Brexit discussion

Originally Posted by Mick

You have a funny view of Democracy - that's not how I see this thread has gone.

The democracy I see is having a vote and then once a vote has taken place, accepting the result, the backbiting, the negative rubbish, the scare tactics, fear mongering is just a feeble attempt by "some" Remainers to overturn that vote, because they cannot accept they lost.

Democracy allows people who lost a vote to continue to express their opinions and to advocate further change.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Sometimes differing views aren't welcome on CF Den

Not sure about that Mr K.

A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic.../english/forum

Originally Posted by Mr K

Sometimes differing views aren't welcome on CF Den

Where haven't you been able to post your "differing views"?

You have a viable post count with ALL your views laid bare - stop posting baseless accusations like the one above.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Mick

You have a funny view of Democracy - that's not how I see this thread has gone.

The democracy I see is having a vote and then once a vote has taken place, accepting the result, the backbiting, the negative rubbish, the scare tactics, fear mongering is just a feeble attempt by "some" Remainers to overturn that vote, because they cannot accept they lost.

It's not a football game Mick, we're all on the same side at the end of the day. We all win or we all lose. Let's not Americanise the country with having to have 'winners' and 'losers'.

---------- Post added at 10:52 ---------- Previous post was at 10:50 ----------

Originally Posted by Mick

Where haven't you been able to post your "differing views"?

You have a viable post count with ALL your views laid bare - stop posting baseless accusations like the one above.

Very often, the response to a differing view has been abuse Mick. Haven't bothered reporting as thought it pointless on here.

Originally Posted by Damien

Democracy allows people who lost a vote to continue to express their opinions and to advocate further change.

As I said, that's not what is happening - not you personally but "some" Remainers are trying to over turn a democratic decision because they do not like what was voted for.

They are free to not accept the result but trying to overturn it, is not acceptable. That is not what I call Democracy.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Mick

You have a funny view of Democracy - that's not how I see this thread has gone.

The democracy I see is having a vote and then once a vote has taken place, accepting the result, the backbiting, the negative rubbish, the scare tactics, fear mongering is just a feeble attempt by "some" Remainers to overturn that vote, because they cannot accept they lost.

l have always accepted democracy as l fully accepted the Brexit vote a long time ago but that does not mean that people should not have a differing opinion on it even if its a opposing view to what someone else's view is as the one thing people should not do is lickspittle to those who supported Brexit be it politicians or the people who voted for Brexit.

Originally Posted by Mr K

Very often, the response to a differing view has been abuse Mick. Haven't bothered reporting as thought it pointless on here.

Where is the abuse...?

If I sent abuse your way, do you think the other mods would sit back and allow that ?

These are Rhetorical questions by the way.

You always attempt to take the piss out of me by posting humorous exchanges, as if you never quite take anything seriously enough. Everything has to be ridiculed, if it is something you do not absolutely agree with.

I said in another thread you post negative crap a lot, which you do - that is an observation, that is NOT abuse, if you consider that to be abusive - I think you need to get out more.

Anyway - we are not doing this little 'throwing accusations around' session.

Back to the topic.

[ianch99]

It may be a surprise to learn that I supported Remain but the last thing I want is the Government to be defeated as a result of House of Lords amendments. The HOL is a totally undemocratic institution and as such should have no place in deciding the Government of this country.

If the Government is to be defeated, it should be through due Parliamentary process in the House of Commons. The HOL is in danger of being Turkeys voting for Christmas.

[Mr K]

Parliament having a 'meaingful vote' shouldn't be up for discussion. If they have votes that aren't meaningful, they're wasting tax payers money.

Anyway, at least there's one Tory mininster prepared to put the good of the country before his own career and party.
https://www.ft.com/content/47ee37da-...d-d8b934ff5ffa

A UK minster has resigned in protest at the government’s handling of Brexit.

Phillip Lee said he was standing down in order to “speak up” for his country.

Writing on Twitter, he said: “I am incredibly sad to have had to announce my resignation as a minister in Her Majesty’s Government so that I can better speak up for my constituents and country over how Brexit is currently being delivered.”

