Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
I can't see Hoyle surviving this. By his actions, he looks biased, even if there were nobler intentions. So he's lost his authority in the Commons making him ineffective.
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Who need Sky Comedy when the Commons is setting?
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The mother of all pantomimes.
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Parliament at its worse.
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The sad thing is, it was a performative vote on an issue they hold no sway over, and it had nothing to do with what's happening in Gaza, and everything to do with the internal politics of the Labour party.
Shameful. |
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I don’t have as much political nouse as others on here.
Why is this such a problem ? |
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The established procedure was for the SNP to have a vote on their thing (the embarrassing bit for Labour) and then any subsequent amendments made. Instead, it was hijacked by the Labour Party against the established procedures on frivolous grounds by the Speaker. Labour have had numerous opportunities in Parliament to say they want a ceasefire and declined to use the time allotted to them for this. |
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Cheers !
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All irrelevant twaddle. If any of the rest of us got up and walked out on our jobs.. Load of prima donnas looking for any distraction from the crap job they're not doing.
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Putting aside the apparent fiasco in Parliament could anyone tell me what would happen in Isreal should either the SNP or Labour proposals win votes?
I would think Naff-all. |
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It doesn’t stop many pointless virtue signalling statements or motions, from Government or opposition parties, being made day in and day out in the chamber. Indeed only yesterday Rishi Sunak, Sir Kier and Stephen Flynn all paid tribute to Russian dissident and probable western intelligence asset Alexei Navalny who, despite dying last week, is only marginally less likely to hold public office in the future than he was the week before last. |
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Labour certainly seem to have got up to some Parliamentary skullduggery yesterday but it's hard to feel sorry for the SNP who were playing their own games as well.
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It’s one of biggest global issues at present and one that the SNP disagree fundamentally with the Government. The calendar may have given the SNP some luck. The only games being played were by the Labour Party and the now discredited Speaker. The ability or otherwise of Starmer to have coherence among the members behind him should never be a factor in the Speaker hijacking the Parliamentary timetable under the guise of security threats. The last Labour opposition day was February 6th when they could have devoted time to this but elected not to. |
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https://tass.com/politics/1207373 |
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No other line worth peddling in that story, comrade.
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All three parties were playing politics trying to cause issues for each other. The Tories and SNP were essentially trying to snooker Labour into an awkward position, the speaker bailed them out. |
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The fact it was difficult for Labour is due to Starmer’s lack of backbone on the Israel issue - which has had shadow Ministers resign and was increasingly untenable. His need to qualify every statement to satisfy the pro-Israel lobby put him in that position and no-one else. I agree the Speaker bailed them out however it was entirely improper for him to do so. Would he do the same for Starmer as PM? I suggest we will never find out. |
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It's politics and all the parties play it. The speaker shouldn't have selected Labour's motion but I am not buying the SNP's pearl-clutching here. |
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I’m not convinced a straightforward motion in line with their own stance calling for a ceasefire which the Government and opposition could then vote for or against is “designed” to do anything other than what it said on the tin.
I’m equally unconvinced that your dismissal of objecting to not following established process as “pearl clutching” is motivated by anything other than your own political bias. The SNP aren’t obliged to water their motions down to suit the Labour Party or anyone else. The Speaker had a choice to follow established process or go rogue. He chose the latter. Labour and Hoyle have damaged our democratic institutions for no good reason other than to save Starmer from embarrassment. You might think that’s a worthwhile reason, I however do not. I do agree all parties “play politics” however it was up to Starmer to find a way out within the rules, not to ride roughshod all over them. |
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The real issue is that Starmer interfered with and overtly influenced the supposedly impartial Speaker. Think of the situation in a court case, where either the prosecution or defence did that. If Starmer actually wanted to raise a point, then is should be made in the open and able to be criticised or possibly supported.
