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-   -   British soldiers arrested by terror police (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33705359)

Osem 05-09-2017 19:01
Re: British soldiers arrested by terror police
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35915406)
Seems that way. Although that isn't new or outrageous, belonging to group that advocate terrorism/violence has been illegal for a while.
Well if someone belongs to such a group it's probably not going to be a huge step for them to become actively involved in achieving their aims and any illegal means by which they seek to do so.

Damien 05-09-2017 19:09
Re: British soldiers arrested by terror police
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul M (Post 35915407)
I wasnt even aware we had such a law, while I'm sure it has good intentions, I'm not sure I agree with this.
It's how they tackle Islamist terror groups etc. Not actually sure if the law was introduced to tackle the problem we had 10 years back where people could openly support terrorists without much the police could do or from IRA days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35915410)
Well if someone belongs to such a group it's probably not going to be a huge step for them to become actively involved in achieving their aims and any illegal means by which they seek to do so.
It's a difficult one. If this were America I guess they would be legal? Maybe it depends how openly they seek violent solutions. We should be careful that we don't know the precise nature of what these men have been accused of. But like you say how long do you leave it before they've overstepped the line.

Qtx 05-09-2017 19:35
Re: British soldiers arrested by terror police
 
Such scaremongering offences and headlines making it sound like they were plotting a terrorist attack when the reality is they were just members of a group with certain ideals.

Quote:
A statement from the MoD said: "We can confirm that a number of serving members of the Army have been arrested under the Terrorism Act for being associated with a proscribed far right group.
It's black and white they were arrested for being a member of that group.

But the crap before it:
Quote:
Police said the four were arrested "on suspicion of being concerned in the commission, preparation and instigation of acts of terrorism... namely on suspicion of being a member of a proscribed organisation (National Action)".
If these individuals were not concerned in the commission, preparation and instigation of acts of terrorism, why was they arrested under that suspicion?

Alright this mob might have a nasty core compared to most but it's like saying all BNP supporters should be arrested under terrorism charges because of some of the hardcore members views. A few bad eggs in UKIP...arrest them all and call them terrorists in all the headlines.

When you start arresting people willy nilly with terrorist laws claiming they are going to commit offences when it's nothing of the sort, you normalise the word and effect and it begins to mean nothing.

Of course this is going by the stupid wording of the address by the police and given to the media so they can run with their clickbait headlines.

/rant

Damien 05-09-2017 20:22
Re: British soldiers arrested by terror police
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qtx (Post 35915417)
If these individuals were not concerned in the commission, preparation and instigation of acts of terrorism, why was they arrested under that suspicion?
From what I can gather it's just a badly named law that was a far wider range than the title suggests.

Quote:
Alright this mob might have a nasty core compared to most but it's like saying all BNP supporters should be arrested under terrorism charges because of some of the hardcore members views. A few bad eggs in UKIP...arrest them all and call them terrorists in all the headlines.
This isn't a 'few bad eggs' it's the core of their group. Say what you like about UKIP they're not a hardcore white nationalist group. Hugh has already stated some of their ideology. Also unlike the BNP and UKIP it's a designated illegal extremist group.

UKIP would never do any of this:

Quote:
National Action distributed stickers that stated that parts of Liverpool were a "Nazi-controlled zone", and the group also held a number of marches and demonstrations on Armistice Day and Remembrance Sunday proclaiming that "Hitler was right", and after Jo Cox's murder, posted "only 649 MPs to go!" on social media. They have also called for called for graphic and violent attacks on police officers in the UK.

Osem 05-09-2017 20:49
Re: British soldiers arrested by terror police
 
Time will tell what these guys have been up to.

---------- Post added at 20:49 ---------- Previous post was at 20:42 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qtx (Post 35915417)
Such scaremongering offences and headlines making it sound like they were plotting a terrorist attack when the reality is they were just members of a group with certain ideals.



It's black and white they were arrested for being a member of that group.

But the crap before it:


If these individuals were not concerned in the commission, preparation and instigation of acts of terrorism, why was they arrested under that suspicion?

Alright this mob might have a nasty core compared to most but it's like saying all BNP supporters should be arrested under terrorism charges because of some of the hardcore members views. A few bad eggs in UKIP...arrest them all and call them terrorists in all the headlines.

When you start arresting people willy nilly with terrorist laws claiming they are going to commit offences when it's nothing of the sort, you normalise the word and effect and it begins to mean nothing.

Of course this is going by the stupid wording of the address by the police and given to the media so they can run with their clickbait headlines.

