonglet]

And less customers signing up for mega unlimited download speed which you cant use.

[Toto]

At some point has this portion of the thread drifted so far off topic that its starting to send out signal flares?

[broadbandking]

So peeps what you think about Virgin Media to dump neutrality and target BitTorrent users

[BenMcr]

They aren't