Dr Lee said resigning was a “last resort” that he turned to since “a serious principle is being breached that I would find it hard to live with myself afterwards if I let it pass.”

“If, in the future, I am to look my children in the eye and honestly say that I did my best for them I cannot, in all good conscience, support how our country’s current exit from the EU looks set to be delivered,” he said on Twitter.

The dramatic resignation comes shortly before the UK prime minister faces 48 hours of potentially knife-edge votes in the House of Commons.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Mick

Give up OB - certain individuals on this forum and there is a few - want to see failure or see every negative thing 10 yards down the road.

Who?

---------- Post added at 12:59 ---------- Previous post was at 11:55 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

As I said, Andrew, economic forecasts tend not to reflect the reality. They have been wrong time and time again, as the record shows. And yet you treat these forecasts as if they are indisputable proof!

Too many wrong assumptions are made by those trying to work out the likely consequences of Brexit. Most of them seem only to see disaster when actually this is a wonderful opportunity for us.

Given the incorrect assumptions that were made about what would happen to the economy as soon as the electorate voted for Brexit, I'm rather surprised that you are ignoring that in pursuit of your steadfast, unwavering insistence that post 2019, Britain will fall into abject poverty. The rest of the world survives without the EU, as indeed we used to as well.

This dystopian future you foresee is typical of many visions that novellists have when they write their fantasies about what is to come, and the 'end of the world is nigh' brigade seem to attract an uncanny fascination for some folks. Fortunately, history teaches us to ignore these fanciful notions.

The link you provided was found by Hugh not to support your argument so instead you try and move the debate onto something else entirely. Others can judge what that might mean about the absence of evidence to support your original bold statement.

The chances of economic forecasts being more accurate from skilled professionals working for the British Government are far, far higher than those you and I can conjurte up on the back of a fag packet. It is unfair and slightly arrogant to write off the work of an entire bunch of people in the way you attempt to do.

They are not making incorrect assumptions, they are using the wide range of information they ahve at their disposal and have modelled a range of scenarios. All showed that the UK would perform worse outiside the EU.

Now onto your strawman proposition and ramblings of people apparently forecasting a dystopian future. Humourous stuff yet no one is forecasting abject poverty. What is being forecast is that the UK will perform less well than it would do if the status quo remained.

[Carth]

“I am incredibly sad to have had to announce my resignation as a minister in Her Majesty’s Government so that I can better speak up for my constituents and country over how Brexit is currently being delivered.”

Because not being a minister in the Government gives you more clout?

Come off it . . .

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Carth

Because not being a minister in the Government gives you more clout?

Come off it . . .

I think he means he wouldn't have to lie about the way he thinks Brexit should be deleivered ..

[Carth]

Originally Posted by ianch99

I think he means he wouldn't have to lie about the way he thinks Brexit should be deleivered ..

But, as a politician, he probably feels ok lying about everything else

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Carth

Because not being a minister in the Government gives you more clout?

Come off it . . .

It's like being on a management team. In that situation, you have to spout the management line even if you don't believe it. As soon as you're not, you can be more honest about things.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44446632

Leave.EU led people up the garden path - Arron Banks

Leave.EU, which was backed by then UKIP leader Nigel Farage, lost out to Vote Leave in the battle to become the official Leave campaign in the 2016 EU referendum.

It ran a "disruptive" campaign instead, Mr Banks told the committee, adding: "We were not above using alternative methods to punch home our message or lead people up the garden path if we had to."

Mr Wigmore, Leave.EU's director of communications, said "the piece of advice that we got, right from the beginning, was remember referendums are not about facts, it's about emotion and you have got to tap into that emotion".

He said the campaign had aimed to "make fun" of journalists and his role in it had been that of an "agent provocateur".

Asked what the difference was between provocation and lies, he said: "If you are trying to sell something or put a good case over to somebody you will tell the best story. If that's provocation - or a lie, if you want to call it that, yeah."