Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Nice to see you spreading the Party line, tovarisch…

https://tass.com/politics/1207373

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

No other line worth peddling in that story, comrade.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

The game is designing a motion that the Labour leadership can't vote for in the hope their backbenchers would rebel. If they wanted the motion to pass they could have addressed the concerns of the Labour Party and the Lib Dems to come up with a motion that had cross-party appeal. The Lib Dems tried to work with them, but the SNP rejected it.

All three parties were playing politics trying to cause issues for each other. The Tories and SNP were essentially trying to snooker Labour into an awkward position, the speaker bailed them out.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

I think it’s disingenuous to suggest or imply the SNP were gaming the system to make things difficult for Labour.

The fact it was difficult for Labour is due to Starmer’s lack of backbone on the Israel issue - which has had shadow Ministers resign and was increasingly untenable. His need to qualify every statement to satisfy the pro-Israel lobby put him in that position and no-one else.

I agree the Speaker bailed them out however it was entirely improper for him to do so.

Would he do the same for Starmer as PM? I suggest we will never find out.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

I am not saying they were 'gaming' the system. I am saying they designed a motion designed to trip Labour up which is why I don't feel a great deal of sympathy for them that it went wrong.

It was difficult for Labour because Labour wanted to include more onus on the fact that Hamas also have to abide by any ceasefire. If the SNP had included that and taken out of the collective punishment bit then Labour would have voted for the position. The Lib Dems pretty much asked for the same thing and were denied.

It's politics and all the parties play it.

The speaker shouldn't have selected Labour's motion but I am not buying the SNP's pearl-clutching here.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

I’m not convinced a straightforward motion in line with their own stance calling for a ceasefire which the Government and opposition could then vote for or against is “designed” to do anything other than what it said on the tin.

I’m equally unconvinced that your dismissal of objecting to not following established process as “pearl clutching” is motivated by anything other than your own political bias.

The SNP aren’t obliged to water their motions down to suit the Labour Party or anyone else. The Speaker had a choice to follow established process or go rogue. He chose the latter. Labour and Hoyle have damaged our democratic institutions for no good reason other than to save Starmer from embarrassment. You might think that’s a worthwhile reason, I however do not.

I do agree all parties “play politics” however it was up to Starmer to find a way out within the rules, not to ride roughshod all over them.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

The real issue is that Starmer interfered with and overtly influenced the supposedly impartial Speaker. Think of the situation in a court case, where either the prosecution or defence did that. If Starmer actually wanted to raise a point, then is should be made in the open and able to be criticised or possibly supported.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Or at it's best..

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:tu:

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:tu:

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I'm frankly sick of the vast majority of all MPs supposedly representing their constituents but enjoying a nice comfy working lifestyle that their constituents would love to be available to them but find their daily circumstances decree otherwise.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Of course, it is.

If you're the third largest party and you genuinely want a motion to pass then you need to build cross-party consensus. The SNP knew, and were told, that a motion that didn't also mention that Israel has a right to defend itself and didn't condemn Hamas violence wasn't going to pass.

It was a motion designed to be defeated so they could grandstand after the fact.

They even left the chamber for the actual vote!

I agree with you that the Labour motion shouldn't have been selected and Labour were playing politics. I just disagree the SNP had pure intentions.

You seem to have a level of cynicism you suspend the moment the line being delivered to you is presented as an alternative take to the establishment. Labour/Tories bad, SNP Good. The West bad, Kremlin good.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Exactly this. The SNP motion had the term ‘collective punishment’ in it that no serious party of government or potential government could sign up to without some serious strong evidence. Basically, you don’t accuse nation states of war crimes unless you are really sure if you want to be taken seriously as a government.

The SNP only stood to gain from labour and indeed the Conservatives not voting for the motion from a political point of view.

It’s pretty shoddy using a desperate international situation to further your domestic political ambitions.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Red herring alert.

Whether the SNP motion was credible or otherwise is an irrelevance. 600 MPs could have stood there and voted it down, leaving Stephen Flynn howling into the abyss.

And it would have followed the correct process.

The SNP had the right to stand there and put forward a motion that the earth is flat, against all credible scientific evidence, should they so wish.

The rules were broken to give Starmer, and by proxy Israel, cover and deny the SNP their right to put their motion before Parliamentarians first.

The fact that a significant number of Labour MPs, and a small number of Conservatives have publicly said they would have voted for it suggests the accusations are not as incredible as you propose.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

It’s clearly giving Israel cover. Rather than discussing how many of our Parliamentarians are accusing them of collective punishment when they bomb hospitals or have snipers gun down children.

Instead we are discussing some relatively frivolous matter while Labour’s mealy mouthed proposal to semi-justify Israeli alleged war crimes went through on the nod following a Government boycott.

It makes a mockery of the process. Everyone knows it.

Re: Chaos in the Commons. Will the Speaker survive?
 

The SNP had the Parliamentary right to bring the motion. Doesn't matter whether you agree with it or not. Convention is that if the Government brings an amendment, then no other opposition party amendment can be brought.
Starmer didn't openly bring the amendment, he just discussed it with the Speaker.