/rant
The BNP and UKIP aren't illegal. If these guys were simply members of those parties they wouldn't have been arrested. They've been arrested for being members of an illegal group, nothing else it appears so far.

Qtx 05-09-2017 21:01
Re: British soldiers arrested by terror police
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35915422)
Also unlike the BNP and UKIP it's a designated illegal extremist group.
The slippery slope which always happens means the BNP could land on the list of extremists groups in the future due to a few of its members. Similar groups that popup would get the same designation. It's not hard to see how they might become illegal in the future or if they tried to come in to existence today.


Without the BNP we might not have had UKIP and further down the line a referendum on the EU. So trying to silence and ban groups or parties that have different views is a dangerous thing to do as it can effect politics and the country.


Everyone should be allowed to have their personal views without being arrested for thought crimes. If someone commits a crime, arrest and punish them. Instead we have added thought crime to an existing law just to arrest and silence people.

sollp 05-09-2017 21:02
Re: British soldiers arrested by terror police
 
I wonder how many left wing groups are illegal?

Damien 05-09-2017 21:21
Re: British soldiers arrested by terror police
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollp (Post 35915432)
I wonder how many left wing groups are illegal?
The list is here: https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ganisations--2

I did a search for 'left' because the list was too big and found two but there might be more.

---------- Post added at 21:21 ---------- Previous post was at 21:15 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qtx (Post 35915431)
The slippery slope which always happens means the BNP could land on the list of extremists groups in the future due to a few of its members. Similar groups that popup would get the same designation. It's not hard to see how they might become illegal in the future or if they tried to come in to existence today.


Without the BNP we might not have had UKIP and further down the line a referendum on the EU. So trying to silence and ban groups or parties that have different views is a dangerous thing to do as it can effect politics and the country.
But the BNP and UKIP were not banned. So far the government has not abused it's position in naming this groups and you would hope that any attempt to do so would meet resist by Parliament and the courts.

Yes it can be a slippery slope but a lot of laws work like this because it's a complicated world. There are a lot of things that are simply a matter of scale and the government, police and society find somewhere to draw the line.

1andrew1 05-09-2017 21:25
Re: British soldiers arrested by terror police
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qtx (Post 35915431)
The slippery slope which always happens means the BNP could land on the list of extremists groups in the future due to a few of its members. Similar groups that popup would get the same designation. It's not hard to see how they might become illegal in the future or if they tried to come in to existence today.

Without the BNP we might not have had UKIP and further down the line a referendum on the EU. So trying to silence and ban groups or parties that have different views is a dangerous thing to do as it can effect politics and the country.

Everyone should be allowed to have their personal views without being arrested for thought crimes. If someone commits a crime, arrest and punish them. Instead we have added thought crime to an existing law just to arrest and silence people.
Sorry, I don't see any slippery slope here.
Any civilised society needs to ban groups of people than promote violent acts of terror. Or organisations like Isis would be deemed acceptable.

Paul 05-09-2017 21:29
Re: British soldiers arrested by terror police
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35915437)
Sorry, I don't see any slippery slope here.
You're not looking hard enough then. ;)

1andrew1 05-09-2017 21:47
Re: British soldiers arrested by terror police
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul M (Post 35915438)
You're not looking hard enough then. ;)
I'm not sure how to respond to your constructive post. ;)
We need to be consistent in dealing with all who advocate violence regardless of race, religion or politics. That's not a slippery slope it's sensible.

Paul 06-09-2017 00:08
Re: British soldiers arrested by terror police
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35915440)
We need to be consistent in dealing with all who advocate violence regardless of race, religion or politics.
Which has little to do with a law that can make membership of any organisation an offence - if the powers in control decide to make it so.

Maggy 06-09-2017 09:15
Re: British soldiers arrested by terror police
 
Not sure if we have heard all of the facts yet..

papa smurf 06-09-2017 10:54
Re: British soldiers arrested by terror police
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul M (Post 35915449)
Which has little to do with a law that can make membership of any organisation an offence - if the powers in control decide to make it so.
actions like this only serve to bolster the recruitment drive .

1andrew1 06-09-2017 13:23
Re: British soldiers arrested by terror police
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul M (Post 35915449)
Which has little to do with a law that can make membership of any organisation an offence - if the powers in control decide to make it so.
Presumably there are checks and balances before organisations are added to or removed from the proscribed list?
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ganisations--2

What do you suggest replaces it? A laissez-faire system where people can be members of organisations like Isis is surely unacceptable so the line has to be drawn somewhere.


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