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---------- Post added at 08:41 ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 ---------- Quote:
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---------- Post added at 08:49 ---------- Previous post was at 08:42 ---------- I'm frankly sick of the vast majority of all MPs supposedly representing their constituents but enjoying a nice comfy working lifestyle that their constituents would love to be available to them but find their daily circumstances decree otherwise. |
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If you're the third largest party and you genuinely want a motion to pass then you need to build cross-party consensus. The SNP knew, and were told, that a motion that didn't also mention that Israel has a right to defend itself and didn't condemn Hamas violence wasn't going to pass. It was a motion designed to be defeated so they could grandstand after the fact. They even left the chamber for the actual vote! Quote:
You seem to have a level of cynicism you suspend the moment the line being delivered to you is presented as an alternative take to the establishment. Labour/Tories bad, SNP Good. The West bad, Kremlin good. |
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The SNP only stood to gain from labour and indeed the Conservatives not voting for the motion from a political point of view. It’s pretty shoddy using a desperate international situation to further your domestic political ambitions. |
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Whether the SNP motion was credible or otherwise is an irrelevance. 600 MPs could have stood there and voted it down, leaving Stephen Flynn howling into the abyss. And it would have followed the correct process. The SNP had the right to stand there and put forward a motion that the earth is flat, against all credible scientific evidence, should they so wish. The rules were broken to give Starmer, and by proxy Israel, cover and deny the SNP their right to put their motion before Parliamentarians first. The fact that a significant number of Labour MPs, and a small number of Conservatives have publicly said they would have voted for it suggests the accusations are not as incredible as you propose. |
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I get it, you're disappointed with the MPs - all parties and especially the political games they play for no public benefit. But what can be practically done about it? The whole political system with whips, loyalty, etc is a difficult one to break. Unless the nasties trying to usurp democracy eventually gain power. ---------- Post added at 09:54 ---------- Previous post was at 09:51 ---------- Quote:
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It’s clearly giving Israel cover. Rather than discussing how many of our Parliamentarians are accusing them of collective punishment when they bomb hospitals or have snipers gun down children.
Instead we are discussing some relatively frivolous matter while Labour’s mealy mouthed proposal to semi-justify Israeli alleged war crimes went through on the nod following a Government boycott. It makes a mockery of the process. Everyone knows it. |
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The SNP had the Parliamentary right to bring the motion. Doesn't matter whether you agree with it or not. Convention is that if the Government brings an amendment, then no other opposition party amendment can be brought.
Starmer didn't openly bring the amendment, he just discussed it with the Speaker. |
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We have been discussing the Israel/Hamas/Gaza situation through and through for the past months. Now that something new has happened, there is a topic on this new event and it is appropriate to discuss this. |
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*by Statutory Instrument, with no Parliamentary Scrutiny |
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I’m only positing what would the news headlines have been had Hoyle done his job correctly and (in all likelihood) the SNP motion failed. It’d have been how many MPs - specifically Labour MPs - backed it. Some estimates had the number of potential Labour backers at 90. It’d have been how much authority does Starmer have over his party. Is his fence sitting tenable? Etc. The Speaker handed out a big get out of jail free card, at the expense of the SNP and due process. |
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---------- Post added at 13:14 ---------- Previous post was at 13:03 ---------- The Speaker has overstepped the mark and even though there's a mixture of faux outrage and genuine outrage among the MPs, the public must be wondering how hew can retain his impartiality when so blatantly having favoured Labour. It's a pity. On my theme, the baying mob outside Parliament, the genocidal message beamed onto Big Ben, the lame police, they are a sign of another culture attacking and gradually destroying our democracy. The Speaker should have focused on that - inhibition of free expression in Parliament. |
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Opposition day is rarely about the opposition motion getting carried. Motions presented by minorities are by their nature unlikely to succeed. But that’s not the point of them. They are there to give voice to smaller parties and allow them to choose their topic, state their case and expose what they see as weaknesses in the positions of the other parties. They can do this effectively whether or not they win a vote at the end of it.
The conventions are there to protect that process as a whole and Lindsay Hoyle’s failure to trust processes that are bigger than him has been his undoing. His protestations of good intent don’t really stack up against his refusal to take advice, his refusal to ensure his clerks closely monitored events and advise the deputy speaker as she presided, and his inexcusable failure to be in the chamber while the whole debacle unfolded. If this had been a momentary brain fart then there were multiple opportunities during the afternoon to change course but he seems to have decided he was bigger than events and wouldn’t be told. The risk that he will do so again when the chips are down rightly causes some MPs to lose confidence in him. I think he has to go, and within a week he probably will. |
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100% what Chris just said.
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Regardless, I think I need another Gin |
Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
The Speaker will survive , regardless of whether he has the job or not, and still be on quite a good salary too.
Meanwhile back in Gaza, innocent people continue to die. However if political points can be scored in blighty , who cares? |
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Three children murdered the other day, but yes, everyone would rather argue about politics. :( |
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The Speaker bowed to the baying mob, imo. |
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Any suggestions of threats to safety came much, much later. There was no indication in his first statement, nor in correspondence from the clerk to indicate he had raised it with them. He’s made a mess of it and blamed brown people. A tried and tested trope for the British establishment to deploy. |
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The more I think about it he will try to stumble into the next election and Sir Keir hands him a peerage for a job well done.
Grubby. |
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The whole shambles was a political stage show. Which worked. Just think if it had passed , Israel would stopped its actively immediately. Face it the UK thinks it has a role to play in world affairs. Its doesn't, can't even launch a rocket.
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Nobody claims it would have passed. Anyone who believes that is pertinent in any way is absolutely missing the point.
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Let's face it, we can't even manage healthcare for the population. We might get demoted from being a first world country. Maybe Ireland will send some aid if we're lucky... |
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NI is as good as gone, they've seen the light and the way the UK is going. |
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What a short memory I have ,!
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Paisley was a great man. |
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For someone like Hoyle to survive, you need your own competence or someone else's incompetence. Fortunately for Hoyle, Lee Anderson has delivered recently on the incompetence front helping Hoyle out with bags of cover.
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Since he’s doubling down and going back on his word for an emergency debate he’s got to go.
One can only now conclude - if there was ever any doubt - it was about protecting Starmer. |
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He’s still there.
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So is linear television. Both on borrowed time allegedly.
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I bet linear tv lasts longer than the Speaker, and even me ;)
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There will be more chaos when Galloway starts his Gaza nonsense there. ‘I did it for Gaza’ he said. If ever you needed proof that the cultures are incompatible and that Parliament needs to do something about it, the better. How about Parliament being used to solve problems within its proper orbit? |
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You do know that Galloway isn’t a Muslim, don’t you?
If you do, what’s your point? |
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The point I was making is that why is Galloway being in Parliament proof that the cultures are incompatible?
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You know all this anyway. Just annoying forum games from you. |
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-galloway-have And his current Indonesian/Dutch wife is Muslim and they were married in an Islamic ceremony in Amsterdam https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/154666...many-children/ |
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So, what differentiates Labour incompatible culture MPs from Tory incompatible culture MPs - they are all from the same culture? |
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You appear to be saying that all members of a group are equally culpable, but when I point out that some members of that group are Tory MPs, so are they equally culpable, and if not, why not? |
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I think it's amazing that people think there's either too much immigration, too much extremism, both and think the answer is to vote Conservative. :rofl:
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I think the mainstream parties completely misread the feeling in the country, and now it's been proven in Rochdale. Didn't Rishi say the other day that if people were not happy they shouldn't use mob mentality but should use the ballot box? Seems to me that's just what's happened.
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Expect more and more scaremongering and scapegoating. |
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Boris was similarly exposed when he actually got power. Both populists that are only interested in themselves. |
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[ and no, he wasnt on the wrong side of brexit for me, but that doesnt stop him being a complete nob head ]. |
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But is he? Galloway is stoking up, and representing, an eventual existential threat to our culture. Farage is the other bit I highlighted - as you say, with the difference that he wants to preserve our culture. Our culture straddles Remainers and Leavers, Christians and Jews and certain others but not the lot that support Galloway. There is no similarity.. |
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